During round five or six of the day, there was some huge commotion concerning a friend of mine and Matt Nass. My friend was piloting RDW, playing against Matt Nass piloting Bant Shaman with Squadron Hawk.
During game two, my friend managed to stick lethal on the board in the form of two Hell's Thunder. At this point, Matt Nass was going to lose without any blockers in the air, so he shouts for a judge.
His complaint was that my friend's Hell's Thunder copies (all four) where "marked". My friend was playing four foil Hell's Thunder, and they were relatively bent in the way how most foils are. That's the entire basis of the complaint Matt Nass had. The problem here is that Matt Nass conveniently noticed this *after* my friend had played all four copies *and* he was about to lose.
The judges literally stop the game for about twenty minutes trying to verify if this was indeed true. They eventually ruled that my friend's copies were too bent, thusly "marked". He was charged a game loss, and they went to game three. They ended up drawing due to time.
~
I felt this was an extremely underhanded and dirty method to avoid a straight game loss by Matt Nass. Ignoring the fact that I knew the RDW player, it was infuriating to watch a rather established pro weasel his way through against a up and coming new player.
Only in Magic tournaments can someone complain to a Judge and get rewarded. It is a sad day when a person can't lose a game with dignity. I have never met Matt Nass but if what you say is true he and all people who take this game too seriously are low class individuals.
The thing is that, while the call was clearly made for personal gain, it was still the right one. The cards are marked. That's against the rules. It's not sportsmanlike, and I wouldn't do the same in that situation, but I don't see how you can really take issue with it beyond that.
During round five or six of the day, there was some huge commotion concerning a friend of mine and Matt Nass. My friend was piloting RDW, playing against Matt Nass piloting Bant Shaman with Squadron Hawk.
During game two, my friend managed to stick lethal on the board in the form of two Hell's Thunder. At this point, Matt Nass was going to lose without any blockers in the air, so he shouts for a judge.
His complaint was that my friend's Hell's Thunder copies (all four) where "marked". My friend was playing four foil Hell's Thunder, and they were relatively bent in the way how most foils are. That's the entire basis of the complaint Matt Nass had. The problem here is that Matt Nass conveniently noticed this *after* my friend had played all four copies *and* he was about to lose.
The judges literally stop the game for about twenty minutes trying to verify if this was indeed true. They eventually ruled that my friend's copies were too bent, thusly "marked". He was charged a game loss, and they went to game three. They ended up drawing due to time.
~
I felt this was an extremely underhanded and dirty method to avoid a straight game loss by Matt Nass. Ignoring the fact that I knew the RDW player, it was infuriating to watch a rather established pro weasel his way through against a up and coming new player.
Opinions and thoughts?
Matt Nass is DIRTY. His opponent smashed him game 1 so he got butt hurt and was a sore loser. They were given fifteen minutes for game three with five turns after that because the ruling took like twenty minutes. At the end of the fifth turn, Matt Nass even tried to convince his opponent that he clearly had the dominant board position and that he should just concede to him. All that Matt had in his hand was Squadron Hawks, and his opponent had Ball Lightning, Hell's thunder, the works. AND Matt's opponent was ahead on life.
Seriously if those thunders were the only foil in the deck as soon as I saw that I'd be judge calling too, especially if it was all 4. Unfortunately this would mean I'd need to see the 4th get played, before I would call for the judge making this situation possible. Furthermore I would have asked for a time extension = to the amount of time on ruling. That way the draw situation vs rdw prolly wouldn't have happened.
In fairness I'm already q'ed so I'm not in this situation, but in the ptq I played in a judge was called at least 5 times in my matches, and by both players. It's just better when judges come over, since rules violations and cheating hell's thunders don't happen.
The thing is that, while the call was clearly made for personal gain, it was still the right one. The cards are marked. That's against the rules. It's not sportsmanlike, and I wouldn't do the same in that situation, but I don't see how you can really take issue with it beyond that.
Would you apply this to any player? There may be a circumstance to this happening that may not be clear to all.
While I disagree with the statement that the cards were marked, I just wonder why was it that Matt Nass noticed this when he was about to lose, and not point it out when it first occurred.
For all we know, Matt Nass might have noticed it immediately game one. Should he not also receive some sort of penalty for failure to notice? From the details given in the aftermath and by miscellaneous by standers, Matt himself shuffled and cut his opponent's deck after each fetchland was cracked.
Is there any consideration for a new player? Matt's opponent looked like a young kid just attending his first PTQ. It looked more like Matt was trying to strong arm his way through by bullying the kid, forcing a game loss on a technicality that no average player could possibly know.
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~~~
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff? Maze's End?
In a more casual game (FNM for instance), had this happened to me, I wouldn't have minded so much. In a Pro Tour Qualifier, he'd be the guest of honor at a blanket party after the game.
Sounds like nass made a name for himself. over where i played i was called out once on my foil mana base the guy was "nice" enough to tell me that in a "real" turnament i would have been disqualified for playing marked cards i was convinced and sad because my good old stack of shiny lands was now destined to never blind another opponent again.
Was nass in his right? Yes, what if he did marked them is there anyway we could tell. Should he had done it game 2? No, it looks cheap and the last minute before a loss its screams desperation and poor sportmanship.
I asure you this is not the first or the last time this kind of unfortunate incident happens. As long as wizards continues to allow decks with a few foils in turnaments players will to take advantage of the rules to their own gain. Easy solution wizards ban foils from turnaments.
I play at Superstars where Matt sometimes frequents, but never have played against the dude or talked to the dude. Let me get that out of the way.
But I never see a good thing said about the dude. They said ever since his win at GP: Oakland, he has changed.
I know it is the rules, but the move sounds like a big Diva move if I have ever seen one. And again why didn't Matt complain about the "marked" cards earlier.
But this has been one of my problems with tournaments. This kind of move to get wins is so beyond good sportsmanship that it is actually quite sickening. I grew up playing competetive sports and sportsmanship was a big part of playing. I still coach competetive basketball and my phrase to kids is "no matter what another person or team is doing that is not in the spirit of the game, we will not sink to that level. We are bigger than that"
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I think it was the right call. However, the timing makes it completely un-sportsmenlike. Why not the turn before, or the one before that? Or the first game? The guy knew, that was for sure, and I doubt it was that second he figured it out. Pity that your friend had to draw against him, because I think winning anyway would be sweet justice.
Nass is the real cheater in this situation manipulating the rules in order to steal a win is not sportsmanlike conduct and shows how bad of a player Nass is if he has to resort to this kind of underhanded stuff. In fact, this stuff goes on too much, where a "pro" who is about to lose to some random guy calls deck check, even if there is nothing wrong, in hopes of getting a DQ because of something neither player noticed.
The thing is that, while the call was clearly made for personal gain, it was still the right one. The cards are marked. That's against the rules. It's not sportsmanlike, and I wouldn't do the same in that situation, but I don't see how you can really take issue with it beyond that.
Just because that is the current "rule" doesn't mean we should be happy with it. IMO it should be changed so that you cannot call out an opponent for bent or marked cards after the game has started, maybe make a each person just do a quick check where they spread their decks out in a gaint fan and if their opponent has any qualms he can call a judge then, but afterwards he is not allowed to, this kind of inspection should allow anyone to catch any marked cards.
The current rule allows for too many "pros" to call deck check as soon as they start losing against a random person in hopes of getting a DQ. This is not how tournament magic should be. Even in this situation the judge should have let the game finish otherwise this ruling doesn't make any sense! Why should he only be issued a game loss on this game? Why not the previous game? He "cheated" then too, also what about the other games where he "cheated" shouldn't the losers of those rounds be awarded some points like Nass because they were "cheated" against just as much, if not more than him!
Also the biggest WTF is why were there not extra time alloted to the game? After a TWENTY MINUTE CHECK???? WTF. Sounds like the Judge is involved in cheating here too, why else in the world would this take twenty mintues to resolve without extra time given? I mean, if this were okay, then people would abuse this to the max! Just stall first game then call deck check after the next game starts, then win due to time!
I watched the "overtime period" and imo reviewing his hand, board position and what his outs could be, he took longer than needed as the match ended in a draw.
If your friend didn't have any other foils besides the hell's thunder then it's easy to see why someone could say they were marked. It's funny that he happened to "notice it" when he was just about to lose. Little grub...
I 100% agree it's the right move, as he might of felt uncomfortable calling marked copies of card before the 3rd and 4th hit. If there are only 4 foils in your deck, and it is something of a utility card, it is sort of marked.
It really sucks your friend drew that way though, really really sucks. But there are many threads saying your deck should be 80%-100% foiled, or none at all. So this WON'T happen.
Judges need to start imposing a unsportsmanlike game loss to people like this. He should have walked up, surveyed the scenario, and noticed that this dude was calling marked cards because he had lethal against him, and at the point, gave them both a game loss, one for marked cards and other for unsportsmanlike conduct. That would cause the frivolous use of calling a judge decrease if players that use the judge to sneak a win on a technicality purposely also get a game loss. It's one thing if the dude calls a judge right away, its another if its used on lethal to avoid a match loss.
Also, shouldn't the foil and marked sleeve issue be a warning with the judge making sure the dude fixes the sleeves or foils while he is watching? Since the rule is 100% ambiguous anyways and mostly just a tool for pro players to cheat newer players, warning should be issued for the first time instead of game losses. DCI is pretty terrible @ this stuff.
Judges need to start imposing a unsportsmanlike game loss to people like this. He should have walked up, surveyed the scenario, and noticed that this dude was calling marked cards because he had lethal against him, and at the point, gave them both a game loss, one for marked cards and other for unsportsmanlike conduct. That would cause the frivolous use of calling a judge decrease if players that use the judge to sneak a win on a technicality purposely also get a game loss. It's one thing if the dude calls a judge right away, its another if its used on lethal to avoid a match loss.
Also, shouldn't the foil and marked sleeve issue be a warning with the judge making sure the dude fixes the sleeves or foils while he is watching? Since the rule is 100% ambiguous anyways and mostly just a tool for pro players to cheat newer players, warning should be issued for the first time instead of game losses. DCI is pretty terrible @ this stuff.
One might make the argument that he had lethal BECAUSE of marked cards.
Marked cards issue is a warning at lower REL. Aren't PTQs competitive REL? It's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with all the rules related to competitive Magic if you choose to attend higher level tournaments.
This is why I don't do tournaments. Usually I see nothing wrong manipulating the system out of necessity or for the greater good but I would consider such an act extremely dishonorable as this move was for neither.
Still, I'd think that anyone who was competing in tournaments would know about the foil problem as it's spelled out quite clearly.
Best advice ever give to me about tourny play... Before the tournament starts, have a judge check your deck. In my opinion DCI needs to institute 2 rules, 1) No foils in a deck, 2) deck checks prior to the start of a tourament. These 2 rules would make the senario at the PTQ cut and dry ruling and not about sportsmanship or personal feelings.
Live and learn. I am willing to bet your friend ever runs foils in a deck again at a big tourament. You probably wont either.
Judges need to start imposing a unsportsmanlike game loss to people like this. He should have walked up, surveyed the scenario, and noticed that this dude was calling marked cards because he had lethal against him, and at the point, gave them both a game loss, one for marked cards and other for unsportsmanlike conduct. That would cause the frivolous use of calling a judge decrease if players that use the judge to sneak a win on a technicality purposely also get a game loss. It's one thing if the dude calls a judge right away, its another if its used on lethal to avoid a match loss.
This would never happen. The DCI will never change any rule that would possibly punish a player for calling a judge on a rules violation.
I'm playing game 2, and I notice something wrong, but I lost game 1. I'm not going to call the judge now, because we both get a game loss and my opponent wins the round anyways, as he'll be up 2-1.
Best advice ever give to me about tourny play... Before the tournament starts, have a judge check your deck. In my opinion DCI needs to institute 2 rules, 1) No foils in a deck, 2) deck checks prior to the start of a tourament. These 2 rules would make the senario at the PTQ cut and dry ruling and not about sportsmanship or personal feelings.
Live and learn. I am willing to bet your friend ever runs foils in a deck again at a big tourament. You probably wont either.
Do you know how horrible both of those rules would be? Making foils illegal would be entirely ridiculous, because then there would be no incentive to buy them, or even print them at all. Also, FNM promos and DCI Judge promos and all of those would be entirely worthless because they can only be played in EDH. Also, I have plenty of foils that aren't warped at all, because I keep them in a very dry environment. Should I have to replace them just because some other people have warped foils? Doesn't seem that fair.
And having a deck check for EVERYONE before the tourney? Have you ever played in New Jersey? We get 300 people each PTQ. They start late as it is. The actual PTQ would start at like, noon if they enacted that rule.
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Marked cards issue is a warning at lower REL. Aren't PTQs competitive REL? It's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with all the rules related to competitive Magic if you choose to attend higher level tournaments.
No, Marked Cards is a Warning at all RELs that the IPG applies to, with the option of an upgrade if the markings could give an advantage if noticed.
From what was said I believe the judges made the right call with the Game Loss, and I (nor almost anyone here) can't determine whether there was a problem with what Matt did, or didn't do. I can only trust that the judges at the event investigated the matter appropriately, and took the relevant action.
During game two, my friend managed to stick lethal on the board in the form of two Hell's Thunder. At this point, Matt Nass was going to lose without any blockers in the air, so he shouts for a judge.
His complaint was that my friend's Hell's Thunder copies (all four) where "marked". My friend was playing four foil Hell's Thunder, and they were relatively bent in the way how most foils are. That's the entire basis of the complaint Matt Nass had. The problem here is that Matt Nass conveniently noticed this *after* my friend had played all four copies *and* he was about to lose.
The judges literally stop the game for about twenty minutes trying to verify if this was indeed true. They eventually ruled that my friend's copies were too bent, thusly "marked". He was charged a game loss, and they went to game three. They ended up drawing due to time.
~
I felt this was an extremely underhanded and dirty method to avoid a straight game loss by Matt Nass. Ignoring the fact that I knew the RDW player, it was infuriating to watch a rather established pro weasel his way through against a up and coming new player.
Opinions and thoughts?
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff?
Maze's End?
While the term you wished to use doesn't actually get censored, you still tried to slip around it. Warned.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=537903
Matt Nass is DIRTY. His opponent smashed him game 1 so he got butt hurt and was a sore loser. They were given fifteen minutes for game three with five turns after that because the ruling took like twenty minutes. At the end of the fifth turn, Matt Nass even tried to convince his opponent that he clearly had the dominant board position and that he should just concede to him. All that Matt had in his hand was Squadron Hawks, and his opponent had Ball Lightning, Hell's thunder, the works. AND Matt's opponent was ahead on life.
Seriously if those thunders were the only foil in the deck as soon as I saw that I'd be judge calling too, especially if it was all 4. Unfortunately this would mean I'd need to see the 4th get played, before I would call for the judge making this situation possible. Furthermore I would have asked for a time extension = to the amount of time on ruling. That way the draw situation vs rdw prolly wouldn't have happened.
In fairness I'm already q'ed so I'm not in this situation, but in the ptq I played in a judge was called at least 5 times in my matches, and by both players. It's just better when judges come over, since rules violations and cheating hell's thunders don't happen.
Would you apply this to any player? There may be a circumstance to this happening that may not be clear to all.
While I disagree with the statement that the cards were marked, I just wonder why was it that Matt Nass noticed this when he was about to lose, and not point it out when it first occurred.
For all we know, Matt Nass might have noticed it immediately game one. Should he not also receive some sort of penalty for failure to notice? From the details given in the aftermath and by miscellaneous by standers, Matt himself shuffled and cut his opponent's deck after each fetchland was cracked.
Is there any consideration for a new player? Matt's opponent looked like a young kid just attending his first PTQ. It looked more like Matt was trying to strong arm his way through by bullying the kid, forcing a game loss on a technicality that no average player could possibly know.
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff?
Maze's End?
Was nass in his right? Yes, what if he did marked them is there anyway we could tell. Should he had done it game 2? No, it looks cheap and the last minute before a loss its screams desperation and poor sportmanship.
I asure you this is not the first or the last time this kind of unfortunate incident happens. As long as wizards continues to allow decks with a few foils in turnaments players will to take advantage of the rules to their own gain. Easy solution wizards ban foils from turnaments.
But I never see a good thing said about the dude. They said ever since his win at GP: Oakland, he has changed.
I know it is the rules, but the move sounds like a big Diva move if I have ever seen one. And again why didn't Matt complain about the "marked" cards earlier.
But this has been one of my problems with tournaments. This kind of move to get wins is so beyond good sportsmanship that it is actually quite sickening. I grew up playing competetive sports and sportsmanship was a big part of playing. I still coach competetive basketball and my phrase to kids is "no matter what another person or team is doing that is not in the spirit of the game, we will not sink to that level. We are bigger than that"
I guess that does not apply to magic.
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kudos to mr nass for calling him out on it, magic needs less cheaters
ps mr nass is a goofy looking dude:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpoak10/welcome
Nass is the real cheater in this situation manipulating the rules in order to steal a win is not sportsmanlike conduct and shows how bad of a player Nass is if he has to resort to this kind of underhanded stuff. In fact, this stuff goes on too much, where a "pro" who is about to lose to some random guy calls deck check, even if there is nothing wrong, in hopes of getting a DQ because of something neither player noticed.
Just because that is the current "rule" doesn't mean we should be happy with it. IMO it should be changed so that you cannot call out an opponent for bent or marked cards after the game has started, maybe make a each person just do a quick check where they spread their decks out in a gaint fan and if their opponent has any qualms he can call a judge then, but afterwards he is not allowed to, this kind of inspection should allow anyone to catch any marked cards.
The current rule allows for too many "pros" to call deck check as soon as they start losing against a random person in hopes of getting a DQ. This is not how tournament magic should be. Even in this situation the judge should have let the game finish otherwise this ruling doesn't make any sense! Why should he only be issued a game loss on this game? Why not the previous game? He "cheated" then too, also what about the other games where he "cheated" shouldn't the losers of those rounds be awarded some points like Nass because they were "cheated" against just as much, if not more than him!
Also the biggest WTF is why were there not extra time alloted to the game? After a TWENTY MINUTE CHECK???? WTF. Sounds like the Judge is involved in cheating here too, why else in the world would this take twenty mintues to resolve without extra time given? I mean, if this were okay, then people would abuse this to the max! Just stall first game then call deck check after the next game starts, then win due to time!
Extra time was given by the judges. Despite that, neither player could seal the win.
Looking at board position at the time, however, the RDW player was winning *and* up on life after the additional five turns.
What deck most resembles playing lands and doing stuff?
Maze's End?
Its unfortunate.
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It really sucks your friend drew that way though, really really sucks. But there are many threads saying your deck should be 80%-100% foiled, or none at all. So this WON'T happen.
Also, shouldn't the foil and marked sleeve issue be a warning with the judge making sure the dude fixes the sleeves or foils while he is watching? Since the rule is 100% ambiguous anyways and mostly just a tool for pro players to cheat newer players, warning should be issued for the first time instead of game losses. DCI is pretty terrible @ this stuff.
One might make the argument that he had lethal BECAUSE of marked cards.
Marked cards issue is a warning at lower REL. Aren't PTQs competitive REL? It's your responsibility to familiarize yourself with all the rules related to competitive Magic if you choose to attend higher level tournaments.
If not, then the cards were definitely marked.
Still, I'd think that anyone who was competing in tournaments would know about the foil problem as it's spelled out quite clearly.
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Live and learn. I am willing to bet your friend ever runs foils in a deck again at a big tourament. You probably wont either.
This would never happen. The DCI will never change any rule that would possibly punish a player for calling a judge on a rules violation.
I'm playing game 2, and I notice something wrong, but I lost game 1. I'm not going to call the judge now, because we both get a game loss and my opponent wins the round anyways, as he'll be up 2-1.
That would be a nightmare for the DCI and Judges.
Do you know how horrible both of those rules would be? Making foils illegal would be entirely ridiculous, because then there would be no incentive to buy them, or even print them at all. Also, FNM promos and DCI Judge promos and all of those would be entirely worthless because they can only be played in EDH. Also, I have plenty of foils that aren't warped at all, because I keep them in a very dry environment. Should I have to replace them just because some other people have warped foils? Doesn't seem that fair.
And having a deck check for EVERYONE before the tourney? Have you ever played in New Jersey? We get 300 people each PTQ. They start late as it is. The actual PTQ would start at like, noon if they enacted that rule.
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No, Marked Cards is a Warning at all RELs that the IPG applies to, with the option of an upgrade if the markings could give an advantage if noticed.
From what was said I believe the judges made the right call with the Game Loss, and I (nor almost anyone here) can't determine whether there was a problem with what Matt did, or didn't do. I can only trust that the judges at the event investigated the matter appropriately, and took the relevant action.