Believe it or not, casuals have more reasons to be casual than just not being able to afford being competitive. Many of us wouldn't/wont indulge even if/though we could. We've seen how the competitive meta plays out and come to the conclusion:
"That doesn't look as fun as the version of Magic I play."
My playgroup and I have had multiple discussions about proxies and each one of them have highlighted two things. Why we don't want to use them and why we don't want to play the version of the game that using proxies would lead to.
A particular person reached out to me recently and argued
"If [cards] didn't cost anything and everyone got to play the format, it would be way better."
-I beg to differ. Allow me to explain.
In short, the pay wall is what keeps the casual meta healthy.
Generally speaking (There are collecting factors for some, of course) cards are more expensive because they're more unbalanced than others. That said, I believe the casual player experiences a more balanced game, because the less balanced cards, combos, and interactions are out of reach.
I simply do not agree with the sentiment or claim that the competitive meta level is a balanced game anymore (I believe it used to be, however). The competitive meta that I have witnessed, read about, and learned about puts more emphasis on removal, disruption, and game-ending combos than anything else.
"But isn't that the whole game? What's missing?"
Aggressive creature-oriented decks are largely missing (They do exist in a few forms, like Red Deck Wins, but generally they are inferior to everything else). You can think they are boring all you want, but that doesn't justify excluding them. You can exclaim
"You just want a boring game of Magic where all players play aggro solitaire"
You'd be wrong. In fact, all types of players could throw that toxic vitriol at each other. I could say the same thing about tutor-combo decks. That they just want to play "Who gets their combo off first" solitaire... and I'd also be wrong.
So no, that isn't what we want. We don't want a meta that is ALL or NOTHING one way or another. I want a balance of everything and Magic isn't balanced right now in any format outside of Standard. Aggressive creature decks too easily get mangled and disrupted into oblivion by cheap board wipes, counter spells, and removal or are just plain outpaced by combos that pop off in the first three turns. Does that mean there should be NO interaction? No wipes, counters, or removal? NO, it just means there's way too much of it for one third of the game to be viable. (Aggro/Control/Combo)
What happens in a situation like that? People stop playing aggro and what you're left with are two kinds of decks being played instead of three (Stax & Combo).
Casual players want absolutely nothing to do with an unbalanced expensive game that boils down to:
"I mulligan'd to 5 and still didn't get my combo, so I scoop"
"I got my combo, but you Force of Will'd it, so I lose/scoop"
"I got my combo and win on turn [1/2/3]"
"I got my combo, but you got yours first, so I lose"
Which is how I imagine 95% of competitive games go. That's an unhealthy unbalanced, and dare I say, dreadfully boring game from our perspective.
As for proxies, they just lead to casual players inevitably entering that very realm. I don't want to play that game. I want a game where Mono Green Stompy and Sligh still have viability. So no proxies for me or my friends. We like our little kitchen table meta JUST the way it is.
Can it be fixed? Yes, but the real question is, WILL it be fixed? And the answer is a big certain NO. It would require an extensive expansion of the ban-lists, starting with the essential pieces of each combo that can win on the first three turns, all of the tutors cheaper than Diabolic, a long list of 1-drop removal, and a large list of board wipes.
That will never happen, as a large portion of the player-base have spoken in favor of the current unbalanced iteration of the game. If Wizards/Hasbro did that, many that like to play the current farce would quit and there's less profit in that. So competitive Magic will never NOT be a farce unfortunately. The best we can do is just stay away from both proxies and bloated spending budgets so that our games can still be creative, healthy, and fun.
edhrec has a list of cards that players likely consider "salty" Salty cards and produce not enjoyable games.
The banned-list of Commander is pretty pointless in that regard, as there are much much more cards that are legal and cards that are banned that would not be an issue.
If a group wants a very casual approach its a good idea to not include any salty cards.
But what a salty card means can be quite different from person to person, communication is key, ensure people have the same understanding.
The "top cards" top cards are also a thing. They are not expensive, but usually so good that decks tend to include them sooner or later, as most are just generally good for almost any deck that could play them.
If you want to enforce more diversity you can also say these are all banned, so people have to get more creative.
edhrec website also has a ton of deck lists and can tell you what kind of combos and cards are usually included in the color combinations and for each commander. Its quite comprehensive in that regard, and reaches from super competitive decks to very casual ones.
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The monetary aspect is basically void if a player is willing to invest at least "something" into a format.
And as long as you sell the cards before the value crashes, you also keep your money.
For stores that take cards as credit, people can invest one time and stay afloat for a long time to play standard only (especially if they win some credit it can even become positive for them).
For older cards, the expensive ones even increase in value in lots of cases (unless its a card that gets reprinted to oblivion by WotC, in which case, you just lose).
If you bought a bunch of Legacy or even Vintage decks just 5+ years ago, you made quite a lot of money by just having them.
Buying into the game out of nowhere is a bad idea anyway.
A new player is totally fine just drafting and playing standard, and for play-testing proxy cards are absolutely preferred (good color prints, unreadable pieces of paper are just annoying).
If you have a deck you want to play, buy into the cards, starting with the cards that are most useful for other decks too (like lands), then the more specialized cards.
That serves the most player and basically anybody that is willing to play can do that.
Some people have the expectation to have a complete collection of all cards in a format, which they can do if they enjoy that collectable aspect of the game, but its a horrible bad approach if they are on a budget.
Simply having "friends" to play with helps too, as players have different card pools and can share and trade with each other.
So if someone build a deck or multiples, they can just give it to a friend to play ... which also drastically reduces the money needed to play.
Building decks for older format is also not particularly "competitive" in a sense.
A lot of Legacy players have a "pet deck" and they play it a long long LONG time, making small adjustments.
It doesnt need to be a real tier 1 deck, they just enjoy the deck and stick to it no matter what with cards they have or cards they want to play in other formats.
Its also a long term thing to build decks for older formats, slowly buying fetchlands and dual lands, people take years to complete a deck and then they enjoy it even more, as it took so long to complete it (some get cards for their birthday, christmas or some get cards as gifts for finishing school and all that).
All that commitment can make you enjoy the game a lot more, as you are quite literally financially committed to it (and like i said, for old cards that are reserved list, they will increase in value even, so its not a bad investment ; but do everything to not get them stolen, watch your stuff like a hawk at all times).
People that have expensive cards tend to play with people they know, not just random people.
Very expensive EDH decks can cost 10,000 $ and even more, which is quite crazy with a table of 4 players, you better be absolutely sure these people are not going to rob you (and that trust forges a playgroup).
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Playing with super expensive cards is a risk on its own.
So 500+ $ cards i tend to proxy, like dual lands, even having them.
Cards you give away on a table, like a Gilded Drake, i also dont like others handling my cards if i can avoid it, so again, Proxy cards do the job (colored prints, no issues).
If you have cards with a story, they carry a nostalgia and sentimental value.
You might know the moment, the circumstances and the person you traded the card with, or you won it in a tournament (like i did my power 9) , you will never want to trade them if you dont have to.
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Regarding competitive play and casual, budget is a bad form of "balancing" , as sometimes specific good cards can be expensive, and what is exactly expensive is very different from player to player.
Some will buy a Commander preconstructed deck box and just make small adjustments, they are not competitive decks in the slightest, but if all play the same game its fine, so balancing the powerlevel to a playgroup is much more important than what the format would allow.
A competitive EDH table has a lot of proxy cards in most areas, as the goal is to play the best deck possible, not playing cards simply because they are expensive would kinda defeat the competitive nature.
But frankly, most of the "expensive" cards are pretty much format allstars that any deck wants to play.
With the increased popularity of Commander and competitive EDH as well, cards got quite a bit more expensive, just in last 2+ years lots of cards basically doubled in price.
If your goal in a group is to have creative decks, or play on a budget, that can be done too, as a general rule for everyone.
There are people that build decks for all kinds of restrictions, like picking only 3 artists and cards from them, so suddenly the artwork is relevant of the cards (makes you find all kinds of reprints and promo versions you might otherwise never looked at).
Picking a list of card price tags and deciding to play on a budget is also a challenge.
Building a Commander deck with a 100$ budget is completely different from a 500$ budget.
There are also people that want to play their power 9 , play with miss-prints (or even "only" miss-prints) and all kinds of special cards, thats much more of a nostalgia trip than its competitive, but you also see cards you would have never seen otherwise (like a blue Hurricane, Blue Hurricane).
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Competitive EDH is shock full of combo decks and very different game plans to casual tables.
That means decks pack a lot of disruptions and stax pieces that stop combo decks.
Competitive decks also know a metagame, so you dont face completely random cards, you basically know what the other decks are up to and what their plan to win is.
If all 4 players bring a "actual" honestly competitive deck, its quite balanced.
Every deck is capable of crazy starts, but then 3 opponents are about to stop them, and its much more a political game what cards hurt you less than the opponents, so you dont have to deal with everything, as long as you are not shut out of the game completely. Going for the win is dangerous, as most of the time the player that goes for it first is facing all the disruption of the table and most likely fails, then the next player can combo much more easily as the table wasted their spells ; so the first player has to take that into consideration when the road is free to blast off.
The format is interesting on its own rights, as the top bunch of competitive decks form quite a metagame, for players that are truly interested and invested to be as competitive as possible.
Sadly, on lots of casual tables some player decides to build a competitive combo decks, while the other 3 build casual fun decks, so thats quite pointless, as the players dont play the same format at that point.
Its a completely different format cEDH, and traditional "aggro" decks basically dont exist, you need ways to stop opponents from winning quickly and bring weapons to the table that are not pathetic (if everyone uses laser guns, dont try to beat them with a wooden stick).
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So all that said, the important part is to make absolutely sure the playgroup knows what they want in a game and then make rules to archive that, the most fun for everyone.
Money comes and goes, people will get more money over time and its totally fine if people want to play competitive, but then they need a playgroup that is also into competitive games, otherwise they play different formats and have no fun either way.
Which meta/format? Vintage,Legacy,Modern,Pioneer,Historic,Standard,Pauper,Penny Dreadful,Commander,Brawl,Cube,Free-for-all?
As stated above. Have your group come up with a list of "banned" cards for your format/playgroup.
OR.... Create alternate wincons for your group. First player with XX creatures on the board wins, first player XX amount of power on the board wins. First player to cast XX sorceries wins. Get creative.
As it sits this game is very much geared to pay to win in competitive formats. Have your group set a budget for decks then. Make it work for you and your enjoyment will go way up.
Private Mod Note
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I use proxies for some cards. I try not to rely on them too much, because I'm the only one who does (and the only one who even uses sleeves) and it still costs money for the ink to print them, but it's nice for being able to play with cards that are expensive and can't easily be replaced by something cheaper, such as Doubling Season. I do feel like making pretty much anything competitive sucks most of the fun out of it, though, often for multiple reasons. That's certainly true for MTG.
Games are always meant to be competitive. They are by definition a "competition". Now how and what you compete for are then the key ingredients in your playgroup. Decide what that is, what the parameters are and then don't let the competition spoil the fun. Again, let the group set what "winning" a game is. Maybe its having the most creatures out after X turns. Maybe its whoever never attacked a single turn after X turns, whatever. Building a deck with restrictions that it is weak or even cannot win would bore me personally to tears. I wouldn't play, but maybe your group likes that. Consider Commander then. The fun about being a Casual is you are not bound by restrictions and can set your own house rules. Good luck and have fun.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Simplest thing to do is just set a maximum deck value - money-wise - for the decks you all play with each other in your play group. Like say every deck has to be no more than $50 - this will help police itself, and you'll still have fun trying to make your decks as competitive as possible.
Our edh playgroup started to feel a little stale so we brought it our own limitations.
We don't tutor outside of mana fixing.
We don't play cards in decks that allow infinite combos.
We allow powerful salt inducing cards but we nearly always play 4 player games so the games seem to be longer and a little more variable. When a player gets something strong they often find themselves playing the arch-enemy.
It's also had the upside of reducing the cost of decent decks considerably whilst encouraging stranger plays.
We mostly play together but when new players come into our group they experience magic how we play it and either love it or hate it.
Magic is a game for everyone, if people want to play combos/proxies that's fine. It doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game but it's not how I prefer to play.
I think one of the main appeals to EDH/Commander is that it's relatively easy to tailor your group to the experience people wanna have rather than having always the most powerful, tuned decks. Because of that it doesn't always end up as an arms race, thus why you won't really need proxies. I find someone becoming arch enemy is often the case when they're seen as too strong
I feel you.
Competitive Magic being what it is, sometimes many among us need to power-down.
I also agree that proxies are never a solution and I don't support their usage.
At the very least, commander decks should have collector or international edition cards, or championship deck (black back) cards. At least those are officially printed by WotC. Case in point...There has to be a limiting factor in deck building, and we can't simply pretend as if we all "magically" (pardon the pun) have an unlimited personal supply of every card printed for the sake of wanting to play particular builds. To delude ourselves into believing that's the case literally undermines everything about the collectability aspect of the game pieces itself. Who in their right mind wants to play or invest into a "collectible" card game when every piece look like Fletch?
I, like many players may want to play certain cards (in particular, certain Reserved List lands) in many or every commander deck. However, if I don't have a physical copy of a card for a deck (and yes, I'm still missing many such cards which I'm slowly chasing down), it's not virtually in that deck in the interim either because I've decided or declared its eventual inclusion is my intention. I wait. It's a matter of principle, maintaining goals, being true to myself, being honest with my collection, and learning how to manage an inventory. Ironically, some of the cards which I'm still missing and wish I got a few years ago (Bazaars, Workshops, Chains, Moat, etc) are now getting so expensive that I wouldn't risk playing them outside my own living room even if I eventually acquire them).
Commander is indeed always fun and "casual", but even that gets ridiculous at times, arguably even more so than modern and legacy since banned cards may find themselves in opening hands often giving said players huge early advantages (unless plays are mirrored by equally accelerating responses). Admittedly, many of my own decks are brokentuned, include mana crypts among other "auto-include" staples (or "top cards" as linked above, though I don't run or agree with every card on that list being "necessary" in decks of particular colors or archtypes, however popular they may have become). Building a few decks which are intentionally powered-down and omit such cards as previously suggested is one way to go (tribal decks with no infinite combos are good). Alternatively, playing newer precons out the box which haven't been modified or which have very minor modification (say 5 land and 5 non-land cards) could be a solution to create the ideal games you're looking for.
Other Suggestions...
Play duel decks
I bought many pairings years ago as they got released specifically because they're ready to go, were fairly cheap upon release, balanced, don't create games which end too quickly, and are great for teaching new players the game. In their absence since discontinuation, I suppose Challenger or Brawl decks may be what you want now.
Sealed deck
Who doesn't enjoy Limited?
Trade in some singles you haven't used in years and don't plan to build with anytime soon (you probably have much more value in your spare bulk boxes than you realize), get a booster box or two, and make up for the lost prerelease events when able. Want to make it even simpler? get a box of Jump/Start and the decks are halfway there.
Play on Arena
Everyone doesn't have every card unlocked so decks are naturally less competitive, at least until you hit higher ranking which can take time. If you enjoy grinding ladders to unlock cards and gold while being forced to use practical mono-colored decks or improvise creatively with a limited card pool by anticipating the opposition and building to counter the meta in best-of-ones, this could be fun.
When all else fails and you get frustrated with the competitive post-modern power-creep, build a casual cube to draft with your playgroup.
That's honestly the best way to control the power level of possible decks, abilities, and interactions in the meta, and you'll all be able to enjoy games which don't end abruptly by turn 3.
Lastly, If Magic is becoming a big source of frustration (for any reason), you could always take a step back, and...play another game entirely?
Nothing helps me forget about the annoyances of getting thoughtseized or mana screwed like a good old game of Chess or Go.
Lately, I've also been spending less time playing Magic in favor of Fallout 76, Star Trek Online, and WWE 2k20 on Xbox One (and anyone who wants my gamertag for Xbox or Magic Arena can pm me).
Even a player like myself who loves playing tournaments sometimes gets burnt out on events and wants to play just casual Magic. It does happen for me occasionally
I think prereleases are pretty popular among casual players (at least in my area) because they can often level the playing field in a sense. Sealed eliminates the "pay to win" aspect where people who wanna win will just buy into expensive decks. Sealed gives everyone the same chance to open a crazy pool and at prerelease the format may not always be as solved as it will later become.
I know a few people who would only play duel decks against each other because they found that more balanced.
I think one of the main appeals to EDH/Commander is that it's relatively easy to tailor your group to the experience people wanna have rather than having always the most powerful, tuned decks. Because of that it doesn't always end up as an arms race, thus why you won't really need proxies. I find someone becoming arch enemy is often the case when they're seen as too strong
a casual group turning into an "arms race". I've seen this happen once, and eventually people had decks that looked and played similar to each other, which made the game boring. Our playgroup got bored, and some quit temporarily. When we got together again, we used tribal theme for casual play, so now our decks all look different - goblins, dinoasaur, elves, eldrazi, etc.. and the casual table is fun again.
I also agree that proxies are never a solution and I don't support their usage.
Do you mean proxy or counterfeit? There is a distinction there.
I can sharpie Overgrown Tomb on a Forest and that is a proxy. I can print a Tarmogoyf off a website, cut it to shape and slide it in sleeve over a Grizzly Bear and it is a proxy.
A counterfeit card purchased on the gray market can be used as a proxy as well. Is this what you are referring to? That distinction really needs to be made between the two. One is a harmless legal action, the other is a property "crime".
It could be someone in the OP playgroup would love to play a certain deck and a certain card would make that deck function extremely well but lets say it costs 50 dollars a piece. A proxy would let that player enjoy that deck. But his/her playgroup won't allow it. And that is understandable but if I were that player I might think twice and act on being in that playgroup unless some compromise could be made.
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I also agree that proxies are never a solution and I don't support their usage.
Do you mean proxy or counterfeit? There is a distinction there.
I can sharpie Overgrown Tomb on a Forest and that is a proxy. I can print a Tarmogoyf off a website, cut it to shape and slide it in sleeve over a Grizzly Bear and it is a proxy.
A counterfeit card purchased on the gray market can be used as a proxy as well. Is this what you are referring to? That distinction really needs to be made between the two. One is a harmless legal action, the other is a property "crime".
It could be someone in the OP playgroup would love to play a certain deck and a certain card would make that deck function extremely well but lets say it costs 50 dollars a piece. A proxy would let that player enjoy that deck. But his/her playgroup won't allow it. And that is understandable but if I were that player I might think twice and act on being in that playgroup unless some compromise could be made.
I understand the distinction and abhor both (albeit the latter more than the former), because unfortunately, what often starts with one or two proxies in a deck becomes a slippery slope, and then before you know it 10-50% of the deck is Sharpied lands. I've seen people playing decks like that in stores, and it's ridiculous to watch or participate in such (mind) games. I mean, you're not even suggesting Bayou, or suggesting that someone who owns a bayou but doesn't want to damage it proxies a forest in its stead while keeping the original in their binder/box/safe/vault (this I consider understandable and somewhat acceptable for cards now worth over $1000, which is a reasonable threshold, again, so long as the person actually owns said cards and can prove it). Are Overgrown Tombs (a card which has only gone down in price with each reprint) so unaffordable even with the recent reprint and after rotating out of Standard? If so, then I'm sorry to say that top-tier (commander, modern, or pioneer) Magic just isn't for you. I apologize if that sounds elitist (you'd probably think I am since my RTR playset are foils and most of my originals are signed; which I only bought after returning from hiatus in 2010), and I can only assume that someone who isn't buying tombs isn't buying fetchlands either, but think about it this way... Just because someone has a golf bag, a driver, and a friend who wants to be their caddy, that doesn't mean they're entitled to play on any golf course they want for free either which normally charges thousands of dollars in annual membership fees. It may suck and seem unfair (alas, Magic, like life isn't fair), but you can still enjoy the game of golf on the public course (but it still doesn't mean you can borrow irons or other equipment from other golfers if that equipment isn't in your bag), the same way as you can enjoy Magic with restrictions on game pieces and power-level (ie: playing: Arena, Pauper, Peasant, Brawl, or mono-colored decks which don't "need" ABUR duals (to be optimized). The card accessibility argument for those living in smaller towns doesn't even hold up anymore now that players are no longer dependent on their LGS and can simply order virtually any card online from countless suppliers. All they need is an internet connection, and a credit card, a debit account, or Paypal. Don't have an internet connection? Well, that sucks too, but then that person clearly has bigger priorities than trying to get overgrown tombs.
Quite frankly, if someone who claims they want to be a competitive commander player isn't able to afford (or more accurately, isn't willing) to purchase overgrown tomb (or doesn't even want to trade for it, and let's be honest, we all have spare inventory for trade which we don't use but often have a difficult time letting go of regardless), then honestly, they really have no business or excuse for playing it proxied in a physical deck (beyond their own kitchen table). When I go to a store, and sit down with decks which took me over a decade to perfect, the last thing I want to see (even if it's not a sanctioned event) is a dozen Sharpied basic lands amongst my opponents' board states. It makes the game state more difficult to read, but more importantly, it undermines my deck-building efforts and makes me feel like "Why should I bother buying the cards I want to play with when so many others in the community seemingly believe or feel it's their entitled birthright to play with cards they haven't even opened in packs, bought, or traded for?")
We all have budgets, and admittedly, mine may be more than the average player's (in the absence of other expenses, such as a car since I don't drive). Regardless, we all make choices, cuts, and prioritize some cards over others. I myself haven't Sharpied any basics to represent new DFC duals or the Battlebond duals, many of which I haven't picked up yet (Indeed I will eventually, when prices drop). Could they better optimize some of my decks today? Sure! There's no denying it. Several of my commander decks (I have 23 and counting at the moment) are also still missing: wasteland, mana crypt, wheel of fortune, vesuva, revised duals, gaea's cradle, assassin's trophy, vampiric tutor (in fact, none of my black decks have imperial seal), time spiral, and other arguably "auto-include" cards), but until I "bite the bullet" and decide to pay for them, trade into them, or charge them to my credit card, I leave the decks as is (often with slightly inferior placeholders which have similar effects if they exist) commit to restricting any playtesting with cards I don't yet have physical copies of to Cockatrice which provides players the ability to build decks with such cards before actually getting physical copies. It's indeed conflicting because my inner perfectionist wants every deck to be optimized, but fooling myself with proxies means I'm only lying to myself and taking away the goal I'm trying to achieve, which is actually acquiring those cards (which I technically wouldn't have to do if I could easily justify using Sharpied forests as you and others apparently do). Oh well, at least I had the foresight to buy enough memory jars and copies of intuition for $20 before they spiked.)
Why haven't I bought other staple and/or reserved list cards? Good question! As mentioned, we all have budgets with limits, and I've allocated my Magic budget for other cards, ironically, including two foil TSR goyfs which I couldn't resist preordering yesterday at the opening bid as soon as they were priced and put up for sale online (but don't desperately "need" per say, since I already have a non-foil mixed playset, one copy of which is in French), but I bought them anyway because the price was good in lieu of countless other cards which I've had my eyes on for awhile but haven't gotten around to picking up yet for various reasons. Ultimately, for me, it comes down to a price to available quantity to time sensitivity assessment. How fast are opther people buying up certain cards? Which ones can I buy in larger quantities and trade back in 6-12 months at a profit to gets others I want which had since gone down? etc. Lots of questions, numbers to crunch, risks, and believe me...it's no easy formula or calculation. I trust my instincts. If they fail me, so be it. I buy cards when I feel they're at their lowest point. Sometimes that involves preordering, other times it involves waiting for hype around new cards to subside or for older ones to be outclassed (or "split" with color-shifted or functionally identical reprints). Meanwhile, older cards (decent ones) appreciate quicker than new ones (we all know this) and become further and further out of reach, but we all still have to accept the fact that consciously or subconsciously we're choosing not to buy certain cards whilst they're available at certain prices. We all know the player base is increasing an the market is fickle but many among us buy into the Standard power-creep anyways (even though we may be getting some of those cards for other formats). However, just because I'm buying new foils (I also pre-ordered two akroma's memorials which I've never had a foil of before), that doesn't give me the right to proxy RL cards (bayou or otherwise) which I may have neglected or deprioritized in the interim. The onus, and I would even say the responsibility lies within each of us as players (of a collectible card game, the key word being "collectible") to ensure we have all the game pieces with which we'd like to play this game, in whichever formats, archetypes, and levels of competition which are most intriguing or alluring to us.
Building up a collection and completing optimized decks (especially commander) is a long, grindy, incremental process, not something to be short-cutted with a marker or a printer. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I actually consider my Magic collection to be my "life's work" (started playing at 13 years old, and I'm 40 now). Is it my "retirement fund"? Inadvertently perhaps, but that was never the goal. The goal was owning the ultimate collection, not necessarily every card ever printed, but enough copies of the cards which I like to build all the decks I've ever wanted while having leftovers to eventually sell and recoup my investment so the decks and cubes I want to keep when all else is gone eventually will have never costed me a penny. Too ambitious? Perhaps, but it's realistically plausible, if (and only if) you're willing to be patient, buy low, and sell high when the time is right.
Even if it takes years to complete a deck....You might even say that it's part of the fun and necessary to feel a sense of accomplishment once the deck is finished and ready to be played to its full potential. Do you really feel satisfied winning with a Sharpied land or some combination of differently Sharpied lands? No. I'm sorry. That's not how Magic is played or how games should be won. Don't misinterpret...I sympathize for players who were late to the game or not born sooner at no fault of their own when some cards were cheaper and easier to get. I'm not saying I like the idea of "pay to win" games either (which is why I also have powered down decks for multiple formats when facing opponents who don't have all the staples to compete with top tier builds). However, I still don't understand why someone who just started playing Magic a year or two or five ago should randomly get full and free access to all the cards (especially the older ones they're not able or wiling to buy) which I and other players like me have had to tirelessly track down, accumulate, trade back and forth, and spend countless hours and thousands of dollars on over a decades-long period in order to play them.
EDIT: This is what Sharpied cards are supposed to look like...
You'd be surprised how much money I've spent on MTG through the years and how much my collection is "worth". If the prices tanked I may be a bit bummed but I would look forward to owning and collecting more cards then.
You are coming off as a spoiled rich brat, I'd suggest you tone it down. Nobody but yourself cares about how much you spend. Swing your e-wiener in someones elses face. Don't bother with me responding to you again from this point, I always put people like you on my ignore list, where you belong.
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(motleyslayer):
Warning for flaming
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
as for the issue on proxies.. our playgroup is rather casual. It's just me, my brother, 4 cousins, and two other friends.. but it's very rare to see anyone using proxies in actual play. Actually, cannot remember playing against any proxied deck. If don't have a card.. will substitute it with what I do have.. for example, don't have any Unbreakable Formation for knights deck, so I used Brave the elements or Glorious anthem instead in those two slots. It's casual anyway, so there's nothing at stake and let's have fun.
It's casual anyway, so there's nothing at stake and let's have fun.
And therein lies the truth. Its for fun so proxy or don't proxy. If your group has fun without proxies so be it. No need to berate or belittle people that decided to proxy up cards or decks to play a game for fun as a certain snobby elitist in this thread. I would suggest using a proxy until you purchase the card, why put a limit or boundary on your "fun"? You could find out you actually don't want the card after playtesting it and save your money then. I have done this in the past on several occasions and glad I have. Don't shackle yourself, have more fun.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
In my world Proxies are fine. I run a few that I don't own, but it's not a ton and it's for casual fun games among friends. I don't go crazy with them and have a 50% deck. That said, I do proxy my duals (yes, I own them all), but I don't like to constantly move them around decks and most of them are in Legacy decks where I need to have the originals. It's also prudent to not be shuffling $5000 in duals in a 99 card deck all the time.
Most people don't proxy to avoid buying cards, but rather to test them. But honestly, if done well, I have no problem with a 100% proxied deck. I don't need people to spend a ton to have fun with a group of casuals.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
My playgroup doesn't run proxies (and if someone joins us, we don't allow them to run proxies either), as it would lead to an arms race that no one wants to happen. Eventually everyone would decide to just run 4 Black Lotuses in every deck, and games would devolve into Turn 0 nonsense. Not to mention how difficult it would be to keep track of the board state of 5 players all running sharpied lands as their decks.
If you use proxy cards, they should basically always be colored prints, that look exactly like a normal card.
Proxy cards written by hand are quite cancer to play with.
That is how I do it for the most part. But I have access to a color printer as well. Color ink cartridges aren't cheap either. I would never begrudge someone for using a sharpie marked proxy if their finances don't allow them the luxury of a computer/printer/color ink cartridges to print proxies. This is a game, not a beauty contest.
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(motleyslayer):
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
If you use proxy cards, they should basically always be colored prints, that look exactly like a normal card.
Proxy cards written by hand are quite cancer to play with.
That is how I do it for the most part. But I have access to a color printer as well. Color ink cartridges aren't cheap either. I would never begrudge someone for using a sharpie marked proxy if their finances don't allow them the luxury of a computer/printer/color ink cartridges to print proxies. This is a game, not a beauty contest.
I always at least try to use black and white printed proxies. That said, I do have a Bloodstained Mire in my Nekusar deck that is a sharpied mountain. Funny thing is I have one I could use from a legacy deck, but at this point it's just kind of a joke... lol
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
If you're going to sharpie a basic as a placeholder, at the very least please use a land that does not match the color of your deck. E.g. It's utter nonsense for a mono-black deck to use Swamp marked as a Guardian Beast (or whatever). Use a Plains or something else so there's no way for anyone to potentially misunderstand the board state. Even better, use white boarder lands if you don't use them otherwise - anything to aid in indicating that one of these things is not like the others.
In the past when I have proxied via sharpie on a common I have even tried to find a bulk card with the same color(s), same cmc and even same card type as to not make it overly "ugly". In my playgroup I always ask if they are okay with a few proxies and even offer to reveal them if they want to see them. Proxy etiquette is a must. Having a color printer makes the proxying far easier and more aesthetically pleasing. But again not everyone has that luxury.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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"That doesn't look as fun as the version of Magic I play."
My playgroup and I have had multiple discussions about proxies and each one of them have highlighted two things. Why we don't want to use them and why we don't want to play the version of the game that using proxies would lead to.
A particular person reached out to me recently and argued
"If [cards] didn't cost anything and everyone got to play the format, it would be way better."
-I beg to differ. Allow me to explain.
In short, the pay wall is what keeps the casual meta healthy.
Generally speaking (There are collecting factors for some, of course) cards are more expensive because they're more unbalanced than others. That said, I believe the casual player experiences a more balanced game, because the less balanced cards, combos, and interactions are out of reach.
I simply do not agree with the sentiment or claim that the competitive meta level is a balanced game anymore (I believe it used to be, however). The competitive meta that I have witnessed, read about, and learned about puts more emphasis on removal, disruption, and game-ending combos than anything else.
"But isn't that the whole game? What's missing?"
Aggressive creature-oriented decks are largely missing (They do exist in a few forms, like Red Deck Wins, but generally they are inferior to everything else). You can think they are boring all you want, but that doesn't justify excluding them. You can exclaim
"You just want a boring game of Magic where all players play aggro solitaire"
You'd be wrong. In fact, all types of players could throw that toxic vitriol at each other. I could say the same thing about tutor-combo decks. That they just want to play "Who gets their combo off first" solitaire... and I'd also be wrong.
So no, that isn't what we want. We don't want a meta that is ALL or NOTHING one way or another. I want a balance of everything and Magic isn't balanced right now in any format outside of Standard. Aggressive creature decks too easily get mangled and disrupted into oblivion by cheap board wipes, counter spells, and removal or are just plain outpaced by combos that pop off in the first three turns. Does that mean there should be NO interaction? No wipes, counters, or removal? NO, it just means there's way too much of it for one third of the game to be viable. (Aggro/Control/Combo)
What happens in a situation like that? People stop playing aggro and what you're left with are two kinds of decks being played instead of three (Stax & Combo).
Casual players want absolutely nothing to do with an unbalanced expensive game that boils down to:
"I mulligan'd to 5 and still didn't get my combo, so I scoop"
"I got my combo, but you Force of Will'd it, so I lose/scoop"
"I got my combo and win on turn [1/2/3]"
"I got my combo, but you got yours first, so I lose"
Which is how I imagine 95% of competitive games go. That's an unhealthy unbalanced, and dare I say, dreadfully boring game from our perspective.
As for proxies, they just lead to casual players inevitably entering that very realm. I don't want to play that game. I want a game where Mono Green Stompy and Sligh still have viability. So no proxies for me or my friends. We like our little kitchen table meta JUST the way it is.
Can it be fixed? Yes, but the real question is, WILL it be fixed? And the answer is a big certain NO. It would require an extensive expansion of the ban-lists, starting with the essential pieces of each combo that can win on the first three turns, all of the tutors cheaper than Diabolic, a long list of 1-drop removal, and a large list of board wipes.
That will never happen, as a large portion of the player-base have spoken in favor of the current unbalanced iteration of the game. If Wizards/Hasbro did that, many that like to play the current farce would quit and there's less profit in that. So competitive Magic will never NOT be a farce unfortunately. The best we can do is just stay away from both proxies and bloated spending budgets so that our games can still be creative, healthy, and fun.
The banned-list of Commander is pretty pointless in that regard, as there are much much more cards that are legal and cards that are banned that would not be an issue.
If a group wants a very casual approach its a good idea to not include any salty cards.
But what a salty card means can be quite different from person to person, communication is key, ensure people have the same understanding.
The "top cards" top cards are also a thing. They are not expensive, but usually so good that decks tend to include them sooner or later, as most are just generally good for almost any deck that could play them.
If you want to enforce more diversity you can also say these are all banned, so people have to get more creative.
edhrec website also has a ton of deck lists and can tell you what kind of combos and cards are usually included in the color combinations and for each commander. Its quite comprehensive in that regard, and reaches from super competitive decks to very casual ones.
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The monetary aspect is basically void if a player is willing to invest at least "something" into a format.
And as long as you sell the cards before the value crashes, you also keep your money.
For stores that take cards as credit, people can invest one time and stay afloat for a long time to play standard only (especially if they win some credit it can even become positive for them).
For older cards, the expensive ones even increase in value in lots of cases (unless its a card that gets reprinted to oblivion by WotC, in which case, you just lose).
If you bought a bunch of Legacy or even Vintage decks just 5+ years ago, you made quite a lot of money by just having them.
Buying into the game out of nowhere is a bad idea anyway.
A new player is totally fine just drafting and playing standard, and for play-testing proxy cards are absolutely preferred (good color prints, unreadable pieces of paper are just annoying).
If you have a deck you want to play, buy into the cards, starting with the cards that are most useful for other decks too (like lands), then the more specialized cards.
That serves the most player and basically anybody that is willing to play can do that.
Some people have the expectation to have a complete collection of all cards in a format, which they can do if they enjoy that collectable aspect of the game, but its a horrible bad approach if they are on a budget.
Simply having "friends" to play with helps too, as players have different card pools and can share and trade with each other.
So if someone build a deck or multiples, they can just give it to a friend to play ... which also drastically reduces the money needed to play.
Building decks for older format is also not particularly "competitive" in a sense.
A lot of Legacy players have a "pet deck" and they play it a long long LONG time, making small adjustments.
It doesnt need to be a real tier 1 deck, they just enjoy the deck and stick to it no matter what with cards they have or cards they want to play in other formats.
Its also a long term thing to build decks for older formats, slowly buying fetchlands and dual lands, people take years to complete a deck and then they enjoy it even more, as it took so long to complete it (some get cards for their birthday, christmas or some get cards as gifts for finishing school and all that).
All that commitment can make you enjoy the game a lot more, as you are quite literally financially committed to it (and like i said, for old cards that are reserved list, they will increase in value even, so its not a bad investment ; but do everything to not get them stolen, watch your stuff like a hawk at all times).
People that have expensive cards tend to play with people they know, not just random people.
Very expensive EDH decks can cost 10,000 $ and even more, which is quite crazy with a table of 4 players, you better be absolutely sure these people are not going to rob you (and that trust forges a playgroup).
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Playing with super expensive cards is a risk on its own.
So 500+ $ cards i tend to proxy, like dual lands, even having them.
Cards you give away on a table, like a Gilded Drake, i also dont like others handling my cards if i can avoid it, so again, Proxy cards do the job (colored prints, no issues).
If you have cards with a story, they carry a nostalgia and sentimental value.
You might know the moment, the circumstances and the person you traded the card with, or you won it in a tournament (like i did my power 9) , you will never want to trade them if you dont have to.
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Regarding competitive play and casual, budget is a bad form of "balancing" , as sometimes specific good cards can be expensive, and what is exactly expensive is very different from player to player.
Some will buy a Commander preconstructed deck box and just make small adjustments, they are not competitive decks in the slightest, but if all play the same game its fine, so balancing the powerlevel to a playgroup is much more important than what the format would allow.
A competitive EDH table has a lot of proxy cards in most areas, as the goal is to play the best deck possible, not playing cards simply because they are expensive would kinda defeat the competitive nature.
But frankly, most of the "expensive" cards are pretty much format allstars that any deck wants to play.
With the increased popularity of Commander and competitive EDH as well, cards got quite a bit more expensive, just in last 2+ years lots of cards basically doubled in price.
If your goal in a group is to have creative decks, or play on a budget, that can be done too, as a general rule for everyone.
There are people that build decks for all kinds of restrictions, like picking only 3 artists and cards from them, so suddenly the artwork is relevant of the cards (makes you find all kinds of reprints and promo versions you might otherwise never looked at).
Picking a list of card price tags and deciding to play on a budget is also a challenge.
Building a Commander deck with a 100$ budget is completely different from a 500$ budget.
There are also people that want to play their power 9 , play with miss-prints (or even "only" miss-prints) and all kinds of special cards, thats much more of a nostalgia trip than its competitive, but you also see cards you would have never seen otherwise (like a blue Hurricane, Blue Hurricane).
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Competitive EDH is shock full of combo decks and very different game plans to casual tables.
That means decks pack a lot of disruptions and stax pieces that stop combo decks.
Competitive decks also know a metagame, so you dont face completely random cards, you basically know what the other decks are up to and what their plan to win is.
If all 4 players bring a "actual" honestly competitive deck, its quite balanced.
Every deck is capable of crazy starts, but then 3 opponents are about to stop them, and its much more a political game what cards hurt you less than the opponents, so you dont have to deal with everything, as long as you are not shut out of the game completely. Going for the win is dangerous, as most of the time the player that goes for it first is facing all the disruption of the table and most likely fails, then the next player can combo much more easily as the table wasted their spells ; so the first player has to take that into consideration when the road is free to blast off.
The format is interesting on its own rights, as the top bunch of competitive decks form quite a metagame, for players that are truly interested and invested to be as competitive as possible.
Sadly, on lots of casual tables some player decides to build a competitive combo decks, while the other 3 build casual fun decks, so thats quite pointless, as the players dont play the same format at that point.
Its a completely different format cEDH, and traditional "aggro" decks basically dont exist, you need ways to stop opponents from winning quickly and bring weapons to the table that are not pathetic (if everyone uses laser guns, dont try to beat them with a wooden stick).
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So all that said, the important part is to make absolutely sure the playgroup knows what they want in a game and then make rules to archive that, the most fun for everyone.
Money comes and goes, people will get more money over time and its totally fine if people want to play competitive, but then they need a playgroup that is also into competitive games, otherwise they play different formats and have no fun either way.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Which meta/format? Vintage,Legacy,Modern,Pioneer,Historic,Standard,Pauper,Penny Dreadful,Commander,Brawl,Cube,Free-for-all?
As stated above. Have your group come up with a list of "banned" cards for your format/playgroup.
OR.... Create alternate wincons for your group. First player with XX creatures on the board wins, first player XX amount of power on the board wins. First player to cast XX sorceries wins. Get creative.
As it sits this game is very much geared to pay to win in competitive formats. Have your group set a budget for decks then. Make it work for you and your enjoyment will go way up.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
We don't tutor outside of mana fixing.
We don't play cards in decks that allow infinite combos.
We allow powerful salt inducing cards but we nearly always play 4 player games so the games seem to be longer and a little more variable. When a player gets something strong they often find themselves playing the arch-enemy.
It's also had the upside of reducing the cost of decent decks considerably whilst encouraging stranger plays.
We mostly play together but when new players come into our group they experience magic how we play it and either love it or hate it.
Magic is a game for everyone, if people want to play combos/proxies that's fine. It doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game but it's not how I prefer to play.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
Competitive Magic being what it is, sometimes many among us need to power-down.
I also agree that proxies are never a solution and I don't support their usage.
At the very least, commander decks should have collector or international edition cards, or championship deck (black back) cards. At least those are officially printed by WotC. Case in point...There has to be a limiting factor in deck building, and we can't simply pretend as if we all "magically" (pardon the pun) have an unlimited personal supply of every card printed for the sake of wanting to play particular builds. To delude ourselves into believing that's the case literally undermines everything about the collectability aspect of the game pieces itself. Who in their right mind wants to play or invest into a "collectible" card game when every piece look like Fletch?
I, like many players may want to play certain cards (in particular, certain Reserved List lands) in many or every commander deck. However, if I don't have a physical copy of a card for a deck (and yes, I'm still missing many such cards which I'm slowly chasing down), it's not virtually in that deck in the interim either because I've decided or declared its eventual inclusion is my intention. I wait. It's a matter of principle, maintaining goals, being true to myself, being honest with my collection, and learning how to manage an inventory. Ironically, some of the cards which I'm still missing and wish I got a few years ago (Bazaars, Workshops, Chains, Moat, etc) are now getting so expensive that I wouldn't risk playing them outside my own living room even if I eventually acquire them).
Commander is indeed always fun and "casual", but even that gets ridiculous at times, arguably even more so than modern and legacy since banned cards may find themselves in opening hands often giving said players huge early advantages (unless plays are mirrored by equally accelerating responses). Admittedly, many of my own decks are
brokentuned, include mana crypts among other "auto-include" staples (or "top cards" as linked above, though I don't run or agree with every card on that list being "necessary" in decks of particular colors or archtypes, however popular they may have become). Building a few decks which are intentionally powered-down and omit such cards as previously suggested is one way to go (tribal decks with no infinite combos are good). Alternatively, playing newer precons out the box which haven't been modified or which have very minor modification (say 5 land and 5 non-land cards) could be a solution to create the ideal games you're looking for.Other Suggestions...
Play duel decks
I bought many pairings years ago as they got released specifically because they're ready to go, were fairly cheap upon release, balanced, don't create games which end too quickly, and are great for teaching new players the game. In their absence since discontinuation, I suppose Challenger or Brawl decks may be what you want now.
Sealed deck
Who doesn't enjoy Limited?
Trade in some singles you haven't used in years and don't plan to build with anytime soon (you probably have much more value in your spare bulk boxes than you realize), get a booster box or two, and make up for the lost prerelease events when able. Want to make it even simpler? get a box of Jump/Start and the decks are halfway there.
Play on Arena
Everyone doesn't have every card unlocked so decks are naturally less competitive, at least until you hit higher ranking which can take time. If you enjoy grinding ladders to unlock cards and gold while being forced to use practical mono-colored decks or improvise creatively with a limited card pool by anticipating the opposition and building to counter the meta in best-of-ones, this could be fun.
When all else fails and you get frustrated with the competitive post-modern power-creep, build a casual cube to draft with your playgroup.
That's honestly the best way to control the power level of possible decks, abilities, and interactions in the meta, and you'll all be able to enjoy games which don't end abruptly by turn 3.
Lastly, If Magic is becoming a big source of frustration (for any reason), you could always take a step back, and...play another game entirely?
Nothing helps me forget about the annoyances of getting thoughtseized or mana screwed like a good old game of Chess or Go.
Lately, I've also been spending less time playing Magic in favor of Fallout 76, Star Trek Online, and WWE 2k20 on Xbox One (and anyone who wants my gamertag for Xbox or Magic Arena can pm me).
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
I think prereleases are pretty popular among casual players (at least in my area) because they can often level the playing field in a sense. Sealed eliminates the "pay to win" aspect where people who wanna win will just buy into expensive decks. Sealed gives everyone the same chance to open a crazy pool and at prerelease the format may not always be as solved as it will later become.
I know a few people who would only play duel decks against each other because they found that more balanced.
a casual group turning into an "arms race". I've seen this happen once, and eventually people had decks that looked and played similar to each other, which made the game boring. Our playgroup got bored, and some quit temporarily. When we got together again, we used tribal theme for casual play, so now our decks all look different - goblins, dinoasaur, elves, eldrazi, etc.. and the casual table is fun again.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Do you mean proxy or counterfeit? There is a distinction there.
I can sharpie Overgrown Tomb on a Forest and that is a proxy. I can print a Tarmogoyf off a website, cut it to shape and slide it in sleeve over a Grizzly Bear and it is a proxy.
A counterfeit card purchased on the gray market can be used as a proxy as well. Is this what you are referring to? That distinction really needs to be made between the two. One is a harmless legal action, the other is a property "crime".
It could be someone in the OP playgroup would love to play a certain deck and a certain card would make that deck function extremely well but lets say it costs 50 dollars a piece. A proxy would let that player enjoy that deck. But his/her playgroup won't allow it. And that is understandable but if I were that player I might think twice and act on being in that playgroup unless some compromise could be made.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I understand the distinction and abhor both (albeit the latter more than the former), because unfortunately, what often starts with one or two proxies in a deck becomes a slippery slope, and then before you know it 10-50% of the deck is Sharpied lands. I've seen people playing decks like that in stores, and it's ridiculous to watch or participate in such (mind) games. I mean, you're not even suggesting Bayou, or suggesting that someone who owns a bayou but doesn't want to damage it proxies a forest in its stead while keeping the original in their binder/box/safe/vault (this I consider understandable and somewhat acceptable for cards now worth over $1000, which is a reasonable threshold, again, so long as the person actually owns said cards and can prove it). Are Overgrown Tombs (a card which has only gone down in price with each reprint) so unaffordable even with the recent reprint and after rotating out of Standard? If so, then I'm sorry to say that top-tier (commander, modern, or pioneer) Magic just isn't for you. I apologize if that sounds elitist (you'd probably think I am since my RTR playset are foils and most of my originals are signed; which I only bought after returning from hiatus in 2010), and I can only assume that someone who isn't buying tombs isn't buying fetchlands either, but think about it this way... Just because someone has a golf bag, a driver, and a friend who wants to be their caddy, that doesn't mean they're entitled to play on any golf course they want for free either which normally charges thousands of dollars in annual membership fees. It may suck and seem unfair (alas, Magic, like life isn't fair), but you can still enjoy the game of golf on the public course (but it still doesn't mean you can borrow irons or other equipment from other golfers if that equipment isn't in your bag), the same way as you can enjoy Magic with restrictions on game pieces and power-level (ie: playing: Arena, Pauper, Peasant, Brawl, or mono-colored decks which don't "need" ABUR duals (to be optimized). The card accessibility argument for those living in smaller towns doesn't even hold up anymore now that players are no longer dependent on their LGS and can simply order virtually any card online from countless suppliers. All they need is an internet connection, and a credit card, a debit account, or Paypal. Don't have an internet connection? Well, that sucks too, but then that person clearly has bigger priorities than trying to get overgrown tombs.
Quite frankly, if someone who claims they want to be a competitive commander player isn't able to afford (or more accurately, isn't willing) to purchase overgrown tomb (or doesn't even want to trade for it, and let's be honest, we all have spare inventory for trade which we don't use but often have a difficult time letting go of regardless), then honestly, they really have no business or excuse for playing it proxied in a physical deck (beyond their own kitchen table). When I go to a store, and sit down with decks which took me over a decade to perfect, the last thing I want to see (even if it's not a sanctioned event) is a dozen Sharpied basic lands amongst my opponents' board states. It makes the game state more difficult to read, but more importantly, it undermines my deck-building efforts and makes me feel like "Why should I bother buying the cards I want to play with when so many others in the community seemingly believe or feel it's their entitled birthright to play with cards they haven't even opened in packs, bought, or traded for?")
We all have budgets, and admittedly, mine may be more than the average player's (in the absence of other expenses, such as a car since I don't drive). Regardless, we all make choices, cuts, and prioritize some cards over others. I myself haven't Sharpied any basics to represent new DFC duals or the Battlebond duals, many of which I haven't picked up yet (Indeed I will eventually, when prices drop). Could they better optimize some of my decks today? Sure! There's no denying it. Several of my commander decks (I have 23 and counting at the moment) are also still missing: wasteland, mana crypt, wheel of fortune, vesuva, revised duals, gaea's cradle, assassin's trophy, vampiric tutor (in fact, none of my black decks have imperial seal), time spiral, and other arguably "auto-include" cards), but until I "bite the bullet" and decide to pay for them, trade into them, or charge them to my credit card, I leave the decks as is (often with slightly inferior placeholders which have similar effects if they exist) commit to restricting any playtesting with cards I don't yet have physical copies of to Cockatrice which provides players the ability to build decks with such cards before actually getting physical copies. It's indeed conflicting because my inner perfectionist wants every deck to be optimized, but fooling myself with proxies means I'm only lying to myself and taking away the goal I'm trying to achieve, which is actually acquiring those cards (which I technically wouldn't have to do if I could easily justify using Sharpied forests as you and others apparently do). Oh well, at least I had the foresight to buy enough memory jars and copies of intuition for $20 before they spiked.)
Why haven't I bought other staple and/or reserved list cards? Good question! As mentioned, we all have budgets with limits, and I've allocated my Magic budget for other cards, ironically, including two foil TSR goyfs which I couldn't resist preordering yesterday at the opening bid as soon as they were priced and put up for sale online (but don't desperately "need" per say, since I already have a non-foil mixed playset, one copy of which is in French), but I bought them anyway because the price was good in lieu of countless other cards which I've had my eyes on for awhile but haven't gotten around to picking up yet for various reasons. Ultimately, for me, it comes down to a price to available quantity to time sensitivity assessment. How fast are opther people buying up certain cards? Which ones can I buy in larger quantities and trade back in 6-12 months at a profit to gets others I want which had since gone down? etc. Lots of questions, numbers to crunch, risks, and believe me...it's no easy formula or calculation. I trust my instincts. If they fail me, so be it. I buy cards when I feel they're at their lowest point. Sometimes that involves preordering, other times it involves waiting for hype around new cards to subside or for older ones to be outclassed (or "split" with color-shifted or functionally identical reprints). Meanwhile, older cards (decent ones) appreciate quicker than new ones (we all know this) and become further and further out of reach, but we all still have to accept the fact that consciously or subconsciously we're choosing not to buy certain cards whilst they're available at certain prices. We all know the player base is increasing an the market is fickle but many among us buy into the Standard power-creep anyways (even though we may be getting some of those cards for other formats). However, just because I'm buying new foils (I also pre-ordered two akroma's memorials which I've never had a foil of before), that doesn't give me the right to proxy RL cards (bayou or otherwise) which I may have neglected or deprioritized in the interim. The onus, and I would even say the responsibility lies within each of us as players (of a collectible card game, the key word being "collectible") to ensure we have all the game pieces with which we'd like to play this game, in whichever formats, archetypes, and levels of competition which are most intriguing or alluring to us.
Building up a collection and completing optimized decks (especially commander) is a long, grindy, incremental process, not something to be short-cutted with a marker or a printer. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I actually consider my Magic collection to be my "life's work" (started playing at 13 years old, and I'm 40 now). Is it my "retirement fund"? Inadvertently perhaps, but that was never the goal. The goal was owning the ultimate collection, not necessarily every card ever printed, but enough copies of the cards which I like to build all the decks I've ever wanted while having leftovers to eventually sell and recoup my investment so the decks and cubes I want to keep when all else is gone eventually will have never costed me a penny. Too ambitious? Perhaps, but it's realistically plausible, if (and only if) you're willing to be patient, buy low, and sell high when the time is right.
Even if it takes years to complete a deck....You might even say that it's part of the fun and necessary to feel a sense of accomplishment once the deck is finished and ready to be played to its full potential. Do you really feel satisfied winning with a Sharpied land or some combination of differently Sharpied lands? No. I'm sorry. That's not how Magic is played or how games should be won. Don't misinterpret...I sympathize for players who were late to the game or not born sooner at no fault of their own when some cards were cheaper and easier to get. I'm not saying I like the idea of "pay to win" games either (which is why I also have powered down decks for multiple formats when facing opponents who don't have all the staples to compete with top tier builds). However, I still don't understand why someone who just started playing Magic a year or two or five ago should randomly get full and free access to all the cards (especially the older ones they're not able or wiling to buy) which I and other players like me have had to tirelessly track down, accumulate, trade back and forth, and spend countless hours and thousands of dollars on over a decades-long period in order to play them.
EDIT: This is what Sharpied cards are supposed to look like...
I used to be a demigod, but now I'm an omnimage
It does and you are.
You'd be surprised how much money I've spent on MTG through the years and how much my collection is "worth". If the prices tanked I may be a bit bummed but I would look forward to owning and collecting more cards then.
You are coming off as a spoiled rich brat, I'd suggest you tone it down. Nobody but yourself cares about how much you spend. Swing your e-wiener in someones elses face. Don't bother with me responding to you again from this point, I always put people like you on my ignore list, where you belong.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
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And therein lies the truth. Its for fun so proxy or don't proxy. If your group has fun without proxies so be it. No need to berate or belittle people that decided to proxy up cards or decks to play a game for fun as a certain snobby elitist in this thread. I would suggest using a proxy until you purchase the card, why put a limit or boundary on your "fun"? You could find out you actually don't want the card after playtesting it and save your money then. I have done this in the past on several occasions and glad I have. Don't shackle yourself, have more fun.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Most people don't proxy to avoid buying cards, but rather to test them. But honestly, if done well, I have no problem with a 100% proxied deck. I don't need people to spend a ton to have fun with a group of casuals.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Proxy cards written by hand are quite cancer to play with.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
That is how I do it for the most part. But I have access to a color printer as well. Color ink cartridges aren't cheap either. I would never begrudge someone for using a sharpie marked proxy if their finances don't allow them the luxury of a computer/printer/color ink cartridges to print proxies. This is a game, not a beauty contest.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I always at least try to use black and white printed proxies. That said, I do have a Bloodstained Mire in my Nekusar deck that is a sharpied mountain. Funny thing is I have one I could use from a legacy deck, but at this point it's just kind of a joke... lol
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."