Mythics are mythic because they're too pushed for limited or because they have unique effects. Legendary creatures are just creatures that are important in the story. They're completely unrelated as they should be. You can have rare legendaries, you can have mythic legendaries. It works just fine. Your entire argument is based around a false premise: who said legendaries have to be so stupidly powerful that they should be included in every on-color deck? Even in your own example, you see Melira is a great use of legendary, yet she obviously isn't very powerful. Not everyone who's important in the story is stupidly powerful.
PS: How does Platinum Angel not bring a unique feel to the game? 99.9% of the games you're at 3 and tapped out, I can bolt you for the kill. Not if Platinum Angel is around!
This thread proves your theory about Melira wrong:
First, no one said "unique feel" could only exist at mythic (although I believe I said unique effect, which is very different - unique feel was in response to your statement about Platinum Angel not feeling unique, when the effect clearly does). You can have unique feeling commons. I simply said that one of the reasons cards are put at mythic is that they have unique effects (and therefore can be potentially absurdly powerful - Primal Surge, for example, came very close to being completely busted). Second, what does that list prove? Melira is played, but she's hardly an auto-include in green decks. She's not even an auto-include in pod, the only archetype where she's used.
Rarity should have nothing to do with flavor and everything to do with power level. I just double-checked this thread and I haven't stated anything at all about flavor being a consideration in this topic, except to say it isn't part of the consideration.
Legendary should be as rare as Planeswalkers. Isn't a Planeswalker a legend? Doesn't it follow the same rule set as Legendary cards? What's the difference between a guy named Albert Einstein and the Albert Einstein? One is a Legend, the other is just a guy with the same name as a legend.
~snip
If multiple can exist, then it isn't unique. Something that is mythic should be so powerful and important that only one can exist. Basically, this is the entire point of this thread in a very condensed sentence. The world can be filled with countless platinum angels, so they aren't that rare. Just because a card is printed with a powerful ability or never-seen-before combination of abilities doesn't mean it should be made Mythic Rare rarity.
You say the bold portion, but everything following seems to speak to the contrary. What possible improvements on the actual game could linking Legendary and Mythic statuses have? I have yet to see any of your propositions that would make the game more fun to play, and I think plenty of points have been made as to why it would make the game worse.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Legendary should unrelated irrelevant to Rarity. I don't think Mythic Rare serves a purpose except to drive up the value of cards and sell more packs. Common, Uncommon, Rare is adequate. IMO Common cards should use evergreen mechanics and the set keywords. Uncommon should use more wordy or unusual mechanics which while not necessarily powerful are going to be confusing to new players or take up time to resolve. Then Legendary Creatures and Planeswalkers as well as creatures or spells with walls of text and game altering shenanigans should be limited to rare. Mythic rare is unnecessary. If I'm playing Dimir the "Cipher" mechanic is fine on Common cards. The Dimir "Grind" mechanic which is part of their play style and character but not a keyword should be on Uncommon or Rare cards. They should also be willing to reuse more mechanics from other sets and blocks in those spaces. Maybe my rare Dragon has Devour because its appropriate. Unfortunately its not part of the set keywords for say Theros or Khans block. If it's in a rare space that shouldn't matter, do it anyway. People might need to relearn or reference what it does, but that's part of playing a table top game.
Legendary should be a restriction of 1 of the card per deck. Normal should be a restriction of 4 of the card per deck. Then Basic should be unrestricted.
Nice and simple. Planeswalkers should all be Legendary. Then they should retrospectively give the other Planeswalker rule to Legendaries so that you can only have one variant of a person in play. That way we don't have your White Mikaeus and Black Mikaeus on the board at once. Or Legendary Creature Venser with Planeswalker Venser.
Legendary should unrelated irrelevant to Rarity. I don't think Mythic Rare serves a purpose except to drive up the value of cards and sell more packs. Common, Uncommon, Rare is adequate.
Legendary should be a restriction of 1 of the card per deck. Normal should be a restriction of 4 of the card per deck. Then Basic should be unrestricted.
Nice and simple.
Disagree with everything except the first sentence.
Mythic Rarity improved the quality of Limited by allowing for powerhouse Constructed cards to exist in new sets without warping Limited. Not only that, but with the increase in popularity of Magic in recent years, print runs of regular sets have increased substantially. This lowers the value of regular rares. That both cheapens the value of Magic Cards as a collectible, and makes it much more difficult for card shops to stay in the business of selling singles. The introduction of Mythic Rare status may have driven up the prices of the cards we pay for, but it also increases the value of our collections and keeps our shops around. I call that an elegant solution.
Legendary permanents restricted per deck? How would that improve the game? It would just make decks less consistent and increase the luck factor. That's not a good change.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
You might have a point on the rarity thing concerning limited.
0.0167 + 0.0169 + 0.0172 + 0.0175 + 0.0179 + 0.0182 + 0.0185 = 0.1229
0.0667 + 0.0678 + 0.0690 + 0.0702 + 0.0714 + 0.0727 + 0.0741 = 0.4919
So if I have 1 of a given card I have a 12.3% chance of getting it in my first hand as opposed to with 4 having a 49.2% chance of getting it in my first hand.
Mythic Rare is indeed a blight upon the game.
The only reason it exists is to drive sales.
But wait! One might say, Mythic Rare is meant to keep intentionally pushed cards out of limited while driving sales.
My response to that has and always will be: Well that sounds lazy, they got by just fine in limited for THIRTEEN YEARS before Shards of Alara showed up and there was only Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
Mythic Rare is indeed a blight upon the game.
The only reason it exists is to drive sales.
But wait! One might say, Mythic Rare is meant to keep intentionally pushed cards out of limited while driving sales.
My response to that has and always will be: Well that sounds lazy, they got by just fine in limited for THIRTEEN YEARS before Shards of Alara showed up and there was only Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
I don't even feel like arguing the point. This is a really, really old argument that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Rarity should have nothing to do with flavor and everything to do with power level. I just double-checked this thread and I haven't stated anything at all about flavor being a consideration in this topic, except to say it isn't part of the consideration.
Legendary should be as rare as Planeswalkers. Isn't a Planeswalker a legend? Doesn't it follow the same rule set as Legendary cards? What's the difference between a guy named Albert Einstein and the Albert Einstein? One is a Legend, the other is just a guy with the same name as a legend.
You argue that to become legendary (Basically becoming famous on the world they live on) should make something mythic. That is ENTIRELY flavor. Also, Just because all planeswalkers would be legendary if they were just creatures, that wouldn't change the fact the the thing the governs their scarcity is something that appears randomly in new borns and rarely ever gets ignited. Planeswalkers are no where near as common as legendary people.
Planeswalkers are no where near as common as legendary people.
And one of my points is that this is a poor choice from a game design perspective. The Legendary concept; whether embodied as Creature, Planeswalker, Land, Artifact, or Enchantment; should be consistent throughout. Legendary Creature cards are much more common than the others types and it shouldn't be that way. Synchronizing Mythic Rare with Legendary would help that game design choice be better aligned. Again, nothing to do with flavor.
Planeswalkers are no where near as common as legendary people.
And one of my points is that this is a poor choice from a game design perspective. The Legendary concept; whether embodied as Creature, Planeswalker, Land, Artifact, or Enchantment; should be consistent throughout. Legendary Creature cards are much more common than the others types and it shouldn't be that way. Synchronizing Mythic Rare with Legendary would help that game design choice be better aligned. Again, nothing to do with flavor.
This is still a vague explanation of why this change should be made. I don't know what you mean by making the "game design choice be better aligned". It certainly sounds like you think all legendaries should be mythic and vice versa because it "feels" right to you, with no regard for the implications on the game itself.
Show me one specific, concrete example of how this would improve Magic.
Edit: And I feel a bit silly having to say this, because it's almost exactly what I posted four days ago.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Show me one specific, concrete example of how this would improve Magic.
I'll do better, I'll give several. Granted, some of these are re-printed as Mythic Rare, but if the Legendary card type was used better from the beginning, it would prevent a lot of other spill-over effects like the B/R lists.
Huntmaster of the Fells - multiples of this card in play dominated when it was in Standard, making it Legendary would limit the exposure and domination
Lighthouse Chronologist - although in a duel setting, triggering multiples in play isn't that beneficial, it is still an example
Lotus Cobra - with the low CMC, it is easy to ramp into huge things over and over
Maelstrom Nexus - although casting cost is a consideration, stacking this 2-3 times in a turn is just as broken as the Wanderer and he is Legendary...
Malignus - similar to Serra Avatar, multiples of this guy in play is just absurd and dominating
Master Biomancer - granted, this isn't dominating Standard, but it would affect game design by limiting multiple triggers
Mirari's Wake - Akroma's Memorial is Legendary, why isn't this? Eldrazi Monument has the sacrifice creature drawback, but this has none
Mox Diamond - this wouldn't need to be on the B/R list if it was Legendary. Mox Opal is Legendary and it works fantastic. I even venture a proposal to reprint all Mox cards (and Lion's Eye Diamond) with the Mox Diamond drawback and Legendary; it would be a tremendous addition to the game. Also, a superb integration of Mythic Rare and Legendary.
The more important question to me is: what does Mythic Rare do for the game design? Limiting quantity in a random booster draft or non-seeded sealed constructed isn't worth the negative impact it has on the overall game.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out what your point is. Other than Tarmo and Mox Diamond, all the cards you listed see little-to-no play. Are you saying that every "strong" Mythic needs to arbitrarily be made a Legend as well? That's ridiculous. You've provided your subjective opinion on cards that you would have designed differently, and I'm not even close to agreeing with you.
If you don't like how certain cards operate, fine. But some sweeping rule change for how to design future cards isn't the answer.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
I'm having a really hard time figuring out what your point is. Other than Tarmo and Mox Diamond, all the cards you listed see little-to-no play. Are you saying that every "strong" Mythic needs to arbitrarily be made a Legend as well? That's ridiculous. You've provided your subjective opinion on cards that you would have designed differently, and I'm not even close to agreeing with you.
If you don't like how certain cards operate, fine. But some sweeping rule change for how to design future cards isn't the answer.
That's the beauty of this forum. Thank you for providing your opinion on this thread! Diversity of perspective is always appreciated here.
Furthermore, the cards that were actually problematic were all made before mythics existed, so the point is moot. (Also, a double sided legend had problems under old rules, so they never would have made Huntmaster legendary.)
What is the point of arguing game design points without flavor, when the game you are discussing places a huge importance on flavor? You cannot debate the one with any validity without considering the other. For example Valkut is not legendary for two reasons, one it was printed before the Legendary rules change which makes running multiple legendary lands less punishing, and two the flavor of getting mana from lands does not mean you are on that singular land. It means that you tap into a leyline for mana connected to that land and some are more rare than others, which MaRo has commented on a couple of times.
Flavor and mechanics are too intertwined to discus major changes to one without the impact on the other.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/219379-tier-modern-decks-lists-prices-etc-updated-mar
Also, "unique feel" != "Mythic Rare". Hundreds of unique-feeling cards are printed at that Rare rarity.
You say the bold portion, but everything following seems to speak to the contrary. What possible improvements on the actual game could linking Legendary and Mythic statuses have? I have yet to see any of your propositions that would make the game more fun to play, and I think plenty of points have been made as to why it would make the game worse.
Legendary should be a restriction of 1 of the card per deck. Normal should be a restriction of 4 of the card per deck. Then Basic should be unrestricted.
Nice and simple. Planeswalkers should all be Legendary. Then they should retrospectively give the other Planeswalker rule to Legendaries so that you can only have one variant of a person in play. That way we don't have your White Mikaeus and Black Mikaeus on the board at once. Or Legendary Creature Venser with Planeswalker Venser.
Disagree with everything except the first sentence.
Mythic Rarity improved the quality of Limited by allowing for powerhouse Constructed cards to exist in new sets without warping Limited. Not only that, but with the increase in popularity of Magic in recent years, print runs of regular sets have increased substantially. This lowers the value of regular rares. That both cheapens the value of Magic Cards as a collectible, and makes it much more difficult for card shops to stay in the business of selling singles. The introduction of Mythic Rare status may have driven up the prices of the cards we pay for, but it also increases the value of our collections and keeps our shops around. I call that an elegant solution.
Legendary permanents restricted per deck? How would that improve the game? It would just make decks less consistent and increase the luck factor. That's not a good change.
0.0167 + 0.0169 + 0.0172 + 0.0175 + 0.0179 + 0.0182 + 0.0185 = 0.1229
0.0667 + 0.0678 + 0.0690 + 0.0702 + 0.0714 + 0.0727 + 0.0741 = 0.4919
So if I have 1 of a given card I have a 12.3% chance of getting it in my first hand as opposed to with 4 having a 49.2% chance of getting it in my first hand.
That always seemed pretty high.
The only reason it exists is to drive sales.
But wait! One might say, Mythic Rare is meant to keep intentionally pushed cards out of limited while driving sales.
My response to that has and always will be: Well that sounds lazy, they got by just fine in limited for THIRTEEN YEARS before Shards of Alara showed up and there was only Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
I don't even feel like arguing the point. This is a really, really old argument that doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand.
This is still a vague explanation of why this change should be made. I don't know what you mean by making the "game design choice be better aligned". It certainly sounds like you think all legendaries should be mythic and vice versa because it "feels" right to you, with no regard for the implications on the game itself.
Show me one specific, concrete example of how this would improve Magic.
Edit: And I feel a bit silly having to say this, because it's almost exactly what I posted four days ago.
The more important question to me is: what does Mythic Rare do for the game design? Limiting quantity in a random booster draft or non-seeded sealed constructed isn't worth the negative impact it has on the overall game.
If you don't like how certain cards operate, fine. But some sweeping rule change for how to design future cards isn't the answer.
Flavor and mechanics are too intertwined to discus major changes to one without the impact on the other.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!