So I went through a large online store and, on a whim, threw a LP BETA card into my basket. Got the card yesterday but didn't look too closely at it until today after "processing" the rest of the order.
At first blush, I thought the mark, where the expansion symbol would go, was on the sleeve. I do this sometimes with with the inner sleeve, usually to note hard to see damage on higher priced cards or to denote ownership of a borrowed card. I NEVER write directly on any MTG card, even the checklist cards.
This card was in a penny sleeve, placed into a top loader, then packed into a team bag, by itself. So I really didn't think anything of it. It was only after pull the packaging apart that I realize the card was marked. Woof, it smells like it came from a smokers home 25 years ago too.
WTF! So I start writing an angry email to the company before I thought to take a closer look at the mark. A couple of squiggly lines with a number next to it. Very small, not much bigger than a pencil eraser head. Hhmmm....
It wasn't long before I realized that it's Jesper Myrfors initials. Comparing Google images of his signature seems to confirm this.
I paid less than $20 USD for the card so I'm not out a ton of money. I also like artist or Garfield signed cards*, my signed Fallen Angel is one of my prized cards. But purely on a principle of the matter, the card, by definition, is not anything other than Damaged.
I double checked my basket and my order. I most certainly did NOT order a signed copy.
So I'm torn between saying nothing and sending a nicely worded email back to the store telling them of the error.
What do you ya'll think?
* but no one else, not even MARO. He can roast for all I care.
Even ignoring the smoke smell (which would put me off even if it wasn't signed), I don't consider a signed card, by anyone, to be anything other than damaged. I hate signed cards.
I would email the seller back explaining the error *and* working on finding a way to get my money back. I don't think you have to be a dick about it, but contacting them and getting a refund so you can buy one that you want would be preferable even if it is only $20. And it (hopefully) let's them know that signed cards are not ones that should be sent out on a whim.
I've never really understood the idea by getting an artist to sign it as "damaged." It's not like it fully kills the card to the point of structural integrity. Also, depending on the size of the signature, I would rate it as LP or MP. It's not worse than the marking from a GP draft most of the time. Personally, I love getting artist signatures and value cards with a signature moreso because of the work into getting them that way.
As for your situation, I'd have to say that you'd be in your rights to write a nicely worded e-mail letting them know that you did receive a card in a condition different than what you expected. Overall? I don't think it's a huge deal if the card is really in LP condition. And really, how often are you going to find a signed Beta card? I'd feel lucky, honestly.
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I've never really understood the idea by getting an artist to sign it as "damaged." It's not like it fully kills the card to the point of structural integrity.
This is because some stores don't actually have a category that allows for "signed" or even "altered". So the only choice is to simply list it as "damaged" even if the condition is LP or NM otherwise.
There is a really good article I can't find (Star City Games maybe?) that talks about how signature/artist alters can flip-flop between damaged to NM depending on who is looking at the card.
I've never really understood the idea by getting an artist to sign it as "damaged." It's not like it fully kills the card to the point of structural integrity.
I'd consider a sleeve legal (or even non-sleeve legal) card with something like a food stain to be damaged as well. Fundamentally the signature is just a pen mark on the card—I could have a sharpie laying around uncapped on the table, accidentally have its tip hit the card, and it would be more or less the same thing from the standpoint of what's actually being done to the card. The fact that the artist (or in some cases the designer, like the Mark Rosewater signed Maros of the world) doesn't really change that reality for a lot of people. I say this as someone who's fought with stores that have given me signed cards I never asked for just because I ordered the lower graded version before.
And really, how often are you going to find a signed Beta card? I'd feel lucky, honestly.
I don't have a tremendous number of Beta cards (I did pick up some Lightning Bolts back when they were like $40, which is the most expensive it's gotten, and I'd be even more picky if it was like duals or something) but in my case at least I want a clean aesthetic on it, not someone's signature. If I ordered, say, some lightly played Beta cards from SCG and got signed ones, I would absolutely send them an e-mail about it asking for a free replacement, because they might as well have sent me cards that were noticeably creased or stained.
For all intends an purposes a card is ONLY mint if nothing altered the card , neither damage or anything else.
If you ink a card , at the borders to fix some white spots of damage, or put a signature on it, its DAMAGED.
However that does not mean its the "same" damage as actual destroyed card.
Any alter will be classified as "damaged" , but can be worth more than the original card if someone wants that particular alter.
So yes, a card with a signature is "damaged" , but in the end, most would simply put some form of "signature" tag to it, and rate it not as damaged for the actual quality of the card ignoring its signature ; as people still care for the quality even if its signed.
The proper label would so be : "signed - light played" , and that would be fine.
If you did not order a signed card, you are totally in the right to claim your money back, which any halve reasonable store would absolutely grant.
I haven't really looked much into what the market would consider signed cards as I don't go out of my way to look for signed cards and would never consider moving my signed cards, as I use them in a lot of decks (signed playsets of thoughtseize and Liliana of the Veil), but most places I know consider them as damaged rather than LP. I have a sharpied volcanic island that is also considered damage
It really depends on a lot of cards. If you look at some BGS graded cards that are signed, they can be 9.5 or 10 or 8, or whatever. The Signature (as long as it is real) does not really affect the grade to my knowledge. They also usually have a separate grade for the signature.
But alot of people look at signed cards as damaged, it is really just personal preference. Some people may pay more for a signed card, some may pay less. Depends on the buyer and their connection to the card and/or artist.
But, you were not buying a card that was signed and graded. You were buying a card at LP condition that did not mention it is signed. The card itself may very well be LP, but if it is signed, I think the vendor needs to notate that somehow.
This is just my opinion and what I found from my research.
But, you were not buying a card that was signed and graded. You were buying a card at LP condition that did not mention it is signed. The card itself may very well be LP, but if it is signed, I think the vendor needs to notate that somehow.
Ultimately it's just capitalistic market forces at work. Stores know that signed cards are harder to move normally than non-signed cards, so they'll slip in something like "non-NM/M cards include signed cards if we feel like it unless you specifically request otherwise" into their terms of service. It's a bad-faith move that gets the store a little bit of profit but I've seen enough desperate moves from stores to move stock (Tiny Leaders and Frontier weren't real formats, for example, just ways for stores to move old stock, which is why they died horribly after the stores got their sales in, on top of being *****ty formats) to know what's going on there.
MTG grading convention is that signed cards are DAMAGED or Heavily Played, regardless of condition.
I would be upset if I bought LP and received a signed card.
I don't care about what the debate is. The debate, if there is any is, "what the actual condition of the card is."
MTG ppl LOVE to get caught up in missing the point.
Don't get caught up in that debate. That's not the point.
The point is that if a seller passes a signed card to you, its just that much harder to move.
When other people obey the convention that signed = HP, then now you have to move your "LP" card as an HP card instead of a LP card.
Alternatively you can take on the burden of convincing others you are selling an LP card.
Maybe you can do it. Maybe you wont have any problem getting that done.
But they shouldn't have been able to pass that burden onto you.
I finally sent a message to the seller explaining the situation but firmly indicating they need to make it right and follow through with some kind of resolution.
Everyone has perfectly valid points but at the end of the day, it's not fair to me to order an LP card only to find they sent me a signed card. If the seller had done the simple business of contacting me before shipping and give me whatever excuse (s)he wanted to give me and offer the signed card in lieu of the LP, then I might have accepted.
The cigarette smoke smell is a minor nuisance and I have very rarely found buyers/sellers refuse such cards. (I have a procedure to mitigate such a thing.) I don't' smoke (I can't) but I see it all the time at the LGS. A mystery in the same way I have never seen a seller lower the condition of a yellowed card if it would be that condition otherwise. A mystery further compounded by the fact no one ever seems to notice the yellowing until I point it out!!
But I digress....Yes, it can be argued that, were it not for the signature, it is an LP card. It's also by a pretty decent artist. But, as some pointed out, it was described as signed and it should not have been sold otherwise, even if I would have bought it if it was described as signed. I think it's called principles?
At first blush, I thought the mark, where the expansion symbol would go, was on the sleeve. I do this sometimes with with the inner sleeve, usually to note hard to see damage on higher priced cards or to denote ownership of a borrowed card. I NEVER write directly on any MTG card, even the checklist cards.
This card was in a penny sleeve, placed into a top loader, then packed into a team bag, by itself. So I really didn't think anything of it. It was only after pull the packaging apart that I realize the card was marked. Woof, it smells like it came from a smokers home 25 years ago too.
WTF! So I start writing an angry email to the company before I thought to take a closer look at the mark. A couple of squiggly lines with a number next to it. Very small, not much bigger than a pencil eraser head. Hhmmm....
It wasn't long before I realized that it's Jesper Myrfors initials. Comparing Google images of his signature seems to confirm this.
I paid less than $20 USD for the card so I'm not out a ton of money. I also like artist or Garfield signed cards*, my signed Fallen Angel is one of my prized cards. But purely on a principle of the matter, the card, by definition, is not anything other than Damaged.
I double checked my basket and my order. I most certainly did NOT order a signed copy.
So I'm torn between saying nothing and sending a nicely worded email back to the store telling them of the error.
What do you ya'll think?
* but no one else, not even MARO. He can roast for all I care.
I would email the seller back explaining the error *and* working on finding a way to get my money back. I don't think you have to be a dick about it, but contacting them and getting a refund so you can buy one that you want would be preferable even if it is only $20. And it (hopefully) let's them know that signed cards are not ones that should be sent out on a whim.
As for your situation, I'd have to say that you'd be in your rights to write a nicely worded e-mail letting them know that you did receive a card in a condition different than what you expected. Overall? I don't think it's a huge deal if the card is really in LP condition. And really, how often are you going to find a signed Beta card? I'd feel lucky, honestly.
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This is because some stores don't actually have a category that allows for "signed" or even "altered". So the only choice is to simply list it as "damaged" even if the condition is LP or NM otherwise.
There is a really good article I can't find (Star City Games maybe?) that talks about how signature/artist alters can flip-flop between damaged to NM depending on who is looking at the card.
Anyways, thanks for the input from all of you.
I'd consider a sleeve legal (or even non-sleeve legal) card with something like a food stain to be damaged as well. Fundamentally the signature is just a pen mark on the card—I could have a sharpie laying around uncapped on the table, accidentally have its tip hit the card, and it would be more or less the same thing from the standpoint of what's actually being done to the card. The fact that the artist (or in some cases the designer, like the Mark Rosewater signed Maros of the world) doesn't really change that reality for a lot of people. I say this as someone who's fought with stores that have given me signed cards I never asked for just because I ordered the lower graded version before.
I don't have a tremendous number of Beta cards (I did pick up some Lightning Bolts back when they were like $40, which is the most expensive it's gotten, and I'd be even more picky if it was like duals or something) but in my case at least I want a clean aesthetic on it, not someone's signature. If I ordered, say, some lightly played Beta cards from SCG and got signed ones, I would absolutely send them an e-mail about it asking for a free replacement, because they might as well have sent me cards that were noticeably creased or stained.
If you ink a card , at the borders to fix some white spots of damage, or put a signature on it, its DAMAGED.
However that does not mean its the "same" damage as actual destroyed card.
Any alter will be classified as "damaged" , but can be worth more than the original card if someone wants that particular alter.
So yes, a card with a signature is "damaged" , but in the end, most would simply put some form of "signature" tag to it, and rate it not as damaged for the actual quality of the card ignoring its signature ; as people still care for the quality even if its signed.
The proper label would so be : "signed - light played" , and that would be fine.
If you did not order a signed card, you are totally in the right to claim your money back, which any halve reasonable store would absolutely grant.
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But alot of people look at signed cards as damaged, it is really just personal preference. Some people may pay more for a signed card, some may pay less. Depends on the buyer and their connection to the card and/or artist.
But, you were not buying a card that was signed and graded. You were buying a card at LP condition that did not mention it is signed. The card itself may very well be LP, but if it is signed, I think the vendor needs to notate that somehow.
This is just my opinion and what I found from my research.
Ultimately it's just capitalistic market forces at work. Stores know that signed cards are harder to move normally than non-signed cards, so they'll slip in something like "non-NM/M cards include signed cards if we feel like it unless you specifically request otherwise" into their terms of service. It's a bad-faith move that gets the store a little bit of profit but I've seen enough desperate moves from stores to move stock (Tiny Leaders and Frontier weren't real formats, for example, just ways for stores to move old stock, which is why they died horribly after the stores got their sales in, on top of being *****ty formats) to know what's going on there.
I would be upset if I bought LP and received a signed card.
I don't care about what the debate is. The debate, if there is any is, "what the actual condition of the card is."
MTG ppl LOVE to get caught up in missing the point.
Don't get caught up in that debate. That's not the point.
The point is that if a seller passes a signed card to you, its just that much harder to move.
When other people obey the convention that signed = HP, then now you have to move your "LP" card as an HP card instead of a LP card.
Alternatively you can take on the burden of convincing others you are selling an LP card.
Maybe you can do it. Maybe you wont have any problem getting that done.
But they shouldn't have been able to pass that burden onto you.
Everyone has perfectly valid points but at the end of the day, it's not fair to me to order an LP card only to find they sent me a signed card. If the seller had done the simple business of contacting me before shipping and give me whatever excuse (s)he wanted to give me and offer the signed card in lieu of the LP, then I might have accepted.
The cigarette smoke smell is a minor nuisance and I have very rarely found buyers/sellers refuse such cards. (I have a procedure to mitigate such a thing.) I don't' smoke (I can't) but I see it all the time at the LGS. A mystery in the same way I have never seen a seller lower the condition of a yellowed card if it would be that condition otherwise. A mystery further compounded by the fact no one ever seems to notice the yellowing until I point it out!!
But I digress....Yes, it can be argued that, were it not for the signature, it is an LP card. It's also by a pretty decent artist. But, as some pointed out, it was described as signed and it should not have been sold otherwise, even if I would have bought it if it was described as signed. I think it's called principles?
The seller offered enough of a refund to bring the price down comparable to a cheap MP or an expensive damaged. So I am satisfied with the resolution
Can I ask what you picked up?