Red is definitely still in need of a versatile 2-drop. All of its best 2-drops fit very specific strategies; Goblin Recruiter and Goblin Piledriver are Goblin combo cards, while Keldon Marauders only works in Burn/RDW (IIRC).
That's interesting. Do you have a link to a Young Pyromancer decklist that did well in a vintage tournament?
Yes, here are the two Pyromancer decks in the Top 8 of a recent 24 man (Medium Sized event) Vintage event. Also note, the second list didn't lose exactly, the player lost on a penalty he didn't intend to incur as a result of a comment during another match that he didn't intend to be outside assistance.
1st! Rich Shay (The Atog Lord) - Young Americans
// Land
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
7 Blue Fetch
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
// Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
// Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
1 Snapcaster Mage
// Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Gush
4 Preordain
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Regrowth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard
2 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Yixlid Jailor
1 Mountain
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ingot Chewer
Oh! And a list from a 40 man event that happened the same weekend:
Top 4 - Miquel Alcoriza - Pyromancer Gush
Maindeck:
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fastbond
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Preordain
3 Spell Pierce
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
Sideboard:
1 Mountain
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroblast
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
And the same event:
12th - Ferran Relat - Pyromancer Control
Maindeck:
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Delver of Secrets
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Time Walk
Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
Yes, here are the two Pyromancer decks in the Top 8 of a recent 24 man (Medium Sized event) Vintage event. Also note, the second list didn't lose exactly, the player lost on a penalty he didn't intend to incur as a result of a comment during another match that he didn't intend to be outside assistance.
Not bad. Definitely better than what I expected.
Still, I think Young Pyromancer has a long way to go before entering this "two-drop hall of fame". All of the other cards in that "cycle" were powerful in all constructed formats.
Yea, no doubt. He's a solid card and can do a lot of work, but I'd say he's not quite as good as Snapcaster Mage or Dark Confidant that see far more play than him in Vintage. Even Tarmogoyf sees a lot of play in Delver lists, even if he isn't as popular as he was in the past. The only card that really doesn't see as much play in the cycle is Stone Forge Mystic and that's because Trinket Mage is better in a lot of cases, but it still gets some use in the board and main deck at times.
I think Pyromancer will do a decent amount of work, and will see plenty of play, but he'll be more of a Goblin Piledriver than a Dark Confidant.
Would Thalia, Guardian of Thraben make the cut? Staple in Legacy D&T and moderately annoying in any other format where she comes out early.
Part of me was hoping for Ash Zealot as a highly aggressive 2 drop in red with haste, first strike and an anti flashback trigger but I don't really see her in modern now RtR has rotated.
More likely: Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confident and Scavenging Ooze?
In my mind, a hall of fame card should be one that has had significant impact across multiple formats and multiple decks. I think Thalia is strong in the right deck but I dont think it has Stoneforge Mystic beat in terms of versatility in decks and formats it is and or would be played in.
In my mind, the few that can be debated between is mostly going to be Snapcaster Mage vs Gilded Drake. I honestly don't have the Legacy information to know enough to discuss this one which is why I went with Snapcaster. The merfolk lord seems good too but I ruled him out due to being a single format single deck sort of card. I dont know where or how much the drake sees play on the flip side but I know how powerful he is in EDH and I assume he is used as a potential sideboard card vs Show and Tell still. I still think that I would go with snapcaster offhand if in part due to being uneducated on Legacy.
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I think red's 2 drop is easily young pyromancer. Really caught on after treasure cruise and even post banning still see's a lot of play in every format he's legal in. I never liked goblin piledriver in the 2 drop slot for red because it fits in just goblins and even there is pretty poor as it doesn't help you win the game typically it's just winmore.
I don't think thalia belongs either because thalia isn't close to stoneforge in terms of powerlevel and thalia doesn't fit in many decks at all whereas stoneforge can be fit into any white deck usually.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I don't know how "incredibly easy" it is to say that Young Pyromancer is more powerful than Goblin Piledriver. It really depends on what you're trying to do, and there's certainly an argument to be made for both.
In my opinion, the best two drop is Putrid Leech. Most of the mentioned two drops are only strong in combination with special other cards. Arcbound Ravager with artifacs, Dark Confident with cheap cards, Tarmogoyf with different card types and so on. Putrid Leech is strong by itself, because he can be a 4/4 creature at will.
Putrid leech is also 2 colors and therefore does not fit the thread goal of being the best two drop of any color,
Furthermore, many of the mentioned two Drops are only good in constructed. However, Magic consists not just of constructed. Limited is also a very important part of the game. Therefore, the power of a creature has to be judged for limited games as well. Dark Confident for example will certainly contribute to you own death in limited. Putrid Leech is absolutely broken in limited.
Impact over all constructed formats outweighs a card's impact in limited. You do have a point, but the odds of a card being good in every format without getting banned are extremely low, if not nonexistent.
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
Red is definitely still in need of a versatile 2-drop. All of its best 2-drops fit very specific strategies; Goblin Recruiter and Goblin Piledriver are Goblin combo cards, while Keldon Marauders only works in Burn/RDW (IIRC).
Thanks to Syndarion of Aeternal Studios for my sig!
Which (successful) deck plays it?
I don't think he'll quite do as much in Standard, but in Vintage oh baby.
That's interesting. Do you have a link to a Young Pyromancer decklist that did well in a vintage tournament?
Yes, here are the two Pyromancer decks in the Top 8 of a recent 24 man (Medium Sized event) Vintage event. Also note, the second list didn't lose exactly, the player lost on a penalty he didn't intend to incur as a result of a comment during another match that he didn't intend to be outside assistance.
and
Oh! And a list from a 40 man event that happened the same weekend:
And the same event:
Not bad. Definitely better than what I expected.
Still, I think Young Pyromancer has a long way to go before entering this "two-drop hall of fame". All of the other cards in that "cycle" were powerful in all constructed formats.
I think Pyromancer will do a decent amount of work, and will see plenty of play, but he'll be more of a Goblin Piledriver than a Dark Confidant.
In my mind, a hall of fame card should be one that has had significant impact across multiple formats and multiple decks. I think Thalia is strong in the right deck but I dont think it has Stoneforge Mystic beat in terms of versatility in decks and formats it is and or would be played in.
Personally my top choices would be:
W Stoneforge Mystic
G Tarmogoyf
U Snapcaster Mage
R Goblin Piledriver
B Dark Confidant
X Arcbound Ravager
In my mind, the few that can be debated between is mostly going to be Snapcaster Mage vs Gilded Drake. I honestly don't have the Legacy information to know enough to discuss this one which is why I went with Snapcaster. The merfolk lord seems good too but I ruled him out due to being a single format single deck sort of card. I dont know where or how much the drake sees play on the flip side but I know how powerful he is in EDH and I assume he is used as a potential sideboard card vs Show and Tell still. I still think that I would go with snapcaster offhand if in part due to being uneducated on Legacy.
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I don't think thalia belongs either because thalia isn't close to stoneforge in terms of powerlevel and thalia doesn't fit in many decks at all whereas stoneforge can be fit into any white deck usually.
Currently Playing:
Retired
GTarmogoyfG
USnapcaster MageU
WStoneforge MysticW
BDark ConfidantB
RYoung PyromancerR
2Arcbound Ravager2
Fan of Red Raccoon Games in Bloomington, Illinois
KenAlsdorf on MTGO, Wargru on XMage
I don't know how "incredibly easy" it is to say that Young Pyromancer is more powerful than Goblin Piledriver. It really depends on what you're trying to do, and there's certainly an argument to be made for both.
Dark confidant
snapcaster mage
young pyromancer, abbot of keral keep
tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze
stoneforge mystic, thalia, guardian of thraben
arcbound ravager
Impact over all constructed formats outweighs a card's impact in limited. You do have a point, but the odds of a card being good in every format without getting banned are extremely low, if not nonexistent.
And if we're looking at Limited, then forget Putrid Leech -- Pack Rat wins that category easily.