Just a thought, but WotC could always reduce print run, thereby reducing the amount of regular booster boxes out there and "forcing" distributors and stores to buy into this product more heavily to make up the shortage. I find that unlikely in the position Hasbro is in, but you never know.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Just a thought, but WotC could always reduce print run, thereby reducing the amount of regular booster boxes out there and "forcing" distributors and stores to buy into this product more heavily to make up the shortage. I find that unlikely in the position Hasbro is in, but you never know.
I know it's just a thought, but I'll bluntly just say they won't (and probably will never either).
Regular Standard Booster Packs are in a way a baseline. It's the basic "introduction" to the booster lottery system to new players and considering how much emphasis WotC likes to put onto products "for beginners" (many of them utilizing boosters themselves), it's literally the pillar of support to them.
One important factor I no doubt know WotC has it clear in their head is that new players are wary about buying product and that the forefront price is what they often determine their decision. It doesn't matter if a higher-priced product (Tournament Packs / Booster Boxes) have a better value-for-money, because new players don't analyze that much. Short of the dollar-pack system (which generally is a disaster because that system is generally a feel-bad one with its instability of rares), the cheapest product is generally the booster pack.
They will never sacrifice what is essentially their best system for ensnaring new players just to push some ancillary product. Sure, strictly speaking there might be an actual statistical formula of reduction that might result in optimal gains, but generally logistically speaking they will not take that risk.
Also, Collector's Packs are basically "Standard Masters" if you think about it. Sure, it doesn't follow the normal pattern of Masters Packs (hence not sharing the branding), but it's Standard... even they would not take us for fools who will buy a Masters-Style product for sets of the past 2 years (where even useful commons are worthless). I mean, they even increased the 1-foil-per-pack to 2-foils-per-pack on top of the "it's pretty much just 3 packs bundled together in terms of uncommons & rares"... which is pretty fair value especially when put against regular Masters' blatant lottery) just to lure us in.
I feel like the more I discuss about these new packs the more positive I feel about them (despite acknowledging it's not perfect and definitely won't appeal to everyone). It's pretty much a product for the enfranchised player done much better than their other attempts (like regular Masters...). Sure, it isn't exactly Tournament Packs, but I also acknowledge that being literally 3 packs bundled together rather than "only pretty much" 3 packs in essence brought a whole world of redundancy from WotC/Hasbro's perspective (remember boosters are the pillar to them) and while we as players definitely bemoan the loss of the commons, at the same time, it also seems we're being too calculative (and entitled) to think we deserve a "strictly better product". But perspective matters, so I guess I look like I'm "settling for mediocrity" to those who I look to as "too calculative".
I can remember the first sealed product I ever convinced my mum to purchase while walking around a large shop, as a young 'un. It was a 4th edition tournament pack (here: they look like this. She agreed to buy one pack, so naturally I opted for the larger pack instead of a single booster.
I still remember opening that pack, and the cards in it. alabaster potion was the first card, and armageddon was second. It was such a formative experience for me, despite having owned cards (mostly gifts from my uncle) from Alpha onwards, this was the first time I had fresh, sealed product of my own. Who would have predicted the lifelong joy that would follow.
That said, I'm not sure they make sense anymore. It's all about the value of the included lands. Are they worth it? probably not. I'd stratify MTG products into tiers as follows::
0.5- a beginner's set, like Portal (remember that?). Needs to be able to exist without hitting income targets for a regular standard set. Should tie into Arena very strongly! promo codes, booster unlock cards for online, etc. Should be cheaper and aimed at involving people in the ecosystem/community rather than getting people to draft.
1- Standard boosters. most basic tier of product
2- preconstructed theme decks for standard blocks, similar to the old theme decks. Those products were fantastic at bringing together flavour and collection-building, and a fun way to play with friends. I'd wager that the majority of my time as a player has been informed and sculpted by those theme decks, even though they were discontinued some years ago. They formed the backbone of my playgroup's collections for a long time, and helped to sculpt everyone's own personal 'colour' identities within our social circle as well. What was brilliant about them was the no-nonsense, basic packaging. No big blister-packs, no huge boxes. Simple easy-to-grasp themes and several choices for each new set which showcased mechanics and new cards. For a time, I preferred to purchase these products instead of boosters or singles.
3- highly focused format specific products: commander decks, Modern reprint packs (NOT designed for draft, but packs of format staples aimed at increasing accessibility), FNM-pitched tournament/challenger decks for Standard or Modern, with generous inclusions of the important cards.
4- the rare, (perhaps annual) occasional experimental product (see: Planechase/Archenemy which were both great). Notably these should also include needed reprints for formats like Modern.
and that's probably where I'd leave it.
less is more, right?
This product doesn't make sense. It doesn't fill a need. It doesn't have a real market it serves.
In many ways the game has evolved away from it. And there's no tangible benefit for going back to it. Nostalgia isn't enough.
So where is this better?
Sealed events?
Nope. Boosters accomplish the same thing. The box is not relevant to too many players as sleeves are so prevalent. The lands provided aren't sufficient and needs to be supplemented, so the benefits there are gone too (if your providing excess land for the event anyway, it doesn't need to come in the sealed product).
Established players?
Not really. They don't need the lands, especially with a land in every booster. Again, sleeves and a thriving market of supplemental products for better storage boxes mean the cheap cardboard boxes aren't relevant. The only argument I am seeing in this thread is basically an inefficiency in conversion rate due to the extra uncommon, but that's not inherent in the product. A tournament pack doesn't have to have 10 uncommons for 3 packs worth of cards by default. By the same token, WotC could make booster packs with 4 uncommons each.
New players?
Nope. Cutting a sealed deck down to a playable product takes skill, which new players don't have, or creates a relatively poor play experience. Sure, I learned to play off of sealed product, but even 24 years ago stores were creating better starter products. Now, instead of makeshift ones like I got in the mid '90s, there are quality starter products like deckbuilders toolkits or theme decks with packs to create a workable base with the supplemental randomness. And those new products are better at providing needed lands than the tournament packs would be.
I see the nostalgia desire for them, but that won't last and doesn't mean they are a good product.
I remember asking my LGS about it when they discontinued them. I was told then that they were terrible sellers. Since they sold poorly, and they don't serve a need, why would they be a good idea to bring back?
This product doesn't make sense. It doesn't fill a need. It doesn't have a real market it serves.
Your point is taken, and I hope you have voted your feelings on it. Currently over two thirds of voters are in favor of them. To that majority is does make sense and would serve that niche of the market. Niche products are needed by manufacturers, not everyone wants Coke or Pepsi.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
This product doesn't make sense. It doesn't fill a need. It doesn't have a real market it serves.
Your point is taken, and I hope you have voted your feelings on it. Currently over two thirds of voters are in favor of them. To that majority is does make sense and would serve that niche of the market. Niche products are needed by manufacturers, not everyone wants Coke or Pepsi.
my opinion has changed.
I personally loved these 'larger boosters' and if there was some significant benefit to the inclusion of lands (i.e. full-arts or something) then I could see some value being attributed for these. Otherwise it's just a 'big booster' and i'm not sure that's enough.
still... who knows, eh?
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I think they've almost captured the magic of tournament packs with the guild boosters and they simply are leery of wanting to release something that could cause decision paralysis between a guild booster, tournament deck, and fat pack. Right now the fat packs for ravnica are selling out because it's the only way to get basic lands, including foils. Once the guild kits come out there will be another special type of water marked basic land to help those sell.
I can't say that I'm really thrilled that the only selling point left in any sealed magic product is the lands, but at this point wizards has basically created their own self afflicted tragedy with only reprinting valuable non-land cards in special forms or super luxury products. Heck, if something ends up being super popular I wouldn't be surprised to hear that person got a questionable look at a meeting and then all of us finding out they will never reprint the card again... until they make a masters set and are like "surprise! We printed it again at mythic!" long after the price went out of control.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This product doesn't make sense. It doesn't fill a need. It doesn't have a real market it serves.
Your point is taken, and I hope you have voted your feelings on it. Currently over two thirds of voters are in favor of them. To that majority is does make sense and would serve that niche of the market. Niche products are needed by manufacturers, not everyone wants Coke or Pepsi.
Be careful trusting that. The people who care about tournament packs are the ones who are going to click the link about tournament packs.
This product doesn't make sense. It doesn't fill a need. It doesn't have a real market it serves.
Your point is taken, and I hope you have voted your feelings on it. Currently over two thirds of voters are in favor of them. To that majority is does make sense and would serve that niche of the market. Niche products are needed by manufacturers, not everyone wants Coke or Pepsi.
Be careful trusting that. The people who care about tournament packs are the ones who are going to click the link about tournament packs.
Understood. We are all niche members here on the site as well, a tiny fraction of the overall purchasers. The fact that WotC is kicking out these new packs says there may be a market for them, or least to test the waters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Well, on the subject of tournament packs I believe the reason we will not see a return are due to the change to the way people play the game and get their needed secondary goods. Tournament decks were from a time where people would buy their storage boxes at the baseball cards shop and pre-release events were special events held at select locations. When Hasbro bought out wizards of the coast, they had to start introducing products to supermarkets where potential customers wouldn't have access to trading card storage boxes. That's likely the reason they started making fat packs with the release of Mercadian Masques. At the time, fat packs had novels in them and 8 booster packs in order to differentiate them from tournament packs.
Years later wizards decided they also wanted to expand the pre-release support to local stores. The oldest point I can remember where store pre-releases started getting support at the local level was sometime in 2008 and I'm pretty sure it was with shards of Alara. Shortly after that they redid theme decks to be intro packs and stopped making tournament decks. Zendikar block had pre-release booster boxes, and when Scars block got released they started doing gimmicks with pre-releases, such as the faction packs with Besieged.
Pre-release support was the final nail in the coffin for tournament packs, as their purpose basically got ursurped by land stations, pre-release packs, and fat packs.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Wizards also said Origins would be the last core set. We know how that turned out.
Never say never.
Again, these new triple boosters are testing the waters. And it may be all we get, not a full fledged tourney pack. Sales of these may chart a course for the full version in the future or it may close the door. I hope for the former.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Wizards also said Origins would be the last core set. We know how that turned out.
Never say never.
Again, these new triple boosters are testing the waters. And it may be all we get, not a full fledged tourney pack. Sales of these may chart a course for the full version in the future or it may close the door. I hope for the former.
The biggest reason to go back to tournament packs is to save money on packaging. They used double sized playing card boxes with shrink wrap that had a single hook hot glued to them. The fancy boxes for the planeswalker decks and even the dual decks require injection molds that use recyclable heat sensitive plastics. At this point they should have the equipment already built for this so it largely comes down to how much more money it takes to produce the injection mold boxes vs the simple tournament packs.
FYI, the cost for adding injection molding to the product construction process is mostly upfront, but it is not insignificant if they have product redesigns.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
I know it's just a thought, but I'll bluntly just say they won't (and probably will never either).
Regular Standard Booster Packs are in a way a baseline. It's the basic "introduction" to the booster lottery system to new players and considering how much emphasis WotC likes to put onto products "for beginners" (many of them utilizing boosters themselves), it's literally the pillar of support to them.
One important factor I no doubt know WotC has it clear in their head is that new players are wary about buying product and that the forefront price is what they often determine their decision. It doesn't matter if a higher-priced product (Tournament Packs / Booster Boxes) have a better value-for-money, because new players don't analyze that much. Short of the dollar-pack system (which generally is a disaster because that system is generally a feel-bad one with its instability of rares), the cheapest product is generally the booster pack.
They will never sacrifice what is essentially their best system for ensnaring new players just to push some ancillary product. Sure, strictly speaking there might be an actual statistical formula of reduction that might result in optimal gains, but generally logistically speaking they will not take that risk.
Also, Collector's Packs are basically "Standard Masters" if you think about it. Sure, it doesn't follow the normal pattern of Masters Packs (hence not sharing the branding), but it's Standard... even they would not take us for fools who will buy a Masters-Style product for sets of the past 2 years (where even useful commons are worthless). I mean, they even increased the 1-foil-per-pack to 2-foils-per-pack on top of the "it's pretty much just 3 packs bundled together in terms of uncommons & rares"... which is pretty fair value especially when put against regular Masters' blatant lottery) just to lure us in.
I feel like the more I discuss about these new packs the more positive I feel about them (despite acknowledging it's not perfect and definitely won't appeal to everyone). It's pretty much a product for the enfranchised player done much better than their other attempts (like regular Masters...). Sure, it isn't exactly Tournament Packs, but I also acknowledge that being literally 3 packs bundled together rather than "only pretty much" 3 packs in essence brought a whole world of redundancy from WotC/Hasbro's perspective (remember boosters are the pillar to them) and while we as players definitely bemoan the loss of the commons, at the same time, it also seems we're being too calculative (and entitled) to think we deserve a "strictly better product". But perspective matters, so I guess I look like I'm "settling for mediocrity" to those who I look to as "too calculative".
I still remember opening that pack, and the cards in it. alabaster potion was the first card, and armageddon was second. It was such a formative experience for me, despite having owned cards (mostly gifts from my uncle) from Alpha onwards, this was the first time I had fresh, sealed product of my own. Who would have predicted the lifelong joy that would follow.
That said, I'm not sure they make sense anymore. It's all about the value of the included lands. Are they worth it? probably not. I'd stratify MTG products into tiers as follows::
0.5- a beginner's set, like Portal (remember that?). Needs to be able to exist without hitting income targets for a regular standard set. Should tie into Arena very strongly! promo codes, booster unlock cards for online, etc. Should be cheaper and aimed at involving people in the ecosystem/community rather than getting people to draft.
1- Standard boosters. most basic tier of product
2- preconstructed theme decks for standard blocks, similar to the old theme decks. Those products were fantastic at bringing together flavour and collection-building, and a fun way to play with friends. I'd wager that the majority of my time as a player has been informed and sculpted by those theme decks, even though they were discontinued some years ago. They formed the backbone of my playgroup's collections for a long time, and helped to sculpt everyone's own personal 'colour' identities within our social circle as well. What was brilliant about them was the no-nonsense, basic packaging. No big blister-packs, no huge boxes. Simple easy-to-grasp themes and several choices for each new set which showcased mechanics and new cards. For a time, I preferred to purchase these products instead of boosters or singles.
3- highly focused format specific products: commander decks, Modern reprint packs (NOT designed for draft, but packs of format staples aimed at increasing accessibility), FNM-pitched tournament/challenger decks for Standard or Modern, with generous inclusions of the important cards.
4- the rare, (perhaps annual) occasional experimental product (see: Planechase/Archenemy which were both great). Notably these should also include needed reprints for formats like Modern.
and that's probably where I'd leave it.
less is more, right?
In many ways the game has evolved away from it. And there's no tangible benefit for going back to it. Nostalgia isn't enough.
So where is this better?
Sealed events?
Nope. Boosters accomplish the same thing. The box is not relevant to too many players as sleeves are so prevalent. The lands provided aren't sufficient and needs to be supplemented, so the benefits there are gone too (if your providing excess land for the event anyway, it doesn't need to come in the sealed product).
Established players?
Not really. They don't need the lands, especially with a land in every booster. Again, sleeves and a thriving market of supplemental products for better storage boxes mean the cheap cardboard boxes aren't relevant. The only argument I am seeing in this thread is basically an inefficiency in conversion rate due to the extra uncommon, but that's not inherent in the product. A tournament pack doesn't have to have 10 uncommons for 3 packs worth of cards by default. By the same token, WotC could make booster packs with 4 uncommons each.
New players?
Nope. Cutting a sealed deck down to a playable product takes skill, which new players don't have, or creates a relatively poor play experience. Sure, I learned to play off of sealed product, but even 24 years ago stores were creating better starter products. Now, instead of makeshift ones like I got in the mid '90s, there are quality starter products like deckbuilders toolkits or theme decks with packs to create a workable base with the supplemental randomness. And those new products are better at providing needed lands than the tournament packs would be.
I see the nostalgia desire for them, but that won't last and doesn't mean they are a good product.
I remember asking my LGS about it when they discontinued them. I was told then that they were terrible sellers. Since they sold poorly, and they don't serve a need, why would they be a good idea to bring back?
Your point is taken, and I hope you have voted your feelings on it. Currently over two thirds of voters are in favor of them. To that majority is does make sense and would serve that niche of the market. Niche products are needed by manufacturers, not everyone wants Coke or Pepsi.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
my opinion has changed.
I personally loved these 'larger boosters' and if there was some significant benefit to the inclusion of lands (i.e. full-arts or something) then I could see some value being attributed for these. Otherwise it's just a 'big booster' and i'm not sure that's enough.
still... who knows, eh?
I can't say that I'm really thrilled that the only selling point left in any sealed magic product is the lands, but at this point wizards has basically created their own self afflicted tragedy with only reprinting valuable non-land cards in special forms or super luxury products. Heck, if something ends up being super popular I wouldn't be surprised to hear that person got a questionable look at a meeting and then all of us finding out they will never reprint the card again... until they make a masters set and are like "surprise! We printed it again at mythic!" long after the price went out of control.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Be careful trusting that. The people who care about tournament packs are the ones who are going to click the link about tournament packs.
Understood. We are all niche members here on the site as well, a tiny fraction of the overall purchasers. The fact that WotC is kicking out these new packs says there may be a market for them, or least to test the waters.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Years later wizards decided they also wanted to expand the pre-release support to local stores. The oldest point I can remember where store pre-releases started getting support at the local level was sometime in 2008 and I'm pretty sure it was with shards of Alara. Shortly after that they redid theme decks to be intro packs and stopped making tournament decks. Zendikar block had pre-release booster boxes, and when Scars block got released they started doing gimmicks with pre-releases, such as the faction packs with Besieged.
Pre-release support was the final nail in the coffin for tournament packs, as their purpose basically got ursurped by land stations, pre-release packs, and fat packs.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Never say never.
Again, these new triple boosters are testing the waters. And it may be all we get, not a full fledged tourney pack. Sales of these may chart a course for the full version in the future or it may close the door. I hope for the former.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
The biggest reason to go back to tournament packs is to save money on packaging. They used double sized playing card boxes with shrink wrap that had a single hook hot glued to them. The fancy boxes for the planeswalker decks and even the dual decks require injection molds that use recyclable heat sensitive plastics. At this point they should have the equipment already built for this so it largely comes down to how much more money it takes to produce the injection mold boxes vs the simple tournament packs.
FYI, the cost for adding injection molding to the product construction process is mostly upfront, but it is not insignificant if they have product redesigns.
How it's Made: Injection Molds
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!