Dunno how I feel about this. I'll probably be convinced by the flavor; I'm sure black enchantment removal will actually feel much more sinister than Disenchant. I'm sure we'll see black enchantment removal in Core 2020.
"Some limitations" are probably going to be similar to classic black removal conditions: edicting ("Target player sacrifices a creature or enchantment") which is hard to stop but removes your choice in the matter, or kill-the-weak ("Destroy target enchantment with converted mana cost 3 or less", similar to things like Smother).
I'm also convinced black's enchantment removal will have "opponent controls" clauses because black's absolutely most classic weakness is not being able to deal with its own enchantments should they become harmful (no getting outta that Demonic Pact without another color or an artifact).
I am curious how they flavor this. Black removal has always been about killing living things which ssems off with enchantments.
Something like countercurses or some kind of blood magic that requires life payment maybe. I would like to see black explore life payment mechanics more.
Generally speaking, its a good thing to have a third color be able to combat enchantments. They always felt least vurnerable.
This is actually really interesting. I like @void_nothing's ideas as to how this might be limited. And while it may seem like a major boost to black, keep in mind that all colors can technically deal with enchantments using high-cost cards like Meteor Golem. Still, there are plenty of conditions you could use. For example, something like this:
Strip of PowerB Instant
Destroy target Aura.
Most auras get put on creatures anyway, and black can already get rid of them by just killing the creature it's enchanting.
Every color needs ways to remove all permanent types in some way or shape.
Green got a ton of removal against creatures with the fight mechanic, before that it just got random destroy flying stuff and nothing else.
Black enchantment removal could easily be like a "essence drain" for the magic involved, negating the energy involved.
Green/Black removal is often enough just greens *****ty sideboard card with a creature removal combined to make it reasonable to maindeck, thats pretty much all they do in that way.
Putrefy could easily be red/black and pretty much is already.
Theres really little reason why Mortify is still a thing being so restrictive to enchantments and creatures, if green/black got Assassin's Trophy in the mix (and latest stuff like Casualties of War to mop up all permanent types.
Black alone should always have some form of enchantment removal.
To this date it was justified to not get one as black always had the option to use COLORLESS cards to get it done ; which is quite ironic that black as a color cannot destroy enchantments, but any color can with colorless cards, so colorless is literally more effective than a more restrictive color requirement.
Sacrifice of enchantments would work quite well and destroying them for a life payment would also work ; while not being crazy efficient like what green and white get to clean up specifically enchantments ; which is downright grotesque with Back to Nature (while you can argue The Elderspell fits that bill too).
I think making an opponent sacrifice enchantments as well as Silence the Believers like effects and already has been seen in black.
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I think making an opponent sacrifice enchantments as well as Silence the Believers like effects and already has been seen in black.
There really isnt any black enchantment at all right now, which is the big deal, its the only color that just flat out cant do anything against enchantments at all (it has to use colorless cards to fix that).
The closest we get on black cards is stuff that makes them sacrifice permanents (Greater Harvester, Phyrexian Obliterator), but in that case they always choose what they sacrifice and can sacrifice anything else before the enchantment.
Black is also really really brutally bad at destroying artifacts, which again is "fixed" by simply using colorless cards that do the trick.
But for artifacts theres at least a tiny amount of cards that still do it, even if its super odd balls like Gate to Phyrexia which they simply did not print till to date anymore.
So black is abysmal bad at killing artifacts and pretty much incapable to destroy enchantments at all.
You get discard at least to deal with it before it sticks, but thats not helping you when it does.
Allowing black to destroy and force sacrifice of enchantments and something against artifacts would be really helpful in a black way that feels fitting.
Its really strange if colorless can do stuff that black cant do, if colorless effects are somewhat supposed to be effects that every color has access to in a better way if done with the restrictions of paying that color of mana to begin with.
Hm. This is a massive break with many years of color pie. I hope they know what they're doing. Pay life for a sacrifice could make sense to me.
To be fair, technically black was always been able to destroy any kind of permanent with enough mana spent or in the right board state....all that effects that makes the opponent sacrifice or choose between piles of permanents for example.
That is the way I hope they go about it. Black's "enchantment destruction" is corrupting the enchantment for its own ends (i.e. stealing the enchantment). But I think it will be indirect sacrifice or life loss payment that will end up being the fix they go with.
I am guessin' that to keep it on flavor, it would require sacrificing a permanent or spending life as additional costs. Personally, I do not like it, as it would give too much to black, which (mostly) dips into most color pie features. Such as:
Card draw
Direct Damage
Board wipe removal
Spot Removal
Life gain
Flyers (weenies + big boys)
Creature stealing (Ritual of the Machine and New Blood among others)
Artifact destruction (Gate to Phyrexia and some obscure 1-shot from the past, can't remember the name)
Discard
Land destruction
Recursion
Tutoring
Indestructible
Weenie creatures
Massive bodies beasts
Mana acceleration
And now a black source Proliferate w/ Yawgmoth
Black even has a couple counter spells and a fog spell
How many other colors can take that claim?
So I really hope black doesn't have access to enchantment removal by itself. At the most, it will be a white or green activation cost on a black card.
In terms of flavor I'm 100% for black being able to remove enchantments. If any color knows how to destroy a metaphysical concept given power like 'hope' or 'rancor', it should be black, not green. It follows closely with black's motifs of inflicting insanity or despair.
I also think that black should be able to take control of (but not destroy) artifacts in place of blue.
As the most power-hungry color, black should care a lot more about artifacts on the battlefield than blue, with more effects like the Nim or Phylactery Lich that care about greedily hoarding them (while blue is still the go-to color for 'inventing' them, with cards to help search for them, cast them, or put them directly into play as already exist)
Black should also have the ability to steal artifacts as a result of coveting them. (Which limits their artifact 'removal' competitively since gaining control always costs a lot more than destroying and is almost always sorcery-speed, while you probably won't get much use out of an opponent's non-creature artifact if your deck isn't built around it. This still allows the Naya colors to be better at dealing with artifacts and avoids crowding them out).
Even if stick to the old pie phylosophy that certain colors cant deal with certain permanents, it never made sense that 3 colors dealt with artifacts but only two dealt with enchantments. Or that black was the only color who had two "critical" weakness (cant deal with Artifacts AND enchantments).
Flavor-wise, it can be imagined as a variation of black's curse magic. It makes sense that the mage who can inflict curses can also take charms away.
Even if stick to the old pie phylosophy that certain colors cant deal with certain permanents, it never made sense that 3 colors dealt with artifacts but only two dealt with enchantments. Or that black was the only color who had two "critical" weakness (cant deal with Artifacts AND enchantments).
Flavor-wise, it can be imagined as a variation of black's curse magic. It makes sense that the mage who can inflict curses can also take charms away.
Artifacts used to be primarily colorless and enchantments colored, meaning that each artifact could be playd in quintuple the number of colors as enchantments. As such it makes sense to me that more colors were able to remove artifacts.
I don't like it one bit. Black can deal with enchantments via discard. If you can't get the enchantment discarded, that's the price you pay for playing the color based on having to pay prices. Don't like paying prices? Then don't play black. Discard allows you to deal with anything at a specific time, just like counterspell can deal with anything, at a specific time. Causing discarding is one of the most powerful tools in the game and that's not good enough given how much the color already has? Weak.
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Basicly what’s going on here is with The Whole colored artifacts probably becoming evergreen
He just confirm enchantment removal is now going abzan rather than Selesnya just not over kill with black though
Any thoughts on this?
I’m definately hype this is like a prayers answered for rakdos players in edh
"Some limitations" are probably going to be similar to classic black removal conditions: edicting ("Target player sacrifices a creature or enchantment") which is hard to stop but removes your choice in the matter, or kill-the-weak ("Destroy target enchantment with converted mana cost 3 or less", similar to things like Smother).
I'm also convinced black's enchantment removal will have "opponent controls" clauses because black's absolutely most classic weakness is not being able to deal with its own enchantments should they become harmful (no getting outta that Demonic Pact without another color or an artifact).
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Something like countercurses or some kind of blood magic that requires life payment maybe. I would like to see black explore life payment mechanics more.
Generally speaking, its a good thing to have a third color be able to combat enchantments. They always felt least vurnerable.
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
Strip of Power B
Instant
Destroy target Aura.
Most auras get put on creatures anyway, and black can already get rid of them by just killing the creature it's enchanting.
Art is life itself.
Green got a ton of removal against creatures with the fight mechanic, before that it just got random destroy flying stuff and nothing else.
Black enchantment removal could easily be like a "essence drain" for the magic involved, negating the energy involved.
Green/Black removal is often enough just greens *****ty sideboard card with a creature removal combined to make it reasonable to maindeck, thats pretty much all they do in that way.
Putrefy could easily be red/black and pretty much is already.
Theres really little reason why Mortify is still a thing being so restrictive to enchantments and creatures, if green/black got Assassin's Trophy in the mix (and latest stuff like Casualties of War to mop up all permanent types.
Black alone should always have some form of enchantment removal.
To this date it was justified to not get one as black always had the option to use COLORLESS cards to get it done ; which is quite ironic that black as a color cannot destroy enchantments, but any color can with colorless cards, so colorless is literally more effective than a more restrictive color requirement.
Sacrifice of enchantments would work quite well and destroying them for a life payment would also work ; while not being crazy efficient like what green and white get to clean up specifically enchantments ; which is downright grotesque with Back to Nature (while you can argue The Elderspell fits that bill too).
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
There really isnt any black enchantment at all right now, which is the big deal, its the only color that just flat out cant do anything against enchantments at all (it has to use colorless cards to fix that).
The closest we get on black cards is stuff that makes them sacrifice permanents (Greater Harvester, Phyrexian Obliterator), but in that case they always choose what they sacrifice and can sacrifice anything else before the enchantment.
Black is also really really brutally bad at destroying artifacts, which again is "fixed" by simply using colorless cards that do the trick.
But for artifacts theres at least a tiny amount of cards that still do it, even if its super odd balls like Gate to Phyrexia which they simply did not print till to date anymore.
So black is abysmal bad at killing artifacts and pretty much incapable to destroy enchantments at all.
You get discard at least to deal with it before it sticks, but thats not helping you when it does.
Allowing black to destroy and force sacrifice of enchantments and something against artifacts would be really helpful in a black way that feels fitting.
Its really strange if colorless can do stuff that black cant do, if colorless effects are somewhat supposed to be effects that every color has access to in a better way if done with the restrictions of paying that color of mana to begin with.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
To be fair, technically black was always been able to destroy any kind of permanent with enough mana spent or in the right board state....all that effects that makes the opponent sacrifice or choose between piles of permanents for example.
That is the way I hope they go about it. Black's "enchantment destruction" is corrupting the enchantment for its own ends (i.e. stealing the enchantment). But I think it will be indirect sacrifice or life loss payment that will end up being the fix they go with.
Card draw
Direct Damage
Board wipe removal
Spot Removal
Life gain
Flyers (weenies + big boys)
Creature stealing (Ritual of the Machine and New Blood among others)
Artifact destruction (Gate to Phyrexia and some obscure 1-shot from the past, can't remember the name)
Discard
Land destruction
Recursion
Tutoring
Indestructible
Weenie creatures
Massive bodies beasts
Mana acceleration
And now a black source Proliferate w/ Yawgmoth
Black even has a couple counter spells and a fog spell
How many other colors can take that claim?
So I really hope black doesn't have access to enchantment removal by itself. At the most, it will be a white or green activation cost on a black card.
I also think that black should be able to take control of (but not destroy) artifacts in place of blue.
As the most power-hungry color, black should care a lot more about artifacts on the battlefield than blue, with more effects like the Nim or Phylactery Lich that care about greedily hoarding them (while blue is still the go-to color for 'inventing' them, with cards to help search for them, cast them, or put them directly into play as already exist)
Black should also have the ability to steal artifacts as a result of coveting them. (Which limits their artifact 'removal' competitively since gaining control always costs a lot more than destroying and is almost always sorcery-speed, while you probably won't get much use out of an opponent's non-creature artifact if your deck isn't built around it. This still allows the Naya colors to be better at dealing with artifacts and avoids crowding them out).
Buuut that's probably just me.
- Rabid Wombat
Flavor-wise, it can be imagined as a variation of black's curse magic. It makes sense that the mage who can inflict curses can also take charms away.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Artifacts used to be primarily colorless and enchantments colored, meaning that each artifact could be playd in quintuple the number of colors as enchantments. As such it makes sense to me that more colors were able to remove artifacts.