You turn the manifested card face down, then check to see if you can put it onto the battlefield. Because of the Cage, it can't go on the battlefield. So the card will remain on top of your library.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
But doesn't that contradict what's being said on Grafdigger's Cage Oracle?
4/15/2013 The first ability checks only whether the card is a creature card in the graveyard or library. A card such as Sculpting Steel can still enter the battlefield from a graveyard or library as a copy of a creature.
The cards are not (always) creatures in the library, as you can also mianifest non-creature permanents. Wouldn't they still be able to enter the battlefield as 2/2 creatures?
But doesn't that contradict what's being said on Grafdigger's Cage Oracle?
4/15/2013 The first ability checks only whether the card is a creature card in the graveyard or library. A card such as Sculpting Steel can still enter the battlefield from a graveyard or library as a copy of a creature.
The cards are not (always) creatures in the library, as you can also mianifest non-creature permanents. Wouldn't they still be able to enter the battlefield as 2/2 creatures?
When you Manifest, the first thing you do, as Natedogg said, is turn the card face down and it becomes a 2/2 creature with no abilities, mana cost, or name. Then, you check to see if you can put that card onto the battlefield from your library, at which point it is a creature so Grafdigger's Cage says no.
In the case of Sculpting Steel, the card is an artifact in your library, then becomes a creature on the way to the battlefield (assuming you are copying an artifact creature). For Manifest, it becomes a creature in your library, then tries to move to the battlefield.
I don't think we can actually answer this one until the comp rules come out and we see what, if any changes come to 707. Face-Down Spells and Permanents. Currently the relevant rules for manifest are...
701.31a "Manifest [a card]" means "Put [that card] onto the battlefield face down." That permanent is a 2/2 creature with no text, no name, no subtypes, and no mana cost. That permanent is a manifested permanent as long as it's face down. The effect defining its characteristics works any time the card is face down and ends when it's turned face up.
Nothing about that, or anything listed in 707 suggests it's a creature while on the library, and 701.31a suggests that it is only a creature once it is a permanent. Facedown cards are only creatures on the stack, or while they're on the battlefield. Unless Natedogg knows more than us (which isn't out of the question), for now, Grafdigger's Cage doesn't seem to stop things from being manifested. If I'm misunderstanding something, or overlooking something, I would appreciate the correction and explanation.
Matt Tabak said that's how it works on his tumblr (link). You can't manifest from the library if Grafdigger's Cage is on the battlefield.
Well, then that's how it works. Now if I only understood why.
Edit: I'm going to guess it's because of...
...The effect defining its characteristics works any time the card is face down and ends when it's turned face up
Meaning that as soon as we understand that we're manifesting that top card, because it's face down from on top of the library, for a brief moment it's a 2/2 creature sitting on top of the library leaping down from the tower that is your 200+ Battle of Wits deck, onto the battlefield below to rush into service. In that case the cage would catch it, keeping our namesake enchantment from coming to life. But that's just my guess to justify what I don't fully understand. This is starting to turn into conjecture. If anyone can definitively confirm this belief, or elaborate upon why it really works, I would greatly appreciate it.
Tabak has also said on his tumblr that if a manifested instant becomes a copy of Ashcloud Phoenix and dies, it will not come back because it is an instant card (not a creature card) and can't enter the battlefield, even face down. In conjunction with what he says about Grafdigger's cage here, this is really puzzling and seems inconsistent. Does anyone know if this is actually supported in the rules somehow?
Well, if a manifested Instant becomes a copy of Ashcloud Phoenix then the face down status will make it a 2/2 with no abilities. If you try to use the Morph ability on the front face then the rules about Manifest will stop you from actually turning it face up (because it's still represented by an Instant card). When that face down creature dies, the ability on the front face won't trigger, just like if a "real" face down Phoenix died.
You're right, I don't know how I missed that. I guess I just find it unintuitive that copy effects don't really work on face down creatures, even though I know why.
I don't think Tabak pointed that out - he just said that the card couldn't return to the battlefield because it was an instant.
What's happen when I manifest top of my library ?
Thanks.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
The cards are not (always) creatures in the library, as you can also mianifest non-creature permanents. Wouldn't they still be able to enter the battlefield as 2/2 creatures?
When you Manifest, the first thing you do, as Natedogg said, is turn the card face down and it becomes a 2/2 creature with no abilities, mana cost, or name. Then, you check to see if you can put that card onto the battlefield from your library, at which point it is a creature so Grafdigger's Cage says no.
In the case of Sculpting Steel, the card is an artifact in your library, then becomes a creature on the way to the battlefield (assuming you are copying an artifact creature). For Manifest, it becomes a creature in your library, then tries to move to the battlefield.
Nothing about that, or anything listed in 707 suggests it's a creature while on the library, and 701.31a suggests that it is only a creature once it is a permanent. Facedown cards are only creatures on the stack, or while they're on the battlefield. Unless Natedogg knows more than us (which isn't out of the question), for now, Grafdigger's Cage doesn't seem to stop things from being manifested. If I'm misunderstanding something, or overlooking something, I would appreciate the correction and explanation.
Well, then that's how it works. Now if I only understood why.
Edit: I'm going to guess it's because of...
Meaning that as soon as we understand that we're manifesting that top card, because it's face down from on top of the library, for a brief moment it's a 2/2 creature sitting on top of the library leaping down from the tower that is your 200+ Battle of Wits deck, onto the battlefield below to rush into service. In that case the cage would catch it, keeping our namesake enchantment from coming to life. But that's just my guess to justify what I don't fully understand. This is starting to turn into conjecture. If anyone can definitively confirm this belief, or elaborate upon why it really works, I would greatly appreciate it.
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I don't think Tabak pointed that out - he just said that the card couldn't return to the battlefield because it was an instant.