I have a Nahiri, The harbinger with 8 loyalty counters on it.
It's my main phase 1, I activated Nahiri's ultimate by -8, my opponent say in respond to I activate Nahiri's ultimate, he cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri and bounce her 1st. Does Nahiri's ultimate goes on the stack at all? Does Nahiri's ultimate resolves and I able to put a creature from my deck into play?
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First, once an ability is on the stack it is independent of its source. Even if the source is no longer on the battlefield, the ability will still (try to) resolve as normal.
Second, removing loyalty counters from a planeswalker is part of the cost of activating its loyalty ability, which means they are removed by the time you put the ability on the stack. In your example where you activate the -8 Ability on a Nahiri with 8 Loyalty counters, By the time anyone gets priority to respond to the ability Nahiri will already be in the graveyard because she was reduced to 0 loyalty counters.
End Result: you get the full effect of the ultimate ability, Nahiri is in your graveyard, and your opponent doesn't cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri (he untaps the mana and puts the card back in his hand).
Just like any activated ability, once the grenade is thrown getting rid of the thrower doesn't stop you from blowing up.
In this case, Nahiri dies before Echoing Truth can even be cast - but if she was at 9 counters, bouncing her in response to the activated ability doesn't stop it from resolving.
First, once an ability is on the stack it is independent of its source. Even if the source is no longer on the battlefield, the ability will still (try to) resolve as normal.
Second, removing loyalty counters from a planeswalker is part of the cost of activating its loyalty ability, which means they are removed by the time you put the ability on the stack. In your example where you activate the -8 Ability on a Nahiri with 8 Loyalty counters, By the time anyone gets priority to respond to the ability Nahiri will already be in the graveyard because she was reduced to 0 loyalty counters.
End Result: you get the full effect of the ultimate ability, Nahiri is in your graveyard, and your opponent doesn't cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri (he untaps the mana and puts the card back in his hand).
Does the rules allow my opponent to do that? The "opponent say he doesn't want to cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri anymore after already tapped his land for mana, paid and showing echoing truth from his hand, then untapping the mana and puts the card back in his hand" part?
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Well, he can't target Nahiri because she's in the graveyard by the time he casts the spell.
So it's an illegal target - the fix is to rewind before casting the illegal spell.
601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the casting of a spell, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the casting of the spell is illegal; the game returns to the moment before that spell started to be cast (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
Yes because what he did was an illegal action (illegally targeting nahiri when it is no longer on the board) so the game backs up to when the illegal action took place, which is before the spell was cast.
Last question, the thing I don't understand is that how is Nahiri an illegal target in the scenerio.. More of PW going into GY is a state-based action if I'm right, when did this check for state-based action take place? After or before the echoing truth/stack is or while being cleared and spells resolving? If it's before, I agree that echoing truth is targeting an illegal target, but if it's after, wouldn't echoing get resolved but "fizzled" as there's no target but do whatever can be done according to the card effect, and ends with it dropped to the GY and opponent mana remain tapped instead of "rewind time"?
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Last question, the thing I don't understand is that how is Nahiri an illegal target in the scenerio.. More of PW going into GY is a state-based action if I'm right, when did this check for state-based action take place? After or before the echoing truth/stack is or while being cleared and spells resolving?
Right after the player has activated Nahiri's ability, before the other player can even have the chance of playing Echoing Truth in response.
State-Based Actions are checked every time a player would gain priority. First do the SBAs, then the player can use the priority to do something or pass.
State based actions are checked right before any player would receive priority. So after someone does something (like casting a spell, activating an ability, or taking a special action) if they had priority before, and after something finishes resolving. In this case, right after activating Nahiri's loyalty abilility, before even triggers (if any) would be put on the stack.
Last question, the thing I don't understand is that how is Nahiri an illegal target in the scenerio.. More of PW going into GY is a state-based action if I'm right, when did this check for state-based action take place? After or before the echoing truth/stack is or while being cleared and spells resolving? If it's before, I agree that echoing truth is targeting an illegal target, but if it's after, wouldn't echoing get resolved but "fizzled" as there's no target but do whatever can be done according to the card effect, and ends with it dropped to the GY and opponent mana remain tapped instead of "rewind time"?
You activate Nahiri's ability. This means you pay costs. At that time you remove loyalty counters.
Once her ability is activated, SBAs are checked. As a SBA Nahiri is put in the graveyard.
I have another question, scenario is roughly the same, I activated my Nahiri ultimate but my emrakul is in my hand, my opponent did not response with any spells or ability, I cast izzet charm in response to my Nahiri ultimate in an attempt to get emrakul back in the library with its own trigger before the ultimate activated ability resolves to get that same emrakul. Does it work this way?
I have another question, scenario is roughly the same, I activated my Nahiri ultimate but my emrakul is in my hand, my opponent did not response with any spells or ability, I cast izzet charm in response to my Nahiri ultimate in an attempt to get emrakul back in the library with its own trigger before the ultimate activated ability resolves to get that same emrakul. Does it work this way?
For that to work, you need to hold priority after activating Nahiri's ultimate and cast Izzet Charm at that time. If you wait to see if your opponent has responses to the ability, that means you've passed priority, and if they pass too, the ability resolves. A player who activated an ability gets priority first after that to respond to it, if they pass that priority and the other player passes in succession, the topmost object on the stack resolves. You could also simply cast Izzet Charm before activating the ability, but that admittedly plays differently in regards to the responses the opponent may have and which info you give them when.
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So can I just activate Nahiri ultimate and immediately say in response I cast izzet charm? Will this work then to get my desired results?
Yes, provided your opponent doesn't have a response to disrupt that.
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It's my main phase 1, I activated Nahiri's ultimate by -8, my opponent say in respond to I activate Nahiri's ultimate, he cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri and bounce her 1st. Does Nahiri's ultimate goes on the stack at all? Does Nahiri's ultimate resolves and I able to put a creature from my deck into play?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
First, once an ability is on the stack it is independent of its source. Even if the source is no longer on the battlefield, the ability will still (try to) resolve as normal.
Second, removing loyalty counters from a planeswalker is part of the cost of activating its loyalty ability, which means they are removed by the time you put the ability on the stack. In your example where you activate the -8 Ability on a Nahiri with 8 Loyalty counters, By the time anyone gets priority to respond to the ability Nahiri will already be in the graveyard because she was reduced to 0 loyalty counters.
End Result: you get the full effect of the ultimate ability, Nahiri is in your graveyard, and your opponent doesn't cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri (he untaps the mana and puts the card back in his hand).
In this case, Nahiri dies before Echoing Truth can even be cast - but if she was at 9 counters, bouncing her in response to the activated ability doesn't stop it from resolving.
Does the rules allow my opponent to do that? The "opponent say he doesn't want to cast echoing truth targeting Nahiri anymore after already tapped his land for mana, paid and showing echoing truth from his hand, then untapping the mana and puts the card back in his hand" part?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
So it's an illegal target - the fix is to rewind before casting the illegal spell.
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Right after the player has activated Nahiri's ability, before the other player can even have the chance of playing Echoing Truth in response.
State-Based Actions are checked every time a player would gain priority. First do the SBAs, then the player can use the priority to do something or pass.
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You activate Nahiri's ability. This means you pay costs. At that time you remove loyalty counters.
Once her ability is activated, SBAs are checked. As a SBA Nahiri is put in the graveyard.
TappedOut
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TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!