Goblin Dark-Dwellers
{3}{R}{R}
Creature — Goblin
4/4
Menace
When Goblin Dark-Dwellers enters the battlefield, you may cast target instant or sorcery card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard without paying its mana cost. If that card would be put into your graveyard this turn, exile it instead.
You cast the card during the resolution of the enters-the-battlefield ability, not later in the turn. If it’s a sorcery card, ignore the timing restrictions based on it being a sorcery card. Other timing restrictions, such as “Cast [this card] only during combat,” must be followed.
So why do these other restrictions still apply to the card cast by GDD? I understand some cards would make no sense if cast outside of combat, but I'd expect their effects to simply become innocuous in most cases. I.e. cards like Mirror Match would basically do nothing outside of combat since there are no attacking creatures (yes, I know Mirror Match can't be cast by GDD).
Hedron Alignment
{2}{U}
Enchantment
Hexproof
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may reveal your hand. If you do, you win the game if you own a card named Hedron Alignment in exile, in your hand, in your graveyard, and on the battlefield.
{1}{U}: Scry 1.
The Hedron Alignment in exile must be face up. If it’s face down, it won’t count, even if you are allowed to look at it.
So in my pov the ruling stating that even if you have this card on your exile, if it is face-down it will not count, seems contradictory to the card's effect. Why can you not just reveal it from exile, like you reveal the one on your hand? Why doesn't the card itself state then that it must be face-up in exile for the trigger to occur? And if for some very weird reason this becomes a morphed creature and is face-down in the battlefield, what then?
I understand these are not very relevant concerns most of the time, I'm just curious.
The answer to both your questions is that the rules at a heart are permissive not restrictive, they tell you what you can do not what you can't.
The ability on Goblin Dark-Dwellers gives you permission to cast a spell when you normally would not be able to do so but does not remove any restrictions so they must still apply.
Likewise with Hedron Alignment unless the ablity that put it in exile facedown allows you to turn it face up it is going to sit in there with no name, mana cost or abilities regardless of what you phyiscally do with the card.
Private Mod Note
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
A406.3. Exiled cards are, by default, kept face up and may be examined by any player at any time. Cards
“exiled face down” can’t be examined by any player except when instructions allow it. However,
once a player is allowed to look at a card exiled face down, that player may continue to look at that
card as long as it remains exiled, even if the instruction allowing the player to do so no longer
applies. A card exiled face down has no characteristics, but the spell or ability that exiled it may
allow it to be played from exile. Unless that card is being cast face down (see rule 707.4), the card
is turned face up just before the player announces that he or she is playing the card (see rule 601.2).
The bolded part is why a face down exiled Hedron Alignment will not count. It's technically not a Hedron Alignment, it's just a card with no characteristics (including name).
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Level 2 Magic Judge
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
the underlying principle in Magic is that to do anything:
1) you must have permission (typically by the rules or an effect) AND
2) there must not be a restriction interdicting it.
The ruling is just re-affirming the second component of this principle.
Ah, good to know there was something like this in place. Thanks for the answers guys
Who does Fall of the Titans and Kozilek have contradictions in their statements of CMC of X spells?
They do not.
The X value in a mana cost is treated as equal to 0 everywhere except The Stack where it is equal to the amount of mana paid to cast it the value chosen for X.
What you end up actually paying for the spell is irrelevant. You choose the value for X when you cast the spell, and then treat all Xs on the card as the chosen value while the spell is on the stack.
Who does Fall of the Titans and Kozilek have contradictions in their statements of CMC of X spells?
They do not.
The X value in a mana cost is treated as equal to 0 everywhere except The Stack where it is equal to the amount of mana paid to cast it the value chosen for X.
What you end up actually paying for the spell is irrelevant. You choose the value for X when you cast the spell, and then treat all Xs on the card as the chosen value while the spell is on the stack.
Hold on, so is the CMC of an X spell determined by what you payed for it?
Does an Endless One cast for X=5 have a CMC of 5 or 0? Can it be countered by Horribly Awry, for example?
Hold on, so is the CMC of an X spell determined by what you payed for it?
Does an Endless One cast for X=5 have a CMC of 5 or 0? Can it be countered by Horribly Awry, for example?
The value for X of a spell is NOT determined by what you pay. What you pay is determned by your choice for X when you cast the spell.
But other than that, yes, If you cast an Endless One with X=5, then Horribly Awry can't counter (or even target) it, since the CMC is 5.
I had a question regarding Goblin Dark-Dwellers and being able to cast cards like Living End, which have no mana cost. Would it interact as any other sorcery/instant CMC <=3?
Public Mod Note
(MadMageQc):
Warning issued for hijacking an old thread to ask a new question.
Yes. Every object in the game has a converted mana cost, though many don't have a mana cost. An object without a mana cost has a converted mana cost of 0. 0<3, so you can target Living End in your graveyard with GDD's trigger. Since that trgger also imposes an alternative cost to cast the card, it circumvents the nonexisting mana cost, which normally prohibit you from casting the card (nonexisting costs can't be paid).
UnbrokenSarkhanlz should have made a new thread rather than reviving this one. He was answered and that's good, but I'm locking the thread now .
-MadMage
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
So why do these other restrictions still apply to the card cast by GDD? I understand some cards would make no sense if cast outside of combat, but I'd expect their effects to simply become innocuous in most cases. I.e. cards like Mirror Match would basically do nothing outside of combat since there are no attacking creatures (yes, I know Mirror Match can't be cast by GDD).
Hedron Alignment
So in my pov the ruling stating that even if you have this card on your exile, if it is face-down it will not count, seems contradictory to the card's effect. Why can you not just reveal it from exile, like you reveal the one on your hand? Why doesn't the card itself state then that it must be face-up in exile for the trigger to occur? And if for some very weird reason this becomes a morphed creature and is face-down in the battlefield, what then?
I understand these are not very relevant concerns most of the time, I'm just curious.
The ability on Goblin Dark-Dwellers gives you permission to cast a spell when you normally would not be able to do so but does not remove any restrictions so they must still apply.
Likewise with Hedron Alignment unless the ablity that put it in exile facedown allows you to turn it face up it is going to sit in there with no name, mana cost or abilities regardless of what you phyiscally do with the card.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
“exiled face down” can’t be examined by any player except when instructions allow it. However,
once a player is allowed to look at a card exiled face down, that player may continue to look at that
card as long as it remains exiled, even if the instruction allowing the player to do so no longer
applies. A card exiled face down has no characteristics, but the spell or ability that exiled it may
allow it to be played from exile. Unless that card is being cast face down (see rule 707.4), the card
is turned face up just before the player announces that he or she is playing the card (see rule 601.2).
The bolded part is why a face down exiled Hedron Alignment will not count. It's technically not a Hedron Alignment, it's just a card with no characteristics (including name).
Cards do what they say they do. No more. No less.
Who does Fall of the Titans and Kozilek have contradictions in their statements of CMC of X spells?
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
They do not.
The X value in a mana cost is treated as equal to 0 everywhere except The Stack where it is equal to the the amount of mana paid to cast it.
Ah, good to know there was something like this in place. Thanks for the answers guys
...except Calvinball, of course.
RULES OF MAGIC :
http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/rules-and-formats/rules
What you end up actually paying for the spell is irrelevant. You choose the value for X when you cast the spell, and then treat all Xs on the card as the chosen value while the spell is on the stack.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Correct, my mistake.
Does an Endless One cast for X=5 have a CMC of 5 or 0? Can it be countered by Horribly Awry, for example?
The value for X of a spell is NOT determined by what you pay. What you pay is determned by your choice for X when you cast the spell.
But other than that, yes, If you cast an Endless One with X=5, then Horribly Awry can't counter (or even target) it, since the CMC is 5.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Yes. Every object in the game has a converted mana cost, though many don't have a mana cost. An object without a mana cost has a converted mana cost of 0. 0<3, so you can target Living End in your graveyard with GDD's trigger. Since that trgger also imposes an alternative cost to cast the card, it circumvents the nonexisting mana cost, which normally prohibit you from casting the card (nonexisting costs can't be paid).
UnbrokenSarkhanlz should have made a new thread rather than reviving this one. He was answered and that's good, but I'm locking the thread now .
-MadMage
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)