Cliffs -
-Horrible experience at game day
-rules where changed multiple times b/c of the impossible action segment of the sentence about discarding and drawing.
-I play a creatureless esper mill control every week, went 5-1 and took 3rd in tourny
-Battle the Horde is weak to mill, questions where brought up about banning a majority of my standard cards, was over ruled, I won easily, then opinions changed and cards where banned
-My win was disqualified and didn't get my promo cards
-No trolls, there is no "wrong, bad, fun" I don't like creatures or aggro, I like cleverness and guile. Instead of putting together all the dynamite I could to open a safe, I would rather find the combination.
-cards in question: Syncopate, Crypt Incursion, Sphere of Safety, Mind Grind.
RAW
Ignore effects that would cause the horde to draw or discard cards, or any other impossible actions.
makes sense, Horde does not have a hand so there is no target for thoughtsieze, duress, cyclonic rift
what it does not say is that an automatic fail makes an action impossible.
syncopate target is spell, action is counter both of those are possible, cost to opponent x mana, it's not impossible for the opponent's spell to be countered (the action), the horde just fails the cost to not be countered.
crypt incursion target = creatures in grave yard, action = exile gain 3 life, both are possible actions, Player can gain life, horde cards can be exiled. The rules have an override for the horde that says "If one of the Horde’s permanents would move to any zone other than its library or graveyard, that card is put into the Horde’s graveyard". It does not say can't be exiled.
sphere of safety target = attacking creatures, action = can't attack you or a planeswalker, both target and action is possible, cost to controller of attacking creatures = x mana, the horde simply fails the cost. As written that does not make the action of "can't attack player" impossible.
mind grind target = opponents' library, action = reveal cards from the top of library, put all cards into graveyard, there is a library, graveyard and there are cards, the action is possible, amount of cards/cost = x land
which the horde does not have so they fail. Failing does not make the action impossible.
Before I played the deck I was told
-can not counter b/c they aren't casting
-can not use mind grind b/c the horde isn't an opponent
disproved both of these, so argument went to
-can not use mind grind, syncopate, or sphere of safety b/c they are "impossible actions"
I proved that the actions of those cards are not impossible so I was allowed to play my deck that I always play every week.
-My life was in the red at 6 early game, but after good decisions on order of play, I got my life up into the 40s, administrator flipped out at this points and refused to keep running the deck, another player stepped in for him, I won.
-The owner changed his mind and said all of those cards except for syncopate have no effect. They all play off very similar interactions with the Horde deck, a lack of a resource that deck has. If syncopate can cause x mana to have to be paid, sphere should, and mind grind should cause x land to have to be revealed, if syncopate can exile to the grave yard, crypt incursion should as well. The decision seems to be based on which cards seem "too good".
I would really like to find an official ruling on what an impossible action is. And it's a shame this limited thinking forces one style of "fun". The major problem at play was I didn't think to out aggro the deck. Aggro is considered winning, control and mill are viewed as tricks and cheating. If I found a crazy aggro combo that let me hit for 30 with trample and life link it would be celebrated, but if you choose to intelligently target weaknesses it's cheap. A brute senseless horde with out resources should lose to clever mages.
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
First of all, you've got a major chip on you shoulder that you might want to deal with.
Second of all the lack of complete sentences makes this incredibly difficult to read.
Mind Grind, Syncopate, and Sphere of Safety are all extremely effective against the Battle the Horde deck, you are correct about their interactions with it and the administrator should have allowed you to use them and accepted that you beat the deck. That you're randomly playing cards that happen to be automatic wins against the Horde deck isn't particularly "intelligent", though.
Thank you for your response. Do you know of an official ruling posted anywhere?
Your last sentence shows some players have a stigma towards decks like mine. I never said aggro decks were ignorant, but the uncivilized chaotic horde is clearly an ignorant roll stomp smash army that would lose to strategy. If my post made you defensive you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder too.
Frankly, I'd consider finding a different store if you can. A store should always inform players if it's going to house-ban something, and you were unfairly denied prizes here. Impossible actions aren't really handled the way the shop owner tried to handle them; if there's something in a spell's instructions that is impossible, it's just ignored. It's not retroactively corrected by a judge in any event, and it certainly doesn't work the way he's suggesting it works.
Additionally, if your play style is this maligned, it's probably time to shop for different shops.
The Challenge Decks aren't technically events at all. They're just activities that the store hosts on the side. They're free to make whatever rules they want. This is strictly a case of the store having poor policy.
It all depends on if the Horde side "event" is officially part of Game Day. Withholding prizes intended specifically for an event is a big strike against the store, but you would have to contact Wizards to find out if it's against anything agreements.
Private Mod Note
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Thank you for your response. Do you know of an official ruling posted anywhere?
Your last sentence shows some players have a stigma towards decks like mine. I never said aggro decks were ignorant, but the uncivilized chaotic horde is clearly an ignorant roll stomp smash army that would lose to strategy. If my post made you defensive you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder too.
My understanding is that game day is still a tournament, and the promos are still supposed to be distributed based on the results of that tournament.
"battle the horde" is just a casual side event, and house rules are encouraged. There is not official source of robust rules for it. It seems to me like your store was taking it more seriously than intended.
-Horrible experience at game day
-rules where changed multiple times b/c of the impossible action segment of the sentence about discarding and drawing.
-I play a creatureless esper mill control every week, went 5-1 and took 3rd in tourny
-Battle the Horde is weak to mill, questions where brought up about banning a majority of my standard cards, was over ruled, I won easily, then opinions changed and cards where banned
-My win was disqualified and didn't get my promo cards
-No trolls, there is no "wrong, bad, fun" I don't like creatures or aggro, I like cleverness and guile. Instead of putting together all the dynamite I could to open a safe, I would rather find the combination.
-cards in question: Syncopate, Crypt Incursion, Sphere of Safety, Mind Grind.
RAW
Ignore effects that would cause the horde to draw or discard cards, or any other impossible actions.
makes sense, Horde does not have a hand so there is no target for thoughtsieze, duress, cyclonic rift
what it does not say is that an automatic fail makes an action impossible.
syncopate target is spell, action is counter both of those are possible, cost to opponent x mana, it's not impossible for the opponent's spell to be countered (the action), the horde just fails the cost to not be countered.
crypt incursion target = creatures in grave yard, action = exile gain 3 life, both are possible actions, Player can gain life, horde cards can be exiled. The rules have an override for the horde that says "If one of the Horde’s permanents would move to any zone other than its library or graveyard, that card is put into the Horde’s graveyard". It does not say can't be exiled.
sphere of safety target = attacking creatures, action = can't attack you or a planeswalker, both target and action is possible, cost to controller of attacking creatures = x mana, the horde simply fails the cost. As written that does not make the action of "can't attack player" impossible.
mind grind target = opponents' library, action = reveal cards from the top of library, put all cards into graveyard, there is a library, graveyard and there are cards, the action is possible, amount of cards/cost = x land
which the horde does not have so they fail. Failing does not make the action impossible.
Before I played the deck I was told
-can not counter b/c they aren't casting
-can not use mind grind b/c the horde isn't an opponent
disproved both of these, so argument went to
-can not use mind grind, syncopate, or sphere of safety b/c they are "impossible actions"
I proved that the actions of those cards are not impossible so I was allowed to play my deck that I always play every week.
-My life was in the red at 6 early game, but after good decisions on order of play, I got my life up into the 40s, administrator flipped out at this points and refused to keep running the deck, another player stepped in for him, I won.
-The owner changed his mind and said all of those cards except for syncopate have no effect. They all play off very similar interactions with the Horde deck, a lack of a resource that deck has. If syncopate can cause x mana to have to be paid, sphere should, and mind grind should cause x land to have to be revealed, if syncopate can exile to the grave yard, crypt incursion should as well. The decision seems to be based on which cards seem "too good".
I would really like to find an official ruling on what an impossible action is. And it's a shame this limited thinking forces one style of "fun". The major problem at play was I didn't think to out aggro the deck. Aggro is considered winning, control and mill are viewed as tricks and cheating. If I found a crazy aggro combo that let me hit for 30 with trample and life link it would be celebrated, but if you choose to intelligently target weaknesses it's cheap. A brute senseless horde with out resources should lose to clever mages.
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Second of all the lack of complete sentences makes this incredibly difficult to read.
Mind Grind, Syncopate, and Sphere of Safety are all extremely effective against the Battle the Horde deck, you are correct about their interactions with it and the administrator should have allowed you to use them and accepted that you beat the deck. That you're randomly playing cards that happen to be automatic wins against the Horde deck isn't particularly "intelligent", though.
Your last sentence shows some players have a stigma towards decks like mine. I never said aggro decks were ignorant, but the uncivilized chaotic horde is clearly an ignorant roll stomp smash army that would lose to strategy. If my post made you defensive you might have a bit of a chip on your shoulder too.
Additionally, if your play style is this maligned, it's probably time to shop for different shops.
When in doubt, call a judge.
Objectivist here. Hit me up to talk philosophy.
Shout out to commandercast for keeping me entertained.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
My understanding is that game day is still a tournament, and the promos are still supposed to be distributed based on the results of that tournament.
"battle the horde" is just a casual side event, and house rules are encouraged. There is not official source of robust rules for it. It seems to me like your store was taking it more seriously than intended.
This. Further discussion doesn't belong in the Rulings forum, so I'm closing this thread.
Please use card tags when you're asking a question about specific cards: [c]Serra Angel[/c] -> Serra Angel.