Does the card refuse to transform as if it didn't have a backside? The words "Transform" aren't actually on meld cards, so this seems plausible if they don't consider melding a form of "Transforming" despite the commonality that they're both double sided cards.
Does the card instantly die as some sort of state based action?
Is the half melded creature just considered in play? Seems awkward but I suppose it's possible. The whole meld mechanic in general is awkward.
I have a similar question. What happens if the meld triggers, but a creature ends up in a graveyard before it resolves? For example, a player has graf rats and midnight scavengers and enters the combat step. The trigger goes on the stack, but then the opponent plays, say, a lightning bolt on the rats. What happens?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Read the cards, guys. You might be supposed how many times your questions can be answered with a careful re-read. If that doesn't work, think about it! Wizards doesn't want to break the game, so of course you can't do something like use omniscience to play a fireball for 9,000 damage.
This response assumes that the player both owned and controlled Graf Rats and Midnight Scavengers at the start of the scenario.
The ability says: "... if you both own and control Graf Rats ...", so it refers to the source of that ability, and therefore last known information is used to determine whether the player both owned and controlled the specified object at the last moment it was on the battlefield (C.R. 112.7a). In this case, assuming Graf Rats has already left the battlefield, Midnight Scavengers will be exiled, but will remain there since Graf Rats wasn't exiled too and Midnight Scavengers alone can't be melded (new C.R. 701.34b).
EDIT: But the player will no longer control Graf Rats when it leaves the battlefield, so in this case, the ability resolves without doing anything (C.R. 608.2a) and Midnight Scavengers won't be exiled.(Though this part of the ability refers to its source, it's only checking information about the source and not making an object do something, so last-known information doesn't apply. Thanks, davidb32, for correcting me.)
On the other hand, if not Graf Rats, but Midnight Scavengers leaves the battlefield, Graf Rats won't be exiled because the player will no longer "... both own and control ... a creature named Midnight Scavengers". (Compare with Helm of Kaldra, which requires you to control Equipment with certain names as the second ability resolves, which may not necessarily include the source of that ability.)
EDIT (Oct. 29): Added rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2021): Struck out certain text.
EDIT (Jul. 11, 2022): Struck out additional text.
This response assumes that the player both owned and controlled Graf Rats and Midnight Scavengers at the start of the scenario.
The ability says: "... if you both own and control Graf Rats ...", so it refers to the source of that ability, and therefore last known information is used to determine whether the player both owned and controlled the specified object at the last moment it was on the battlefield (C.R. 112.7a). In this case, assuming Graf Rats has already left the battlefield, Midnight Scavengers will be exiled, but will remain there since Graf Rats wasn't exiled too and Midnight Scavengers alone can't be melded (C.R. 701.34b).
On the other hand, if not Graf Rats, but Midnight Scavengers leaves the battlefield, Graf Rats won't be exiled because you will no longer "... both own and control ... a creature named Midnight Scavengers." (Compare with Helm of Kaldra, which requires you to control Equipment with certain names as the second ability resolves, and not necessarily the source of that ability.)
Whether you control Graf Rats is not something for which the game looks at last known information to know if it's true. If it's not on the battlefield as the ability resolves, you do not control it. Also, the phrase "if you both own and control..." has both cards as its objects, that you own and control them both must be true as the ability resolves. If you don't control both cards as the ability resolves, it does nothing, no matter which of the two creatures you lost.
EDIT: I can see how you can read 112.7a that way, though, and the Eldritch Moon release notes do not seem to cover this situation one way or the other, which is quite weird.
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
I responded in the another thread about this same issue.
Your understanding of the use of LKI is in grave error.
LKI is never used to determine the game state. (In this case whether you own and control a particular creature) It is used solely to determine the characteristics of a source PERFORMING AN ACTION when that source no longer exists.
Guys , it is quite simple about Brendanzeros's question. Because Graf rats's ability is "Intervening if cluase" triggered ability.
So the ability will check again if you still both own and control Graft rats and Midnight scavengers for ability to resolve. No more specific Rule is need.
Am I right ?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes , I was Rules Advisor.
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).
Guys , it is quite simple about Brendanzeros's question. Because Graf rats's ability is "Intervening if cluase" triggered ability.
So the ability will check again if you still both own and control Graft rats and Midnight scavengers for ability to resolve. No more specific Rule is need.
Am I right ?
Yes you are, it's as I said above and our doubts have been cleared.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've got Hanweir Garrison, and/or Midnight Scavengers out on the battlefield. I cast Moonmist. What the heck happens?
Does the card refuse to transform as if it didn't have a backside? The words "Transform" aren't actually on meld cards, so this seems plausible if they don't consider melding a form of "Transforming" despite the commonality that they're both double sided cards.
Does the card instantly die as some sort of state based action?
Is the half melded creature just considered in play? Seems awkward but I suppose it's possible. The whole meld mechanic in general is awkward.
Or does something else happen?
EDIT (Feb. 24, 2019): Edited.
EDIT (Jul. 11, 2022): Update rule renumberings.
EDIT (Oct. 6, 2022): Edited.
This response assumes that the player both owned and controlled Graf Rats and Midnight Scavengers at the start of the scenario.
The ability says: "... if you both own and control Graf Rats ...", so it refers to the source of that ability,
and therefore last known information is used to determine whether the player both owned and controlled the specified object at the last moment it was on the battlefield (C.R. 112.7a). In this case, assuming Graf Rats has already left the battlefield, Midnight Scavengers will be exiled, but will remain there since Graf Rats wasn't exiled too and Midnight Scavengers alone can't be melded (new C.R. 701.34b).EDIT: But the player will no longer control Graf Rats when it leaves the battlefield
, so in this case, the ability resolves without doing anything (C.R. 608.2a) and Midnight Scavengers won't be exiled.(Though this part of the ability refers to its source, it's only checking information about the source and not making an object do something, so last-known information doesn't apply. Thanks, davidb32, for correcting me.)On the other hand, if not Graf Rats, but Midnight Scavengers leaves the battlefield, Graf Rats won't be exiled because the player will no longer "... both own and control ... a creature named Midnight Scavengers".(Compare with Helm of Kaldra, which requires you to control Equipment with certain names as the second ability resolves, which may not necessarily include the source of that ability.)EDIT (Oct. 29): Added rule citation.
EDIT (Apr. 20, 2021): Struck out certain text.
EDIT (Jul. 11, 2022): Struck out additional text.
EDIT: I can see how you can read 112.7a that way, though, and the Eldritch Moon release notes do not seem to cover this situation one way or the other, which is quite weird.
I responded in the another thread about this same issue.
Your understanding of the use of LKI is in grave error.
LKI is never used to determine the game state. (In this case whether you own and control a particular creature) It is used solely to determine the characteristics of a source PERFORMING AN ACTION when that source no longer exists.
So the ability will check again if you still both own and control Graft rats and Midnight scavengers for ability to resolve. No more specific Rule is need.
Am I right ?
Obviously , English is not my first Language (sorry about that ).