I have a question about how a card like Heartless Summoning would work with Kozilek, the Great Distortion. My current feeling is that because Heartless Summoning reduce the cost by two colourless, and that this could account for Kozilek'sCC requirement. However, while that's what I think, it seems strange.
Any insight would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time, and for your consideration.
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WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
Heartless Summoning will not reduce the CC portion of Kozilek's cost. Only the generic 8 can be reduced by Heartless Summoning. Kozilek will cost 6CC with Heartless Summoning on the field.
1 does not equal C. Any type of mana can be used to satisfy 1, but only colorless mana can be used for C. If you look at gatherer wizards has errata'd most lands that currently produce 1 (colorless mana) to the updated symbol C.
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Thanks for the prompt and informative response. It was, in fact, because they haven't yet errata'd all the appropriate cards that I was unsure. My thinking of course being that Heartless Summoning says reduce the cost by 2 colourless which, while one would be inclined to assume means, more specifically, the generic cost, could also fulfill the more particular part. The fact that the only ruling on Gatherer says it doesn't reduce coloured costs, and C isn't coloured, wasn't helping me. Anyhow, thanks again for the help.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A bad arrangement is better than a process
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
While C is not colored, you should treat it as a color in regard to cost reduction effects, makes it a bit easier to understand.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
Vorthospike,
I am, of course, aware of the difference. However, prior to this set, that distinction was seldom (never, even?) relevant. Never before, as far as I can think of - I'm certainly not all knowing, though, and won't do a gatherer search for just that - did a card specify that the source of the mana be colourless, so I hope you can see how that misinterpretation of the text might happen. As far as semantics go, "reduce a specifically non-coloured portion of the cost" is pretty close to "reduce the colourless portion of the cost"; they're obviously different but non-coloured and colourless are very close in meaning. I do, nonetheless, acknowledge that it was not the most precise choice of words. Alas, such is the nature of an ever evolving game. I hope that I haven't come across as rude, or ungrateful, I am simply trying to communicate my logic that led to the question as clearly as possible. Thank you, however, for taking the time to consider the question and leave a response.
Ryperior,
That was just unnecessary. All of that was already concluded. Still, I can understand the sentiment of wanting to contribute, and I did say that all contributions were welcome, so thank you for your response to my question. A word of advice though, take notes on the explanations provided by Lil_Bolas; even without citing a particular rules passage, they managed to convey a sense of why. This is better than simply showing an answer, as it helps the asker to solve future problems on their own. I wish you a good evening, and thank you for taking the time to respond.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A bad arrangement is better than a process
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
As far as semantics go, "reduce a specifically non-coloured portion of the cost" is pretty close to "reduce the colourless portion of the cost"; they're obviously different but non-coloured and colourless are very close in meaning.
"Reduce the colorless portion of the cost" has never been technically a correct way to describe the interaction, but prior to OGW and the use of C in costs it has always been close enough to work with for functional purposes. Now it isn't. That's pretty much the only thing that has changed.
I have a question about how a card like Heartless Summoning would work with Kozilek, the Great Distortion. My current feeling is that because Heartless Summoning reduce the cost by two colourless, and that this could account for Kozilek's CC requirement. However, while that's what I think, it seems strange.
Any insight would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time, and for your consideration.
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW
WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW
WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW
RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR
UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU
BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB
WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW
RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR
BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB
RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR
WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
1 does not equal C. Any type of mana can be used to satisfy 1, but only colorless mana can be used for C. If you look at gatherer wizards has errata'd most lands that currently produce 1 (colorless mana) to the updated symbol C.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW
WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW
WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW
RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR
UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU
BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB
WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW
RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR
BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB
RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR
WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Well, anyways, thanks for your help.
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW
WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW
WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW
RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR
UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU
BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB
WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW
RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR
BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB
RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR
WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
No, it says to reduce the cost by two generic mana. This is a distinction that has always existed its just that C mana highlight the difference.
Only 21 gets touched by it
So it's 8 so gets reduce to only 6
I am, of course, aware of the difference. However, prior to this set, that distinction was seldom (never, even?) relevant. Never before, as far as I can think of - I'm certainly not all knowing, though, and won't do a gatherer search for just that - did a card specify that the source of the mana be colourless, so I hope you can see how that misinterpretation of the text might happen. As far as semantics go, "reduce a specifically non-coloured portion of the cost" is pretty close to "reduce the colourless portion of the cost"; they're obviously different but non-coloured and colourless are very close in meaning. I do, nonetheless, acknowledge that it was not the most precise choice of words. Alas, such is the nature of an ever evolving game. I hope that I haven't come across as rude, or ungrateful, I am simply trying to communicate my logic that led to the question as clearly as possible. Thank you, however, for taking the time to consider the question and leave a response.
Ryperior,
That was just unnecessary. All of that was already concluded. Still, I can understand the sentiment of wanting to contribute, and I did say that all contributions were welcome, so thank you for your response to my question. A word of advice though, take notes on the explanations provided by Lil_Bolas; even without citing a particular rules passage, they managed to convey a sense of why. This is better than simply showing an answer, as it helps the asker to solve future problems on their own. I wish you a good evening, and thank you for taking the time to respond.
WUBRGHorde of Notions, uh... elementals tribalGRBUW
WBTeysa, Envoy of Ghosts, the Debt Collector BW
WRGisela, Blade of Goldnight, Burninating in the GoldnightRW
RGBorborymos, Enraged Throws some L's on That BoardGR
UBVela, Night-Clad and FaeriesBU
BURNekusar, the Mindrazer Wheeling and DealingRUB
WGChorus of the Conclave, With a Dash of ElfballGW
RBRakdos the Defiler, Straight Up InsanityBR
BGSisters of Stone Death, Theft and PoliticsGB
RUThe Locust God, Swarms of TokensUR
WUBDromar, the Banisher - Spirit/Arcane TribalBUW
No it doesn't
The generic mana gets reduced by 2
C does not get reduced
Kozilek, the great Distortion is 8CCso with Heartless Summoning it only cost 6CC
Well true
But I consider all reduce by 2 generic mana
I feel like it won't work onC
They aren't talking about the ruling. It is already confirmed that cost reduction will reduce generic mana only.
They are saying the forum icon on mouseover is still stating that 2 is colorless when it is in fact generic
Yea I know
It's generic mana focused only.