Not really much to add to the discussion. Any form of harassment and bullying is horrendous and should be dealt with by the proper people, be they WotC, YouTube, and/or the authorities.
Also, not entirely unrelated. Jeremy is in violation of YouTube's community policy regarding hate speech as outlined here and he can be banned from the site because of it. He may be able to delete the videos so they can't be seen, but google saves everything.
I looked at the reporting options and it seems to be focused on comments instead of reporting video content. It does infer video content, but how exactly do we report it?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If the gender roles were reversed, none of this would be happening.
Impossible to say. Also, utterly meaningless to bring up in this conversation.
Not really. At least not in a world where women want equal rights as men but not equal wrongs. I'm not condoning Jeremy's behavior. I think he's in the wrong here, regardless of the genders of those involved. But, this situation, conversation, etc wouldn't be happening if even just the victim was a man (regardless of the offender's gender). Especially if he were a white hetero conservative, Christian, creationist, capitalist, American republican male. If that were the case, leftists would be justifying Jeremy's behavior, especially if he was an albino negro Islamic transgender hermaphroditic illegal alien on welfare. The hypocrisy inherent to leftist thought has coalesced in this thread as a sickening "mod mentality". Not to say that I'm sickened by their stance against the likes of Jeremy (I too stand against such people), but as to WHY they hold that stance. 1984
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Polygon did a story on the situation that helps shed some light on this entire affair.
Quote from Jeremy »
She falsely equated it to unproven claims of "harassment" by me because of a salty video I did over 6 months ago. Since then I have been ... called sexist, and much worse.
Unproven? The only things you need to see to prove his harassment is Prof's video.
And has been called sexist? That rape tweet that has been posted in this forum is enough to prove that.
Not really. At least not in a world where women want equal rights as men but not equal wrongs. I'm not condoning Jeremy's behavior. I think he's in the wrong here, regardless of the genders of those involved. But, this situation, conversation, etc wouldn't be happening if even just the victim was a man (regardless of the offender's gender). Especially if he were a white hetero conservative, Christian, creationist, capitalist, American republican male. If that were the case, leftists would be justifying Jeremy's behavior, especially if he was an albino negro Islamic transgender hermaphroditic illegal alien on welfare. The hypocrisy inherent to leftist thought has coalesced in this thread as a sickening "mod mentality". Not to say that I'm sickened by their stance against the likes of Jeremy (I too stand against such people), but as to WHY they hold that stance. 1984
My partner always tells me that if you say something and follow it by 'but', you don't 100% mean the things you just said.
Your argument here says that people wouldn't react in the same way if the victim was different. Do you really think this statement was necessary? Do you feel that saying, "yeah this person was harassed, but these other people..." is in any way constructive? You move the attention away from the people being harassed/abused/whatever on to this random, made up group of people (or several in your case), and make the situation about them, and not the people actually being harassed.
Next time, if you agree with the victim, don't distract from their plight. Join them. Help them. And once society shifts into a place where that group of people are not being targeted, you can bring up the next group.
Your argument here says that people wouldn't react in the same way if the victim was different. Do you really think this statement was necessary? Do you feel that saying, "yeah this person was harassed, but these other people..." is in any way constructive? You move the attention away from the people being harassed/abused/whatever on to this random, made up group of people (or several in your case), and make the situation about them, and not the people actually being harassed.
Next time, if you agree with the victim, don't distract from their plight. Join them. Help them. And once society shifts into a place where that group of people are not being targeted, you can bring up the next group.
Imo the most constructive argument to have on this topic is to carefully consider how we handle online harassment, which does mean considering related scenarios and our response as a whole, and not just to focus on this single case.
No offense to Sprankle, but this single event is only significant in how it shines light on a larger issue within the community. At this point there's not much that can even really be done for her specifically anyway. More important is to consider how we handle future harassment, and being unbiased towards gender is an important part of that. Looking at either end of the spectrum can help make sure we're responding fairly. If you wouldn't feel compelled to defend some other person, who might be a different (gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, political opinion, etc) from the same situation, then you may need to re-calibrate your metrics for what constitutes harassment and when you (or someone else) should get involved.
Personally I'm not sure how it would have gone down if the roles had been reversed. It may still have been the same outrage. Or maybe not. But if we aren't analyzing our response and making sure we're fair, then there could be other cases of harassment that never get noticed because they never raise the same public outcry, and we never think about them. I don't like this idea that we can only think about one group of people at a time. When someone's being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what group they belong to.
For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
Imo the most constructive argument to have on this topic is to carefully consider how we handle online harassment, which does mean considering related scenarios and our response as a whole, and not just to focus on this single case.
No offense to Sprankle, but this single event is only significant in how it shines light on a larger issue within the community. At this point there's not much that can even really be done for her specifically anyway. More important is to consider how we handle future harassment, and being unbiased towards gender is an important part of that. Looking at either end of the spectrum can help make sure we're responding fairly. If you wouldn't feel compelled to defend some other person, who might be a different (gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, political opinion, etc) from the same situation, then you may need to re-calibrate your metrics for what constitutes harassment and when you (or someone else) should get involved.
Personally I'm not sure how it would have gone down if the roles had been reversed. It may still have been the same outrage. Or maybe not. But if we aren't analyzing our response and making sure we're fair, then there could be other cases of harassment that never get noticed because they never raise the same public outcry, and we never think about them. I don't like this idea that we can only think about one group of people at a time. When someone's being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what group they belong to.
I agree. I also feel that by doubling down on Jeremy, by removing his social media presence, his Patreon account, his Youtube channels, and destroying his reputation all because of this abuse (and I'm not just talking about Christine, but everyone who can supply evidence of his harassment), will set a precedent that can be used in the future for others to lean on when facing similar problems.
Also, by making an example of Jeremy, we, as a community, can go a long way to showing those who are outside our bubble that we do not appreciate this kind of behaviour in our shops, homes, pro tours, GPs, etc. and will not stand for it.
Edit: That's a good read, Teia. I hope that the call for introspection doesn't fall on deaf ears though.
I agree. I also feel that by doubling down on Jeremy, by removing his social media presence, his Patreon account, his Youtube channels, and destroying his reputation all because of this abuse (and I'm not just talking about Christine, but everyone who can supply evidence of his harassment), will set a precedent that can be used in the future for others to lean on when facing similar problems.
Also, by making an example of Jeremy, we, as a community, can go a long way to showing those who are outside our bubble that we do not appreciate this kind of behaviour in our shops, homes, pro tours, GPs, etc. and will not stand for it.
Edit: That's a good read, Teia. I hope that the call for introspection doesn't fall on deaf ears though.
For me this is exactly whats so wrong about even considering this to be any form of "solution".
Its lynch mob thinking.
You just want blood and you want to burn someone for a topic that neither deserves this form of punishment or even such an reaction at all.
Its a topic that could and should be solved without the giant fuzz of the public and without any major casualties.
And to do that you need a neutral judge , and neither person is neutral in this topic, especially as it becomes such a topic that doesnt even allow a neutral perspective, if its so extreme and takes much harsher topics into the mix, just to further bolster sides and make any actively productive discussion downright impossible.
----
Nothing Jeremy did justifies any over the top reaction. Critic yes, its even totally fine to blame his behavior, and it should be discussed as what it is, do not make this person responsible for ANY problem just to have someone to blame and put all the blame on.
By doing so you simply push a topic and hurt the community more, as it will further split people apart and make the problem just deeper and persistent.
Every time comments and arguments go further and become more harsh, at some point people have to say so and find a balance again.
----
If there is an form of greater issue, especially in your local environment, it should be dealt with.
But putting all the blame and shame on Jeremy alone, is an entire problem of its (thats just wrong).
The truly harmful individuals arent so easily taken out of responsibility, anybody that sends death threat emails is a real issue on its own and cannot simply put the blame on Jeremy (adults should be responsible enough to see they have to think what they are doing and not mindlessly rampage and insult people around them).
Make sure you arent just becoming part of a lynch mob. If justice should be truly done, it needs to have a proper call from a neutral party, it cannot be a fair solution to burn on side to the ground and just ignore them.
I agree. I also feel that by doubling down on Jeremy, by removing his social media presence, his Patreon account, his Youtube channels, and destroying his reputation all because of this abuse (and I'm not just talking about Christine, but everyone who can supply evidence of his harassment), will set a precedent that can be used in the future for others to lean on when facing similar problems.
Also, by making an example of Jeremy, we, as a community, can go a long way to showing those who are outside our bubble that we do not appreciate this kind of behaviour in our shops, homes, pro tours, GPs, etc. and will not stand for it.
Edit: That's a good read, Teia. I hope that the call for introspection doesn't fall on deaf ears though.
For me this is exactly whats so wrong about even considering this to be any form of "solution".
Its lynch mob thinking.
You just want blood and you want to burn someone for a topic that neither deserves this form of punishment or even such an reaction at all.
Its a topic that could and should be solved without the giant fuzz of the public and without any major casualties.
And to do that you need a neutral judge , and neither person is neutral in this topic, especially as it becomes such a topic that doesnt even allow a neutral perspective, if its so extreme and takes much harsher topics into the mix, just to further bolster sides and make any actively productive discussion downright impossible.
----
Nothing Jeremy did justifies any over the top reaction. Critic yes, its even totally fine to blame his behavior, and it should be discussed as what it is, do not make this person responsible for ANY problem just to have someone to blame and put all the blame on.
By doing so you simply push a topic and hurt the community more, as it will further split people apart and make the problem just deeper and persistent.
Every time comments and arguments go further and become more harsh, at some point people have to say so and find a balance again.
----
If there is an form of greater issue, especially in your local environment, it should be dealt with.
But putting all the blame and shame on Jeremy alone, is an entire problem of its (thats just wrong).
The truly harmful individuals arent so easily taken out of responsibility, anybody that sends death threat emails is a real issue on its own and cannot simply put the blame on Jeremy (adults should be responsible enough to see they have to think what they are doing and not mindlessly rampage and insult people around them).
Make sure you arent just becoming part of a lynch mob. If justice should be truly done, it needs to have a proper call from a neutral party, it cannot be a fair solution to burn on side to the ground and just ignore them.
Yeah, it's lynch mob nonsense taken to the extreme.
Someone doesn't tow the far Left line? BURN THE HERETIC! /sarcasm
I just read the editorial on the front page of the site. Thinly (very thinly) veiled hard Left call for speech codes within the greater MTG community.
This site can set w/e rules they want for what can and can't be posted here. It's private property. If they want to drive away everyone but people who would be comfortable at some hole of groupthink like UC Berkley (for example), they have the right to do so.
BUT, try that within the larger community of all MTG players, and you'll do nothing but divide the game and its players along political lines.
Imagine Christine as an elite quarterback that kept getting hit because her team couldn't pay for an effective offensive line so she moved to another team.
did she move by her own decision or was she traded? was her contract up and she was a restricted free agent or an unrestricted free agent? were any compensatory draft picks given up to acquire her? did she take a pay cut to play for a better team or did she sign with a non-playoff contending team for a larger guaranteed contract? while im sure she would like to play for a winning team, if history has taught us anything i have a feeling she would simply go after the money.
MtG, both the fanbase and WotC, doesn't (economically) appreciate their content creators enough. Defunding people like Jeremy and creating a safety net for victims of harassment and other negative behaviors is just the very tip of the iceberg of what needs to be done for us to have a healthy and productive community.
who decides what harassment and other negative behaviors is? if you felt you were harassed how would you make a claim and for what amount would you be entitled?
, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left.
probably should have left that part out. you will have a non zero sum of people see that comment and already form an opinion based on your suggested political stance. if you truly want an honest and mutual understanding starting from a neutral base is the best method i.e. no mention of political leanings. that is unless you really just want to get pats on the back from the people who already agree with you and reaffirm your beliefs.
out of curiosity, if this guy has been such a problem for such a long time why has it just being reported. while i admit i am not in the loop with mtg on youtube or podcasts (or even in america) i would have thought something would have shown up here like this thread did. is the outrage now only because his comments were towards a person a lot of people liked? and if the comments were made 6 months ago why did the outcry just happen? why werent people angry 6 months ago when it happened?
out of curiosity, if this guy has been such a problem for such a long time why has it just being reported. while i admit i am not in the loop with mtg on youtube or podcasts (or even in america) i would have thought something would have shown up here like this thread did. is the outrage now only because his comments were towards a person a lot of people liked? and if the comments were made 6 months ago why did the outcry just happen? why werent people angry 6 months ago when it happened?
It sometimes takes a while for a harassment victim to come forward because of there's such a cultural force to keep them from doing so. People will flat out not believe them, there are requests for unequivocal proof, it gets brushed off as 'oh that's just Bob being Bob,' and some will even say the victim should have known better (as in 'why did you dress like that if you didn't want attention?). Sprankle dealt with this for six months longer than she should due to pretty much the reactions we are seeing in this thread.
I think right now, everyone thinks the truth is what they want to believe, and not the actual truth.
Comparing MTG to the NHL, Jeremy says something Christine doesn't like, and a mob comes after him, to the point of giving him death threats. A player purposely brutally injures a player and is out for season. Fans of teams let the league handle it and will only complain if punishment isn't harsh enough. That suspended player gets booed by fans of injured player's team every time he gets on the ice after suspension is over. No death threats.
Steve = Quarterback.
Sean = Pass rusher.
Helmet to helmet contact.
Steve gets concussion.
If this thread was talking about football, all fans of the team Sean plays on would be banned. Saying that Steve lowered his head and Sean couldn't lay off, because you are a biased fan of Sean's team, would get you banned. Saying and agreeing with anything but "Sean is a dirty player" will get you banned.
Also people need to get over themselves, shutting down youtube videos is for stuff thats about racial supremacy or claiming that x race should be exterminated.
Just because someone is behaving boorish doesnt mean its hate speech.
For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
And?
I could have told you what you had written before I read it.
It doesn't say anything new, where is the mutual part? People are well aware of that opinion, if you have a problem with it you aren't welcome here.
How about a challenge, try to look at it from the other point of view?
I agree. I also feel that by doubling down on Jeremy, by removing his social media presence, his Patreon account, his Youtube channels, and destroying his reputation all because of this abuse (and I'm not just talking about Christine, but everyone who can supply evidence of his harassment), will set a precedent that can be used in the future for others to lean on when facing similar problems.
Also, by making an example of Jeremy, we, as a community, can go a long way to showing those who are outside our bubble that we do not appreciate this kind of behaviour in our shops, homes, pro tours, GPs, etc. and will not stand for it.
Edit: That's a good read, Teia. I hope that the call for introspection doesn't fall on deaf ears though.
For me this is exactly whats so wrong about even considering this to be any form of "solution".
Its lynch mob thinking.
You just want blood and you want to burn someone for a topic that neither deserves this form of punishment or even such an reaction at all.
Its a topic that could and should be solved without the giant fuzz of the public and without any major casualties.
And to do that you need a neutral judge , and neither person is neutral in this topic, especially as it becomes such a topic that doesnt even allow a neutral perspective, if its so extreme and takes much harsher topics into the mix, just to further bolster sides and make any actively productive discussion downright impossible.
----
Nothing Jeremy did justifies any over the top reaction. Critic yes, its even totally fine to blame his behavior, and it should be discussed as what it is, do not make this person responsible for ANY problem just to have someone to blame and put all the blame on.
By doing so you simply push a topic and hurt the community more, as it will further split people apart and make the problem just deeper and persistent.
Every time comments and arguments go further and become more harsh, at some point people have to say so and find a balance again.
----
If there is an form of greater issue, especially in your local environment, it should be dealt with.
But putting all the blame and shame on Jeremy alone, is an entire problem of its (thats just wrong).
The truly harmful individuals arent so easily taken out of responsibility, anybody that sends death threat emails is a real issue on its own and cannot simply put the blame on Jeremy (adults should be responsible enough to see they have to think what they are doing and not mindlessly rampage and insult people around them).
Make sure you arent just becoming part of a lynch mob. If justice should be truly done, it needs to have a proper call from a neutral party, it cannot be a fair solution to burn on side to the ground and just ignore them.
Yeah, it's lynch mob nonsense taken to the extreme.
Someone doesn't tow the far Left line? BURN THE HERETIC! /sarcasm
I just read the editorial on the front page of the site. Thinly (very thinly) veiled hard Left call for speech codes within the greater MTG community.
This site can set w/e rules they want for what can and can't be posted here. It's private property. If they want to drive away everyone but people who would be comfortable at some hole of groupthink like UC Berkley (for example), they have the right to do so.
BUT, try that within the larger community of all MTG players, and you'll do nothing but divide the game and its players along political lines.
Just more of what our world needs. /snort
People do not want Jeremy punished for his political views. They want him punished because he is am intentional POS edgelord who revels in being a miserable person and making others miserable.
Playing Magic is not a right, it is a privelege. Going to tournaments is not a right, it is a privelege. Having a youtube channel is not a right, it is a privelege. If you act like a child you will be treated like one. Jeremy is an overgrown child who does not want any form of responsibility for what he does or says publicly, amd wamts to say whatever he wants without being held accountable. Too bad, kiddo, that is not how the world works. It is time for him to grow up, and if he decides not to there are consequences for that. We do not reward people for being POS edgelords, nor should we. This entire situation is self-inflicted nonsense from someone who needs to grow up.
You know, we're going to end up with fans of people like Unsleeved and Desolator on one side, and Wedge and Professor Hippy Hair on the the other. I can't help but think that Wedge and the Prof, among others, are just making it worse. Now, I don't like Mr. Unsleeved Media guy at all. His content annoys me, whereas I've built MTGO decks showcased by Wedge, and often watch the Prof. for entertainment.
That said, I ALSO don't like Sprankle. If you really want a realistic view on the subject, I suggest Desolator Magic.
I think right now, everyone thinks the truth is what they want to believe, and not the actual truth.
Comparing MTG to the NHL, Jeremy says something Christine doesn't like, and a mob comes after him, to the point of giving him death threats. A player purposely brutally injures a player and is out for season. Fans of teams let the league handle it and will only complain if punishment isn't harsh enough. That suspended player gets booed by fans of injured player's team every time he gets on the ice after suspension is over. No death threats.
Steve = Quarterback.
Sean = Pass rusher.
Helmet to helmet contact.
Steve gets concussion.
If this thread was talking about football, all fans of the team Sean plays on would be banned. Saying that Steve lowered his head and Sean couldn't lay off, because you are a biased fan of Sean's team, would get you banned. Saying and agreeing with anything but "Sean is a dirty player" will get you banned.
That is not what the situation is, at all. Jeremy is an intentional edgelord whom revels in making others miserable. He has personal beef with Christine.
He is nownfacing backlash because he of his decision to be a miserable edgelord, on purpose mind you.
Jeremy has a massive cjip on his shoulders because various groups want nothing to do with him, at all. He was booted from a youtuber event for being a massove ass. WotC took his previews away because he is a massive ass. He moans a out not getting invited to the Community Cup or being officially recognized by WotC, however that may have to do with him being a giant edgelord ass who makes rape jokes, insinuates one of their employees is a pedophile amd sexual predator, constantly insults their employees by name, opened a video by giving them the middle finger, and constantly craps on the company and product. All of this is his right to do (well, the idiocy he pulled on Rosewater is not), however he is a gobsmacking moron if he thinks WotC is going to support him after all of that. Saying what you wamt when you want has consequences in the real world, kid, and the real world is not in the market of rewarding edfelords for being edgelords. He is a whiny brat who believes he is owed something, and bemoans how unfair he is being treated. Because of his massive entitlement complex, he has decided to lash out at everyone because he didnt get his candy.
I am not making a knee-jerk reaction based on my favorite content creators amd famboyism. I find TCC to be rather uninteresting, with a quality reminiscient of unironicly low quality high achool media productions. I have yet to see a video from Wedge that piques my interest at all. I could care less about cosplay to any degree. The only videos I watch on any regular basis are Rudy's (however his intentional melodramatic style grows old at times) and MTGGoldfish (as they have the most polished style with actually unique content).
I think right now, everyone thinks the truth is what they want to believe, and not the actual truth.
Comparing MTG to the NHL, Jeremy says something Christine doesn't like, and a mob comes after him, to the point of giving him death threats. A player purposely brutally injures a player and is out for season. Fans of teams let the league handle it and will only complain if punishment isn't harsh enough. That suspended player gets booed by fans of injured player's team every time he gets on the ice after suspension is over. No death threats.
Steve = Quarterback.
Sean = Pass rusher.
Helmet to helmet contact.
Steve gets concussion.
If this thread was talking about football, all fans of the team Sean plays on would be banned. Saying that Steve lowered his head and Sean couldn't lay off, because you are a biased fan of Sean's team, would get you banned. Saying and agreeing with anything but "Sean is a dirty player" will get you banned.
That is not what the situation is, at all. Jeremy is an intentional edgelord whom revels in making others miserable. He has personal beef with Christine.
He is nownfacing backlash because he of his decision to be a miserable edgelord, on purpose mind you.
Jeremy has a massive cjip on his shoulders because various groups want nothing to do with him, at all. He was booted from a youtuber event for being a massove ass. WotC took his previews away because he is a massive ass. He moans a out not getting invited to the Community Cup or being officially recognized by WotC, however that may have to do with him being a giant edgelord ass who makes rape jokes, insinuates one of their employees is a pedophile amd sexual predator, constantly insults their employees by name, opened a video by giving them the middle finger, and constantly craps on the company and product. All of this is his right to do (well, the idiocy he pulled on Rosewater is not), however he is a gobsmacking moron if he thinks WotC is going to support him after all of that. Saying what you wamt when you want has consequences in the real world, kid, and the real world is not in the market of rewarding edfelords for being edgelords. He is a whiny brat who believes he is owed something, and bemoans how unfair he is being treated. Because of his massive entitlement complex, he has decided to lash out at everyone because he didnt get his candy.
He said Rosewater is a pedophile to prove how twitter polls cannot be trusted. Rosewater's twitter poll say 70% of people get harassed. 70% of what? The entire community? I think not.
How about a challenge, try to look at it from the other point of view?
I've been on the other side. At one time in my life, I was actually quite a vocal anti-feminist, believe it or not. I have more than a decade of experience with -chan culture and my relationship to it has similarly changed over the years. I went from the "for the lulz" kind of poster to the "get back to /pol/" kind of poster (fun fact: on a lot of boards, there's a very sizable population of outright progressive posters with no patience for the kind of "chan culture" /pol/ represents). You can't get a better look at a point of view than having sincerely espoused it before.
I understand where the trolls are coming from and why they think what they think. I understand the people I'm calling out in my editorial, even if I stridently disagree with them. The people who use pejorative acronyms and derogatory epithets to refer to Sprankle's defenders, however, seem to be making no effort to understand the people they're insulting.
Once I refer to someone as a Troll its because I dismiss anything they have to say, so I highly doubt there is any attempt to see the other side as legitimate.
Well, now that this has spread to outside the mtg community this could pose a problem on wizards PR front. It's not the worst thing wotc has had to deal with, but it's going to hurt player retention and definitely hurt the growth of the game.
The problem is the lack of experience and guidance on how the effected parties should have handled this. In addition, people like mtglion are making their lack of worldliness known in spades.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've been on the other side. At one time in my life, I was actually quite a vocal anti-feminist, believe it or not. I have more than a decade of experience with -chan culture and my relationship to it has similarly changed over the years. I went from the "for the lulz" kind of poster to the "get back to /pol/" kind of poster (fun fact: on a lot of boards, there's a very sizable population of outright progressive posters with no patience for the kind of "chan culture" /pol/ represents). You can't get a better look at a point of view than having sincerely espoused it before.
The very same is true for Jeremy.
Started out super edgy and you get the easy attention by using "bad" words, its text-book.
As of right now, theres hardly any point in that anymore.
Just like you changed over time, thats true for other people too.
----
Would you say the "for the lulz" people are somewhat evil people ?
They simply dont think about what they say as deeply, which might be stupidity for some, but its also a way of freedom to say stuff that others wouldnt (its more honest in that way).
And especially for youtube, if someone disagrees they are free to make videos of their own and start a conversation in public (which Jeremy clearly is doing as public as is possible).
For me the most important aspect is to realize that we are all people and in the end every magic player is fairly reasonable to talk with, the game is common ground and downright hating each other isnt going to do anything positive.
The most important part still is, what happens if you see you did something stupid.
Do you get punished ? And if how.
And what good does a punishment do that simply produces more harm.
----
What currently happens is the kind of outcry that goes WAY over the top and produces just hatred and flame, and either side will feel like nobody gets their point and it leads to nothing.
For those interested in reading a bit more about the greater issues behind these and other incidents, I recently posted an editorial on the subject. It pulls no punches, but if anyone in here finds my rhetoric unsettling, try not to write it off as just the rantings of someone on the far left. Mutual understanding is essential both to understand where harassment comes from and how to unpack those unpleasant aspects of ourselves we don't usually question.
I read it, and honestly have to ask, what planet do you live on, because it isn’t earth. Seriously, you’re a mod for this site? Pushing such an agenda? What’s hilarious is you put the majority in a catch 22. I don’t want to read about such things on a forum for playing cards, regardless of whether or not it’s an actual problem in the community for said cards(I’m not saying it’s not, but it is absolutely not as bad as you claim it is to be), but if I ignore it and it’s message, I’m part of the problem, or, if I disagree, I’m part of the problem. So that leaves me the only choice of agreeing and joining your crusade, no?
This isn’t a case where you fight fire with fire, is all you will end up doing is burning everybody involved. That’s not even a rational thought to begin with, yet you ask for the community as a whole to take that approach. Yikes.
Look at it this way. I don’t agree with this Jeremy’s characters actions, not one bit(I’d consider this extreme behavior), but I am further against what you are promoting(which is extremist behavior-comply or die mentality). I find people like you more frightening than a-holes like Jeremy. Where does it end?
Speaking of, I read through the comments there. While I’m not entirely familiar with the difference between there and here, how is it that some of those comments are just “mod notes-flaming”? Flaming is how harrasment starts. This discussion has just devolved into hypocrisy in its truest form.
I looked at the reporting options and it seems to be focused on comments instead of reporting video content. It does infer video content, but how exactly do we report it?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Not really. At least not in a world where women want equal rights as men but not equal wrongs. I'm not condoning Jeremy's behavior. I think he's in the wrong here, regardless of the genders of those involved. But, this situation, conversation, etc wouldn't be happening if even just the victim was a man (regardless of the offender's gender). Especially if he were a white hetero conservative, Christian, creationist, capitalist, American republican male. If that were the case, leftists would be justifying Jeremy's behavior, especially if he was an albino negro Islamic transgender hermaphroditic illegal alien on welfare. The hypocrisy inherent to leftist thought has coalesced in this thread as a sickening "mod mentality". Not to say that I'm sickened by their stance against the likes of Jeremy (I too stand against such people), but as to WHY they hold that stance. 1984
This is all a mass marketing made by wizards for Rivals of Ixalan!
https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/29/16709796/magic-the-gathering-cosplayer-harassment-youtube
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Unproven? The only things you need to see to prove his harassment is Prof's video.
And has been called sexist? That rape tweet that has been posted in this forum is enough to prove that.
My partner always tells me that if you say something and follow it by 'but', you don't 100% mean the things you just said.
Your argument here says that people wouldn't react in the same way if the victim was different. Do you really think this statement was necessary? Do you feel that saying, "yeah this person was harassed, but these other people..." is in any way constructive? You move the attention away from the people being harassed/abused/whatever on to this random, made up group of people (or several in your case), and make the situation about them, and not the people actually being harassed.
Next time, if you agree with the victim, don't distract from their plight. Join them. Help them. And once society shifts into a place where that group of people are not being targeted, you can bring up the next group.
No offense to Sprankle, but this single event is only significant in how it shines light on a larger issue within the community. At this point there's not much that can even really be done for her specifically anyway. More important is to consider how we handle future harassment, and being unbiased towards gender is an important part of that. Looking at either end of the spectrum can help make sure we're responding fairly. If you wouldn't feel compelled to defend some other person, who might be a different (gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, political opinion, etc) from the same situation, then you may need to re-calibrate your metrics for what constitutes harassment and when you (or someone else) should get involved.
Personally I'm not sure how it would have gone down if the roles had been reversed. It may still have been the same outrage. Or maybe not. But if we aren't analyzing our response and making sure we're fair, then there could be other cases of harassment that never get noticed because they never raise the same public outcry, and we never think about them. I don't like this idea that we can only think about one group of people at a time. When someone's being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what group they belong to.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I agree. I also feel that by doubling down on Jeremy, by removing his social media presence, his Patreon account, his Youtube channels, and destroying his reputation all because of this abuse (and I'm not just talking about Christine, but everyone who can supply evidence of his harassment), will set a precedent that can be used in the future for others to lean on when facing similar problems.
Also, by making an example of Jeremy, we, as a community, can go a long way to showing those who are outside our bubble that we do not appreciate this kind of behaviour in our shops, homes, pro tours, GPs, etc. and will not stand for it.
Edit: That's a good read, Teia. I hope that the call for introspection doesn't fall on deaf ears though.
For me this is exactly whats so wrong about even considering this to be any form of "solution".
Its lynch mob thinking.
You just want blood and you want to burn someone for a topic that neither deserves this form of punishment or even such an reaction at all.
Its a topic that could and should be solved without the giant fuzz of the public and without any major casualties.
And to do that you need a neutral judge , and neither person is neutral in this topic, especially as it becomes such a topic that doesnt even allow a neutral perspective, if its so extreme and takes much harsher topics into the mix, just to further bolster sides and make any actively productive discussion downright impossible.
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Nothing Jeremy did justifies any over the top reaction. Critic yes, its even totally fine to blame his behavior, and it should be discussed as what it is, do not make this person responsible for ANY problem just to have someone to blame and put all the blame on.
By doing so you simply push a topic and hurt the community more, as it will further split people apart and make the problem just deeper and persistent.
Every time comments and arguments go further and become more harsh, at some point people have to say so and find a balance again.
----
If there is an form of greater issue, especially in your local environment, it should be dealt with.
But putting all the blame and shame on Jeremy alone, is an entire problem of its (thats just wrong).
The truly harmful individuals arent so easily taken out of responsibility, anybody that sends death threat emails is a real issue on its own and cannot simply put the blame on Jeremy (adults should be responsible enough to see they have to think what they are doing and not mindlessly rampage and insult people around them).
Make sure you arent just becoming part of a lynch mob. If justice should be truly done, it needs to have a proper call from a neutral party, it cannot be a fair solution to burn on side to the ground and just ignore them.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Yeah, it's lynch mob nonsense taken to the extreme.
Someone doesn't tow the far Left line? BURN THE HERETIC! /sarcasm
I just read the editorial on the front page of the site. Thinly (very thinly) veiled hard Left call for speech codes within the greater MTG community.
This site can set w/e rules they want for what can and can't be posted here. It's private property. If they want to drive away everyone but people who would be comfortable at some hole of groupthink like UC Berkley (for example), they have the right to do so.
BUT, try that within the larger community of all MTG players, and you'll do nothing but divide the game and its players along political lines.
Just more of what our world needs. /snort
who decides what harassment and other negative behaviors is? if you felt you were harassed how would you make a claim and for what amount would you be entitled?
even more so if it were a male cosplayer that he called 6 out of 10.
that wouldnt be a bad idea, but they keep forgetting to mention the product.
probably should have left that part out. you will have a non zero sum of people see that comment and already form an opinion based on your suggested political stance. if you truly want an honest and mutual understanding starting from a neutral base is the best method i.e. no mention of political leanings. that is unless you really just want to get pats on the back from the people who already agree with you and reaffirm your beliefs.
out of curiosity, if this guy has been such a problem for such a long time why has it just being reported. while i admit i am not in the loop with mtg on youtube or podcasts (or even in america) i would have thought something would have shown up here like this thread did. is the outrage now only because his comments were towards a person a lot of people liked? and if the comments were made 6 months ago why did the outcry just happen? why werent people angry 6 months ago when it happened?
I admit to be a complete idiot who can't read. Care to point out to me the call for speech code?
It sometimes takes a while for a harassment victim to come forward because of there's such a cultural force to keep them from doing so. People will flat out not believe them, there are requests for unequivocal proof, it gets brushed off as 'oh that's just Bob being Bob,' and some will even say the victim should have known better (as in 'why did you dress like that if you didn't want attention?). Sprankle dealt with this for six months longer than she should due to pretty much the reactions we are seeing in this thread.
Comparing MTG to the NHL, Jeremy says something Christine doesn't like, and a mob comes after him, to the point of giving him death threats. A player purposely brutally injures a player and is out for season. Fans of teams let the league handle it and will only complain if punishment isn't harsh enough. That suspended player gets booed by fans of injured player's team every time he gets on the ice after suspension is over. No death threats.
Steve = Quarterback.
Sean = Pass rusher.
Helmet to helmet contact.
Steve gets concussion.
If this thread was talking about football, all fans of the team Sean plays on would be banned. Saying that Steve lowered his head and Sean couldn't lay off, because you are a biased fan of Sean's team, would get you banned. Saying and agreeing with anything but "Sean is a dirty player" will get you banned.
Also people need to get over themselves, shutting down youtube videos is for stuff thats about racial supremacy or claiming that x race should be exterminated.
Just because someone is behaving boorish doesnt mean its hate speech.
And?
I could have told you what you had written before I read it.
It doesn't say anything new, where is the mutual part? People are well aware of that opinion, if you have a problem with it you aren't welcome here.
How about a challenge, try to look at it from the other point of view?
People do not want Jeremy punished for his political views. They want him punished because he is am intentional POS edgelord who revels in being a miserable person and making others miserable.
Playing Magic is not a right, it is a privelege. Going to tournaments is not a right, it is a privelege. Having a youtube channel is not a right, it is a privelege. If you act like a child you will be treated like one. Jeremy is an overgrown child who does not want any form of responsibility for what he does or says publicly, amd wamts to say whatever he wants without being held accountable. Too bad, kiddo, that is not how the world works. It is time for him to grow up, and if he decides not to there are consequences for that. We do not reward people for being POS edgelords, nor should we. This entire situation is self-inflicted nonsense from someone who needs to grow up.
That said, I ALSO don't like Sprankle. If you really want a realistic view on the subject, I suggest Desolator Magic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhmwUkZrKKM
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
That is not what the situation is, at all. Jeremy is an intentional edgelord whom revels in making others miserable. He has personal beef with Christine.
He is nownfacing backlash because he of his decision to be a miserable edgelord, on purpose mind you.
Jeremy has a massive cjip on his shoulders because various groups want nothing to do with him, at all. He was booted from a youtuber event for being a massove ass. WotC took his previews away because he is a massive ass. He moans a out not getting invited to the Community Cup or being officially recognized by WotC, however that may have to do with him being a giant edgelord ass who makes rape jokes, insinuates one of their employees is a pedophile amd sexual predator, constantly insults their employees by name, opened a video by giving them the middle finger, and constantly craps on the company and product. All of this is his right to do (well, the idiocy he pulled on Rosewater is not), however he is a gobsmacking moron if he thinks WotC is going to support him after all of that. Saying what you wamt when you want has consequences in the real world, kid, and the real world is not in the market of rewarding edfelords for being edgelords. He is a whiny brat who believes he is owed something, and bemoans how unfair he is being treated. Because of his massive entitlement complex, he has decided to lash out at everyone because he didnt get his candy.
I am not making a knee-jerk reaction based on my favorite content creators amd famboyism. I find TCC to be rather uninteresting, with a quality reminiscient of unironicly low quality high achool media productions. I have yet to see a video from Wedge that piques my interest at all. I could care less about cosplay to any degree. The only videos I watch on any regular basis are Rudy's (however his intentional melodramatic style grows old at times) and MTGGoldfish (as they have the most polished style with actually unique content).
He said Rosewater is a pedophile to prove how twitter polls cannot be trusted. Rosewater's twitter poll say 70% of people get harassed. 70% of what? The entire community? I think not.
I've been on the other side. At one time in my life, I was actually quite a vocal anti-feminist, believe it or not. I have more than a decade of experience with -chan culture and my relationship to it has similarly changed over the years. I went from the "for the lulz" kind of poster to the "get back to /pol/" kind of poster (fun fact: on a lot of boards, there's a very sizable population of outright progressive posters with no patience for the kind of "chan culture" /pol/ represents). You can't get a better look at a point of view than having sincerely espoused it before.
I understand where the trolls are coming from and why they think what they think. I understand the people I'm calling out in my editorial, even if I stridently disagree with them. The people who use pejorative acronyms and derogatory epithets to refer to Sprankle's defenders, however, seem to be making no effort to understand the people they're insulting.
The problem is the lack of experience and guidance on how the effected parties should have handled this. In addition, people like mtglion are making their lack of worldliness known in spades.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The very same is true for Jeremy.
Started out super edgy and you get the easy attention by using "bad" words, its text-book.
As of right now, theres hardly any point in that anymore.
Just like you changed over time, thats true for other people too.
----
Would you say the "for the lulz" people are somewhat evil people ?
They simply dont think about what they say as deeply, which might be stupidity for some, but its also a way of freedom to say stuff that others wouldnt (its more honest in that way).
And especially for youtube, if someone disagrees they are free to make videos of their own and start a conversation in public (which Jeremy clearly is doing as public as is possible).
For me the most important aspect is to realize that we are all people and in the end every magic player is fairly reasonable to talk with, the game is common ground and downright hating each other isnt going to do anything positive.
The most important part still is, what happens if you see you did something stupid.
Do you get punished ? And if how.
And what good does a punishment do that simply produces more harm.
----
What currently happens is the kind of outcry that goes WAY over the top and produces just hatred and flame, and either side will feel like nobody gets their point and it leads to nothing.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
I read it, and honestly have to ask, what planet do you live on, because it isn’t earth. Seriously, you’re a mod for this site? Pushing such an agenda? What’s hilarious is you put the majority in a catch 22. I don’t want to read about such things on a forum for playing cards, regardless of whether or not it’s an actual problem in the community for said cards(I’m not saying it’s not, but it is absolutely not as bad as you claim it is to be), but if I ignore it and it’s message, I’m part of the problem, or, if I disagree, I’m part of the problem. So that leaves me the only choice of agreeing and joining your crusade, no?
This isn’t a case where you fight fire with fire, is all you will end up doing is burning everybody involved. That’s not even a rational thought to begin with, yet you ask for the community as a whole to take that approach. Yikes.
Look at it this way. I don’t agree with this Jeremy’s characters actions, not one bit(I’d consider this extreme behavior), but I am further against what you are promoting(which is extremist behavior-comply or die mentality). I find people like you more frightening than a-holes like Jeremy. Where does it end?
Speaking of, I read through the comments there. While I’m not entirely familiar with the difference between there and here, how is it that some of those comments are just “mod notes-flaming”? Flaming is how harrasment starts. This discussion has just devolved into hypocrisy in its truest form.