I had this situation occur to me tonight. I was playing in a Pauper tournament at a local game store. My opponent was playing Boros Monarch and I was playing a UR Control deck. The score was 1-1 for the round, both games a bit drawn out since we were both playing the slow decks.
In the 3rd round, my opponent was playing very meticulously, thinking through every play, constantly asking how many cards were in my hand...I think once he even took 2 minutes for a turn. He wasn't stalling and I know there wasn't any intent to stall on his part, having played him many times and seeing how thoroughly he thinks out situations.
I actually had a weak hand in the 3rd match, and if I did win at all, it would probably have been after time ran out. So him playing slowly was a strategic advantage to me. I was playing at a perfectly prompt pace, not at all slow playing myself. The game did end up going to a draw, which he would've won since he'd just got a huge amount of card advantage from a Gravestorm.
The question is, was it wrong for me to not tell my opponent, "Hey, you should probably play faster since this match might go to time?" Or was that all on him, and there's nothing wrong with letting an opponent play at a slow pace when it favors you?
I would say that deliberate slow play is wrong, but if you are playing at a proper speed yourself, there is no reason you should have to. it's like missed optional triggers, any advantage that is not cheating is on them to take advantage of
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I see this more as a rules question than an ethics question, because players ought to have explicit guidelines to know when they are obliged to take an action that hurts them, that way "doing the right thing" is required and more than an option that taxes kind-hearted people. I don't know the rules answer.
Back in ethics land, I think it is good to inform them that they are slow playing, for reasons broader than the single outcome of the game. Playing slowly is a bad habit. That guy needs to be told when he's playing too slow or he won't recognize his problem. One day his problem benefits you, but is that the generic case? I would expect in most cases it doesn't benefit you (especially considering it's giving him more time to think), and it's a time loss for everybody at the tournament waiting for the round to end.
You can't control your opponent. You can't make him play faster. At best, you can call a judge. But you don't _have_ to call a judge, either.
However, if you do care for the opponent, you might want to tell him that playing slow is a bad idea in general. In that game, it benefitted you. But what if you play each other again in the future? Or he plays slow with other opponents? Nipping that in the bud right now serves evertone's future interests.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
To put it beyond political correctness: there is no nobility in sacrifice.
You are not obligated to tell your opponent they are making subpar decisions. You don't have to tell your opponent they could block in a better fashion. You don't have to tell them they can swing for lethal. Your responsibility is to not misrepresent the board state at all, then allow them to make their own decisions. Remember, he doesn't know what is in your hand. He has no idea if his being methodical is worth the time. A friend of mine has a similar issue. He is way too concerned with punting and plays slowly even on faster decks. You just have to go through it and learn.
To put it beyond political correctness: there is no nobility in sacrifice.
You are not obligated to tell your opponent they are making subpar decisions. You don't have to tell your opponent they could block in a better fashion. You don't have to tell them they can swing for lethal. Your responsibility is to not misrepresent the board state at all, then allow them to make their own decisions. Remember, he doesn't know what is in your hand. He has no idea if his being methodical is worth the time. A friend of mine has a similar issue. He is way too concerned with punting and plays slowly even on faster decks. You just have to go through it and learn.
I don't necessarily agree with this idea but the facts don't lie. It is how it is. I have a player at my LGS that plays so slow that it's not uncommon to go to time even with faster decks. What he does is literally analyze each and every card in his hand and how it/they might interact with every other card on the field or in his hand. It a big deal T1 but a big deal on T10 and there's 20 or 30 total permanents down. Even when he played Duress he split the card into two piles after reading each one then analyzed the cards he could force me to discard. I only had five freakin' cards in my hand!!
But patience is key so I just sit back and, like BlueTron says, simply answer his questions about the board state. Yes, again, the green glass bead is a +1/+1 counter...
Ask your opponent to practice their deck after the game ends, because they'll probably get mad if you tell them they're being too slow during the game, and that'll slow the match even more.
Good fast play means more time for future games, and you're all here to play.
Ask your opponent to practice their deck after the game ends, because they'll probably get mad if you tell them they're being too slow during the game, and that'll slow the match even more.
Good fast play means more time for future games, and you're all here to play.
It's hard to get across the subtleties of the situation, because my opponent wasn't play excessively slowly per se, but they definitely weren't playing quickly. Like, you have "playing at a normal pace," and then "playing at a quick pace because you're cognisant of the clock and want to hurry it up," and he should have been playing the 2nd way.
He's also played that deck for many weeks in a row, so he knows it in and out. But it was definitely a difficult match because we were both decks that keep large hands, and have lots of burn (Lightning Bolt, Galvanic Blast, and Firebolt), and also had ways to stop burn (Counterspell, Hydroblast, Prismatic Strands, etc)...so it was a matchup where both of us could instantly kill the other out of nowhere, and had to consider how much mana to leave to counter that. So it's definitely an intense match-up and requires thought. I practice meditation and consider myself pretty cool-headed, but I noticed at points throughout the game that his hands were literally shaking.
So it's definitely an intense match-up and requires thought. I practice meditation and consider myself pretty cool-headed, but I noticed at points throughout the game that his hands were literally shaking.
Oh yeah, I've had games similar to that but it's usually because I've been playing for hours and forgot to eat.
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The deal with "slow-play" is that its not fair to play the clock.
The moment you slow-play and it is to your dis-advnatage, you just hurt yourself, so thats more or less totally fine for the opponent, so chances are they wont mind.
In casual events you probably will call them out, simply because its annoying and not fun at all if a game slows to a crawl, everyone has to learn that thinking is fine, but "overthinking" is not.
You're not obligated to say anything to your opponent in this situation. If they're not playing so slowly as to qualify as stalling or slow play, you're not required to do anything; otherwise there may be a requirement to report - ask a judge or check the tournament rules for that. Ethically, I think you're fine; it's your opponent's call whether they value playing correctly more than finishing their match in time, and it's your call whether you care more about finishing the match in time or getting a draw that's good for you.
If you do need to prod your opponent to play faster... the trick is to not phrase it as an accusation or as a demand and recognize that it's both players' responsibility to maintain the pace of play. "Hey, this first game took 20 minutes to complete, we should probably pick up the pace if we want to finish in time."
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
Look, I don't think you're required to tell your opponent about time. I don't think it's ethically wrong to give your opponent any advantage they don't need. If your opponent didn't seem under duress outside the norm, I don't think you have any need to give them playing tips.
However, how did your opponent playing W/R Boros Monarch end up playing a BBB card? And a rare at that in Pauper? There's some worse ethical things going on here than slow play.
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However, how did your opponent playing W/R Boros Monarch end up playing a BBB card? And a rare at that in Pauper? There's some worse ethical things going on here than slow play.
That's my bad, I meant the card Reaping the Graves. Very brutal sideboard tech in grindy Pauper matches. Just mixed it up because it has Storm, "Graves" in the name, and Gravestorm is a mechanic from Time Spiral block.
In the 3rd round, my opponent was playing very meticulously, thinking through every play, constantly asking how many cards were in my hand...I think once he even took 2 minutes for a turn. He wasn't stalling and I know there wasn't any intent to stall on his part, having played him many times and seeing how thoroughly he thinks out situations.
I actually had a weak hand in the 3rd match, and if I did win at all, it would probably have been after time ran out. So him playing slowly was a strategic advantage to me. I was playing at a perfectly prompt pace, not at all slow playing myself. The game did end up going to a draw, which he would've won since he'd just got a huge amount of card advantage from a Gravestorm.
The question is, was it wrong for me to not tell my opponent, "Hey, you should probably play faster since this match might go to time?" Or was that all on him, and there's nothing wrong with letting an opponent play at a slow pace when it favors you?
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
Back in ethics land, I think it is good to inform them that they are slow playing, for reasons broader than the single outcome of the game. Playing slowly is a bad habit. That guy needs to be told when he's playing too slow or he won't recognize his problem. One day his problem benefits you, but is that the generic case? I would expect in most cases it doesn't benefit you (especially considering it's giving him more time to think), and it's a time loss for everybody at the tournament waiting for the round to end.
However, if you do care for the opponent, you might want to tell him that playing slow is a bad idea in general. In that game, it benefitted you. But what if you play each other again in the future? Or he plays slow with other opponents? Nipping that in the bud right now serves evertone's future interests.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
You are not obligated to tell your opponent they are making subpar decisions. You don't have to tell your opponent they could block in a better fashion. You don't have to tell them they can swing for lethal. Your responsibility is to not misrepresent the board state at all, then allow them to make their own decisions. Remember, he doesn't know what is in your hand. He has no idea if his being methodical is worth the time. A friend of mine has a similar issue. He is way too concerned with punting and plays slowly even on faster decks. You just have to go through it and learn.
I don't necessarily agree with this idea but the facts don't lie. It is how it is. I have a player at my LGS that plays so slow that it's not uncommon to go to time even with faster decks. What he does is literally analyze each and every card in his hand and how it/they might interact with every other card on the field or in his hand. It a big deal T1 but a big deal on T10 and there's 20 or 30 total permanents down. Even when he played Duress he split the card into two piles after reading each one then analyzed the cards he could force me to discard. I only had five freakin' cards in my hand!!
But patience is key so I just sit back and, like BlueTron says, simply answer his questions about the board state. Yes, again, the green glass bead is a +1/+1 counter...
Good fast play means more time for future games, and you're all here to play.
Are you trying to sound like the final boss of a JRPG? Because if you are, good job.
Art is life itself.
It's hard to get across the subtleties of the situation, because my opponent wasn't play excessively slowly per se, but they definitely weren't playing quickly. Like, you have "playing at a normal pace," and then "playing at a quick pace because you're cognisant of the clock and want to hurry it up," and he should have been playing the 2nd way.
He's also played that deck for many weeks in a row, so he knows it in and out. But it was definitely a difficult match because we were both decks that keep large hands, and have lots of burn (Lightning Bolt, Galvanic Blast, and Firebolt), and also had ways to stop burn (Counterspell, Hydroblast, Prismatic Strands, etc)...so it was a matchup where both of us could instantly kill the other out of nowhere, and had to consider how much mana to leave to counter that. So it's definitely an intense match-up and requires thought. I practice meditation and consider myself pretty cool-headed, but I noticed at points throughout the game that his hands were literally shaking.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU
Art is life itself.
The moment you slow-play and it is to your dis-advnatage, you just hurt yourself, so thats more or less totally fine for the opponent, so chances are they wont mind.
In casual events you probably will call them out, simply because its annoying and not fun at all if a game slows to a crawl, everyone has to learn that thinking is fine, but "overthinking" is not.
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If you do need to prod your opponent to play faster... the trick is to not phrase it as an accusation or as a demand and recognize that it's both players' responsibility to maintain the pace of play. "Hey, this first game took 20 minutes to complete, we should probably pick up the pace if we want to finish in time."
However, how did your opponent playing W/R Boros Monarch end up playing a BBB card? And a rare at that in Pauper? There's some worse ethical things going on here than slow play.
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Extremeicon's Hamster-balled soul
Istanbul's Soul, Bidder of Myself
votan's Linux-loving Soul
grappler12's Poop-smithing Soul
Sir Blakely's Fencing Soul
CraZedMiKe's Soul Transferred Back at His Request
HAWKEYE 7's Calvin and Hobbes Loving Soul
Tanthalas' Greek Alliance Soul
Avatar of Kokusho's Island-Hating Soul
Salubrious' Rather-Belatedly Added Soul
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That's my bad, I meant the card Reaping the Graves. Very brutal sideboard tech in grindy Pauper matches. Just mixed it up because it has Storm, "Graves" in the name, and Gravestorm is a mechanic from Time Spiral block.
Corrupt Control B | Burn R | UG Turbofog UG | White Weenie W | GW Tethmos WG | BG Cycling Combo BG
Enchantress GBW | Colorless Tron C | Red Deck Wins R | UG Madness UG | Mono-G Tron G | UR Puzzlehorns UR
Rhystic Tron WU| WU Prowess WU | BR Reanimator BR | Mono-R Control R | Stompy G | Temur Tron URG
Mardu Infinite Priest WBR | 85-Card Dredge BRG | Elves GU | Boros Bully RW | Jeskai Familiars RWU