Well, now that this has spread to outside the mtg community this could pose a problem on wizards PR front. It's not the worst thing wotc has had to deal with, but it's going to hurt player retention and definitely hurt the growth of the game.
The problem is the lack of experience and guidance on how the effected parties should have handled this. In addition, people like mtglion are making their lack of worldliness known in spades.
I highly doubt it most people dont have a twitter believe it or not.
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
Warning - Spamming, Trolling, Flaming, basically the entire book, like what? - Wildfire393
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
I'm not sure what to make of this post. I agree with the "leave politics out of this" bits at least.
For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
I read it, and honestly have to ask, what planet do you live on, because it isn’t earth. Seriously, you’re a mod for this site? Pushing such an agenda? What’s hilarious is you put the majority in a catch 22. I don’t want to read about such things on a forum for playing cards, regardless of whether or not it’s an actual problem in the community for said cards(I’m not saying it’s not, but it is absolutely not as bad as you claim it is to be), but if I ignore it and it’s message, I’m part of the problem, or, if I disagree, I’m part of the problem. So that leaves me the only choice of agreeing and joining your crusade, no?
I read it and didn't find it outlandish at all. The debate isn't about "tolerance vs. intolerance." It's about "bigots vs. those who don't want such bullying and harassment to happen." Saying that "DERP! INTOLERANCE OF BIGOTS IS HYPOCRISY" betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what the issues are truly about. Being intolerant of attitudes that are fundamentally harmful to society isn't itself a harmful attitude, and it isn't part of some insidious political agenda.
In other words, being a bigot or a bully isn't some viewpoint or lifestyle that deserves protection in society. If someone gets bad feelings from being called out on it, that's his/her problem, and no one else's.
Also, no once forces you to read the editorial on this site. You are always free to live in an echo chamber of your own viewpoints. Arguing that you shouldn't even risk being made aware of such viewpoints is patently unreasonable.
This isn’t a case where you fight fire with fire, is all you will end up doing is burning everybody involved. That’s not even a rational thought to begin with, yet you ask for the community as a whole to take that approach. Yikes.
Look at it this way. I don’t agree with this Jeremy’s characters actions, not one bit(I’d consider this extreme behavior), but I am further against what you are promoting(which is extremist behavior-comply or die mentality). I find people like you more frightening than a-holes like Jeremy. Where does it end?
Speaking of, I read through the comments there. While I’m not entirely familiar with the difference between there and here, how is it that some of those comments are just “mod notes-flaming”? Flaming is how harrasment starts. This discussion has just devolved into hypocrisy in its truest form.
Again, arguing that being intolerant of intolerance is hypocrisy is based on a false equivalency. Namely, that bigotry and intolerance of bigotry are somehow comparable.
Look at it this way. Suppose a bunch of pedophiles got together and started complaining that society is being intolerant of them because they like performing sexual acts with young children, and that it was a great injustice that they were being discriminated against as a group because of their viewpoints. After all, society has espoused a "comply or die mentality" when it comes to pedophilia for decades now, so it's no wonder that pedophiles would feel under siege.
Of course, the vast majority of people would feel no sympathy for them because society near-universally considers pedophilia to be wrong, and wrong in general terms because the act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
In much the same way (though likely not to the same degree) is bigotry and bullying wrong. The act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
The truth is that society routinely asserts "comply or die mentalities" on a variety of issues: murder, rape, theft, assault, etc. Western society is founded on "comply or die mentalities." Most people choose to comply because they can understand what is wrong with these acts (either because their own internal moral compass tells them so, or because they have been socialized into believing as much). Or they comply because of the threat of punishment under the criminal justice system.
The problem with bigotry and bullying is that it is a more amorphous concept than rape or murder, and people often falsely believe bigotry and intolerance to be legitimate political and social viewpoints. So while many expressions of bigotry are illegal in some form, many are not, or many are so difficult to prosecute that the responsible state actor doesn't even bother.
TL;DR
People don't have the right to believe in bigotry or intolerance and expect that viewpoint to be socially acceptable. It's intrinsically harmful to society, and should be treated as such.
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
I'm not sure what to make of this post. I agree with the "leave politics out of this" bits at least.
It's reprehensible to me that Christine Sprankle is being used here as a means to integrate politics with card games. The fact she's seen as a pawn rather than the victim we were originally convinced she was just goes to show the amount of integrity the leaders of this discussion actually have. But by all means, let's devolve this one-sided lecture further. Not even calling it a debate.
I fail to understand how anyone can identify with such unpleasant individuals at all, but I suppose that has everything to do with the current sociopolitical climate. What makes these masculine, hyper-aggressive messages appealing, whether in politics or in magic?
I'm not sure this is the right place to be discussing it. There is absolutely a correlation between the sociopolitical climate (Nazis Et. Al.) and this kind of reprehensible behavior, but the focus needs to be more clearly on the individual case and less on the repugnant politics that have spawned the situation. The article itself is hamfisted and doesn't reach the intended audience very well, as it does essentially attack the sensibilities of the so-called "Pro-Jeremy" individuals. I'm certainly not one of them, but you won't be convincing anyone whose primary choice of words are pulled from the distressing amalgamation of 4CHAN and Fox News.
The problem, of course, is that I don't know that a middle ground exists here anymore. People supporting sexist rhetoric and harassment can't be viewed well by one side (typically moving the bar further and further bag on what even qualifies for these buzzwords, see: Roy Moore, to say nothing of many people's opinion of the president), while the other side feels (however facetiously)that we're somehow weakening ourselves by trying to be mindful of these social issues. It's all mind boggling and it's a shame that it has somehow become mainstream to our community.
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
It was a bit of a stretch to bring outside politics into the conversation, but holy crap talk about defensive. You'd almost think your man had a terrible approval rating or something. The existence of scumbags on all sides doesn't make your scumbags better. Also, no one cares about Hilary. Seriously. If she were president maybe someone would care. No one kept talking smack about Romney after he lost. No one talked about him at all, really. I don't care if she murdered children, she's not the president. She's just some private citizen. If she broke the law then lock her up, otherwise don't. I don't care and nor does anyone else.
Anyway, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, there are scumbags everywhere. This is about magic, can we focus on that smaller sphere on influence?
My biggest problem with the article (and the bulk of the reception to this whole thing) is saying that any request for evidence is trolling or promoting harassment. I have literally never heard of these people prior to this incident, and I'm sure the same is true for many people. And I've been a very active magic player for over 15 years. A lot of the stuff seems to be deleted too (does anyone actually have a link to the original video? Still haven't seen that). Maybe there are some people who are just trolling or whatever, but I think most people are genuinely totally unfamiliar with what's going on. Requesting some kind of information doesn't equal maliciousness. If you don't want people asking for the information, then put it in the OP instead of letting it get buried by other posts. If the information is that most of the evidence has been deleted, then say that, and people can make up their own minds.
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
It was a bit of a stretch to bring outside politics into the conversation, but holy crap talk about defensive. You'd almost think your man had a terrible approval rating or something. The existence of scumbags on all sides doesn't make your scumbags better. Also, no one cares about Hilary. Seriously. If she were president maybe someone would care. No one kept talking smack about Romney after he lost. No one talked about him at all, really. I don't care if she murdered children, she's not the president. She's just some private citizen. If she broke the law then lock her up, otherwise don't. I don't care and nor does anyone else.
Anyway, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, there are scumbags everywhere. This is about magic, can we focus on that smaller sphere on influence?
My biggest problem with the article (and the bulk of the reception to this whole thing) is saying that any request for evidence is trolling or promoting harassment. I have literally never heard of these people prior to this incident, and I'm sure the same is true for many people. And I've been a very active magic player for over 15 years. A lot of the stuff seems to be deleted too (does anyone actually have a link to the original video? Still haven't seen that). Maybe there are some people who are just trolling or whatever, but I think most people are genuinely totally unfamiliar with what's going on. Requesting some kind of information doesn't equal maliciousness. If you don't want people asking for the information, then put it in the OP instead of letting it get buried by other posts. If the information is that most of the evidence has been deleted, then say that, and people can make up their own minds.
I agree, we should focus on the core premise here. My problem is, the mods are going to come in here, issue infarctions to everyone who disagrees with the article, ban me for bringing awareness to its insidious nature, and then graciously supply us with another list of pre-approved opinions we are permitted to share, instead of doing the right thing and taking down that atrocity, and replacing it with an unbiased and agenda-free survey of this issue with all the information and facts necessary to garner our own opinions on the matter, and actually address the root cause of this drama. But instead, we got a politically skewed lecture with undertones about the president. So basically Fake News.
For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
I read it, and honestly have to ask, what planet do you live on, because it isn’t earth. Seriously, you’re a mod for this site? Pushing such an agenda? What’s hilarious is you put the majority in a catch 22. I don’t want to read about such things on a forum for playing cards, regardless of whether or not it’s an actual problem in the community for said cards(I’m not saying it’s not, but it is absolutely not as bad as you claim it is to be), but if I ignore it and it’s message, I’m part of the problem, or, if I disagree, I’m part of the problem. So that leaves me the only choice of agreeing and joining your crusade, no?
I read it and didn't find it outlandish at all. The debate isn't about "tolerance vs. intolerance." It's about "bigots vs. those who don't want such bullying and harassment to happen." Saying that "DERP! INTOLERANCE OF BIGOTS IS HYPOCRISY" betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what the issues are truly about. Being intolerant of attitudes that are fundamentally harmful to society isn't itself a harmful attitude, and it isn't part of some insidious political agenda.
In other words, being a bigot or a bully isn't some viewpoint or lifestyle that deserves protection in society. If someone gets bad feelings from being called out on it, that's his/her problem, and no one else's.
Also, no once forces you to read the editorial on this site. You are always free to live in an echo chamber of your own viewpoints. Arguing that you shouldn't even risk being made aware of such viewpoints is patently unreasonable.
This isn’t a case where you fight fire with fire, is all you will end up doing is burning everybody involved. That’s not even a rational thought to begin with, yet you ask for the community as a whole to take that approach. Yikes.
Look at it this way. I don’t agree with this Jeremy’s characters actions, not one bit(I’d consider this extreme behavior), but I am further against what you are promoting(which is extremist behavior-comply or die mentality). I find people like you more frightening than a-holes like Jeremy. Where does it end?
Speaking of, I read through the comments there. While I’m not entirely familiar with the difference between there and here, how is it that some of those comments are just “mod notes-flaming”? Flaming is how harrasment starts. This discussion has just devolved into hypocrisy in its truest form.
Again, arguing that being intolerant of intolerance is hypocrisy is based on a false equivalency. Namely, that bigotry and intolerance of bigotry are somehow comparable.
Look at it this way. Suppose a bunch of pedophiles got together and started complaining that society is being intolerant of them because they like performing sexual acts with young children, and that it was a great injustice that they were being discriminated against as a group because of their viewpoints. After all, society has espoused a "comply or die mentality" when it comes to pedophilia for decades now, so it's no wonder that pedophiles would feel under siege.
Of course, the vast majority of people would feel no sympathy for them because society near-universally considers pedophilia to be wrong, and wrong in general terms because the act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
In much the same way (though likely not to the same degree) is bigotry and bullying wrong. The act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
The truth is that society routinely asserts "comply or die mentalities" on a variety of issues: murder, rape, theft, assault, etc. Western society is founded on "comply or die mentalities." Most people choose to comply because they can understand what is wrong with these acts (either because their own internal moral compass tells them so, or because they have been socialized into believing as much). Or they comply because of the threat of punishment under the criminal justice system.
The problem with bigotry and bullying is that it is a more amorphous concept than rape or murder, and people often falsely believe bigotry and intolerance to be legitimate political and social viewpoints. So while many expressions of bigotry are illegal in some form, many are not, or many are so difficult to prosecute that the responsible state actor doesn't even bother.
TL;DR
People don't have the right to believe in bigotry or intolerance and expect that viewpoint to be socially acceptable. It's intrinsically harmful to society, and should be treated as such.
It was way to long and I skimmed it. You’re missing the point.
Why is it that we, as a whole, should band together against bigots to eradicate them from the face of the earth, when it is that exact type of thinking that’s makes us want to hate bigots to begin with? Like, duh? Hence the “Fire with Fire” comment.
I’m speaking in very plain terms here, but why should I stoop to their level to stop them from doing something wrong that people already get paid/elected to do? So I should grab the 10 guys at the shop to tell the homo-phobic individual he’s a terrible person and that his views are not welcome here? You know what he’s going to say? Who the hell are you? Then he’s going to tell his buddies about the incident, and it will be spun in such a way that is just a big understanding and then rationalize his actions, all the while the appropriate response to such behavior is to alert the appropriate individuals(store owner, manager, judge and when necessary, the police) and not try and inact vigilante justice. Why? Because it’s their right to refuse his business. It’s their right to remove him from the premises.
Think of it like Yelp. An establishement may get tons of negative reviews about cleanliness, food quality, staff etiquette, etc., but remains open and still generates business. Now, if the health department were to issue similar statements, or just outright shut the establishment down or ownership fire the bad apples, well look at that, problem solved.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
That new, agenda-pushing, judgmental, close-minded, propaganda-buying, soapbox-dwelling article is the real problem, actually. It should be deleted. This is a card game forum. Leave your political garbage out of here. The obvious skew against the right/Trump/conservatives is reprehensible - but I expected no less from a "discussion" where the mods already outlined and enforce what opinions we're allowed to have. Not surprising, from socialist liberals. Which is why I didn't bother with this thread at all outside of complaining about the most recent article. You want to make snide jabs at Trump tapes and riots about white heritage (where the other side threw the first punches)? Let's go ahead and address Hillary's fraud, Benghazi, USA's Uranium, Whitewater, and just what was on those iPads before hammers got involved. Let's chat a bit about Pochahontas and her newest reincarnation as Sen. Elizabeth Warren who plagiarized a French chef's recipe and published it as her own. So she's French Cherokee, got it. Let's talk Bill Clinton's lovely escapades or his impeachment and the gender of the intern involved. Or how Hillary attacked his female victims as his lawyer. You see? Where does it end, then? And at what point is the focus on Christine Sprakle and Jeremy? Don't bother trying to bring morality to politics. The Left isn't any better about women. If anything, possibly worse. Mono-White villain mentality at its finest there folks - at least the Right is honest about its stances.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
Warning - Spamming, Trolling, Flaming, basically the entire book, like what? - Wildfire393
Listen Im on your side, but the truth of the matter is this aint US, Austrian or German elections. That mentality isnt going to work, nor should it be something to want.
This guy isnt winning anything all he has done is made it harder for people who might have a problem with things who are in the position to speak up less likely to do so because they dont want to lose their livelihood.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
The problem, of course, is that I don't know that a middle ground exists here anymore. People supporting sexist rhetoric and harassment can't be viewed well by one side (typically moving the bar further and further bag on what even qualifies for these buzzwords, see: Roy Moore, to say nothing of many people's opinion of the president), while the other side feels (however facetiously)that we're somehow weakening ourselves by trying to be mindful of these social issues. It's all mind boggling and it's a shame that it has somehow become mainstream to our community.
I think it's a bit inaccurate to say that anyone on "the other side" supports Jeremy and thinks sexism is great or whatever. I think most people on the other side (of this particular argument) are mostly looking for better evidence of wrongdoing, because most of it is deleted and difficult to find (plus most of the iceberg is likely the anonymous trolls that follow him, not Jeremy himself - not that this entirely excuses him for siccing them on her or others). I think the vast majority of "defenders" on this site at least mostly fall into that camp. Hardly anyone is saying that he's entirely innocent here.
This whole black and white mentality is really crippling both sides and it's pretty embarrassing to watch, tbh.
The problem, of course, is that I don't know that a middle ground exists here anymore. People supporting sexist rhetoric and harassment can't be viewed well by one side (typically moving the bar further and further bag on what even qualifies for these buzzwords, see: Roy Moore, to say nothing of many people's opinion of the president), while the other side feels (however facetiously)that we're somehow weakening ourselves by trying to be mindful of these social issues. It's all mind boggling and it's a shame that it has somehow become mainstream to our community.
I think it's a bit inaccurate to say that anyone on "the other side" supports Jeremy and thinks sexism is great or whatever. I think most people on the other side (of this particular argument) are mostly looking for better evidence of wrongdoing, because most of it is deleted and difficult to find (plus most of the iceberg is likely the anonymous trolls that follow him, not Jeremy himself - not that this entirely excuses him for siccing them on her or others). I think the vast majority of "defenders" on this site at least mostly fall into that camp. Hardly anyone is saying that he's entirely innocent here.
This whole black and white mentality is really crippling both sides and it's pretty embarrassing to watch, tbh.
It certainly isn't black and white, though the "other side" I mentioned was just Jermemies staunch supporters, those doing the most damage and those actually who did the majority of the real harassment. (Sprankle can't exactly have legal recourse against the mob effect, which is admitedly part of the issue.) The problem is that those seeking "proof" and other such nonsense are pretty actively ignoring what proof exists, or refuse to consider much of his hugely negative language as incitement. The trolls were inargubly emboldened by Jeremy, whether he meant to send them after her or not, some degree of accountability absolutely falls on the inflammatory actions of the man. It's akin to incitement in the literal, legal, meaning, something which the law books don't cover when it's as comparatively subtle (though there is little subtle about him talking about her selling herself or the other sexist, unpleasant words he has bandied about).
As much as I dislike mob justice, people are running a very thin line on defending being an ******** on technical grounds.
Also, I believe that assuming the reports you hear about can be fabricated or false works on the assumption that the victim is playing to be selfish or vindictive, which they aren't always doing.
Its pretty much as black/white as it could possible be.
The actual topic is ridiculous tiny issue and it so overblown like its downright murder.
Its comments, thats all it is.
though the "other side" I mentioned was just Jermemies staunch supporters, those doing the most damage and those actually who did the majority of the real harassment.
Exactly, but you have the very same crazy people on the other side as well, in the same problematic deal, its the same type of comment.
The fact she put his name in her tweet alone is enough to start a lynch mob to write death threat emails.
Is she responsible for that ?
If you say no, then you measure with different standards and that hurts your argument.
The professors video about this topic was inappropriate and again, even if he doesnt want to, it actively started a again a lynch mob to death threat and go on open warfare (on a comment level, god forbidds nobody gets actually physical violence).
This topic is so overblown its downright crazy.
"proof" and other such nonsense are pretty actively ignoring what proof exists, or refuse to consider much of his hugely negative language as incitement.
The so called "proof" are often screenshots or comments taken out of context, and context is key here.
One comment to a private person can be laid out as harassment, while the very same comment to a public person that clearly expresses in a sexual manner wouldnt be ; its context and comments do not exist in a vacuum.
And the fact that nazi comments are made in combination to this discussion is just the tip of the crazyness, this is about comments, this isnt Hitler, stay realistic, for the good of anybody, make sure you keep a discussion at an appropriate level, this is clearly not even worth the attention the topic gets.
The trolls were inargubly emboldened by Jeremy, whether he meant to send them after her or not, some degree of accountability absolutely falls on the inflammatory actions of the man. It's akin to incitement in the literal, legal, meaning, something which the law books don't cover when it's as comparatively subtle (though there is little subtle about him talking about her selling herself or the other sexist, unpleasant words he has bandied about).
This is your very own opinion and you have a very limited view of the topic, as do i, everyone is somehow putting stuff up and search pieces and bits of information and present it as "proof" for whatever message they want to squeeze out of this information.
This all gets down to politics, down to sexismn, down to everything but the topic its actually is.
----
The basic issue is that some mean comments are made.
They are rude, nobody arguing.
They arent totally out of context.
Nobody ever ask anyone to harass anybody and nobody ever wanted any harm for any member of the community in these channels.
Its downright not the case, and who ever thinks theres this big great evil out there posting twitter comments and youtube channel comments, thats downright ridiculous and does in no way tribute to what "real" harassment should be threated.
Theres no arguing that anybody that emails death threats and THAT kind of messages out is downright "sick" , nobody that is sane or has a healthy mind will do that, point , nobody
But these people are everywhere, they watch all kinds of stuff , read all kinds of twitter messages and they just want to please their sadistic pleasures , nobody but them is responsible for that , they can either do that ***** or they do not.
A real adult way to solve these issues would be to seek out discussion and talk with the people like they are adults.
If something bothers you, the first way should be to talk about it, make sure the other knows about it and can recognize it.
If you do not give that chance, and month later just finger point and blame them for a choice you make, thats cheap and its not fair at all.
This drama will continue for the rest of the week, maybe the next too, but it will then just die down and thats all.
So instead of blaming and hitting at each other, people have to see what they are actually talk about and not mix in totally untied topics into it, as thats the way to total chaos and unhealthy and ungrounded hatred, avoid that, seek out a real discussion, and talk like an adult about it.
Also, I believe that assuming the reports you hear about can be fabricated or false works on the assumption that the victim is playing to be selfish or vindictive, which they aren't always doing.
"Cynical" might be the best word to describe that.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
Your use of the word "harmful" to justify your censorship is actually..harmful. I believe the most harmful thing in Magic is to force people to police themselves to suit your emotions. I believe the language of "we can strive to be better" means "we should suppress disagreement and be more like me." I think your worldview is one of censorship, and I also believe that there are many greater ills on the planet than "harmful actions" of Magic players and conservatives. Like socialism, and ISIS.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
Your use of the word "harmful" to justify your censorship is actually..harmful. I believe the most harmful thing in Magic is to force people to police themselves to suit your emotions. I believe the language of "we can strive to be better" means "we should suppress disagreement and be more like me." I think your worldview is one of censorship, and I also believe that there are many greater ills on the planet than "harmful actions" of Magic players and conservatives. Like socialism, and ISIS.
Aren't we supposed to be trying not to bring politics into this discussion?
Also, I believe that assuming the reports you hear about can be fabricated or false works on the assumption that the victim is playing to be selfish or vindictive, which they aren't always doing.
"Cynical" might be the best word to describe that.
Cynical indeed. One consequence of this problem is that our trust in each other is at an all time low, leading people to believe that they can plausibly deny that such events happened.
There are multiple factors that contribute to this. The people who disbelieve the news or contribute to denying them, the people on the left that blow up seemingly nonexistent issues to distract from both the real ones and feed their selfish selves, the people who set up bot accounts with the explicit purpose of feeding false information.
All of this leads to what we have now. Some of us are willing to listen to you, but you must do the same for us first.
As for this man, he's had this reputation for a while now. Let him fade into irrelevance like he deserves.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
Your use of the word "harmful" to justify your censorship is actually..harmful. I believe the most harmful thing in Magic is to force people to police themselves to suit your emotions. I believe the language of "we can strive to be better" means "we should suppress disagreement and be more like me." I think your worldview is one of censorship, and I also believe that there are many greater ills on the planet than "harmful actions" of Magic players and conservatives. Like socialism, and ISIS.
Aren't we supposed to be trying not to bring politics into this discussion?
No, you see, it's only bringing politics in to the discussion when we're talking about things that I don't like and can't easily argue against.
People need to relax and just play magic. The issue with desolatormagic and this Jeremy guy is they don't even PLAY magic. I watch their videos and they just rant about liberals/politics and pretend its an MTG channel.
If you want to grow the game keep the politics out of this and just play. Of course WOTC is going to target the smaller female demo to increase the size of the game. Thats just good business.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
No, apparently both sides were being nasty to each other and both sides "people" were messing with each others online stuff.
And Im sorry but when somebody basically swears at a dude then gets money from other people to do it and then is cheered because hes going to donate it to planned parent hood and anyone who would dare speak out is silenced on the official MTG forum on Reddit is quashed, its apparent that Wizards of the Coast is endorsing one ideological spectrum and seeking to silence the other side.
You know, we're going to end up with fans of people like Unsleeved and Desolator on one side, and Wedge and Professor Hippy Hair on the the other. I can't help but think that Wedge and the Prof, among others, are just making it worse. Now, I don't like Mr. Unsleeved Media guy at all. His content annoys me, whereas I've built MTGO decks showcased by Wedge, and often watch the Prof. for entertainment.
That said, I ALSO don't like Sprankle. If you really want a realistic view on the subject, I suggest Desolator Magic.
Yes, a realistic version of the events starts with a complete character assassination of Sprankle based entirely around assumptions based upon arm-chair philosophisizing about her reasons for cosplaying. Makes wide-standing generalizations about cosplayers and their personalities, and then fully admits to not knowing a damn thing about her yet is willing to accept his own fabrications as the likely reality.
Not only that, but he then creates a fabrication that this situation arose because "1-in-10 comments are mean". That's not what bloody well happened, at all. She received death threats for playing flip it or rip it. He is operating under the assumption that she is being over-dramatic because of generalizations and fabrications he created through limited contact with other people.
I don't care much about cosplay, and I don't know a thing about Sprankle. But Desolator is being utterly asinine with the very premise of this video, and this is hardly a realistic version of events. It is fabricating a version of events that there is no evidence of.
Not only then, he then goes on to say she just blamed Jeremy because he's an easy target; that is hardly the case. Jeremy and her have a long history, and he has ***** on her constantly, the last time by denigrating her appearance and dragging her into his anti-female-Spike rants, unprovoked mind you, earlier this month.
And then he goes on a rant about "dumbass leftist liberals". This is rich coming from a person who accepts his own fabrication as reality after admitting to not knowing anything about the situation, and then utterly misrepresents Jeremy as only off-handedly mentioning her once. He has a hate-on for her, has engaged in this off and on for almost two years, has made it damn well clear he hates her, and has made unprovoked attacks against her on his twitter feed this month. He very clearly has personal beef with her, and this is hardly a case of one comment from a month ago. Is it possible Christine acted the same to him? Perhaps, I don't know. He certainly hasn't provided any reason to think that, while there is plenty to see that he engaged in harassing behavior unprovoked towards on several occasions.
DesolatorMagic is completely out of touch with reality. He has fabricated a fiction that he just assumes has to be true. And then tries to sell it as gospel truth. For someone who says that people don't do their research, I find his completely moronic rant that is so far off base with the reality of how this went down to be the richest thing I have heard. He literally accepts Jeremy's word as gospel, without question, because it fits his narrative.
These sort of armchair, smug, self-aggrandizing philosophers who think they are "so" much more intelligent than us "sheeple" who don't "research" anything, and just go with leftist-mobs are more often than not utterly and laughably wrong. DesolatorMagic's entire arguments centers around a total fabrication what he thinks Christine is like, without ever actually meeting her or showing a single shred of evidence to indicate that is her motivation. Meanwhile, we have plenty of evidence to show that yes, Jeremy is an ass. A massive one, whom goes out of his way to make unprovoked attacks on people because, in his own words, he is an edgelord. I don't need to form an opinion on what Jeremy is like, because he is fully honest about it. He lets you know he is a miserable person. Great, awesome, you told me why I shouldn't give two craps about you and you made your own case against you.
If you want to be an edgelord and make people's lives miserable for the lulz, do not be surprised when your privileges are revoked. Playing Magic is a privilege. Going to tournaments is a privilege. Having a patreon account is a privilege. Having a youtube channel is a privilege. It is not a right. You have the right to be a miserable edgelord, but you do not have a right to enjoy the privileges provided to you by these platforms. They get to set the damn rules, and they get to decide if you broke them.
I highly doubt it most people dont have a twitter believe it or not.
Using Christine Sprankle as a pawn into pushing political agendas in a card game community is an embarrassment. I can see how you might like to justify that given her nature as a Cosplayer, but this is not the place, and your opinions are not the only way to think, despite how hard you're all willing to believe that. Typical internet mind-numbing trash - whites are all racist neo-Nazis, Trump is Hitler, men are wicked and women are all victims. Leave all this trash out of here and address the actual event - Jeremy and Christine - not Trump, not Hillary, not recent political events that no one here even understand - as clearly demonstrated by the article.
In summary, leave Fake News and its labels to CNN and other outlets.
Oh, and for the record, if Locker Room talk from those questionable Trump tapes is really what you consider worth mentioning about the President of the United States of America who has been doing an outstanding job running the world's leading country and staying true to his promises, than I am glad I voted the way I did.
Warning - Spamming, Trolling, Flaming, basically the entire book, like what? - Wildfire393
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm not sure what to make of this post. I agree with the "leave politics out of this" bits at least.
I read it and didn't find it outlandish at all. The debate isn't about "tolerance vs. intolerance." It's about "bigots vs. those who don't want such bullying and harassment to happen." Saying that "DERP! INTOLERANCE OF BIGOTS IS HYPOCRISY" betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what the issues are truly about. Being intolerant of attitudes that are fundamentally harmful to society isn't itself a harmful attitude, and it isn't part of some insidious political agenda.
In other words, being a bigot or a bully isn't some viewpoint or lifestyle that deserves protection in society. If someone gets bad feelings from being called out on it, that's his/her problem, and no one else's.
Also, no once forces you to read the editorial on this site. You are always free to live in an echo chamber of your own viewpoints. Arguing that you shouldn't even risk being made aware of such viewpoints is patently unreasonable.
Again, arguing that being intolerant of intolerance is hypocrisy is based on a false equivalency. Namely, that bigotry and intolerance of bigotry are somehow comparable.
Look at it this way. Suppose a bunch of pedophiles got together and started complaining that society is being intolerant of them because they like performing sexual acts with young children, and that it was a great injustice that they were being discriminated against as a group because of their viewpoints. After all, society has espoused a "comply or die mentality" when it comes to pedophilia for decades now, so it's no wonder that pedophiles would feel under siege.
Of course, the vast majority of people would feel no sympathy for them because society near-universally considers pedophilia to be wrong, and wrong in general terms because the act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
In much the same way (though likely not to the same degree) is bigotry and bullying wrong. The act harms a vulnerable member of society for the sole benefit of the actor.
The truth is that society routinely asserts "comply or die mentalities" on a variety of issues: murder, rape, theft, assault, etc. Western society is founded on "comply or die mentalities." Most people choose to comply because they can understand what is wrong with these acts (either because their own internal moral compass tells them so, or because they have been socialized into believing as much). Or they comply because of the threat of punishment under the criminal justice system.
The problem with bigotry and bullying is that it is a more amorphous concept than rape or murder, and people often falsely believe bigotry and intolerance to be legitimate political and social viewpoints. So while many expressions of bigotry are illegal in some form, many are not, or many are so difficult to prosecute that the responsible state actor doesn't even bother.
TL;DR
People don't have the right to believe in bigotry or intolerance and expect that viewpoint to be socially acceptable. It's intrinsically harmful to society, and should be treated as such.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I'm not sure this is the right place to be discussing it. There is absolutely a correlation between the sociopolitical climate (Nazis Et. Al.) and this kind of reprehensible behavior, but the focus needs to be more clearly on the individual case and less on the repugnant politics that have spawned the situation. The article itself is hamfisted and doesn't reach the intended audience very well, as it does essentially attack the sensibilities of the so-called "Pro-Jeremy" individuals. I'm certainly not one of them, but you won't be convincing anyone whose primary choice of words are pulled from the distressing amalgamation of 4CHAN and Fox News.
The problem, of course, is that I don't know that a middle ground exists here anymore. People supporting sexist rhetoric and harassment can't be viewed well by one side (typically moving the bar further and further bag on what even qualifies for these buzzwords, see: Roy Moore, to say nothing of many people's opinion of the president), while the other side feels (however facetiously)that we're somehow weakening ourselves by trying to be mindful of these social issues. It's all mind boggling and it's a shame that it has somehow become mainstream to our community.
Anyway, none of this is relevant to the topic at hand. Yes, there are scumbags everywhere. This is about magic, can we focus on that smaller sphere on influence?
My biggest problem with the article (and the bulk of the reception to this whole thing) is saying that any request for evidence is trolling or promoting harassment. I have literally never heard of these people prior to this incident, and I'm sure the same is true for many people. And I've been a very active magic player for over 15 years. A lot of the stuff seems to be deleted too (does anyone actually have a link to the original video? Still haven't seen that). Maybe there are some people who are just trolling or whatever, but I think most people are genuinely totally unfamiliar with what's going on. Requesting some kind of information doesn't equal maliciousness. If you don't want people asking for the information, then put it in the OP instead of letting it get buried by other posts. If the information is that most of the evidence has been deleted, then say that, and people can make up their own minds.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
inb4 I get banned for "do as I say, not as a I do"
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Why are you bringing that political crap here? I know i did a small jab at trump before but not to this extend.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
It was way to long and I skimmed it. You’re missing the point.
Why is it that we, as a whole, should band together against bigots to eradicate them from the face of the earth, when it is that exact type of thinking that’s makes us want to hate bigots to begin with? Like, duh? Hence the “Fire with Fire” comment.
I’m speaking in very plain terms here, but why should I stoop to their level to stop them from doing something wrong that people already get paid/elected to do? So I should grab the 10 guys at the shop to tell the homo-phobic individual he’s a terrible person and that his views are not welcome here? You know what he’s going to say? Who the hell are you? Then he’s going to tell his buddies about the incident, and it will be spun in such a way that is just a big understanding and then rationalize his actions, all the while the appropriate response to such behavior is to alert the appropriate individuals(store owner, manager, judge and when necessary, the police) and not try and inact vigilante justice. Why? Because it’s their right to refuse his business. It’s their right to remove him from the premises.
Think of it like Yelp. An establishement may get tons of negative reviews about cleanliness, food quality, staff etiquette, etc., but remains open and still generates business. Now, if the health department were to issue similar statements, or just outright shut the establishment down or ownership fire the bad apples, well look at that, problem solved.
You can hate somebody for their views/speech/actions, but you CANNOT act on that hate in a vigilante matter. There are proper avenues to follow, and when you choose not to and act on those impulses, you are no different than the person you are acting out against.
Ultimately, this is not a matter the public needs to be involved in or needs to solve.
Listen Im on your side, but the truth of the matter is this aint US, Austrian or German elections. That mentality isnt going to work, nor should it be something to want.
This guy isnt winning anything all he has done is made it harder for people who might have a problem with things who are in the position to speak up less likely to do so because they dont want to lose their livelihood.
The problem here is that the "opposing" side is already very active in their harmful behavior. At a certain point inaction becomes unacceptable, allowing hugely negative groups and individuals (see: Jeremy) to have a truly untoward effect on how our subculture is perceived. To the outside we're already a masculine dominated, often-aggressive, and socially awkward bundle of "nerds." Adding this kind of hateful behavior to what we're known for isn't something that the community should allow, nonsensical hyperbole examples entirely aside.
This whole black and white mentality is really crippling both sides and it's pretty embarrassing to watch, tbh.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
It certainly isn't black and white, though the "other side" I mentioned was just Jermemies staunch supporters, those doing the most damage and those actually who did the majority of the real harassment. (Sprankle can't exactly have legal recourse against the mob effect, which is admitedly part of the issue.) The problem is that those seeking "proof" and other such nonsense are pretty actively ignoring what proof exists, or refuse to consider much of his hugely negative language as incitement. The trolls were inargubly emboldened by Jeremy, whether he meant to send them after her or not, some degree of accountability absolutely falls on the inflammatory actions of the man. It's akin to incitement in the literal, legal, meaning, something which the law books don't cover when it's as comparatively subtle (though there is little subtle about him talking about her selling herself or the other sexist, unpleasant words he has bandied about).
Also, I believe that assuming the reports you hear about can be fabricated or false works on the assumption that the victim is playing to be selfish or vindictive, which they aren't always doing.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Its pretty much as black/white as it could possible be.
The actual topic is ridiculous tiny issue and it so overblown like its downright murder.
Its comments, thats all it is.
Exactly, but you have the very same crazy people on the other side as well, in the same problematic deal, its the same type of comment.
The fact she put his name in her tweet alone is enough to start a lynch mob to write death threat emails.
Is she responsible for that ?
If you say no, then you measure with different standards and that hurts your argument.
The professors video about this topic was inappropriate and again, even if he doesnt want to, it actively started a again a lynch mob to death threat and go on open warfare (on a comment level, god forbidds nobody gets actually physical violence).
This topic is so overblown its downright crazy.
The so called "proof" are often screenshots or comments taken out of context, and context is key here.
One comment to a private person can be laid out as harassment, while the very same comment to a public person that clearly expresses in a sexual manner wouldnt be ; its context and comments do not exist in a vacuum.
And the fact that nazi comments are made in combination to this discussion is just the tip of the crazyness, this is about comments, this isnt Hitler, stay realistic, for the good of anybody, make sure you keep a discussion at an appropriate level, this is clearly not even worth the attention the topic gets.
This is your very own opinion and you have a very limited view of the topic, as do i, everyone is somehow putting stuff up and search pieces and bits of information and present it as "proof" for whatever message they want to squeeze out of this information.
This all gets down to politics, down to sexismn, down to everything but the topic its actually is.
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The basic issue is that some mean comments are made.
They are rude, nobody arguing.
They arent totally out of context.
Nobody ever ask anyone to harass anybody and nobody ever wanted any harm for any member of the community in these channels.
Its downright not the case, and who ever thinks theres this big great evil out there posting twitter comments and youtube channel comments, thats downright ridiculous and does in no way tribute to what "real" harassment should be threated.
Theres no arguing that anybody that emails death threats and THAT kind of messages out is downright "sick" , nobody that is sane or has a healthy mind will do that, point , nobody
But these people are everywhere, they watch all kinds of stuff , read all kinds of twitter messages and they just want to please their sadistic pleasures , nobody but them is responsible for that , they can either do that ***** or they do not.
A real adult way to solve these issues would be to seek out discussion and talk with the people like they are adults.
If something bothers you, the first way should be to talk about it, make sure the other knows about it and can recognize it.
If you do not give that chance, and month later just finger point and blame them for a choice you make, thats cheap and its not fair at all.
This drama will continue for the rest of the week, maybe the next too, but it will then just die down and thats all.
So instead of blaming and hitting at each other, people have to see what they are actually talk about and not mix in totally untied topics into it, as thats the way to total chaos and unhealthy and ungrounded hatred, avoid that, seek out a real discussion, and talk like an adult about it.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
"Cynical" might be the best word to describe that.
Your use of the word "harmful" to justify your censorship is actually..harmful. I believe the most harmful thing in Magic is to force people to police themselves to suit your emotions. I believe the language of "we can strive to be better" means "we should suppress disagreement and be more like me." I think your worldview is one of censorship, and I also believe that there are many greater ills on the planet than "harmful actions" of Magic players and conservatives. Like socialism, and ISIS.
Aren't we supposed to be trying not to bring politics into this discussion?
Cynical indeed. One consequence of this problem is that our trust in each other is at an all time low, leading people to believe that they can plausibly deny that such events happened.
There are multiple factors that contribute to this. The people who disbelieve the news or contribute to denying them, the people on the left that blow up seemingly nonexistent issues to distract from both the real ones and feed their selfish selves, the people who set up bot accounts with the explicit purpose of feeding false information.
All of this leads to what we have now. Some of us are willing to listen to you, but you must do the same for us first.
As for this man, he's had this reputation for a while now. Let him fade into irrelevance like he deserves.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
No, you see, it's only bringing politics in to the discussion when we're talking about things that I don't like and can't easily argue against.
If you want to grow the game keep the politics out of this and just play. Of course WOTC is going to target the smaller female demo to increase the size of the game. Thats just good business.
No, apparently both sides were being nasty to each other and both sides "people" were messing with each others online stuff.
And Im sorry but when somebody basically swears at a dude then gets money from other people to do it and then is cheered because hes going to donate it to planned parent hood and anyone who would dare speak out is silenced on the official MTG forum on Reddit is quashed, its apparent that Wizards of the Coast is endorsing one ideological spectrum and seeking to silence the other side.
Yes, a realistic version of the events starts with a complete character assassination of Sprankle based entirely around assumptions based upon arm-chair philosophisizing about her reasons for cosplaying. Makes wide-standing generalizations about cosplayers and their personalities, and then fully admits to not knowing a damn thing about her yet is willing to accept his own fabrications as the likely reality.
Not only that, but he then creates a fabrication that this situation arose because "1-in-10 comments are mean". That's not what bloody well happened, at all. She received death threats for playing flip it or rip it. He is operating under the assumption that she is being over-dramatic because of generalizations and fabrications he created through limited contact with other people.
I don't care much about cosplay, and I don't know a thing about Sprankle. But Desolator is being utterly asinine with the very premise of this video, and this is hardly a realistic version of events. It is fabricating a version of events that there is no evidence of.
Not only then, he then goes on to say she just blamed Jeremy because he's an easy target; that is hardly the case. Jeremy and her have a long history, and he has ***** on her constantly, the last time by denigrating her appearance and dragging her into his anti-female-Spike rants, unprovoked mind you, earlier this month.
And then he goes on a rant about "dumbass leftist liberals". This is rich coming from a person who accepts his own fabrication as reality after admitting to not knowing anything about the situation, and then utterly misrepresents Jeremy as only off-handedly mentioning her once. He has a hate-on for her, has engaged in this off and on for almost two years, has made it damn well clear he hates her, and has made unprovoked attacks against her on his twitter feed this month. He very clearly has personal beef with her, and this is hardly a case of one comment from a month ago. Is it possible Christine acted the same to him? Perhaps, I don't know. He certainly hasn't provided any reason to think that, while there is plenty to see that he engaged in harassing behavior unprovoked towards on several occasions.
DesolatorMagic is completely out of touch with reality. He has fabricated a fiction that he just assumes has to be true. And then tries to sell it as gospel truth. For someone who says that people don't do their research, I find his completely moronic rant that is so far off base with the reality of how this went down to be the richest thing I have heard. He literally accepts Jeremy's word as gospel, without question, because it fits his narrative.
These sort of armchair, smug, self-aggrandizing philosophers who think they are "so" much more intelligent than us "sheeple" who don't "research" anything, and just go with leftist-mobs are more often than not utterly and laughably wrong. DesolatorMagic's entire arguments centers around a total fabrication what he thinks Christine is like, without ever actually meeting her or showing a single shred of evidence to indicate that is her motivation. Meanwhile, we have plenty of evidence to show that yes, Jeremy is an ass. A massive one, whom goes out of his way to make unprovoked attacks on people because, in his own words, he is an edgelord. I don't need to form an opinion on what Jeremy is like, because he is fully honest about it. He lets you know he is a miserable person. Great, awesome, you told me why I shouldn't give two craps about you and you made your own case against you.
If you want to be an edgelord and make people's lives miserable for the lulz, do not be surprised when your privileges are revoked. Playing Magic is a privilege. Going to tournaments is a privilege. Having a patreon account is a privilege. Having a youtube channel is a privilege. It is not a right. You have the right to be a miserable edgelord, but you do not have a right to enjoy the privileges provided to you by these platforms. They get to set the damn rules, and they get to decide if you broke them.