Suncleanser
The ability in question is the choice of: "Target opponent loses all counters. That player cant get counters for as long as Suncleanser remains on the battlefield."
It specifies "OPPONENT", but the only counters I can think of that players can get are like infect counters, which you would want to block from yourself. The only thing I can think of that you would want to keep off opponents is energy counters, if Suncleanser is applicable to those type of counters. So how does it make any sense for this ability to only target opponents? Is there a counter type I'm missing?
I bet MaRo (or his advocates) fought hard for this to target opponents only. You know how he loves Infect!
I believe there is an older card that removed infect. I have a couple of the mono white amonkhet card that stops all counters period on everything, (but existing counters remain in place), There's also a card coming in the new Ravenica set that directly removes infect. So keeping this card opponents only seems odd since that Ravenica card is on the way, and I doubt it will be the only card in the set that cab deal with infect.
There's also a card coming in the new Ravenica set that directly removes infect.
I'm gonna need supporting data on this one.
EDIT: The old card which removes poison is called Leeches, and it's a rare from Homelands.
I also think it should be able to target controller, I don't think this hosing infect would be a big deal.
Infect was designed as a horror-story type mechanic, meant to make players feel uneasy because poison can't easily removed. Having too much anti-poison tech damages the emotive core of the design.
He also mentioned on Blogatog that poison counters being impossible to remove is at the core of making them feel and be different than just another life total, or something along those lines. Don't have a link to the post right now, but yes, he confirmed (either there or on his column) that he did indeed stop this from targetting yourself specifically to keep it from interacting with your own poison counters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Note, opponent can mean "other players in multiplayer". Since multoplayer is often political, you can remove one opponent's poison counters in return for a facor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
There's also a card coming in the new Ravenica set that directly removes infect.
I'm gonna need supporting data on this one.
EDIT: The old card which removes poison is called Leeches, and it's a rare from Homelands.
I also think it should be able to target controller, I don't think this hosing infect would be a big deal.
Infect was designed as a horror-story type mechanic, meant to make players feel uneasy because poison can't easily removed. Having too much anti-poison tech damages the emotive core of the design.
The ways in which I don't give a toss about the emotive core of the design are too numerous to mention, and that is probably true of most players in sanctioned events who want to play a game with tools to fight every strategy. You could call STP or FOW "my aunt Alice" and it is still getting played and nobody cares about the name, feel or emotive core. In Legacy you go from 0 or 1 counters to dead t2. It is a game, the game needs infect hosers that work at the speed of the formats in which infect is played, this could have been one of them. In the draft format Scars was an enormous flop because removing poison counters was not possible. The game dog should wag the flavour/flavor tail.
He also mentioned on Blogatog that poison counters being impossible to remove is at the core of making them feel and be different than just another life total, or something along those lines. Don't have a link to the post right now, but yes, he confirmed (either there or on his column) that he did indeed stop this from targetting yourself specifically to keep it from interacting with your own poison counters.
Yeah, I think he did. Then again he has helped oversee the debacle that is Standard these past years, his "newbie first" strategy really backfired, and his one huge hit was a casual unglued set. It is a shame he did not get the Stoddard esque moving on, what has saved him is the fact that they often go back on ideas- Core sets, Llanowar elves, three blocks, Masterpieces etc. They certainly listen to players, and he is pretty good at issuing the mea culpa.
Why do so many other archetypes get pinpoint hosers? Core 19 alone gives us Alpine Moon, Amulet of Safekeeping, and Infernal Reckoning to hose Tron, Storm, and eldrazi, respectively. Would it be so awful to put a few chinks in infect's armor?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Why do so many other archetypes get pinpoint hosers? Core 19 alone gives us Alpine Moon, Amulet of Safekeeping, and Infernal Reckoning to hose Tron, Storm, and eldrazi, respectively. Would it be so awful to put a few chinks in infect's armor?
Infect already has to deal with Bolt, Path, Push, Infernal Reckoning (can hit Inkmoth) as well as being able to just block most of the time. You can also just play Melira, Sylvok Outcast (and I don't see her often anyway). And Blue can just counter their stuff. Solemnity can help too. Even if this did deal with Infect counters is anyone really going to play it for that when these other options already exist and don't see much play?
Infect doesn't get a pinpoint hoser because it doesn't really need one. Other forms of hate that are good against creatures in general can be effective hate for it.
Also, Infernal Reckoning is far from a "hoser" for Tron Eldrazi. It is insanely narrow and deals with one creature. It helps, but it is just a reverse Swords to Plowshares against the deck. They are free to cast another creature next turn.
Why do so many other archetypes get pinpoint hosers? Core 19 alone gives us Alpine Moon, Amulet of Safekeeping, and Infernal Reckoning to hose Tron, Storm, and eldrazi, respectively. Would it be so awful to put a few chinks in infect's armor?
Also, Infernal Reckoning is far from a "hoser" for Tron. It is insanely narrow and deals with one creature. It helps, but it is just a reverse Swords to Plowshares against the deck. They are free to cast another creature next turn.
Person A "Infernal Reckoning hoses eldrazi."
Person B "Reckoning is awful against tron. How does it hose it?"
... ... ... You're usually so much better WizardMN.
Why do so many other archetypes get pinpoint hosers? Core 19 alone gives us Alpine Moon, Amulet of Safekeeping, and Infernal Reckoning to hose Tron, Storm, and eldrazi, respectively. Would it be so awful to put a few chinks in infect's armor?
Also, Infernal Reckoning is far from a "hoser" for Tron. It is insanely narrow and deals with one creature. It helps, but it is just a reverse Swords to Plowshares against the deck. They are free to cast another creature next turn.
Person A "Infernal Reckoning hoses eldrazi."
Person B "Reckoning is awful against tron. How does it hose it?"
... ... ... You're usually so much better WizardMN.
You are correct; I mistyped "Tron" instead of "Eldrazi". I do think the point holds for Eldrazi in that it doesn't really stop them or prevent anything like the other 2 do for the mentioned archetypes.
But I agree that my response didn't really make much sense in the context of what was being said.
If wizards goofed on Suncleanser, but otherwise did a good job, I think that we're heading to a better place than we've been in for the last two years.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The ways in which I don't give a toss about the emotive core of the design are too numerous to mention, and that is probably true of most players in sanctioned events who want to play a game with tools to fight every strategy. You could call STP or FOW "my aunt Alice" and it is still getting played and nobody cares about the name, feel or emotive core.
I mean, Wizards makes most of their money from casual players so you're not the core target for the product. I've been reliably informed that feeling emotions can be good for humans.
Infect doesn't get a pinpoint hoser because it doesn't really need one. Other forms of hate that are good against creatures in general can be effective hate for it.
Is infect regularly a top ten deck in legacy? Like, if it's horribly powerful against certain decks but gets blown up by the rest of the meta it's probably fine?
EDIT: It's apparently below tier three on the legacy and modern rankings, with a play rate of 2%. According to this thing anyway.
The ways in which I don't give a toss about the emotive core of the design are too numerous to mention, and that is probably true of most players in sanctioned events who want to play a game with tools to fight every strategy. You could call STP or FOW "my aunt Alice" and it is still getting played and nobody cares about the name, feel or emotive core. In Legacy you go from 0 or 1 counters to dead t2. It is a game, the game needs infect hosers that work at the speed of the formats in which infect is played, this could have been one of them. In the draft format Scars was an enormous flop because removing poison counters was not possible. The game dog should wag the flavour/flavor tail.
How many poison counters would you like to be able to remove if your getting them all at once ?
Anyway, I don't really care if there is a card that removes poison counters or not, just your attitude compelled me to argue with you, and that your one of those players that thinks the cards could be a serial # with a text box and that would be fine.
Flavor is integral to the game, it's not the a dog and none of it's parts should be wagging the other. It is a creative outlet besides a game and many things to many people. Competitive legacy isn't the only scene that matters.
I would have been happy with reprinting Leeches (or a functional equivalent) in Scars block. Yes, it undoes the work Infect has done up to that point... but it also deals damage to the player losing the counters, so the work is only cut in half, not completely undone. Infect doesn't need a swath of hate cards, but one would be nice.
The ways in which I don't give a toss about the emotive core of the design are too numerous to mention, and that is probably true of most players in sanctioned events who want to play a game with tools to fight every strategy. You could call STP or FOW "my aunt Alice" and it is still getting played and nobody cares about the name, feel or emotive core. In Legacy you go from 0 or 1 counters to dead t2. It is a game, the game needs infect hosers that work at the speed of the formats in which infect is played, this could have been one of them. In the draft format Scars was an enormous flop because removing poison counters was not possible. The game dog should wag the flavour/flavor tail.
How many poison counters would you like to be able to remove if your getting them all at once ?
Anyway, I don't really care if there is a card that removes poison counters or not, just your attitude compelled me to argue with you, and that your one of those players that thinks the cards could be a serial # with a text box and that would be fine.
Flavor is integral to the game, it's not the a dog and none of it's parts should be wagging the other. It is a creative outlet besides a game and many things to many people. Competitive legacy isn't the only scene that matters.
No, draft is the number one format for WOTC in terms of pack sales, and Scars draft was screwed by not being able to remove counters. I happily admit I would rather have fewer players if it meant a better game, one where they can print cards that make game play better, and not to worry about upsetting players who tell me they can't have this card do that because in the story this happened and it does not fit with this flavour or whatever. People can like whatever they want about the game but it should always be gameplay>everything else. Remember it started as a game with almost no story and very generic flavour/flavor.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
The ability in question is the choice of: "Target opponent loses all counters. That player cant get counters for as long as Suncleanser remains on the battlefield."
It specifies "OPPONENT", but the only counters I can think of that players can get are like infect counters, which you would want to block from yourself. The only thing I can think of that you would want to keep off opponents is energy counters, if Suncleanser is applicable to those type of counters. So how does it make any sense for this ability to only target opponents? Is there a counter type I'm missing?
I also think it should be able to target controller, I don't think this hosing infect would be a big deal.
I believe there is an older card that removed infect. I have a couple of the mono white amonkhet card that stops all counters period on everything, (but existing counters remain in place), There's also a card coming in the new Ravenica set that directly removes infect. So keeping this card opponents only seems odd since that Ravenica card is on the way, and I doubt it will be the only card in the set that cab deal with infect.
EDIT: The old card which removes poison is called Leeches, and it's a rare from Homelands.
Infect was designed as a horror-story type mechanic, meant to make players feel uneasy because poison can't easily removed. Having too much anti-poison tech damages the emotive core of the design.
Art is life itself.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The ways in which I don't give a toss about the emotive core of the design are too numerous to mention, and that is probably true of most players in sanctioned events who want to play a game with tools to fight every strategy. You could call STP or FOW "my aunt Alice" and it is still getting played and nobody cares about the name, feel or emotive core. In Legacy you go from 0 or 1 counters to dead t2. It is a game, the game needs infect hosers that work at the speed of the formats in which infect is played, this could have been one of them. In the draft format Scars was an enormous flop because removing poison counters was not possible. The game dog should wag the flavour/flavor tail.
Yeah, I think he did. Then again he has helped oversee the debacle that is Standard these past years, his "newbie first" strategy really backfired, and his one huge hit was a casual unglued set. It is a shame he did not get the Stoddard esque moving on, what has saved him is the fact that they often go back on ideas- Core sets, Llanowar elves, three blocks, Masterpieces etc. They certainly listen to players, and he is pretty good at issuing the mea culpa.
No. Emblems are their own type of object, neither tokens, counters, permanents, nor cards.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Infect doesn't get a pinpoint hoser because it doesn't really need one. Other forms of hate that are good against creatures in general can be effective hate for it.
Also, Infernal Reckoning is far from a "hoser" for
TronEldrazi. It is insanely narrow and deals with one creature. It helps, but it is just a reverse Swords to Plowshares against the deck. They are free to cast another creature next turn.Person B "Reckoning is awful against tron. How does it hose it?"
... ... ... You're usually so much better WizardMN.
But I agree that my response didn't really make much sense in the context of what was being said.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Is infect regularly a top ten deck in legacy? Like, if it's horribly powerful against certain decks but gets blown up by the rest of the meta it's probably fine?
EDIT: It's apparently below tier three on the legacy and modern rankings, with a play rate of 2%. According to this thing anyway.
Art is life itself.
How many poison counters would you like to be able to remove if your getting them all at once ?
Anyway, I don't really care if there is a card that removes poison counters or not, just your attitude compelled me to argue with you, and that your one of those players that thinks the cards could be a serial # with a text box and that would be fine.
Flavor is integral to the game, it's not the a dog and none of it's parts should be wagging the other. It is a creative outlet besides a game and many things to many people. Competitive legacy isn't the only scene that matters.
Emblems are also objects in the command zone, not something on the player.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
No, draft is the number one format for WOTC in terms of pack sales, and Scars draft was screwed by not being able to remove counters. I happily admit I would rather have fewer players if it meant a better game, one where they can print cards that make game play better, and not to worry about upsetting players who tell me they can't have this card do that because in the story this happened and it does not fit with this flavour or whatever. People can like whatever they want about the game but it should always be gameplay>everything else. Remember it started as a game with almost no story and very generic flavour/flavor.