After reading CI this week, buddy of mine came up with an interesting question I couldn't find a rules cite to answer.
"If a player casts a spell or activates an ability and announces choices for it that are not normally made until resolution, the player must adhere to those choices unless an opponent responds to that spell or ability. If an opponent inquires about choices made during resolution, that player is assumed to be passing priority and allowing that spell or ability to resolve. "
I totally understand the Persecute 'green' trick not being valid and also the converse where someone can't 'gotcha!' by asking what you are choosing/naming.
How about you drop a Polluted Delta and announce 'crack, go get Underground Sea then I'll say end my turn' and your opponent starts to take their turn and as you go through your deck you realize you miscounted and have no remaining Underground Seas left in the deck. I know you can fail to find the Underground Sea but can you grab anything else that meets the criteria of the ability, like say Swamp or Island and put that into play instead? Does this shortcut really apply (it seems so, although you are not naming a card you are announcing a decision normally made on resolution of an ability, hence being 'bound' to it)? Can you change your mind because what you get can 100% affect your opponent's play at EoT. Any type of Rules cite or tourney guidelines cite would be very helpful here, I've honestly never thought of this situation before at all.
The quoted rule only covers legal choices. It does not allow you to perform illegal actions. Selecting a card from your library that does not exist is like saying "I sacrifice a Typhoid Rats to Merciless Executioner" when you don't actually control a Typhoid Rats. You are not "locked in" to Underground Sea, but you might get a Game Rule Violation. Depending on how far the opponent advanced through their turn, other penalties may also be involved, and there may or may not be a rewind.
There's no citation I can offer because the legality of the choices is implicit - the rule is clearly not designed to be a way to lock in illegal choices.
The issue is that the player didn't "fail to find". The illegal play is not "Search for Underground Sea and fail to find it". The illegal play is "Search for an Island or Swamp, find Underground Sea and put it onto the battlefield."
The rule being broken is that you cannot put a card onto the battlefield from your library that does not exist in your library.
The issue is that the player failed to find though, both in the literal sense and in the hidden zone you can always fail to find sense.
By saying the player is performing an illegal play, you are saying the player is locked into a choice. Then you say the rules are setup to not lock you into an illegal choice. I'm not understanding what you mean, please clarify. Or maybe I need to be clearer:
If I 'announce' the type of land I am getting with a fetchland, am I locked into that choice when the opponent passes priority (per the above announcement shortcut rule) OR can I simply find any card that fits the criteria of the action?
The rule commonly referred to as "fail to find" is the following:
701.15b If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a certain card type or color, that player isn’t required to find some or all of those cards even if they’re present in that zone.
When a player says "Crack a fetch for Underground Sea", that needs to be translated to the terms used by the game rules. By the game rules, the fetchland has only one activated ability - to search for an Island or Swamp and put it onto the battlefield. "Search for a card named Underground Sea" is not an option. Therefore, no matter what the player said, the actual ability they must be activating is the "search for an Island or Swamp" one. When the player says "...for Underground Sea", they are making an assertion about the outcome of the ability. 701.15b is not relevant - all that rule does is to give the player the option to say "I find nothing". The player did not to take that option. They attempted to put an Underground Sea (which doesn't exist) from their library onto the battlefield.
When a player announces a play, they attempt to lock themselves (and the rest of the game state) into that play. If the play is legal, they are locked in. If the play is not legal, and it is immediately caught, they are forced to rewind. If the play is not legal, and is not caught until later, a judge needs to decide how to handle the situation with minimum damage to the game state.
In the specific case - if you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there is one in your deck, you must put that one onto the battlefield. If you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there isn't one in the deck, it would be rewound to the illegal action and you would be forced to do something else - and depending on REL and other factors, there might be further consequences. Announcing "crack for Underground Sea" when you know you have none in your deck, with the intent of seeing an opponent's reaction, would be Cheating, just like any other intentional illegal action.
The rule commonly referred to as "fail to find" is the following:
701.15b If a player is searching a hidden zone for cards with a stated quality, such as a card with a certain card type or color, that player isn’t required to find some or all of those cards even if they’re present in that zone.
When a player says "Crack a fetch for Underground Sea", that needs to be translated to the terms used by the game rules. By the game rules, the fetchland has only one activated ability - to search for an Island or Swamp and put it onto the battlefield. "Search for a card named Underground Sea" is not an option. Therefore, no matter what the player said, the actual ability they must be activating is the "search for an Island or Swamp" one. When the player says "...for Underground Sea", they are making an assertion about the outcome of the ability. 701.15b is not relevant - all that rule does is to give the player the option to say "I find nothing". The player did not to take that option. They attempted to put an Underground Sea (which doesn't exist) from their library onto the battlefield.
When a player announces a play, they attempt to lock themselves (and the rest of the game state) into that play. If the play is legal, they are locked in. If the play is not legal, and it is immediately caught, they are forced to rewind. If the play is not legal, and is not caught until later, a judge needs to decide how to handle the situation with minimum damage to the game state.
In the specific case - if you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there is one in your deck, you must put that one onto the battlefield. If you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there isn't one in the deck, it would be rewound to the illegal action and you would be forced to do something else - and depending on REL and other factors, there might be further consequences. Announcing "crack for Underground Sea" when you know you have none in your deck, with the intent of seeing an opponent's reaction, would be Cheating, just like any other intentional illegal action.
Ok, I really don't see how in the world you can force someone to put an Underground Sea that is in their deck onto the battlefield; this is a diversion from my previous question but fail to find is specifically in the rules to prevent a player from having to do that because you can never verify since it's a hidden zone.
Now, in the interest of full disclosure, WotC has moved away from these wordings because of cards like [cards]Gifts Ungiven[/card] when someone has say only 4 cards remaining in their library (which may or may not be unique; this is why they changed the wording on Gifts). That aside, the rule exists because you can't force a player to do something with a hidden zone.
Based on the rest of your explanation, if I didn't have an Underground Sea as stated, it seems like the game would rewind and a player would be able to get something else like a Swamp or Island, correct? GRV and stuff aside, my concern is that again, shortcuts were defined in the rules to prevent 'gotcha!' moments and if you announce and don't have it and get screwed, that could definitely feel like a gotcha moment. However, you explanation seems to indicate that would not occur.
P.S. Ack, didn't mean to have it separate in 2 posts like that, whoops.
Technically, you can't pass the turn while still resolving the turn, nor can he actually cast a creature during resolution. So you both broke the game rules.
In the specific case - if you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there is one in your deck, you must put that one onto the battlefield. If you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there isn't one in the deck, it would be rewound to the illegal action and you would be forced to do something else - and depending on REL and other factors, there might be further consequences.
Why? I don't really understand.
"Search your library for an Island or a Swamp card" is not a choice in the sense of what "choice" means when casting spells or activating abilities. It simply means that you search for a card from your library, and if it's either of those types, you can put it onto the battlefield. There's in fact no actual "choice" being made at all; you are simply searching a card with certain characteristics (in this case it has a certain type from a given list).
(It would be quite different if the ability said like "choose one, search for an Island card, or search for a Swamp card". Here there would be an actual choice that needs to be made when activating, and can't be changed when resolving. But even then, you are not choosing a card with a specific name, only of a specific type.)
If simply saying "I activate this ability" without saying what is it that you have in mind that you will search is legal, then why wouldn't it likewise be legal to say "I activate this ability, and maybe search for a Swamp"
It's perfectly legal to do that.
(and if you change your mind by the time it resolves or during its resolution, which rule was broken? The card didn't force you to make a choice on activation.) Heck, what stops you from saying "I activate this ability, and will search for a Grizzly Bears"? Hehe, good joke, but was any rule broken (as long as you don't actually try to put a Grizzly Bears on the battlefield, but instead a Swamp or an Island)? I don't see which one would.
If it's clear you're joking, you can say whatever you want. If you "joke" about illegal plays, your opponent might call a judge.
In fact, being "locked" into your faux "choice" would be detrimental from a tactical point of view. Suppose you say "I activate this for a Swamp", and in response to the activation your opponent casts something, and because of that you change your mind and want to search for an Island instead (eg. because you want to cast a counter spell, and you don't have mana for it, unless you search for an Island). The card certainly doesn't force you to make a choice on activation and stick with it.
Being detrimental from a tactical point of view is exactly the point of the "choices during resolution" rule. If you don't want to be locked into anything, all you have to do is not say what you're searching for before searching. The "choices during resolution" rule is designed to prevent you from saying something, waiting for an opponent to say "OK", then changing your mind. If the opponent does something in response, then you aren't locked in under any circumstances.
Let's say your opponent says "Crack this fetchland, search for Underground Sea." As their opponent, how do I verify that they don't have any Underground Sea cards in their library?
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You don't have to verify, because the land you choose when you crack a fetchland isn't a choice made on resolution (in the MTG sense), so the statement "Search for Underground Sea" isn't binding in any way.
In fact, being "locked" into your faux "choice" would be detrimental from a tactical point of view. Suppose you say "I activate this for a Swamp", and in response to the activation your opponent casts something, and because of that you change your mind and want to search for an Island instead (eg. because you want to cast a counter spell, and you don't have mana for it, unless you search for an Island). The card certainly doesn't force you to make a choice on activation and stick with it.
Putting aside the fact that someone responding to your fetchland means you can't get that island to cast the counterspell in time, if someone responds to your proposed shortcut, you are no longer bound to that shortcut (because your opponent didn't accept it).
Let's say your opponent says "Crack this fetchland, search for Underground Sea." As their opponent, how do I verify that they don't have any Underground Sea cards in their library?
You don't have to. If they put anything other than an Underground Sea onto the battlefield, you call a judge.
Let's say your opponent says "Crack this fetchland, search for Underground Sea." As their opponent, how do I verify that they don't have any Underground Sea cards in their library?
You don't have to. If they put anything other than an Underground Sea onto the battlefield, you call a judge.
Why? What rule was broken?
He's not declaring a shortcut (http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/CR:716 At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. - which land he brings into play isn't a game choice is it?).
I disagree KamikazeArchon, this isn't a shortcut of a game choice, it's a prediction of a future game state that turns out to be untrue, which isn't an infraction. This was discussed pretty heavily in a couple of threads on the judge forums, the most pertinent being this one. In that case, the scenario is that the active player (Andreas) activates Birthing Pod and declares that they are going to search up Restoration Angel to blink their Brain Maggot, then the non-active player (Nigel) reveals their hand before Andreas realizes that they don't actually have a Restoration Angel in the deck (so that situation is roughly analogous to the one in that thread). The responses to the thread indicate that there isn't an infraction, and that the onus is on Nigel to not skip ahead when Andreas makes a prediction of a board state and make him prove it. Specifically, some quotes from L5 Judge Scott Marshall:
Quote from Scott Marshall »
Andreas has predicted a future game state, and Nigel decides Andreas must be psychic or something, and *Nigel* skips ahead to a point that, as it turns out, can't actually happen.
As I noted in that Thoughtseize/oops-no-Swamp thread, when you assume something, bad things can happen - usually to you.
This isn't about Bluffing, nor Shortcuts - arguably, Nigel proposed a shortcut by jumping ahead to the non-existent Brain Maggot's resolution, but that's not where we were headed - this is about honest mistakes and unfortunate assumptions. I am not going to invent an infraction and penalty for Andreas, just because Nigel made an assumption.
Quote from Scott Marshall »
I think I see the source of your confusion - and I'll agree, shortcuts and bluffs are similar, even intertwined. But bluffs include suggestion of a possibility that may never occur; shortcuts simply say "let's skip to here".
Perhaps it's easier to distinguish if you think about the opponent's options, when given a shortcut vs. a bluff.
For a shortcut, the opponent can accept the “destination” (and all implied priority passes), or propose a different “destination”. This is usually seen with AP proposing 1,000,000,000,000,000 iterations of something, where the opponent may want to accept only the first 10, then take an action, or allow all of them, or none of them.
For a bluff, the opponent can accept the prediction - or they can say “prove it” (i.e., calling their bluff).
Overall, we are talking about competitive REL here. This is not FNM or casual, and you straight up should not be making this kind of shortcut in a competitive event. If your opponent is casting a spell whilst you are still searching, then you both need to take a step back and ask yourself how seriously are you taking this game.
I have been on both sides of this shortcut, and as the opponent of someone making this play, I would not take any actions which are not easily reversible. I may go as far an untap and be ready to draw, by this time they should have found what they were looking for. If you start casting spells things can get awkward.
From a technical rules standpoint, the shortcut doesn't work. So if you want to approach it from that position, you cannot move to the next phase until you have finished resolving the ability.
I'm attacking my opponent with a Delver of Secrets and a Tarmagoyf. For lands I have tapped Volcanic Island and Misty Rainforest. My opponent Casts Lightning bolt on my delver. In response I crack my Misty, announce "tropical island" and "spell pierce" showing the pierce and indicating it will target the lightning bolt. My opponent then announces Submerge with alternate cost, targeting my Goyf.
I have not yet put the Trop into play - can I change my mind?
I'm attacking my opponent with a Delver of Secrets and a Tarmagoyf. For lands I have tapped Volcanic Island and Misty Rainforest. My opponent Casts Lightning bolt on my delver. In response I crack my Misty, announce "tropical island" and "spell pierce" showing the pierce and indicating it will target the lightning bolt. My opponent then announces Submerge with alternate cost, targeting my Goyf.
I have not yet put the Trop into play - can I change my mind?
Your opponent should not have announced the Submerge. Announcing Tropical Island isn't a game choice, it's not a shortcut - it's actually meaningless.
Your opponent cant cast spells while an effect is being resolved. If they try doing stuff while you're resolving your fetch, call the judge for their GRV
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"If a player casts a spell or activates an ability and announces choices for it that are not normally made until resolution, the player must adhere to those choices unless an opponent responds to that spell or ability. If an opponent inquires about choices made during resolution, that player is assumed to be passing priority and allowing that spell or ability to resolve. "
I totally understand the Persecute 'green' trick not being valid and also the converse where someone can't 'gotcha!' by asking what you are choosing/naming.
How about you drop a Polluted Delta and announce 'crack, go get Underground Sea then I'll say end my turn' and your opponent starts to take their turn and as you go through your deck you realize you miscounted and have no remaining Underground Seas left in the deck. I know you can fail to find the Underground Sea but can you grab anything else that meets the criteria of the ability, like say Swamp or Island and put that into play instead? Does this shortcut really apply (it seems so, although you are not naming a card you are announcing a decision normally made on resolution of an ability, hence being 'bound' to it)? Can you change your mind because what you get can 100% affect your opponent's play at EoT. Any type of Rules cite or tourney guidelines cite would be very helpful here, I've honestly never thought of this situation before at all.
There's no citation I can offer because the legality of the choices is implicit - the rule is clearly not designed to be a way to lock in illegal choices.
Edit: clarified example.
The rule being broken is that you cannot put a card onto the battlefield from your library that does not exist in your library.
By saying the player is performing an illegal play, you are saying the player is locked into a choice. Then you say the rules are setup to not lock you into an illegal choice. I'm not understanding what you mean, please clarify. Or maybe I need to be clearer:
If I 'announce' the type of land I am getting with a fetchland, am I locked into that choice when the opponent passes priority (per the above announcement shortcut rule) OR can I simply find any card that fits the criteria of the action?
The rule commonly referred to as "fail to find" is the following:
When a player says "Crack a fetch for Underground Sea", that needs to be translated to the terms used by the game rules. By the game rules, the fetchland has only one activated ability - to search for an Island or Swamp and put it onto the battlefield. "Search for a card named Underground Sea" is not an option. Therefore, no matter what the player said, the actual ability they must be activating is the "search for an Island or Swamp" one. When the player says "...for Underground Sea", they are making an assertion about the outcome of the ability. 701.15b is not relevant - all that rule does is to give the player the option to say "I find nothing". The player did not to take that option. They attempted to put an Underground Sea (which doesn't exist) from their library onto the battlefield.
When a player announces a play, they attempt to lock themselves (and the rest of the game state) into that play. If the play is legal, they are locked in. If the play is not legal, and it is immediately caught, they are forced to rewind. If the play is not legal, and is not caught until later, a judge needs to decide how to handle the situation with minimum damage to the game state.
In the specific case - if you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there is one in your deck, you must put that one onto the battlefield. If you announced "crack for Underground Sea" and there isn't one in the deck, it would be rewound to the illegal action and you would be forced to do something else - and depending on REL and other factors, there might be further consequences. Announcing "crack for Underground Sea" when you know you have none in your deck, with the intent of seeing an opponent's reaction, would be Cheating, just like any other intentional illegal action.
Now, in the interest of full disclosure, WotC has moved away from these wordings because of cards like [cards]Gifts Ungiven[/card] when someone has say only 4 cards remaining in their library (which may or may not be unique; this is why they changed the wording on Gifts). That aside, the rule exists because you can't force a player to do something with a hidden zone.
Based on the rest of your explanation, if I didn't have an Underground Sea as stated, it seems like the game would rewind and a player would be able to get something else like a Swamp or Island, correct? GRV and stuff aside, my concern is that again, shortcuts were defined in the rules to prevent 'gotcha!' moments and if you announce and don't have it and get screwed, that could definitely feel like a gotcha moment. However, you explanation seems to indicate that would not occur.
P.S. Ack, didn't mean to have it separate in 2 posts like that, whoops.
Technically, you can't pass the turn while still resolving the turn, nor can he actually cast a creature during resolution. So you both broke the game rules.
If it's clear you're joking, you can say whatever you want. If you "joke" about illegal plays, your opponent might call a judge.
Being detrimental from a tactical point of view is exactly the point of the "choices during resolution" rule. If you don't want to be locked into anything, all you have to do is not say what you're searching for before searching. The "choices during resolution" rule is designed to prevent you from saying something, waiting for an opponent to say "OK", then changing your mind. If the opponent does something in response, then you aren't locked in under any circumstances.
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You don't have to. If they put anything other than an Underground Sea onto the battlefield, you call a judge.
Why? What rule was broken?
He's not declaring a shortcut (http://wiki.magicjudges.org/en/w/CR:716 At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. - which land he brings into play isn't a game choice is it?).
Overall, we are talking about competitive REL here. This is not FNM or casual, and you straight up should not be making this kind of shortcut in a competitive event. If your opponent is casting a spell whilst you are still searching, then you both need to take a step back and ask yourself how seriously are you taking this game.
I have been on both sides of this shortcut, and as the opponent of someone making this play, I would not take any actions which are not easily reversible. I may go as far an untap and be ready to draw, by this time they should have found what they were looking for. If you start casting spells things can get awkward.
From a technical rules standpoint, the shortcut doesn't work. So if you want to approach it from that position, you cannot move to the next phase until you have finished resolving the ability.
I have not yet put the Trop into play - can I change my mind?
Your opponent should not have announced the Submerge. Announcing Tropical Island isn't a game choice, it's not a shortcut - it's actually meaningless.