I kept hearing on podcasts saying how WOTC is choosing to discontinue the modern masters sets. I don't see anything regarding this. I did hear that they were going to do themed/draftable sets though. But is that supposed to imply that WOTC will replace modern masters with these themed/draftable sets?
Masters sets will now be themed and not format based, so Modern reprints and Eternal reprints will be mixed. It's just the same system as Masters 25 and Iconic Masters.
I kept hearing on podcasts saying how WOTC is choosing to discontinue the modern masters sets. I don't see anything regarding this. I did hear that they were going to do themed/draftable sets though. But is that supposed to imply that WOTC will replace modern masters with these themed/draftable sets?
Yes, the cool reprint sets that helped manage modern prices are being replaced with theme sets that will generally suck.
I kept hearing on podcasts saying how WOTC is choosing to discontinue the modern masters sets. I don't see anything regarding this. I did hear that they were going to do themed/draftable sets though. But is that supposed to imply that WOTC will replace modern masters with these themed/draftable sets?
Yes, the cool reprint sets that helped manage modern prices are being replaced with theme sets that will generally suck.
Pretty much. It wouldn't be so... concerning perhaps if the two flagship products introducing this paradigm weren't so terrible. I dislike draft and learning why Imperial Recruiter is Mythic only cements that dislike. Hint: Recruiter's rarity has nothing to do with a draft environment. As far as themed sets go? Yeah... there's not much to talk about there.
So for all intents and purposes, yes, I would consider the Modern Masters line discontinued.
Yes, the cool reprint sets that helped manage modern prices are being replaced with theme sets that will generally suck.
Pretty much. It wouldn't be so... concerning perhaps if the two flagship products introducing this paradigm weren't so terrible. I dislike draft and learning why Imperial Recruiter is Mythic only cements that dislike.
I am right there with you. They might turn things around (and I thought I recall them saying that they'd still do format-based Masters sets, just not as often), but starting the new series off with by far the two worst Masters sets they've come out with does not exactly give me confidence. Also? If they want to emphasize draft more, they shouldn't sell them for 10 @#$%&!! dollars a pack. I even asked my brother once if he'd ever be interested in drafting a Masters set, and he flat-out said that it would be pointless when we could draft a regular set for a third of the price.
In Wizards defense, we can’t say they don’t listen to people demanding reprints of needed and expensive cards for Modern. They do, and the proof of that is the Modern Masters product line.
All they ask of us in return is that we buy a few booster boxes of that product for a couple hundred dollars each.
In Wizards defense, we can’t say they don’t listen to people demanding reprints of needed and expensive cards for Modern. They do, and the proof of that is the Modern Masters product line.
All they ask of us in return is that we buy a few booster boxes of that product for a couple hundred dollars each.
It was that way in the beginning. Maybe even all the way up to 2017. But WotC practically threw it away with their completely warped idea of what, "iconic," actually means and what their opinion of what cards should be the most representative of the past 25 years of Magic. I strongly feel that "draft matters" really hurt these sets, especially since many of these cards were never meant to be drafted in the first place. All of this coupled with rarity shifts that have ZERO to do with draft or the set itself and you have a pretty good recipe for a royale mess.
My point? Iconic and M25 do NOT feel like they're worth $10 a pack. IMHO, $6 is just about pushing the limits here.
It's not even about high dollar cards. I don't give a rats fez about pulling Jace. What I give a rats fez about is pulling all the garbage cards from the other 20 or 40 packs. That's why I opted to spend my money on a box of Unstable and a ABUR dual instead. Far more interesting cards to play.
Kind of missed this topic, but part of the reason things have ended up where they are is that Wizards of the Coast has been catering towards whoever is going to throw the most money at them. The trouble is, the ones that are actually throwing the most money at them are singles sellers and drafters at this point, so they literally have no idea what older constructed players actually want in terms of a sealed product. It looks like they know what people want, but when you dig into it the cards they put into masters sets are more like a selection of cards that hit a price threshold. Masters 25 kind of shows how clueless they are to what the source of the value actually is, because even with Mark basically saying they put Imperial Recruiter at mythic for scarcity reasons, they still didn't understand that the price was going to tank to the point that they needed other high value cards to make the box worth the price they were printing. This doesn't just happen with masters sets: Look at the selection of cards picked as masterpieces in the Amonkhet Block and even Kaladesh. There is a huge spread in value between the top tier and the bottom tier cards in their non-masterpiece editions.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There is nothing wrong with non modern masters sets, providing the design them correctly.
They were never truly Modern masters anyway. Including utter garbage from a Modern POV like Doubling Season in in a Modern set made sense because it is an EDH powerhouse and people want the card, but it is unplayable in Modern. Iconic and A25 would have been fine if they included more quality, add in non Modern cards such as swapping Ravages of War for 'geddon, add in Wasteland, Strip Mine, Force, Stoneforge over Trees and other similar stuff and either set looks better. It is not the theme that is the issue but the awful execution.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Yes, the cool reprint sets that helped manage modern prices are being replaced with theme sets that will generally suck.
And rightly so. The main target group was never satisfied with the sets anyway, and in my opinion, never would be, so its just logical to stop catering for them and go for the other possible targets.
And no, just giving the people what they want it it means risking your buisiness model is not the right choice.
WotC's business model is selling unopened product. Giving people what they want DOES that. You're mistaking "WotC's business model" with "the secondary market." Continuing to produce high-quality, high-value sets like the original Modern Masters and the 2017 version would enhance their business model, not disrupt it. These sets that aren't made for Constructed players (too much draft chaff) and aren't really for drafters (too expensive to do often) don't serve much of a purpose at all.
That's not to say that WotC can't do these well. Obviously, they can, but they need to decide what the product is and who it is for. I personally think that they'd be better served to skip the "draft-friendly" bit in favor of making it a solid set full of staple reprints. not even expensive stuff, just low-supply cards and things like lightning bolt that are always welcome reprints.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
These sets that aren't made for Constructed players (too much draft chaff) and aren't really for drafters (too expensive to do often) don't serve much of a purpose at all.
Right?! They're trying to have their cake and eat it and, so far, are simply failing at both.
I personally think that they'd be better served to skip the "draft-friendly" bit in favor of making it a solid set full of staple reprints. not even expensive stuff, just low-supply cards and things like lightning bolt that are always welcome reprints.
I agree, and I'd add that if a set is good, people are more likely to want to draft it whether it's designed for drafting or not. Besides, we already have Conspiracy for draft-centric sets.
WotC's business model is selling unopened product. Giving people what they want DOES that. You're mistaking "WotC's business model" with "the secondary market." Continuing to produce high-quality, high-value sets like the original Modern Masters and the 2017 version would enhance their business model, not disrupt it.
And here i thought their buisiness model was selling unopened prduct again and again. And again. If that premise is wrong, then it might not disrupt their model. If it is right, then giving people all the reprints once, leaving lots of them with no need to buy further might actually disrupt the "again and again" part.
That point only makes sense if new players never enter the modern format. If newer standard players want to enter modern, there's a market for allllll the old staples. Not to mention people who have one modern deck and want to build another. After a couple years, people may want new decks, which means new demand for old cards. This "reprint equity" thing is a solid argument on its own, but it is often taken to the point of absurdity to justify artificial scarcity (which, remember, MaRo explicitly referenced as the reason for Imperial Recruiter's reprint at mythic).
WotC's business model is selling unopened product. Giving people what they want DOES that. You're mistaking "WotC's business model" with "the secondary market." Continuing to produce high-quality, high-value sets like the original Modern Masters and the 2017 version would enhance their business model, not disrupt it.
And here i thought their buisiness model was selling unopened prduct again and again. And again. If that premise is wrong, then it might not disrupt their model. If it is right, then giving people all the reprints once, leaving lots of them with no need to buy further might actually disrupt the "again and again" part.
That's nonsense. It implies that nobody will ever buy anything once they have their Modern deck. There are a lot of people who want to play Modern (and Commander, and Legacy, and Vintage) that just don't have the cards. But if you start being generous with the reprints, they'll get into those formats and while they might have the reprinted cards, there will inevitably be OTHER cards they need. Which get reprinted later, creating a rolling demand for more product as the price barrier comes down.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
WotC's business model is selling unopened product. Giving people what they want DOES that. You're mistaking "WotC's business model" with "the secondary market." Continuing to produce high-quality, high-value sets like the original Modern Masters and the 2017 version would enhance their business model, not disrupt it.
And here i thought their buisiness model was selling unopened prduct again and again. And again. If that premise is wrong, then it might not disrupt their model. If it is right, then giving people all the reprints once, leaving lots of them with no need to buy further might actually disrupt the "again and again" part.
That's nonsense. It implies that nobody will ever buy anything once they have their Modern deck. There are a lot of people who want to play Modern (and Commander, and Legacy, and Vintage) that just don't have the cards. But if you start being generous with the reprints, they'll get into those formats and while they might have the reprinted cards, there will inevitably be OTHER cards they need. Which get reprinted later, creating a rolling demand for more product as the price barrier comes down.
This. I realize there's a lot to balance between players, collectors, and investors. I don't want any of them to be outright screwed, but the state of modern masters (that is to say, its termination) is swinging the pendulum to far in favor of the latter. If you drop $2k to buy jund, you're a fool for thinking reprints should be handled in a way that lets you sell your jund deck in a couple years for a profit or even an equal amount as the purchase. The difference between retaining SOME value, retaining ALL value, and GAINING value are huge.
No such thing as a zero risk investment, so I'm amazed some individuals want WOTC to somehow guarantee their collection/inventory values at the expense of the players.
Most don't want to be protected to that level in Modern. Legacy perhaps or Vintage, yes.
I want reprints, I own 15 complete zero crossover Modern decks and even more Legacy decks, the vast majority of which are loan decks for the benefit of my local community. The latter are pretty solid for retaining price. City of Traitors and Underground Seas will go up. I would not spend money on them if there was a danger they could halve in value. It is not investors, it is established players who will get screwed if they were reprinted, players who currently spend a year to finish a Legacy deck. I don't see why some kid should come along and buy Grixis Delver for 20 dollars because they want to play Legacy, and most are not stupid enough to think that situation would be healthy for the game. But I want Modern reprints to make Modern cheaper, because at the moment the price of staples is way too much for the health of the many players. The staples need to be more expensive than standard-only cards, sure, but 100 dollar Lilly or Snappy ends up upsetting those with when the inevitable reprints come and those without, and hurts everyone sooner or later. Even f they maintain that value after reprints then everyone gets upset because most people with four Snappys would rather like four more, there are no investors sitting on this type of card who will be hurt.
When I get offered Black Lotus and Moxen at 50 dollar reprint level the game is dead, but at the other end of the argument Modern's cost is still too much. A maximum if a 2x multiplier on the cost of Standard's top decks should be the aim, and if they miss by a couple if hundred dollars that is not the end if the world. 1500 to 2000 dollar Jund decks is ludicrous.....
Yes, the cool reprint sets that helped manage modern prices are being replaced with theme sets that will generally suck.
Pretty much. It wouldn't be so... concerning perhaps if the two flagship products introducing this paradigm weren't so terrible. I dislike draft and learning why Imperial Recruiter is Mythic only cements that dislike. Hint: Recruiter's rarity has nothing to do with a draft environment. As far as themed sets go? Yeah... there's not much to talk about there.
So for all intents and purposes, yes, I would consider the Modern Masters line discontinued.
I am right there with you. They might turn things around (and I thought I recall them saying that they'd still do format-based Masters sets, just not as often), but starting the new series off with by far the two worst Masters sets they've come out with does not exactly give me confidence. Also? If they want to emphasize draft more, they shouldn't sell them for 10 @#$%&!! dollars a pack. I even asked my brother once if he'd ever be interested in drafting a Masters set, and he flat-out said that it would be pointless when we could draft a regular set for a third of the price.
All they ask of us in return is that we buy a few booster boxes of that product for a couple hundred dollars each.
It was that way in the beginning. Maybe even all the way up to 2017. But WotC practically threw it away with their completely warped idea of what, "iconic," actually means and what their opinion of what cards should be the most representative of the past 25 years of Magic. I strongly feel that "draft matters" really hurt these sets, especially since many of these cards were never meant to be drafted in the first place. All of this coupled with rarity shifts that have ZERO to do with draft or the set itself and you have a pretty good recipe for a royale mess.
My point? Iconic and M25 do NOT feel like they're worth $10 a pack. IMHO, $6 is just about pushing the limits here.
It's not even about high dollar cards. I don't give a rats fez about pulling Jace. What I give a rats fez about is pulling all the garbage cards from the other 20 or 40 packs. That's why I opted to spend my money on a box of Unstable and a ABUR dual instead. Far more interesting cards to play.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They were never truly Modern masters anyway. Including utter garbage from a Modern POV like Doubling Season in in a Modern set made sense because it is an EDH powerhouse and people want the card, but it is unplayable in Modern. Iconic and A25 would have been fine if they included more quality, add in non Modern cards such as swapping Ravages of War for 'geddon, add in Wasteland, Strip Mine, Force, Stoneforge over Trees and other similar stuff and either set looks better. It is not the theme that is the issue but the awful execution.
WotC's business model is selling unopened product. Giving people what they want DOES that. You're mistaking "WotC's business model" with "the secondary market." Continuing to produce high-quality, high-value sets like the original Modern Masters and the 2017 version would enhance their business model, not disrupt it. These sets that aren't made for Constructed players (too much draft chaff) and aren't really for drafters (too expensive to do often) don't serve much of a purpose at all.
That's not to say that WotC can't do these well. Obviously, they can, but they need to decide what the product is and who it is for. I personally think that they'd be better served to skip the "draft-friendly" bit in favor of making it a solid set full of staple reprints. not even expensive stuff, just low-supply cards and things like lightning bolt that are always welcome reprints.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Right?! They're trying to have their cake and eat it and, so far, are simply failing at both.
I agree, and I'd add that if a set is good, people are more likely to want to draft it whether it's designed for drafting or not. Besides, we already have Conspiracy for draft-centric sets.
Not giving people the reprints they need, means products aren't even sold 'once', let alone ‘again’ and ‘again and again’.
That point only makes sense if new players never enter the modern format. If newer standard players want to enter modern, there's a market for allllll the old staples. Not to mention people who have one modern deck and want to build another. After a couple years, people may want new decks, which means new demand for old cards. This "reprint equity" thing is a solid argument on its own, but it is often taken to the point of absurdity to justify artificial scarcity (which, remember, MaRo explicitly referenced as the reason for Imperial Recruiter's reprint at mythic).
That's nonsense. It implies that nobody will ever buy anything once they have their Modern deck. There are a lot of people who want to play Modern (and Commander, and Legacy, and Vintage) that just don't have the cards. But if you start being generous with the reprints, they'll get into those formats and while they might have the reprinted cards, there will inevitably be OTHER cards they need. Which get reprinted later, creating a rolling demand for more product as the price barrier comes down.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
This. I realize there's a lot to balance between players, collectors, and investors. I don't want any of them to be outright screwed, but the state of modern masters (that is to say, its termination) is swinging the pendulum to far in favor of the latter. If you drop $2k to buy jund, you're a fool for thinking reprints should be handled in a way that lets you sell your jund deck in a couple years for a profit or even an equal amount as the purchase. The difference between retaining SOME value, retaining ALL value, and GAINING value are huge.
No such thing as a zero risk investment, so I'm amazed some individuals want WOTC to somehow guarantee their collection/inventory values at the expense of the players.
I want reprints, I own 15 complete zero crossover Modern decks and even more Legacy decks, the vast majority of which are loan decks for the benefit of my local community. The latter are pretty solid for retaining price. City of Traitors and Underground Seas will go up. I would not spend money on them if there was a danger they could halve in value. It is not investors, it is established players who will get screwed if they were reprinted, players who currently spend a year to finish a Legacy deck. I don't see why some kid should come along and buy Grixis Delver for 20 dollars because they want to play Legacy, and most are not stupid enough to think that situation would be healthy for the game. But I want Modern reprints to make Modern cheaper, because at the moment the price of staples is way too much for the health of the many players. The staples need to be more expensive than standard-only cards, sure, but 100 dollar Lilly or Snappy ends up upsetting those with when the inevitable reprints come and those without, and hurts everyone sooner or later. Even f they maintain that value after reprints then everyone gets upset because most people with four Snappys would rather like four more, there are no investors sitting on this type of card who will be hurt.
When I get offered Black Lotus and Moxen at 50 dollar reprint level the game is dead, but at the other end of the argument Modern's cost is still too much. A maximum if a 2x multiplier on the cost of Standard's top decks should be the aim, and if they miss by a couple if hundred dollars that is not the end if the world. 1500 to 2000 dollar Jund decks is ludicrous.....