In any tournament you are supposed to get the real cards, and Magic is a "collectable" card game, so by nature everything that is really good is probably also rare.
Dual lands are a form of investment, at any point in time if you spend money on dual lands, 1 year later you made a profit doing so.
They get more expensive and they are a reasonable good form of investment, a lot of stock market papers perform worse, dual lands just get more expensive.
The formats you "need" them are extremely expensive anyway, Vintage, Legacy.
In Commander on a casual table you better just use some nice looking proxy cards, nobody should give a dime about it (as it would be downright insanity to have a full dual land package for lots of commander decks).
Lots of casual groups will make up their own rules for what kind of proxy is acceptable ; like you want to actually get the card in a forseeable future, so you use a proxy till then ; or cards that you have multiples in different decks, but you actually have at least 1 of them, and some simply say as long as we can read the cards without a problem (colored print outs) its all fine.
Magic is as expensive as you make it.
Theres pretty much no limit in pimping out cards with more expensive versions, but for casual magic you can also make it as cheap as you want it to be.
If you're saying they should reprint Plateau at common, that's a fun fantasy, and in theory I'd be okay with it. Pauper would never be the same. Nothing would. Obviously nothing like that is ever going to happen though. I could see an argument for bumping down cards at the level of Dragonskull Summit to uncommon in a set like Modern Horizons, but that's about the boldest change we could expect to see. Let's all take a minute to be happy that Opulent Palace and friends weren't printed at rare, since they really could've been.
You (Haeling) have pretty much described why people will buy Chinese fakes for a few bucks and why the counterfeiters will continue to do so. This will continue and the fakes will get better and better until they are nearly indistinguishable from the real.
Personally I would take the hit to my wallet if true duals, fetches and shocks were printed at common and in mass quantities. Originals would still hold some value as originals in the collector market. It might dissuade the counterfeiters as well. But it won't happen unfortunately.
Pay to play (competitively) is fully entrenched.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
no. there have to be barriers to deck building or there's no point to deck building.
if you need them to compete at a high level, you'll get them. most people don't compete at a high level, and those that do really have no trouble getting the majority of these things.
if you need them to compete at your kitchen table, you'll find alternatives that are easy to obtain and exist. most people THINK they need them for that, or for their fnm, but you don't. you really don't.
there's no reason to get proxies or fakes other than a lack of creativity and a desire to crush your table the easiest way you know how.
In my personal opinion, duals should never have been more than uncommons. But a precedent was set, so now all good mana fixing lands are rare. It sucks, especially since a mana base is oftern the biggest barrier to entry in eternal formats. Sadly, it will bever change at this point. High end lands are often selling points in sets. People buy packs hoping for fetches and shocks. And Wizards primary goal is to sell packs.
my collection is entirely proxied, with art and border suited to my liking (when so desired).
no one i play with gives a ****. this game, for most people, is not about the biggest wallet. it's about strategy, fast decision making and fun times.
great games in modern with top decks or personal brews (really, it's a lot of proxies; i'm working my way towards all i need for legacy/vintage, but i already have a lot of things from there too 'cause commander)
i have awesome matches, being able to test anything i wish with all the cards i want, with aesthetically pleasing tables to boot. i just don't play sanctioned events (which is more than fair - and eh, being a pro is a job, i dont want Magic to be my job)
guess the one thing i can't have is foils, heh. but i'm slowly working on that.
Remember one other reason why WotC is currently loath to put duals at lower than rare when the set theme isn't multicolor--they get in the way of draft construction. I'm pretty sure Rosewater has brought that point up multiple times.
That said, I would like to see a ten-card Flood Plain cycle at uncommon in M2020.
[quote from="Xcric »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/810824-should-magic-make-basic-dual-lands-common-and?comment=5"
if you need them to compete at a high level, you'll get them. most people don't compete at a high level, and those that do really have no trouble getting the majority of these things. [/quote]
So what you're saying is, there is no point in them being rare or expensive because to the people that need them they already aren't rare or expensive.
Tournament magic is expensive, fine. If you want to restrict people who play in tournaments to those with deep pockets instead of skill, that's fine, keep your hollow pay-to-win tournaments.
But casual magic doesn't have to be expensive, and as others have stated many casual players turn to proxies. So why doesn't WotC bank on that, and release these desired cards in a non-tournament legal gold bordered form? They've done it before. Perhaps these could be slotted into the advertisement card slot, or with an advertisement card back?
Tournament magic is expensive, fine. If you want to restrict people who play in tournaments to those with deep pockets instead of skill, that's fine, keep your hollow pay-to-win tournaments.
But casual magic doesn't have to be expensive, and as others have stated many casual players turn to proxies. So why doesn't WotC bank on that, and release these desired cards in a non-tournament legal gold bordered form? They've done it before. Perhaps these could be slotted into the advertisement card slot, or with an advertisement card back?
I really like this idea and they are so close to making it happen. It could also be a lesser selling point for packs. These new Modern Horizons Art Cards are practically proxies themselves. Instead turn them into Gold/Silver Bordered reprints of past powerful cards. I'm not sure if it could skirt the Reserved List but wouldn't it be cool to look for a chase Black Lotus again? Gold or Silver bordered with modern fronts and either blank or an advertisement on the back. People would love to collect them and they would still probably be worth money on the secondary market. I'm not going to pay 50K for a Black Lotus but I might pay up to 5 bucks for a new proxy. Do that for the Dual Lands, Power Nine, whatever. Just a thought.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Tournament magic is expensive, fine. If you want to restrict people who play in tournaments to those with deep pockets instead of skill, that's fine, keep your hollow pay-to-win tournaments.
But casual magic doesn't have to be expensive, and as others have stated many casual players turn to proxies. So why doesn't WotC bank on that, and release these desired cards in a non-tournament legal gold bordered form? They've done it before. Perhaps these could be slotted into the advertisement card slot, or with an advertisement card back?
I really like this idea and they are so close to making it happen. It could also be a lesser selling point for packs. These new Modern Horizons Art Cards are practically proxies themselves. Instead turn them into Gold/Silver Bordered reprints of past powerful cards. I'm not sure if it could skirt the Reserved List but wouldn't it be cool to look for a chase Black Lotus again? Gold or Silver bordered with modern fronts and either blank or an advertisement on the back. People would love to collect them and they would still probably be worth money on the secondary market. I'm not going to pay 50K for a Black Lotus but I might pay up to 5 bucks for a new proxy. Do that for the Dual Lands, Power Nine, whatever. Just a thought.
No no no, we should not be suggesting ways for WoTC to guarantee that the gold bordered cards be locked out from ever becoming tournament legal.
I'm going to quote myself from over a year ago on this very subject, to save myself the time of re-typing my thoughts for why we should be suggesting WoTC UNBAN the gold bordered cards for tourney play:
I've posted a few times on these forums in favor of such an action as unbanning GB cards. I'm in favor of an unban because this is literally the only option to increase the exchange of hands or increase new ownership of reserve list cards.
I'd suggest people give a thought to what else could be done to increase availability of tournament legal reserved list cards. Unfortunately any other options I'm aware of require a reprint. We all know WOTC will not do reprints so.......this is the only option I see.
Many people I've debated on this subject take the position that this is only reasonable if everyone can afford the cards and that affordability is only possible with reprints (to provide necessary quantities to drop prices). They argue that if there's not enough reprints to make the RL cards affordable to all, then there's no point at all. I think this line if thought is flawed.
I would suggest that we take a moment to accept, finally, that reprints are not an option for WOTC. The best alternative as players that we can get in hindsight is an unbanning. I see this as the only means of increasing how many people own these cards and can use them for legal tournament gameplay.
We have to take the history of these cards into consideration though and accept that not everyone is still going to be able to afford them if unbanned, and that's ok. We can't be so greedy as to argue for nothing instead of something, and trust me -something is absolutely better than nothing in this case.
and another quote, for the sake of opposing argument of "availability" - note this is from a locked thread so I have to copy/paste instead of directly quoting this text. quote links are removed in locked threads.
" Quote from Goblin Death DJ »
Quote from Shea_0 »
Quote from Goblin Death DJ »
Unbanning gold border cards is not going to lower the price of anything. Use common sense.
If unbanning gold borders didn't lower the prices of the originals then what's the problem? You might not want to buy a $500 CE black lotus that would be tourney legal but a hell of a lot of people certainly would and I bet they'd even pay $2k a week later as the prices go up.
If you aren't trying to lower the secondary market price, what's the point of making these already overpriced gold-bordered cards tournament legal?
Quote from Shea_0 »
We should acknowledge that "overpriced" is a relative term. We can't get hung up on whether an unbanned card falls into every person's budget...especially when it comes to the cards on the reserved list or power 9. Prices in regards to reserve list cards will behave differently than our typical card because of the fact that reserve list cards can't be reprinted. All we can do for these reserve list cards is increase availability.
The beauty of an unban is that the reprint policy is subverted. We understand this though, we've talked that subject to death. We also know that WOTC will not reprint.
We shouldn't worry so much about lowering the secondary market price with reseved list cards because that is requesting the impossible, that requires reprints. Reprinting isn't a realisic thing to expect.
What is realistic is increasing fluidity, increasing the exchange of ownership of reserve list cards. Unbanning can accomplish this.
Prices would have to adjust in the first few days and weeks for sure but that's about the best "price drop" we're going to get.
TLDR: Wo no longer use silver and gold border markings to determine tournament legality on cards. This was the method of the early 90's and has since become outdated in such a way that the original intent has since been lost and is now no longer associated with these borders due to multiple products existing and precedence set by newer products and formats than what was floating around in '94. We should be arguing for the unbanning of gold bordered cards from tournament play because we have card sleeves now that render the entire point of colored borders' signification as irrelevant. The limitations of the early 90's, where penny sleeves were as good as it got should no longer be relevant in ANY context to us determining tournament legality in the year 2019 and beyond. The existence of opaque card sleeves in themselves rendered gold/silver bordering as a pointless mode of demarcation for tournament legality.
Edit: Additionally, when WoTC released the loathsome Invocations in the Amonkhet block they had gold borders on them. WoTC's own antiquated border-color association with tournament legality got in their own way in this instance and they updated their rules language to specifically allow the Invocations to be tournament legal - despite the gold borders. So here we have a modern example of WoTC themselves having made a product with no care for the implications of border color, until only afterwards when people reminded them of this nuanced conflict of a bygone era. What was the argument people made for the Invocations? Why did they get special consideration? Because the solution - that we have sleeves nowadays that make the border color irrelevant - is so ubiquitous that it was common sense that won the argument here. Common sense should extend to all gold bordered cards.
Should something that fuels your deck be so expensive and have to be so hindering?
What would be the blow magic would take if they came out with common Basic dual lands?
Would it truly break the game?
In any tournament you are supposed to get the real cards, and Magic is a "collectable" card game, so by nature everything that is really good is probably also rare.
Dual lands are a form of investment, at any point in time if you spend money on dual lands, 1 year later you made a profit doing so.
They get more expensive and they are a reasonable good form of investment, a lot of stock market papers perform worse, dual lands just get more expensive.
The formats you "need" them are extremely expensive anyway, Vintage, Legacy.
In Commander on a casual table you better just use some nice looking proxy cards, nobody should give a dime about it (as it would be downright insanity to have a full dual land package for lots of commander decks).
Lots of casual groups will make up their own rules for what kind of proxy is acceptable ; like you want to actually get the card in a forseeable future, so you use a proxy till then ; or cards that you have multiples in different decks, but you actually have at least 1 of them, and some simply say as long as we can read the cards without a problem (colored print outs) its all fine.
Magic is as expensive as you make it.
Theres pretty much no limit in pimping out cards with more expensive versions, but for casual magic you can also make it as cheap as you want it to be.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Bloodfell Caves and Forsaken Sanctuary are pretty cheap and easy to come by. Simic Growth Chamber and Tainted Wood might cost as much as a dollar. Prairie Stream and Temple of Plenty cost a few dollars. Fiery Islet and Arid Mesa will cost you a pretty penny. Taiga and Underground Sea are basically god cards at this point with massive price tags and an official policy saying they won't reprint them.
If you're saying they should reprint Plateau at common, that's a fun fantasy, and in theory I'd be okay with it. Pauper would never be the same. Nothing would. Obviously nothing like that is ever going to happen though. I could see an argument for bumping down cards at the level of Dragonskull Summit to uncommon in a set like Modern Horizons, but that's about the boldest change we could expect to see. Let's all take a minute to be happy that Opulent Palace and friends weren't printed at rare, since they really could've been.
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Personally I would take the hit to my wallet if true duals, fetches and shocks were printed at common and in mass quantities. Originals would still hold some value as originals in the collector market. It might dissuade the counterfeiters as well. But it won't happen unfortunately.
Pay to play (competitively) is fully entrenched.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
if you need them to compete at a high level, you'll get them. most people don't compete at a high level, and those that do really have no trouble getting the majority of these things.
if you need them to compete at your kitchen table, you'll find alternatives that are easy to obtain and exist. most people THINK they need them for that, or for their fnm, but you don't. you really don't.
there's no reason to get proxies or fakes other than a lack of creativity and a desire to crush your table the easiest way you know how.
the other question is what's the reason for WoTC to do such a thing?
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no one i play with gives a ****. this game, for most people, is not about the biggest wallet. it's about strategy, fast decision making and fun times.
great games in modern with top decks or personal brews (really, it's a lot of proxies; i'm working my way towards all i need for legacy/vintage, but i already have a lot of things from there too 'cause commander)
i have awesome matches, being able to test anything i wish with all the cards i want, with aesthetically pleasing tables to boot. i just don't play sanctioned events (which is more than fair - and eh, being a pro is a job, i dont want Magic to be my job)
guess the one thing i can't have is foils, heh. but i'm slowly working on that.
Like...
Rancid Bog
Land — Swamp Forest
Add or or
The addition of "Add " means it is not a functional reprint of Bayou but its power level is basically the same.
That said, I would like to see a ten-card Flood Plain cycle at uncommon in M2020.
if you need them to compete at a high level, you'll get them. most people don't compete at a high level, and those that do really have no trouble getting the majority of these things. [/quote]
So what you're saying is, there is no point in them being rare or expensive because to the people that need them they already aren't rare or expensive.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
But casual magic doesn't have to be expensive, and as others have stated many casual players turn to proxies. So why doesn't WotC bank on that, and release these desired cards in a non-tournament legal gold bordered form? They've done it before. Perhaps these could be slotted into the advertisement card slot, or with an advertisement card back?
They did. There are 3 or 4 cycles of common and uncommon dual lands now.
I really like this idea and they are so close to making it happen. It could also be a lesser selling point for packs. These new Modern Horizons Art Cards are practically proxies themselves. Instead turn them into Gold/Silver Bordered reprints of past powerful cards. I'm not sure if it could skirt the Reserved List but wouldn't it be cool to look for a chase Black Lotus again? Gold or Silver bordered with modern fronts and either blank or an advertisement on the back. People would love to collect them and they would still probably be worth money on the secondary market. I'm not going to pay 50K for a Black Lotus but I might pay up to 5 bucks for a new proxy. Do that for the Dual Lands, Power Nine, whatever. Just a thought.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
No no no, we should not be suggesting ways for WoTC to guarantee that the gold bordered cards be locked out from ever becoming tournament legal.
I'm going to quote myself from over a year ago on this very subject, to save myself the time of re-typing my thoughts for why we should be suggesting WoTC UNBAN the gold bordered cards for tourney play:
and another quote, for the sake of opposing argument of "availability" - note this is from a locked thread so I have to copy/paste instead of directly quoting this text. quote links are removed in locked threads.
" Quote from Goblin Death DJ »
Quote from Shea_0 »
Quote from Goblin Death DJ »
Unbanning gold border cards is not going to lower the price of anything. Use common sense.
If unbanning gold borders didn't lower the prices of the originals then what's the problem? You might not want to buy a $500 CE black lotus that would be tourney legal but a hell of a lot of people certainly would and I bet they'd even pay $2k a week later as the prices go up.
If you aren't trying to lower the secondary market price, what's the point of making these already overpriced gold-bordered cards tournament legal?
Quote from Shea_0 »
We should acknowledge that "overpriced" is a relative term. We can't get hung up on whether an unbanned card falls into every person's budget...especially when it comes to the cards on the reserved list or power 9. Prices in regards to reserve list cards will behave differently than our typical card because of the fact that reserve list cards can't be reprinted. All we can do for these reserve list cards is increase availability.
The beauty of an unban is that the reprint policy is subverted. We understand this though, we've talked that subject to death. We also know that WOTC will not reprint.
We shouldn't worry so much about lowering the secondary market price with reseved list cards because that is requesting the impossible, that requires reprints. Reprinting isn't a realisic thing to expect.
What is realistic is increasing fluidity, increasing the exchange of ownership of reserve list cards. Unbanning can accomplish this.
Prices would have to adjust in the first few days and weeks for sure but that's about the best "price drop" we're going to get.
TLDR: Wo no longer use silver and gold border markings to determine tournament legality on cards. This was the method of the early 90's and has since become outdated in such a way that the original intent has since been lost and is now no longer associated with these borders due to multiple products existing and precedence set by newer products and formats than what was floating around in '94. We should be arguing for the unbanning of gold bordered cards from tournament play because we have card sleeves now that render the entire point of colored borders' signification as irrelevant. The limitations of the early 90's, where penny sleeves were as good as it got should no longer be relevant in ANY context to us determining tournament legality in the year 2019 and beyond. The existence of opaque card sleeves in themselves rendered gold/silver bordering as a pointless mode of demarcation for tournament legality.
Edit: Additionally, when WoTC released the loathsome Invocations in the Amonkhet block they had gold borders on them. WoTC's own antiquated border-color association with tournament legality got in their own way in this instance and they updated their rules language to specifically allow the Invocations to be tournament legal - despite the gold borders. So here we have a modern example of WoTC themselves having made a product with no care for the implications of border color, until only afterwards when people reminded them of this nuanced conflict of a bygone era. What was the argument people made for the Invocations? Why did they get special consideration? Because the solution - that we have sleeves nowadays that make the border color irrelevant - is so ubiquitous that it was common sense that won the argument here. Common sense should extend to all gold bordered cards.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG