MtG used to be quite embarrassing at times, what with all those dodgy poses, T&A popping out left and right, ‘come hither’ expressions (and worse), etc.
Personally, I’m all for more women being portrayed as strong, capable, independent. Rather than as sex objects. Not to say ‘sexy’ is always a bad thing to show (of course not!) Context and basic respect will still matter though.
MtG used to be quite embarrassing at times, what with all those dodgy poses, T&A popping out left and right, ‘come hither’ expressions (and worse), etc.
Personally, I’m all for more women being portrayed as strong, capable, independent. Rather than as sex objects. Not to say ‘sexy’ is always a bad thing to show (of course not!) Context and basic respect will still matter though.
I just don't get what are people even talking about when they say MTG used to be "T&A popping out left and right". What are you even referring to? Earthbind? That was like more than 20 years ago. All these people who say MTG used to be so sexualised... when exactly are you talking about? MTG art has been pretty tame for many many years now. Are people THAT traumatised by Elvish Ranger and Eternal Witness?
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
its less to do with the art purposely being not sexy, and really more to do with the art just being bland. like, across the board. all cards. not just the ones with women on them. almost evvery artist has become interchangeable with any other artist. the cards with dudes on them have become just as forgettable, or the cards with wurms, or gorillas, or birds. its not really about showing flesh, its just that everything especially compared to older stuff has become so... the same.
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
MtG used to be quite embarrassing at times, what with all those dodgy poses, T&A popping out left and right, ‘come hither’ expressions (and worse), etc.
Personally, I’m all for more women being portrayed as strong, capable, independent. Rather than as sex objects. Not to say ‘sexy’ is always a bad thing to show (of course not!) Context and basic respect will still matter though.
I just don't get what are people even talking about when they say MTG used to be "T&A popping out left and right". What are you even referring to? Earthbind? That was like more than 20 years ago. All these people who say MTG used to be so sexualised... when exactly are you talking about? MTG art has been pretty tame for many many years now. Are people THAT traumatised by Elvish Ranger and Eternal Witness?
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Surprisingly, when women are portrayed in art all over the place (not just Magic) as nothing but scantily clad T&A, they start to get tired of it after a while. Wanting a variety of looks in female characters' art is not prudishness, it's the desire for more even representation.
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
I think they CAN, and I think some of the art is bad ass, the example of Radha, Heir to Keld for example. Personally, I love that art, and hate the new one. That said, I also know why they are going a different direction.
I am sure we will get some art in that more Heroic Fantasy style again, its just going to be mixed in with Isareth the Awakener.
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
(the bold is mine obviously)
Which goes back to my first point. What trend are we even talking about? When exactly did we see in Magic "every female character looking like a pin-up"? Earthbind, a single (sort of) sexy card art from decades ago? Elvish Ranger? Are people THAT scandalized over that? The female art in MTG from years and years ago (even less so current female art) is NOTHING compared to the fantasy art a lot of people grew with and have no problem with. God forbid one of you sees a Luis Royo piece (let alone a Renaissance depiction of Venus or something), lest we have some sort of anti-sexist art protest in front of the White House or something. Let me tell you people, it's clear as day to me you have been extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women.
This reminds me a lot of that Simpsons episode about Itchyand Scratchy and the David statue censorship.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
(the bold is mine obviously)
Which goes back to my first point. What trend are we even talking about? When exactly did we see in Magic "every female character looking like a pin-up"? Earthbind, a single (sort of) sexy card art from decades ago? Elvish Ranger? Are people THAT scandalized over that? The female art in MTG from years and years ago (even less so current female art) is NOTHING compared to the fantasy art a lot of people grew with and have no problem with. God forbid one of you sees a Luis Royo piece (let alone a Renaissance depiction of Venus or something), lest we have some sort of anti-sexist art protest in front of the White House or something. Let me tell you people, it's clear as day to me you have been extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women.
This reminds me a lot of that Simpsons episode about Itchyand Scratchy and the David statue censorship.
Magic was never as bad as some places. But being "extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women" is the opposite of what I've grown up with. I've been surrounded by images of women like me depicted in sexual ways for the viewing pleasure of men. Call me a buzzkill, but I'd like to see less of that. Not none, but less.
I don't like the depiction of men either from an intellectual rather than aesthetic point of view, and they have done nothing about it apart from make the muscles bigger with every set.
Take a look at real male soldiers, as in actually physically fit men who fight and die, then have a look at what we see on Mtg; it is as far from real as the metal bikini art is for women. Only for women it is considered sexualised, but for male characters it is not.
In short
=
Still in terms of art I don't like the modern homogenised style.
To be brutally honest, I liked the old artist lead approach that bought us Foglios et al. Sure some sucked, but the variation was appealing.
Nobody would be interested in Mishra's factory winter if it were an old card but with the modern art. I would ratehr a Stasis every now and then, regardless of how sexualised it is.
However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
Again, this is fantasy.
I'm not talking just about MtG, I'm talking about art in general. Sexualizing and objectifying women, which, yes, MtG has done less since basically the start, is sexist.
And, yes, I know this is fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that it reflects trends/mores of the real world, which include sexism.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
(the bold is mine obviously)
Which goes back to my first point. What trend are we even talking about? When exactly did we see in Magic "every female character looking like a pin-up"? Earthbind, a single (sort of) sexy card art from decades ago? Elvish Ranger? Are people THAT scandalized over that? The female art in MTG from years and years ago (even less so current female art) is NOTHING compared to the fantasy art a lot of people grew with and have no problem with. God forbid one of you sees a Luis Royo piece (let alone a Renaissance depiction of Venus or something), lest we have some sort of anti-sexist art protest in front of the White House or something. Let me tell you people, it's clear as day to me you have been extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women.
This reminds me a lot of that Simpsons episode about Itchyand Scratchy and the David statue censorship.
Magic was never as bad as some places. But being "extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women" is the opposite of what I've grown up with. I've been surrounded by images of women like me depicted in sexual ways for the viewing pleasure of men. Call me a buzzkill, but I'd like to see less of that. Not none, but less.
Fair enough I guess. To me there was already very little to begin with, and today there's even less.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
Again, this is fantasy.
I'm not talking just about MtG, I'm talking about art in general. Sexualizing and objectifying women, which, yes, MtG has done less since basically the start, is sexist.
And, yes, I know this is fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that it reflects trends/mores of the real world, which include sexism.
Stop. Just stop. This is incorrect. Doesn’t matter what you try and apply it to, you are just flat out wrong. If you don’t understand a word, don’t use it. You are encouraging group think about a term you are using incorrectly. It is, at its core, propaganda.
However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
Again, this is fantasy.
I'm not talking just about MtG, I'm talking about art in general. Sexualizing and objectifying women, which, yes, MtG has done less since basically the start, is sexist.
And, yes, I know this is fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that it reflects trends/mores of the real world, which include sexism.
Stop. Just stop. This is incorrect. Doesn’t matter what you try and apply it to, you are just flat out wrong. If you don’t understand a word, don’t use it. You are encouraging group think about a term you are using incorrectly. It is, at its core, propaganda.
Ok, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree or something, but I'm pretty sure I know what sexism is, given that I'm a woman.
However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
Again, this is fantasy.
I'm not talking just about MtG, I'm talking about art in general. Sexualizing and objectifying women, which, yes, MtG has done less since basically the start, is sexist.
And, yes, I know this is fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that it reflects trends/mores of the real world, which include sexism.
Stop. Just stop. This is incorrect. Doesn’t matter what you try and apply it to, you are just flat out wrong. If you don’t understand a word, don’t use it. You are encouraging group think about a term you are using incorrectly. It is, at its core, propaganda.
Ok, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree or something, but I'm pretty sure I know what sexism is, given that I'm a woman.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
(the bold is mine obviously)
Which goes back to my first point. What trend are we even talking about? When exactly did we see in Magic "every female character looking like a pin-up"? Earthbind, a single (sort of) sexy card art from decades ago? Elvish Ranger? Are people THAT scandalized over that? The female art in MTG from years and years ago (even less so current female art) is NOTHING compared to the fantasy art a lot of people grew with and have no problem with. God forbid one of you sees a Luis Royo piece (let alone a Renaissance depiction of Venus or something), lest we have some sort of anti-sexist art protest in front of the White House or something. Let me tell you people, it's clear as day to me you have been extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women.
This reminds me a lot of that Simpsons episode about Itchyand Scratchy and the David statue censorship.
Don't forget the post not too long ago about someone embarrassed to play Lost Souls with his mother because well... she's nude. The card, not the posters mother. That little shadow... right there... see that? Get a loupe, you can see it better....
It's just so sad to see MTG dominated by acritical feminist ideologues. Remember in the 90's when moms where scandalized over a pentagram and "satanist" imagery in early Magic and advocated for forceful change in the artwork (aka censorship) against it? This is the XXIst century version of that.
I think I've learned to treat Magic cards like baseball cards: keep 'em in a binder in numerical order, don't play with 'em, try to finish the set and just keep my head down.
Having a super exposed body doesn't always correlate to attraction. Sometimes it's a bit forced and quite tacky. I've been a fan of the art direction for a while now.
Maybe to some pubescent fanboy/girl but to many others it isn't.
Why the need for this? You could have very easily ended your post without this comment and it wouldn’t have mattered. So those that prefer that style are “pubescent fanboys/girls”? There could be just as “many” that prefer that style of art.
Damn, first a women claims to know sexism because she’s a woman, then you go ahead and say “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” unless you like a certain art style, because that’s childish.
And to clarify the point, nobody here has “shat on” these opinions of yours(and lookashiny). It’s quite the opposite. You’ve gone out and labeled a group of people that don’t agree with you. How lovely.
Edit: Popluar opinion time! Somebody should lock this thread before it continues. This is like that featured article a while back where “men are nazis”.
MtG used to be quite embarrassing at times, what with all those dodgy poses, T&A popping out left and right, ‘come hither’ expressions (and worse), etc.
Personally, I’m all for more women being portrayed as strong, capable, independent. Rather than as sex objects. Not to say ‘sexy’ is always a bad thing to show (of course not!) Context and basic respect will still matter though.
I just don't get what are people even talking about when they say MTG used to be "T&A popping out left and right". What are you even referring to? Earthbind? That was like more than 20 years ago. All these people who say MTG used to be so sexualised... when exactly are you talking about? MTG art has been pretty tame for many many years now. Are people THAT traumatised by Elvish Ranger and Eternal Witness?
This is the same people who proudly advocate for public breastfeeding or homosexual kissing in movies because "to conservative society showing violence is ok but showing sex and love is bad" and then are shocked to see the slightest hint of a female body. Hypocritical political correctness is corrupting MTG so bad...
its less to do with the art purposely being not sexy, and really more to do with the art just being bland. like, across the board. all cards. not just the ones with women on them. almost evvery artist has become interchangeable with any other artist. the cards with dudes on them have become just as forgettable, or the cards with wurms, or gorillas, or birds. its not really about showing flesh, its just that everything especially compared to older stuff has become so... the same.
Yeah you kind of miss the point. There is a difference between inclusive (your kissing example) and natural (breastfeeding) and objectification. I'm surprised we got to page 2 really.
Spirits
Surprisingly, when women are portrayed in art all over the place (not just Magic) as nothing but scantily clad T&A, they start to get tired of it after a while. Wanting a variety of looks in female characters' art is not prudishness, it's the desire for more even representation.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
First off, let me make something clear because I'm sure people will be triggered by my examples. I'm bisexual and have no problem with homosexual kissing in public (done it myself) or in movies. Also, I live in Chile, where women have breastfed in the subway, bus, etc for decades. So just clarifying that in case people think I'm against those things.
Now to your point. If you think a woman expressing her sexuality and being sexy is objectification, it says more about how you see it than how the large majority of people sees it. My current gf is a huge fan of DC women (Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, etc) and loves to see sexy art depicting them. She doesn't play MTG but she has seen a lot of cards and she has abolsutely no problem with sexy card art. It's all about projection. I mean, did we forget this game is about FANTASY? It's called MAGIC ffs.
A woman expressing her sexuality is not objectification. A drawing of a woman is not a woman. A trend/history of men drawing women in scantily clad, sexually tinged poses is objectification.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
You're right in that it has been mostly men that have drawn women in MTG. But I'll reiterate: unless you people think it was Rob Liefeld who drew all the women in Magic, why couldn't it be allowed for a man to draw a woman showing some skin? And I don't even mean "scantily clad", as I think MTG art is one of the tamest there are in TCG's in general. I grew up with Frazetta's and Genzoman's artwork and I always thought their women look badass. Again, if you think either of them drew them to ********, it says more about you than about the artist. The more we are afraid of depictions of women, the less normalized they're going to be. The goal should be IMO to be able to see a sexy woman in artwork (again, like Genzo's or Frazetta's) and not care about it or see it as badass rather than be afraid of it and censoring it. Not a fan of the leftist neo-puritanism people here advocate for.
I'm not going to say that there should be no scantily clad women in art. With some characters, it makes sense to have them wearing less. Both female and male characters should be drawn in a variety of clothing styles, from near-naked to totally covered up. That's been happening more and more and I'm glad for it. However, the older trend of every female character looking like a pin-up is, yes, sexist.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
I am sure we will get some art in that more Heroic Fantasy style again, its just going to be mixed in with Isareth the Awakener.
I mean does anyone have issue with Liliana, Untouched by Death
Spirits
(the bold is mine obviously)
Which goes back to my first point. What trend are we even talking about? When exactly did we see in Magic "every female character looking like a pin-up"? Earthbind, a single (sort of) sexy card art from decades ago? Elvish Ranger? Are people THAT scandalized over that? The female art in MTG from years and years ago (even less so current female art) is NOTHING compared to the fantasy art a lot of people grew with and have no problem with. God forbid one of you sees a Luis Royo piece (let alone a Renaissance depiction of Venus or something), lest we have some sort of anti-sexist art protest in front of the White House or something. Let me tell you people, it's clear as day to me you have been extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women.
This reminds me a lot of that Simpsons episode about Itchyand Scratchy and the David statue censorship.
Magic was never as bad as some places. But being "extremely sheltered from artistic depictions of women" is the opposite of what I've grown up with. I've been surrounded by images of women like me depicted in sexual ways for the viewing pleasure of men. Call me a buzzkill, but I'd like to see less of that. Not none, but less.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
Take a look at real male soldiers, as in actually physically fit men who fight and die, then have a look at what we see on Mtg; it is as far from real as the metal bikini art is for women. Only for women it is considered sexualised, but for male characters it is not.
In short
=
Still in terms of art I don't like the modern homogenised style.
To be brutally honest, I liked the old artist lead approach that bought us Foglios et al. Sure some sucked, but the variation was appealing.
Nobody would be interested in Mishra's factory winter if it were an old card but with the modern art. I would ratehr a Stasis every now and then, regardless of how sexualised it is.
That is most certainly not sexist. This is a problem that needs to go away. To turn your argument on its head, if MtG was utilizing that art to promote sales, then yes, that would be sexist. However, they don’t. Soooo.....
I swear, people just use whatever word they want to describe something they feel strongly about something that isn’t rational. Across multiple works of fiction, beauty is also an equivalent of strength and authority. Should every work of art contain a women with perfect measurements, smooth skin and a seductive smile? No. And it’s a good thing MtG art, for the majority of its existence, hasn’t been that way.
Again, this is fantasy.
I'm not talking just about MtG, I'm talking about art in general. Sexualizing and objectifying women, which, yes, MtG has done less since basically the start, is sexist.
And, yes, I know this is fantasy. That doesn't change the fact that it reflects trends/mores of the real world, which include sexism.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
Fair enough I guess. To me there was already very little to begin with, and today there's even less.
Stop. Just stop. This is incorrect. Doesn’t matter what you try and apply it to, you are just flat out wrong. If you don’t understand a word, don’t use it. You are encouraging group think about a term you are using incorrectly. It is, at its core, propaganda.
Ok, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree or something, but I'm pretty sure I know what sexism is, given that I'm a woman.
GENERATION 12: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your signature and add 1 to the generation number. It's a social experiment.
Now that right there is sexist. Good job!
Don't forget the post not too long ago about someone embarrassed to play Lost Souls with his mother because well... she's nude. The card, not the posters mother. That little shadow... right there... see that? Get a loupe, you can see it better....
Having a super exposed body doesn't always correlate to attraction. Sometimes it's a bit forced and quite tacky. I've been a fan of the art direction for a while now.
Startled Awake. I find the woman to be quite attractive especially with the way the artist has her nightgown strap hanging off her shoulder. And the way she seems to move on Persistent Nightmare is attractive too.
Tragic Poet (Dominaria): I find that attractive.
Teysa Karlov: I find her look attractive.
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade (promo and regular): Some might say she's "butch" but I think she's cute.
Seraph of the Scales
Seraph of the Sword
Emmara, Soul of the Accord (Promo and regular)
Survive the Night: Very attractive as wearing a nightgown donning a crossbow to fend off a horde of zombies/undead.
Strength of Arms: Thalia depicted as a strong fighter in spite of her feminine nature.
Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain: Utterly gorgeous.
To be honest I loved the art direction for Shadows Over Innistrad a lot. The women/females were very well depicted.
A woman doesn't need to have anime-style design to make her look attractive. Maybe to some pubescent fanboy/girl but to many others it isn't.
'buster
HR Analyst. Gamer. Activist | Fearless, and forthright | Aggro-control is a mindset.
Elspeth and Jhoira rock my world.
Why the need for this? You could have very easily ended your post without this comment and it wouldn’t have mattered. So those that prefer that style are “pubescent fanboys/girls”? There could be just as “many” that prefer that style of art.
Damn, first a women claims to know sexism because she’s a woman, then you go ahead and say “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” unless you like a certain art style, because that’s childish.
And to clarify the point, nobody here has “shat on” these opinions of yours(and lookashiny). It’s quite the opposite. You’ve gone out and labeled a group of people that don’t agree with you. How lovely.
Edit: Popluar opinion time! Somebody should lock this thread before it continues. This is like that featured article a while back where “men are nazis”.
But I can't say they are ugly. I mean Vannifar looks pretty nice and she is a half-slime.
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Give a round of applause
For the great Miss Y!
Art is life itself.