So this is in regards to a game I played on Saturday. I had a side conversation with my opponent afterwards and he seemed pretty upset by it but I'm still not sure I did anything wrong. I am not the most well-versed in tournament rules, I am still learning as I go so I am interested in what a proper ruling would be so I can avoid the situation in the future if needed. I guess to spell the situation out, I have to give a bit of detail as to how the game played out.
I had an early Horizon Canopy against an aggro deck. I played several spells making use of the Canopy throughout the game, making sure to declare that I pay 1 health when I do and just about every time he failed to note the life loss on his notepad. I would correct the life totals as the game proceeded on and we got to the point where he had an 8/8 Death's Shadow and it was his draw.
I had myself at 8 with no eligible blockers but I could definitely kill him nex turn. The relevant part is that he had me at 9 due to what I can only assume is yet another missed notation. He says "so you're at 9... I guess if this is a fetch, I win" drew his card "nope, not a fetch" and scooped.
As he said this, I looked at my health again and definitely realized I was at 8 and here's the area where I'm not sure if I cheated or not.
I understand that I am obligated to correct the board state and life totals etc. when asked for clarification by my opponent, but in this case the direct question was never asked and I just opted not to provide better information. On the personal end, I was a little frustrated having corrected him several times during the game, but I won't stand behind that as an excuse. So... did I cheat?
If he conceded BEFORE you had a chance to correct him then it is his error in scooping so fast and basically killing himself without the correct information. As for official rules, not sure, but of course player etiquette can sometimes get a bit murky in a highly competitive setting. If you intentionally withheld your life total from him, in hopes of winning, then that definitely is not very cool, but it's also lame when people rage quit and scoop suddenly.
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There was plenty of time for me to interject but not so much that it was painfully silent like he was expecting an answer. It's definitely a grey area and I know there is plenty of argument either way on proper player etiquette etc. There was definitely a moment during all of this where I thought "well if he's going to scoop I'm not going to stop him" before he got to scooping.
And from his side of the table, it really shouldn't have mattered. If you're scooping anyway, at least get the opponent down to "1" and now you have a real argument for having legitimately won that game as you can't really concede once it's already over, and by all definitions in the rules, it would have indeed been over with him the victor had he done 8 damage to me.
Millions of different ways to handle the situation better for sure, but those things didn't happen and what I did was shady either way, I have already come to terms with that. But if we're talking about better ways to handle it, what would a judge have ruled if my opponent had called a judge on me? Is it one of those things that are grey enough that the judge basically just rules with his gut or am I missing a rule that puts me clearly in the wrong here?
I don't want to come off as argumentative, I'm just looking for a legit answer, should I ask some of the local judges here how I could have handled the situation better?
Important part is you dont have to "help" your opponent.
You still have to properly communicate , and the usual way is to clearly call out any life point changes.
So if i fetch and i call -1 life (or the actual life i go to) and note it, while they DONT , its there problem. As long as i have the correct life points for me. If i call a life total they dont have, they point it out right there and no problems will ever come up.
You are not allowed to lie about the game state. However you can just say nothing and if they write down the wrong life for "whatever" reason, its there own fault, as long as you can properly answer if they ask what your life total is.
The question gets down to what he did say at that point:
"He says "so you're at 9... I guess if this is a fetch, I win"
Interesting part is that you choose to not answer.
At that point you notice your life totals are different and you have to say so:
2.14
Life Totals
At the start of a match, each player must indicate how he or she will keep track of his or her life total (including number of poison counters)
. This method must be visible to both players during the match. A shared method is acceptable as long as all players in the match have access to it.
A change in a player’s life total should be accompanied by a verbal announcement by that player of the new life total. If a player notices a discrepancy in a recorded or announced life total, he or she is expected to point it out as soon as the discrepancy is noticed.
Not doing so would at least be a warning to stay more focused and communicate life total changes and discrepancies. In case you did it on purpose, its indeed cheating and you shouldnt do that to try to gain an advantage.
Beside that: Communicate better and call a judge if it doesnt work out
However as your opponent missed your life total change that often, even with you telling him, you "could" (and should) have called a judge and told them about it, as your opponent is just as responsible as you are to keep the life totals clean.
So the biggest lesson, call a judge early if something is suspicious or tedious and if in doubt for a rule during the tournament also call a judge and not make a little judgement call on your own (which more often than not is cheating simply because they dont know the rules which they are supposed to know [or ask about them] at higher level events).
At Comp+ REL, for a life total, yes, it's a game loss if you notice, but legitimately believe that it's ok not to say anything about the discrepancy. It's a disqualification for cheating if you know better. The judge will determine which is the case here.
Quote from MTR2.14 »
If a player notices a discrepancy in a recorded or announced life total, he or she is expected to point it out as soon as the discrepancy is noticed.
Just for the sake of arguing - but the opponent kept putting down the wrong life totals, even after being told repeatedly. Then what?
If nothing happens, then what stops me from putting down the wrong life totals "by accident" and then getting my opponent DQ'd because of this?
Ok I think that answers it adequately for me. I WAS obligated to point out the discrepancy and should have lost that game.
The bigger concern for me personally is the guy is local and I don't want him thinking I purposely scummed hit out of a game. I'm all for competitive sport, but I like to keep it honest and having been on the other side of similar issues like this I do my best to directly ask my opponent to clarify important game states like that with me.
I should have said something and will in the future. Thanks!
Just for the sake of arguing - but the opponent kept putting down the wrong life totals, even after being told repeatedly. Then what?
I think TheOnlyOne652089 sufficiently answers the question. The 2nd or 3rd time I noticed (I want to say it happened 4 times during the game) I should call the judge just to note that my opponent is failing to correctly follow the state of the game even when I am verbalizing it.
I would notice this when I would clarify life totals before doing something relevant like "I have myself at 12 and you at 14" and he would respond with "12?" and I would point to the tapped Horizon Canopy and say "you probably didn't note it down when I paid life there".
I can't speak for both sides of the table and for all I know, he never heard me saying "and paying 1 life for..."
We both should have called a judge earlier since we were having issues with communication long before it got to the point of determining the match.
If this situation occurs, in my experience the best course of action is to call a judge after there has been several discrepancies as it could be turned against you. If your opponent repeatedly cannot keep track of life totals correctly, call a judge.
Although they may mean well or be accidental, the problem stems when they purposefully misrepresent the life totals to report YOU as not keeping track of the life totals and announcing the discrepancies. Whereas he could say "if it's a fetch I can deal 9 damage and get you to 0", if you don't correct it, you may get a warning/DQ'd because you didn't correct him and he may use that to get you warned.
I make it a rule of mine that if my opponent misrepresents life totals (even by accident) during an REL tournament, I correct him/her and state that if this repeats I will call a judge to prevent cheating or accidents in the future. Afterwards, suddenly, nobody has any issues with life totals being miscounted.
Now a side question similar to this situation to a judge:
if my opponent makes that same statement, can I protect myself by saying "I cannot help you or give you hints as to how you should play to beat me."?
Sorry for hijacking the situation, but this is along the same lines. Are you expected to remind your opponent of continuous effects in play, like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth?
Do I have to announce it clearly that "hey, I'm going to play this now, so all your lands can tap for black." And if they later forget that they can generate black mana, do I need to remind them?
Sorry for hijacking the situation, but this is along the same lines. Are you expected to remind your opponent of continuous effects in play, like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth?
Do I have to announce it clearly that "hey, I'm going to play this now, so all your lands can tap for black." And if they later forget that they can generate black mana, do I need to remind them?
The characteristics of an object (including types and abilities) are "derived information" at Competitive and Professional REL, but "free information" at Regular REL (FNM, Prerelease, Game Day, etc.). You're never required to take the initiative to explain every little thing and you're never required to give your opponent advice on how to play correctly, even if it has to do with free information. If your opponent asks you a question about free information you have to answer honestly and reasonably completely (i.e. enough to properly answer the question).
I had an early Horizon Canopy against an aggro deck. I played several spells making use of the Canopy throughout the game, making sure to declare that I pay 1 health when I do and just about every time he failed to note the life loss on his notepad. I would correct the life totals as the game proceeded on and we got to the point where he had an 8/8 Death's Shadow and it was his draw.
I had myself at 8 with no eligible blockers but I could definitely kill him nex turn. The relevant part is that he had me at 9 due to what I can only assume is yet another missed notation. He says "so you're at 9... I guess if this is a fetch, I win" drew his card "nope, not a fetch" and scooped.
As he said this, I looked at my health again and definitely realized I was at 8 and here's the area where I'm not sure if I cheated or not.
I understand that I am obligated to correct the board state and life totals etc. when asked for clarification by my opponent, but in this case the direct question was never asked and I just opted not to provide better information. On the personal end, I was a little frustrated having corrected him several times during the game, but I won't stand behind that as an excuse. So... did I cheat?
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And from his side of the table, it really shouldn't have mattered. If you're scooping anyway, at least get the opponent down to "1" and now you have a real argument for having legitimately won that game as you can't really concede once it's already over, and by all definitions in the rules, it would have indeed been over with him the victor had he done 8 damage to me.
Millions of different ways to handle the situation better for sure, but those things didn't happen and what I did was shady either way, I have already come to terms with that. But if we're talking about better ways to handle it, what would a judge have ruled if my opponent had called a judge on me? Is it one of those things that are grey enough that the judge basically just rules with his gut or am I missing a rule that puts me clearly in the wrong here?
I don't want to come off as argumentative, I'm just looking for a legit answer, should I ask some of the local judges here how I could have handled the situation better?
You still have to properly communicate , and the usual way is to clearly call out any life point changes.
So if i fetch and i call -1 life (or the actual life i go to) and note it, while they DONT , its there problem. As long as i have the correct life points for me. If i call a life total they dont have, they point it out right there and no problems will ever come up.
You are not allowed to lie about the game state. However you can just say nothing and if they write down the wrong life for "whatever" reason, its there own fault, as long as you can properly answer if they ask what your life total is.
The question gets down to what he did say at that point:
"He says "so you're at 9... I guess if this is a fetch, I win"
Interesting part is that you choose to not answer.
At that point you notice your life totals are different and you have to say so:
Not doing so would at least be a warning to stay more focused and communicate life total changes and discrepancies. In case you did it on purpose, its indeed cheating and you shouldnt do that to try to gain an advantage.
Beside that: Communicate better and call a judge if it doesnt work out
However as your opponent missed your life total change that often, even with you telling him, you "could" (and should) have called a judge and told them about it, as your opponent is just as responsible as you are to keep the life totals clean.
So the biggest lesson, call a judge early if something is suspicious or tedious and if in doubt for a rule during the tournament also call a judge and not make a little judgement call on your own (which more often than not is cheating simply because they dont know the rules which they are supposed to know [or ask about them] at higher level events).
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Just for the sake of arguing - but the opponent kept putting down the wrong life totals, even after being told repeatedly. Then what?
If nothing happens, then what stops me from putting down the wrong life totals "by accident" and then getting my opponent DQ'd because of this?
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The bigger concern for me personally is the guy is local and I don't want him thinking I purposely scummed hit out of a game. I'm all for competitive sport, but I like to keep it honest and having been on the other side of similar issues like this I do my best to directly ask my opponent to clarify important game states like that with me.
I should have said something and will in the future. Thanks!
I think TheOnlyOne652089 sufficiently answers the question. The 2nd or 3rd time I noticed (I want to say it happened 4 times during the game) I should call the judge just to note that my opponent is failing to correctly follow the state of the game even when I am verbalizing it.
I would notice this when I would clarify life totals before doing something relevant like "I have myself at 12 and you at 14" and he would respond with "12?" and I would point to the tapped Horizon Canopy and say "you probably didn't note it down when I paid life there".
I can't speak for both sides of the table and for all I know, he never heard me saying "and paying 1 life for..."
We both should have called a judge earlier since we were having issues with communication long before it got to the point of determining the match.
Although they may mean well or be accidental, the problem stems when they purposefully misrepresent the life totals to report YOU as not keeping track of the life totals and announcing the discrepancies. Whereas he could say "if it's a fetch I can deal 9 damage and get you to 0", if you don't correct it, you may get a warning/DQ'd because you didn't correct him and he may use that to get you warned.
I make it a rule of mine that if my opponent misrepresents life totals (even by accident) during an REL tournament, I correct him/her and state that if this repeats I will call a judge to prevent cheating or accidents in the future. Afterwards, suddenly, nobody has any issues with life totals being miscounted.
Now a side question similar to this situation to a judge:
if my opponent makes that same statement, can I protect myself by saying "I cannot help you or give you hints as to how you should play to beat me."?
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Do I have to announce it clearly that "hey, I'm going to play this now, so all your lands can tap for black." And if they later forget that they can generate black mana, do I need to remind them?
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