If I Flash in a Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and don't pay the cost to keep it on the field can I tap my remaining lands for double mana before I sacrifice him?
If you choose not to pay, the creature is sacrificed immediately. No player will get priority in between the creature entering the battlefield and being sacrificed. Sacrificing the creature this way will trigger any abilities that trigger when a creature leaves the battlefield.
From the comprehensive rules:
605.3a A player may activate an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, whenever he or she is casting a spell or activating an ability that requires a mana payment, or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even if its in the middle of casting or resolving a spell or activating or resolving an ability.
My understanding (which could be wrong, someone else please verify or correct me!) is that you can only activate mana abilities while resolving Flash, is if you are paying Vorinclex's mana cost. If you're not paying its mana cost, you can't activate mana abilities before you sacriifce him as part of the resolving of Flash. However, you *could* pay its mana cost and effectively only have to pay 2G, because his mana doubling ability will apply while you're tapping lands to pay the cost. So his price is reduced from 6GG to 4GG due to Flash's cost reduction effect, and then when you tap a land to add G to your mana pool, due to Vorinclex being on the field, you really get GG. Tap two more lands for 2, and Vorinclex turns it into 4, so you only have to tap 3 lands (as long as one can produce G) in order to generate the 4GG you would need to keep Vorinclex on the field. That's a pretty good deal!
I'm kind of bad at reading comprehension, so don't mind me as I play a sort of devil's advocate game trying to understand the rules.
To me, the rules are not specific enough on this matter. When does an effect "ask for a mana payment"? As far as I can find, there is no definition of "asking for a mana payment" in the comprehensive rules. If a mana payment is required to make an optional choice, then is the effect actually "asking for a mana payment" if you don't make that choice?
According to 117.12a:
Some spells, activated abilities, and triggered abilities read, “[Do something] unless you
[do something else].” This means the same thing as “You may [do something else]. If you don’t,
[do something].”
Given that, Flash's option of "sacrifice it unless you pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2" is equivalent to: "you may pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2. If you don't, sacrifice it."
Obviously, you have to make a choice to pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2. If you don't make that choice, the creature is sacrificed immediately with no player gaining priority, according to the rulings for Flash. I'm asking if, if you do not make the choice to pay the mana rather than sacrifice the creature, did Flash ever "ask for a mana payment"? Does it only "ask for a mana payment" if you choose to not sacrifice the creature? A follow-up question would be, if you choose to make a mana payment instead of sacrificing the creature (first of all you can only make that choice if you are able to pay the cost, otherwise you can't even make the choice, according to 608.2d "can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible"), then aren't you required to follow through on the choice (in this case, pay the mana and keep the creature rather than sacrificing it)? If you make the choice, but don't follow through on it, isn't that the same thing as not making the choice? So would you really still be in the situation where you didn't make the choice? It all comes back to whether or not the game is "asking for a mana payment" even if you don't make the choice to make the mana payment.
Someone please help me out here because this has got me all confused haha.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If I Flash in a Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger and don't pay the cost to keep it on the field can I tap my remaining lands for double mana before I sacrifice him?
From the comprehensive rules:
My understanding (which could be wrong, someone else please verify or correct me!) is that you can only activate mana abilities while resolving Flash, is if you are paying Vorinclex's mana cost. If you're not paying its mana cost, you can't activate mana abilities before you sacriifce him as part of the resolving of Flash. However, you *could* pay its mana cost and effectively only have to pay 2G, because his mana doubling ability will apply while you're tapping lands to pay the cost. So his price is reduced from 6GG to 4GG due to Flash's cost reduction effect, and then when you tap a land to add G to your mana pool, due to Vorinclex being on the field, you really get GG. Tap two more lands for 2, and Vorinclex turns it into 4, so you only have to tap 3 lands (as long as one can produce G) in order to generate the 4GG you would need to keep Vorinclex on the field. That's a pretty good deal!
To me, the rules are not specific enough on this matter. When does an effect "ask for a mana payment"? As far as I can find, there is no definition of "asking for a mana payment" in the comprehensive rules. If a mana payment is required to make an optional choice, then is the effect actually "asking for a mana payment" if you don't make that choice?
According to 117.12a:
Given that, Flash's option of "sacrifice it unless you pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2" is equivalent to: "you may pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2. If you don't, sacrifice it."
Obviously, you have to make a choice to pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2. If you don't make that choice, the creature is sacrificed immediately with no player gaining priority, according to the rulings for Flash. I'm asking if, if you do not make the choice to pay the mana rather than sacrifice the creature, did Flash ever "ask for a mana payment"? Does it only "ask for a mana payment" if you choose to not sacrifice the creature? A follow-up question would be, if you choose to make a mana payment instead of sacrificing the creature (first of all you can only make that choice if you are able to pay the cost, otherwise you can't even make the choice, according to 608.2d "can't choose an option that's illegal or impossible"), then aren't you required to follow through on the choice (in this case, pay the mana and keep the creature rather than sacrificing it)? If you make the choice, but don't follow through on it, isn't that the same thing as not making the choice? So would you really still be in the situation where you didn't make the choice? It all comes back to whether or not the game is "asking for a mana payment" even if you don't make the choice to make the mana payment.
Someone please help me out here because this has got me all confused haha.