My friend and I were playing today and he had Anthousa, Setessan Hero on the battlefield. He then played Goblin Shortcutter. He used the effect "When Golbin Shortcutter enters the battlefield, target creature can't block this turn" on Anthousa. According to him that would cause Heroic to proc. He reasoning is that the effect happens at the same time as casting the creature spell and thus the effect is a spell also and would therefore trigger Heroic. He says it doesn't enter the stack. I am under the impression the effect is a part of the stack and is an ability.
I am not sure of rules on links to other sites but I am providing the link as evidence of what I have read. According to "Jefromi" the effect happens after the creature spell resolves.
The important thing here is that when you cast a creature, the spell is just the creature. When it resolves, you put the creature onto the battlefield, and you're done with that spell. As it enters the battlefield, its ability triggers and goes on the stack, entirely separate from the creature spell. - Jefromi
I would appreciate some clarification on this since our mutual friend says that he is correct but I am lead to believe otherwise.
Thank you!
Please use card tags in future Rulings posts. Thank you for your cooperation.
- Rai
Your friend is incorrect. Goblin Shortcutter has a triggered ability that triggers when the creature enters the battlefield; by the time he has a chance to target anything with the ability at all, the creature spell (Goblin Shortcutter) has already resolved and is no longer on the stack. The ability is what targets, not the spell, so nothing here would trigger heroic.
Here's the order everything happens in:
-Your friend casts Goblin Shortcutter. It is now a creature spell on the stack. He passes priority. Nothing has been targeted yet.
-You receive priority. You now have a chance to do something in response before the creature spell resolves, such as kill Anthousa or counter the Goblin Shortcutter. (If the Shortcutter is countered, due to how its ability is worded, its ability would never trigger at all.)
-In this instance, you pass priority back without doing anything. Because priority has now been passed by all players in succession, the top spell on the stack, in this case the Goblin Shortcutter, now resolves, putting Goblin Shortcutter onto the battlefield as a creature permanent.
-At this time, the Goblin's ability now triggers and your friend declares the target and puts the ability onto the stack. If he chooses Anthousa, Setessan Hero as the target, it is now being targeted by an ability, which exists independently of the creature it came from (and is no longer even a spell at this point), so its Heroic ability does not trigger.
There are no creatures that target anything as creature spells. Compare Stun, which says "Target creature can't block this turn."; instants and spells can target permanents or players directly, as spells. The only other card type that does this is Aura Enchantments, which target a creature when they are cast. (The one exception is the bestow mechanic in the Theros block, which does let you cast the cards with bestow as Auras instead of as creatures, which would trigger heroic.)
Abilities could be triggered abilities which start with "When", "Whenever", or "If", like Goblin Shortcutter's ability. They could also be activated abilities, which will specify a cost followed by a colon, as on Bola Warrior. In either case, abilities are not spells, so even if you target a heroic creature with an ability, it will not trigger heroic.
The only card types able to target something when cast as spells are Instants, Sorceries and Auras.
The other card types are unable to target anything when cast; they may have triggered or activated abilities that target, but they won't count as "when you cast a spell that targets {name}..." in Heroic abilities.
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http://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/18464/do-cards-with-abilities-that-target-trigger-heroic
I am not sure of rules on links to other sites but I am providing the link as evidence of what I have read. According to "Jefromi" the effect happens after the creature spell resolves.
I would appreciate some clarification on this since our mutual friend says that he is correct but I am lead to believe otherwise.
Thank you!
Please use card tags in future Rulings posts. Thank you for your cooperation.
- Rai
Goblin Shortcutter
Your friend is incorrect. Goblin Shortcutter has a triggered ability that triggers when the creature enters the battlefield; by the time he has a chance to target anything with the ability at all, the creature spell (Goblin Shortcutter) has already resolved and is no longer on the stack. The ability is what targets, not the spell, so nothing here would trigger heroic.
Here's the order everything happens in:
-Your friend casts Goblin Shortcutter. It is now a creature spell on the stack. He passes priority. Nothing has been targeted yet.
-You receive priority. You now have a chance to do something in response before the creature spell resolves, such as kill Anthousa or counter the Goblin Shortcutter. (If the Shortcutter is countered, due to how its ability is worded, its ability would never trigger at all.)
-In this instance, you pass priority back without doing anything. Because priority has now been passed by all players in succession, the top spell on the stack, in this case the Goblin Shortcutter, now resolves, putting Goblin Shortcutter onto the battlefield as a creature permanent.
-At this time, the Goblin's ability now triggers and your friend declares the target and puts the ability onto the stack. If he chooses Anthousa, Setessan Hero as the target, it is now being targeted by an ability, which exists independently of the creature it came from (and is no longer even a spell at this point), so its Heroic ability does not trigger.
There are no creatures that target anything as creature spells. Compare Stun, which says "Target creature can't block this turn."; instants and spells can target permanents or players directly, as spells. The only other card type that does this is Aura Enchantments, which target a creature when they are cast. (The one exception is the bestow mechanic in the Theros block, which does let you cast the cards with bestow as Auras instead of as creatures, which would trigger heroic.)
Abilities could be triggered abilities which start with "When", "Whenever", or "If", like Goblin Shortcutter's ability. They could also be activated abilities, which will specify a cost followed by a colon, as on Bola Warrior. In either case, abilities are not spells, so even if you target a heroic creature with an ability, it will not trigger heroic.
The other card types are unable to target anything when cast; they may have triggered or activated abilities that target, but they won't count as "when you cast a spell that targets {name}..." in Heroic abilities.