Judging from the topic title, you know this is gonna be a head scratcher I'm sure. >_>
Anyway. I control both a Lich and a Transcendence. Am I invulnerable or does this end in a loop of some sort? From my interpretations, I'm reading this as the following;
I lose all life. If I would later gain life, instead I draw that many cards. I don't lose the game for having zero or less life. If I would take any damage/life loss, I sacrifice that many permanents. If Lich leaves the battlefield, I lose the game.
I don't lose the game for having zero or less life. I do lose the game for having twenty or more life. If I would take damage/life loss, instead I gain two life for each one damage I would take.
I activate, say, Staff of Nin targeting myself. I apply the Transcendence replacement effect to gain two life. Instead I gain no life and draw two cards. Do I sacrifice a permanent because of the Staff? I didn't take damage (gain two life replaces take one damage, which is then converted to a draw2 and thus never fulfilling Transcendence's losing condition, right?)
2. What if Transcendence is on the battlefield first, then Lich resolves? I lose all life, which will cause the former to give me all that life back. Will that be turned into more card draw as well? Or is this particular situation a never-ending loop?
Transcendence has a triggered ability, not a replacement effect. So when you are dealt damage, say by Staff of Nin, two abilities will trigger: Sacrifice permanents equal to the damage you were dealt or lose the game (via Lich) or gain life draw cards equal to twice the life you lost (via Transcendence as modified by Lich's replacement effect). They will resolve in whichever order you choose since you control both of the triggers.
1. "What kills me with this board state" isn't really a rules question, but note that Lich causes you to sacrifice permanents when you are dealt damage - your permanents having indestructible won't change that. In addition to what you've listed, you can also lose if you're dealt enough damage to force you to sacrifice more permanents than you have, by getting enough poison counters, or via effects that make your opponent win the game, for example.
2. Lich makes you lose life equal to your life total, triggering Transcendence, which tries to make you gain twice that amount of life. That amount is then fed through Lich's replacement effect and you draw cards equal to twice the amount of life you lost.
Well, first, let's point out that the transcendence effect is not a replacement effect. It is a triggered effect that says whenever you lose life, you gain twice that much life. So, every time you are dealt damage, you will sacrifice a permanent, and then when the trancsendence tries to make you gain life, you will instead draw that many cards from the lich.
So, you can still lose if the lich leaves, or you can lose for decking out, if you have that many permanents to sacrifice.
If you activate the staff, it will deal one damage to you, so you will have to sacrifice a permanent. You will try to gain two life for the one life lost, and that will be replaced with drawing cards.
So, if you control those cards in example one, you can still be dealt damage, and have to sacrifice permanents. The transcendence does not stop you from losing life, it just gains you two life after you lose one.
With transcendence on the battlefield, and then the lich. Say you are at 20 life. You will lose 20 life from the lich, transcendence will try to gain you 40 life, but instead the lich will have you draw 40 cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
Ah, that'll do it then. I must've missed Transcendence being a trigger as I thought it modified the act of taking damage. Re-reading the card does indeed confirm that, and subsequently, that this isn't a "combo" after all (as a replacement effect it would be though).
Thanks for the help. I do consider myself pretty rules-savvy (especially with obscure rules) but it is very useful to have another set of eyes look over something, especially complicated somethings with a lot of baggage like the above scenario.
603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as "[Trigger condition], [effect]," and begin with the word "when," "whenever," or "at." They can also be expressed as "[When/Whenever/At] [trigger event], [effect]."
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen -- they arent locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever theyre affecting. #
614.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will be replaced with other events. #
614.1b Effects that use the word "skip" are replacement effects. These replacement effects use the word "skip" to indicate what events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing. #
614.1c Effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield with . . . ," "As [this permanent] enters the battlefield . . . ," or "[This permanent] enters the battlefield as . . . " are replacement effects. #
614.1d Continuous effects that read "[This permanent] enters the battlefield . . ." or "[Objects] enter the battlefield . . ." are replacement effects. #
614.1e Effects that read "As [this permanent] is turned face up . . . ," are replacement effects. #
Those are the official rulings for triggered and replacement effects. I try to stay up to date on the rules as well, so it never hurts to look them over and have them in the thread where the question took place.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Whats the big deal about black lotus you ask? Well you see, there is no big deal about it. It IS the big deal.
What happens if Lich and Transcendence enter the battlefield at the same time, such as via Replenish? Since you lose the life as Lich enters, I'm assuming Transcendence doesn't trigger.
What happens if Lich and Transcendence enter the battlefield at the same time, such as via Replenish? Since you lose the life as Lich enters, I'm assuming Transcendence doesn't trigger.
Correct, at the time you lose the life transcendence isn't currently on the battlefield. So in this instance the triggered ability of transcendence would not trigger.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DCI Level 2 Judge
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Anyway. I control both a Lich and a Transcendence. Am I invulnerable or does this end in a loop of some sort? From my interpretations, I'm reading this as the following;
I activate, say, Staff of Nin targeting myself. I apply the Transcendence replacement effect to gain two life. Instead I gain no life and draw two cards. Do I sacrifice a permanent because of the Staff? I didn't take damage (gain two life replaces take one damage, which is then converted to a draw2 and thus never fulfilling Transcendence's losing condition, right?)
1. So with an Emblem from Elspeth, Knight-Errant and two copies of Greater Auramancy, the only way I can lose is by drawing a card from an empty library, or a mass effect such as Worldfire or Upheaval. Is this correct?
2. What if Transcendence is on the battlefield first, then Lich resolves? I lose all life, which will cause the former to give me all that life back. Will that be turned into more card draw as well? Or is this particular situation a never-ending loop?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
gain lifedraw cards equal to twice the life you lost (via Transcendence as modified by Lich's replacement effect). They will resolve in whichever order you choose since you control both of the triggers.1. "What kills me with this board state" isn't really a rules question, but note that Lich causes you to sacrifice permanents when you are dealt damage - your permanents having indestructible won't change that. In addition to what you've listed, you can also lose if you're dealt enough damage to force you to sacrifice more permanents than you have, by getting enough poison counters, or via effects that make your opponent win the game, for example.
2. Lich makes you lose life equal to your life total, triggering Transcendence, which tries to make you gain twice that amount of life. That amount is then fed through Lich's replacement effect and you draw cards equal to twice the amount of life you lost.
So, you can still lose if the lich leaves, or you can lose for decking out, if you have that many permanents to sacrifice.
If you activate the staff, it will deal one damage to you, so you will have to sacrifice a permanent. You will try to gain two life for the one life lost, and that will be replaced with drawing cards.
So, if you control those cards in example one, you can still be dealt damage, and have to sacrifice permanents. The transcendence does not stop you from losing life, it just gains you two life after you lose one.
With transcendence on the battlefield, and then the lich. Say you are at 20 life. You will lose 20 life from the lich, transcendence will try to gain you 40 life, but instead the lich will have you draw 40 cards.
Thanks for the help. I do consider myself pretty rules-savvy (especially with obscure rules) but it is very useful to have another set of eyes look over something, especially complicated somethings with a lot of baggage like the above scenario.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Those are the official rulings for triggered and replacement effects. I try to stay up to date on the rules as well, so it never hurts to look them over and have them in the thread where the question took place.
Correct, at the time you lose the life transcendence isn't currently on the battlefield. So in this instance the triggered ability of transcendence would not trigger.