I know I'm not in a position to have a say on this, but I think it is just better to lock the thread and do not talk about the subject then. I accept my infraction, it is okay, but higher levels of policing in a delicate matter like this is not going to foster an environment for a positive dicussion, in my view. I feel like this current situation with the cosplayer is directly related to the topics I mentioned before. Look at the state of this thread: there are 4 mod posts so far and 3 community member posts.
If you think the subject can't be addressed in certain angles to the point that it can't be discussed, then it is better not to discuss it. That is how I see it. For instance, I disagree with something Marsquisd said, but I can't even address it without receiving another infraction.
I agree. The restrictions placed on this topic is throttling a frank and important discussion. Instead, I have to focus far more energy considering my words carefully or risk infractions. We all get it, it's just xkcd #1357. So do we want to be part of the solution or part of the problem? Keep in mind, doing nothing equates to being part of the problem.
If we, the community, can't actively draw the line in the sand and tell WotC, sponsors and the rest outliers of the community that toxic behavior is flat out not acceptable from either side, then why are "we" a part of that community?
Edit: removed link due to language I didn't notice
If you truly find it difficult to say what you think needs to be said without including an entire paragraph to explain that "oh sjws started it", like that first guy did, then I am inclined to believe you do not actually have anything important to say on this topic.
I'm not sure how you derive an opinion like that from my post. My point wasn't about who started it.
The real doubt is whether this will ultimatedly benefit Jeremy, he seems to make more money/views out of victimizing himself for stormfront/4chan to pick him up than with his actual youtube "content". If we really wanted to benefit Christine we'd have helped her achieve her goal of professionalizing cosplay through Patreon.
We're not likely to benefit other women either, we're chasing our tails telling people who already respect women that disrespecting women isn't ok. It's like putting a lock on a walled door.
I would be shocked and appalled, if this was the first time or the hundredth time for that matter. All the stories that don't boil over like this. All who felt chased off by others. All who felt uncomfortable and unwanted among others. All the voices that don't get the same attention. I believe what was done was wrong and I don't tolerate it either, however I honestly can't get too heated over the matter.
the way this thread is set up, only people who think the same and will side with Christine will be in this thread. Ergo, the mods have created an echo chamber.
However, I've never seen anyone change their mind on the internet. The people who have the power to change things really are WOTC. If they take a less vague and more loud stand against Jeremy and his ilk, it will send a clear message of who isn't and who is welcome to the community.
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the way this thread is set up, only people who think the same and will side with Christine will be in this thread. Ergo, the mods have created an echo chamber.
However, I've never seen anyone change their mind on the internet. The people who have the power to change things really are WOTC. If they take a less vague and more loud stand against Jeremy and his ilk, it will send a clear message of who isn't and who is welcome to the community.
Oh but they have taken a "loud stand against Jeremy" in the past, several times in fact. He also used those as a shield and pleaded he was unjustly being harassed by the big bad company.
EDIT:
Example 1: He and other gets shadow blocked on facebook by WotC? Makes vile tweets about it and also makes a video demonizing them while playing the victim card.
Example 2: He gets banned from WotC's Twitch channel? (same result as example 1)
Example 3: He gets blocked by other members within the MTG community on social media websites? (same result as example 1)
Example 4: Someone in the MTG community tries to get their Patreon setup? (same result as example 1)
Example 5: A higher up from WotC directly calls him out on Twitter and does not want to associate with him or want him in the community? (same result as example 1)
I know I am missing other instances where he has done this tired song and dance. He honestly has a bad influence on members of the community.
the way this thread is set up, only people who think the same and will side with Christine will be in this thread. Ergo, the mods have created an echo chamber.
However, I've never seen anyone change their mind on the internet. The people who have the power to change things really are WOTC. If they take a less vague and more loud stand against Jeremy and his ilk, it will send a clear message of who isn't and who is welcome to the community.
I'm saying this without my mod hat (I don't even mod Magic General, so there's that) but no, you don't necessarily have to come to Christine's defense or attack Jeremy. What isn't tolerated however is glorifying, supporting or perpretrating any kind of abuse. Ergo, this thread is set up to discuss what happened. To think of ways to stop it. To inform people of what happened. So that people can see what exactly has been going on here.
It may seem like an echo chamber as a result. The problem is, if you don't preemptively cut off anything in support of any kind of abuse, you get situations like what happened over at Reddit, where the mods had to go on a banwave and a nuclear cleansing of the thread about the situation before allowing discussion again.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
However, this noble goal of self-reflection you espouse is undermined when the rules of engagement boil down to "agree or don't post."
If someone can't agree that hatred and misogyny have no place on MTGSalvation, then there's no place on MTGSalvation for them. Speaking in defense of those things is not "healthy discourse" and we aren't going to play some kind of false equivalency game and pretend otherwise.
I see you don't like false equivalency, but you're clearly a fan of straw men.
the way this thread is set up, only people who think the same and will side with Christine will be in this thread. Ergo, the mods have created an echo chamber.
However, I've never seen anyone change their mind on the internet. The people who have the power to change things really are WOTC. If they take a less vague and more loud stand against Jeremy and his ilk, it will send a clear message of who isn't and who is welcome to the community.
I'm saying this without my mod hat (I don't even mod Magic General, so there's that) but no, you don't necessarily have to come to Christine's defense or attack Jeremy. What isn't tolerated however is glorifying, supporting or perpretrating any kind of abuse. Ergo, this thread is set up to discuss what happened. To think of ways to stop it. To inform people of what happened. So that people can see what exactly has been going on here.
It may seem like an echo chamber as a result. The problem is, if you don't preemptively cut off anything in support of any kind of abuse, you get situations like what happened over at Reddit, where the mods had to go on a banwave and a nuclear cleansing of the thread about the situation before allowing discussion again.
I guess I'll tentatively trust you on this one, because I don't frequent Reddit, and while I really don't like how stifling the OP's rules are, I also don't think that anyone who would defend Jeremy would do so in any kind of polite manner. I'm still wary of group think in general, even when intentions are noble.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Jeremy doesn't need defending, as his reasoning is much more sound than anything I've heard coming from the opposite side. He also has a fair bit of objective truth defending him, which really causes any argument against him made from an average magic player to fall apart quickly. In order for you to identify any of his actions as the things you described, you must first prove that what you are talking about is what you say it is in logic, something you haven't done, therefore nothing you attribute as "Hate speech", "Harassment" or "Approxing of x" has any meaning. You have jumped multiple steps in the process of rational thought and thus, it's not you who is blocking out the people who can defend him. The people who can truly defend him would never waste their time with you, and considering the insult and disgrace you have already brought to the beautiful battlefield that is discussion, have no problems leaving you to rot. There is absolutely no reason to save you from yourself when you're going to point a plastic gun at the people who oppose and think it's going to do anything else but make them laugh.
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(Wildfire393):
Warning for ignoring a mod request - defending the harasser
Dude you are getting baited by him. Like it said here in the thread. Ignore these people that abandoned reasons to fuel their ideologies.
This Jeremy guy has the right to disagreed with other people but the way he goes with it its jsut nasty. Why would you be sutch a nasty person to get your points crossed? I guess it gets the attention of mobs to support him, it worked for Trump din't it?(Disclaimer!!!I have no intention of starting a politiccal discussion, was jsut using an example.)
As some of you have correctly surmised (even though you might dislike them), there is a reason the restrictions we put on this thread are there. I think it's worthwhile to explain ourselves in this instance. Free speech isn't an issue, we are neither a government agency nor are we being influenced by a government agency.
What we had was a decision to make: do we stifle all discussion, like we have in the past for contentious issues? No one is happy about that. Sometimes we lock threads to give a cool down period, and sometimes when it's obvious things will spin out of control or is beyond our ability to keep up with moderating. We don't like doing it just as much as you don't like having it done.
Do we allow open discussion on the issue? There are a lot of problems with that. The biggest one is that we give another platform for those who are not interested in debating in good faith. On some topics, that's a worthwhile risk, but is there really a "harassment is okay" side worth hearing out? Should we give a platform to those who just want to use it to further demean people? Other threads about this topic had disingenuous claims for 'more evidence' or otherwise repeated the same talking points, there really wouldn't be anything to say that hasn't been said a hundred times already. There's certainly a risk in never hearing the other side out, but part of the problem with harassment and toxicity in Magic is that the side not being heard is the harassed, especially when you've got loud voices claiming everything is copacetic.
So we set some groundrules. Really, really basic groundrules. If you can't make a cogent point without using "SJW", victim blaming, or ignoring the mountain of easily available evidence of harassment (at least in this one specific case), it's probably best that you are the one listening. You don't have to think Christine Sprankle is the greatest, you just can't malign her any further. We really want MTGS to be a community welcoming to all, and that hasn't always been the case. Our hope is that these ground rules will encourage people to participate who otherwise wouldn't because of the toxic mentalities. If you really think you have a strong point, but can't manage it without violating the above rules, you don't have the strong footing you think you do.
If you're interested in debating the merits of the groundrules, please remember that arguing moderator actions like this belong in the help deck for subforum, not in the thread itself.
These sites are connected to twitch, so if you had a half a brain you could have clearly checked my twitch and seen my face with 5 seconds of effort. Instead you spent minutes blabbing on about some garbage nobody cares about while trying to link me to a dropbox file, as if I'm going to open the file of someone as malicious as you.
I watched that video already, most of it is just the "prof" asking him to be nicer. He softly implies that there's no reason to be so mean about things(which may or may not be true depending on the individual situation), and also addresses the issue of viewers going around and doing what they want on the internet while softly implying that he has a part in influencing his viewers into taking certain actions. This doesn't prove anything Jeremy did is actually wrong, and he doesn't even really formulate any line of reasoning. Since there's no argument in the video and just small implications, you're going to come up with your own reasoning. That being said, I know you don't have what it takes, and I've posted two too many in this forum.
If you can't take the fact you're wrong, it's no wonder you're all mediocre at the game you play... you have no idea how to learn and grow as individuals, and it shows since you prefer to be here making a massive circlejerk over something you don't understand. You demonstrate a clear inability to listen to what other people have to say and break it down into its basic components, which completely defeats the purpose of discussing or talking to other people to begin with.
Leave the thinking to the people who practice thinking, and go back to playing your card game. You're not good at something just because you can blab your mouths on and on like buffoons, and it's completely your fault for not being prepared for it. If you want to do some good in the world, start by doing a lot less talking a lot more thinking.
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(Airithne):
Infraction for flaming.
Jeremy doesn't need defending, as his reasoning is much more sound than anything I've heard coming from the opposite side. He also has a fair bit of objective truth defending him, which really causes any argument against him made from an average magic player to fall apart quickly. In order for you to identify any of his actions as the things you described, you must first prove that what you are talking about is what you say it is in logic, something you haven't done, therefore nothing you attribute as "Hate speech", "Harassment" or "Approxing of x" has any meaning. You have jumped multiple steps in the process of rational thought and thus, it's not you who is blocking out the people who can defend him. The people who can truly defend him would never waste their time with you, and considering the insult and disgrace you have already brought to the beautiful battlefield that is discussion, have no problems leaving you to rot. There is absolutely no reason to save you from yourself when you're going to point a plastic gun at the people who oppose and think it's going to do anything else but make them laugh.
And yet, hilariously, here you are making sure we all know you're above it.
Because you don't care. And you don't care so much that you took the time to sign up for an account, and take two attempts at telling us how much you don't care.
Thanks, we certainly realize how far above it you are now.
Dude you are getting baited by him. Like it said here in the thread. Ignore these people that abandoned reasons to fuel their ideologies.
This Jeremy guy has the right to disagreed with other people but the way he goes with it its jsut nasty. Why would you be sutch a nasty person to get your points crossed? I guess it gets the attention of mobs to support him, it worked for Trump din't it?(Disclaimer!!!I have no intention of starting a politiccal discussion, was jsut using an example.)
You are right that I am being baited, but this all goes back to whether or not silence is complicity. I'd like nothing more than to ignore them, but that can also equate to standing idle while others are abused. It's tough to reconcile, but ultimately, I don't think I can choose silence. I want to, though. I really do. I'd like for this kind of speech to fall on deaf ears, but it doesn't.
Regarding one slice of Jay13x's comment, though: when I've advocated for open discourse earlier in this thread, it's not that I believe pro-misogyny, pro-abuse opinions should be heard or validated, but one may argue that this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. There may be a cogent point in that line of thinking somewhere, maybe placing some of the blame on offense culture. I don't believe it's being blown out of proportion, nor do I believe that this is an example of offense culture run amok, but equating that viewpoint with Jeremy's nonsense isn't fair.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
Regarding one slice of Jay13x's comment, though: when I've advocated for open discourse earlier in this thread, it's not that I believe pro-misogyny, pro-abuse opinions should be heard or validated, but one may argue that this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. There may be a cogent point in that line of thinking somewhere, maybe placing some of the blame on offense culture. I don't believe it's being blown out of proportion, nor do I believe that this is an example of offense culture run amok, but equating that viewpoint with Jeremy's nonsense isn't fair.
I was not targeting you specifically, but I've seen those comments a lot. These is perfectly find for discussion. I disagree, but you're allowed to think that this is in some ways overblown.
I don't think so, at least in this particular case. I think a lot of people feel brave enough to speak up about the harassment they've received over the years, and it came to a head when someone very visible finally said enough is enough.
I'll say what I said in the previous thread: Communities as large as the MTG community will likely have their negative elements. It's an unfortunate part of the human condition.
When you should start to worry IMO is when those people have actual power or influence, and based on what I've read in this thread so far, this Jeremy guy has some of the latter.
I guess I'll tentatively trust you on this one, because I don't frequent Reddit, and while I really don't like how stifling the OP's rules are, I also don't think that anyone who would defend Jeremy would do so in any kind of polite manner. I'm still wary of group think in general, even when intentions are noble.
as the one who made the thread, I will say that for the most part, I modeled the tone of our stance after Reddit, with the caveat that we deal in infractions/warnings, rather than outright bans and content removal. At the end of the day, either we give discussion a place, even if it's in a limited capacity, or we simply lock threads as they come up.
Now, to the discussion: this hits a bit too close to home for me. Full disclosure, I didn't know who Sprankle was prior to this, because I don't follow cosplay (and particularly mtg related cosplay) very closely and live under a rcok. But I have faced issues in the past just attending my LGS. Definitely nothing on this scale, but generally anything from being treated like a novice player before they've seen me play, to some fairly degrading comments on my appearance. I'm sure that on the front of at least assumptions about my abilities to play, it wasn't intended to be as rude as it was, but no one should be made to feel an outsider or leave their hobby feeling awful. It's a hobby, and it's to the benefit of all of us that we have a broad audience so that the game can continue.
Jeremy doesn't need defending, as his reasoning is much more sound than anything I've heard coming from the opposite side. He also has a fair bit of objective truth defending him, which really causes any argument against him made from an average magic player to fall apart quickly. In order for you to identify any of his actions as the things you described, you must first prove that what you are talking about is what you say it is in logic, something you haven't done, therefore nothing you attribute as "Hate speech", "Harassment" or "Approxing of x" has any meaning. You have jumped multiple steps in the process of rational thought and thus, it's not you who is blocking out the people who can defend him. The people who can truly defend him would never waste their time with you, and considering the insult and disgrace you have already brought to the beautiful battlefield that is discussion, have no problems leaving you to rot. There is absolutely no reason to save you from yourself when you're going to point a plastic gun at the people who oppose and think it's going to do anything else but make them laugh.
And yet, hilariously, here you are making sure we all know you're above it.
Because you don't care. And you don't care so much that you took the time to sign up for an account, and take two attempts at telling us how much you don't care.
Thanks, we certainly realize how far above it you are now.
I definitely do care, but unfortunately for you... not for the reason that your small brain was able to come up with. I didn't even know who Jeremy was up until today, and I really don't care moving forward, either. You are committing a crime far greater than having a stance on either side about who this Jeremy person is in this moment, and you seem to have no problem in doubling down on it. Even IF his actions can be put into criticism, the reasons you and your weak community have provided are completely fraudulent and a disgrace to humanity. In your best case scenario, you would be right for the wrong reasons. In your worst case scenario, you jumping off a cliff would be an improvement to your existence. I absolutely do have a problem with you polluting the world with the garbage you are spewing, which is insulting to both intelligence and sense itself. In fact, I care enough to waste my time with a bunch of losers like you who I can very clearly see are lost causes, banking on the 0.000001% that you're not already 6 feet underground to the rest of us who are living.
The truth speaks for itself, but villains like you don't stop by yourselves. You never stop until you are dead, that is why there's people like me whose greatest accomplishments go beyond "banned some guy who disagreed with me" on a forum. Feel free to say what you want about me, but what I represent can never be destroyed, you dumb piece of ***** admin. ROFL.
Public Mod Note
(Airithne):
Infraction for flaming.
Real question here then: if you don't play Magic, and you don't know who Jeremy is or anything about the issue at hand...why are you here? You speak in generalities that belie your inexperience with any of the topics being discussed. It's not even clear what you're defending or advocating, because stuff like this...
The truth speaks for itself, but villains like you don't stop by yourselves. You never stop until you are dead, that is why there's people like me whose greatest accomplishments go beyond "banned some guy who disagreed with me" on a forum. Feel free to say what you want about me, but what I represent can never be destroyed, you dumb piece of ***** admin. ROFL.
...makes no sense. These are the rants and ravings as someone who appears ill. If it's not that, this is either some next level trolling, or just a complete lack of self-awareness. I sincerely hope it's one of the latter two.
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Can you name all of the creature types with at least 20 cards? Try my Sporcle Quiz! Last Updated: 6/29/20 (Core Set 2021).
I don't think anyone is necessarily on Christine's side automatically if they do not like what Jeremy was doing. The guy pushed his right of free speech to the limit posting the kind of inflammatory subject matter he presented. No one said free speech was free of consequences.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with Jeremy, and quite frankly find this thread a joke. The rules basically prevent any discussion that sides with what he said, which I believe makes this thread little more than an echo chamber.
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(Airithne):
Infraction for ignoring a moderator request.
I agree with Jeremy, and quite frankly find this thread a joke. The rules basically prevent any discussion that sides with what he said, which I believe makes this thread little more than an echo chamber.
So why do you agree with him, and what are you agreeing with in particular?
I agree with Jeremy, and quite frankly find this thread a joke. The rules basically prevent any discussion that sides with what he said, which I believe makes this thread little more than an echo chamber.
so... genuinely, your stance is that harassment, personal attacks on people and hateful language inciting mob-trolling against groups of people and individuals is ok?
on what bizzaro-world do we live where people like you actually agree with this sort of behaviour?
to agree with Jeremy is to say this: I am ok with publicly insulting and inciting hate against people. Not only that, but when those people get upset, I won't apologise - I will insult them further. I will incite others to also join in the hate-train on these victims and then when (finally) the community calls me out, I will play the victim card and blame vague faceless (even political) loosely-defined social groups as if it's some great conspiracy against free speech or thought, and completely fail to address or understand the individual criticisms levelled against me. I will show no understanding of how vile and hateful i've been to other people, and I will self-excuse my behaviour in a way which shows borderline sociopathic tendencies.
that's what you're saying, right?
i mean, most toddlers understand that if you upset someone with a poorly-chosen statement or 'joke', the first thing to do is apologise for upsetting that person. Quite where all these Jeremy supporters deviated from this basic social contract honestly blows my mind. Are people really that mean-spirited?
his behaviour would be bad enough at a local game store, but the fact he has such a huge audience is what's causing the real problem here. There's a lot of nastiness coming out of the woodwork which is damaging the integrity of the community from the roots up. I want to be part of a relaxed, chill community where we can all enjoy the game and have a laugh. It's a bit of social fun, not a drama-fuelled minefield of hatred and insults, but Jeremy is hellbent on dragging everyone down to his sickening level. I'm frankly not having it, so i'm going to make a point of being extra awesome to everyone I play with at stores and tournaments from now on. Got to counteract the negativity with positivity. That's what we need more of.
I agree with Jeremy, and quite frankly find this thread a joke. The rules basically prevent any discussion that sides with what he said, which I believe makes this thread little more than an echo chamber.
So why do you agree with him, and what are you agreeing with in particular?
Fair question, and I am trying to answer in accordance with the thread's guidelines:
I watched the video by Sprankle months ago where she discussed how she was not paid to cosplay at major events. Her costumes, travel, lodging was all paid out of pocket, and that she was losing the ability to afford to do this. That is no one's fault but her own. Personally, I hate what Patreon has done, turning people into virtual panhandlers wanting their hobbies funded by strangers. And yes, that extends to Jeremy, who I do not support on Patreon. She began to cry, and all I could think was "this is not my problem." Jeremy took a very similar stance, while also making the claim that she was only getting support by way of being one of the few instances of a woman involved with MtG who may be considered cute by the general public. Personally, I agree with that too but realize it is only speculation. I think he's been critical, but nothing that I would consider harassment. The goalposts have been moved, I think too far, for where criticism and mockery becomes harassment. Everyone's emotions are within his or her control, barring illness or injury. If someone upsets me, which hell happens all the time, I'm mad for about five minutes then say "good thing it won't affect my physical safety or wallet" and move on. Too many people now get upset, then demand retribution that anyone dared be remotely mean.
I think the entire culture of "this person sent a hatemob after me" needs to end. People should be held accountable for their own actions. Anyone who made any sort of threat of violence is wrong, but the only person responsible in such a case is the person who sent the threat. It's easier to point to a content creator, because you know their face and name. Doesn't make it the correct move.
EDIT: I did not see purklefluff's comment. the correct response to someone being upset is not always to apologize if that emotional response isn't reasonable. Again, the goalposts culturally of reasonable emotional reactions is moving, and I don't think in a wise way.
I'm not sure how you derive an opinion like that from my post. My point wasn't about who started it.
We're not likely to benefit other women either, we're chasing our tails telling people who already respect women that disrespecting women isn't ok. It's like putting a lock on a walled door.
However, I've never seen anyone change their mind on the internet. The people who have the power to change things really are WOTC. If they take a less vague and more loud stand against Jeremy and his ilk, it will send a clear message of who isn't and who is welcome to the community.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
EDIT:
Example 1: He and other gets shadow blocked on facebook by WotC? Makes vile tweets about it and also makes a video demonizing them while playing the victim card.
Example 2: He gets banned from WotC's Twitch channel? (same result as example 1)
Example 3: He gets blocked by other members within the MTG community on social media websites? (same result as example 1)
Example 4: Someone in the MTG community tries to get their Patreon setup? (same result as example 1)
Example 5: A higher up from WotC directly calls him out on Twitter and does not want to associate with him or want him in the community? (same result as example 1)
I know I am missing other instances where he has done this tired song and dance. He honestly has a bad influence on members of the community.
I'm saying this without my mod hat (I don't even mod Magic General, so there's that) but no, you don't necessarily have to come to Christine's defense or attack Jeremy. What isn't tolerated however is glorifying, supporting or perpretrating any kind of abuse. Ergo, this thread is set up to discuss what happened. To think of ways to stop it. To inform people of what happened. So that people can see what exactly has been going on here.
It may seem like an echo chamber as a result. The problem is, if you don't preemptively cut off anything in support of any kind of abuse, you get situations like what happened over at Reddit, where the mods had to go on a banwave and a nuclear cleansing of the thread about the situation before allowing discussion again.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I see you don't like false equivalency, but you're clearly a fan of straw men.
I guess I'll tentatively trust you on this one, because I don't frequent Reddit, and while I really don't like how stifling the OP's rules are, I also don't think that anyone who would defend Jeremy would do so in any kind of polite manner. I'm still wary of group think in general, even when intentions are noble.
My 720 Peasant Cube
My 720 Peasant Cube
Dude you are getting baited by him. Like it said here in the thread. Ignore these people that abandoned reasons to fuel their ideologies.
This Jeremy guy has the right to disagreed with other people but the way he goes with it its jsut nasty. Why would you be sutch a nasty person to get your points crossed? I guess it gets the attention of mobs to support him, it worked for Trump din't it?(Disclaimer!!!I have no intention of starting a politiccal discussion, was jsut using an example.)
What we had was a decision to make: do we stifle all discussion, like we have in the past for contentious issues? No one is happy about that. Sometimes we lock threads to give a cool down period, and sometimes when it's obvious things will spin out of control or is beyond our ability to keep up with moderating. We don't like doing it just as much as you don't like having it done.
Do we allow open discussion on the issue? There are a lot of problems with that. The biggest one is that we give another platform for those who are not interested in debating in good faith. On some topics, that's a worthwhile risk, but is there really a "harassment is okay" side worth hearing out? Should we give a platform to those who just want to use it to further demean people? Other threads about this topic had disingenuous claims for 'more evidence' or otherwise repeated the same talking points, there really wouldn't be anything to say that hasn't been said a hundred times already. There's certainly a risk in never hearing the other side out, but part of the problem with harassment and toxicity in Magic is that the side not being heard is the harassed, especially when you've got loud voices claiming everything is copacetic.
So we set some groundrules. Really, really basic groundrules. If you can't make a cogent point without using "SJW", victim blaming, or ignoring the mountain of easily available evidence of harassment (at least in this one specific case), it's probably best that you are the one listening. You don't have to think Christine Sprankle is the greatest, you just can't malign her any further. We really want MTGS to be a community welcoming to all, and that hasn't always been the case. Our hope is that these ground rules will encourage people to participate who otherwise wouldn't because of the toxic mentalities. If you really think you have a strong point, but can't manage it without violating the above rules, you don't have the strong footing you think you do.
If you're interested in debating the merits of the groundrules, please remember that arguing moderator actions like this belong in the help deck for subforum, not in the thread itself.
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I watched that video already, most of it is just the "prof" asking him to be nicer. He softly implies that there's no reason to be so mean about things(which may or may not be true depending on the individual situation), and also addresses the issue of viewers going around and doing what they want on the internet while softly implying that he has a part in influencing his viewers into taking certain actions. This doesn't prove anything Jeremy did is actually wrong, and he doesn't even really formulate any line of reasoning. Since there's no argument in the video and just small implications, you're going to come up with your own reasoning. That being said, I know you don't have what it takes, and I've posted two too many in this forum.
If you can't take the fact you're wrong, it's no wonder you're all mediocre at the game you play... you have no idea how to learn and grow as individuals, and it shows since you prefer to be here making a massive circlejerk over something you don't understand. You demonstrate a clear inability to listen to what other people have to say and break it down into its basic components, which completely defeats the purpose of discussing or talking to other people to begin with.
Leave the thinking to the people who practice thinking, and go back to playing your card game. You're not good at something just because you can blab your mouths on and on like buffoons, and it's completely your fault for not being prepared for it. If you want to do some good in the world, start by doing a lot less talking a lot more thinking.
Because you don't care. And you don't care so much that you took the time to sign up for an account, and take two attempts at telling us how much you don't care.
Thanks, we certainly realize how far above it you are now.
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You are right that I am being baited, but this all goes back to whether or not silence is complicity. I'd like nothing more than to ignore them, but that can also equate to standing idle while others are abused. It's tough to reconcile, but ultimately, I don't think I can choose silence. I want to, though. I really do. I'd like for this kind of speech to fall on deaf ears, but it doesn't.
Regarding one slice of Jay13x's comment, though: when I've advocated for open discourse earlier in this thread, it's not that I believe pro-misogyny, pro-abuse opinions should be heard or validated, but one may argue that this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. There may be a cogent point in that line of thinking somewhere, maybe placing some of the blame on offense culture. I don't believe it's being blown out of proportion, nor do I believe that this is an example of offense culture run amok, but equating that viewpoint with Jeremy's nonsense isn't fair.
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I don't think so, at least in this particular case. I think a lot of people feel brave enough to speak up about the harassment they've received over the years, and it came to a head when someone very visible finally said enough is enough.
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When you should start to worry IMO is when those people have actual power or influence, and based on what I've read in this thread so far, this Jeremy guy has some of the latter.
Now, to the discussion: this hits a bit too close to home for me. Full disclosure, I didn't know who Sprankle was prior to this, because I don't follow cosplay (and particularly mtg related cosplay) very closely and live under a rcok. But I have faced issues in the past just attending my LGS. Definitely nothing on this scale, but generally anything from being treated like a novice player before they've seen me play, to some fairly degrading comments on my appearance. I'm sure that on the front of at least assumptions about my abilities to play, it wasn't intended to be as rude as it was, but no one should be made to feel an outsider or leave their hobby feeling awful. It's a hobby, and it's to the benefit of all of us that we have a broad audience so that the game can continue.
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I definitely do care, but unfortunately for you... not for the reason that your small brain was able to come up with. I didn't even know who Jeremy was up until today, and I really don't care moving forward, either. You are committing a crime far greater than having a stance on either side about who this Jeremy person is in this moment, and you seem to have no problem in doubling down on it. Even IF his actions can be put into criticism, the reasons you and your weak community have provided are completely fraudulent and a disgrace to humanity. In your best case scenario, you would be right for the wrong reasons. In your worst case scenario, you jumping off a cliff would be an improvement to your existence. I absolutely do have a problem with you polluting the world with the garbage you are spewing, which is insulting to both intelligence and sense itself. In fact, I care enough to waste my time with a bunch of losers like you who I can very clearly see are lost causes, banking on the 0.000001% that you're not already 6 feet underground to the rest of us who are living.
The truth speaks for itself, but villains like you don't stop by yourselves. You never stop until you are dead, that is why there's people like me whose greatest accomplishments go beyond "banned some guy who disagreed with me" on a forum. Feel free to say what you want about me, but what I represent can never be destroyed, you dumb piece of ***** admin. ROFL.
...makes no sense. These are the rants and ravings as someone who appears ill. If it's not that, this is either some next level trolling, or just a complete lack of self-awareness. I sincerely hope it's one of the latter two.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So why do you agree with him, and what are you agreeing with in particular?
so... genuinely, your stance is that harassment, personal attacks on people and hateful language inciting mob-trolling against groups of people and individuals is ok?
on what bizzaro-world do we live where people like you actually agree with this sort of behaviour?
to agree with Jeremy is to say this: I am ok with publicly insulting and inciting hate against people. Not only that, but when those people get upset, I won't apologise - I will insult them further. I will incite others to also join in the hate-train on these victims and then when (finally) the community calls me out, I will play the victim card and blame vague faceless (even political) loosely-defined social groups as if it's some great conspiracy against free speech or thought, and completely fail to address or understand the individual criticisms levelled against me. I will show no understanding of how vile and hateful i've been to other people, and I will self-excuse my behaviour in a way which shows borderline sociopathic tendencies.
that's what you're saying, right?
i mean, most toddlers understand that if you upset someone with a poorly-chosen statement or 'joke', the first thing to do is apologise for upsetting that person. Quite where all these Jeremy supporters deviated from this basic social contract honestly blows my mind. Are people really that mean-spirited?
his behaviour would be bad enough at a local game store, but the fact he has such a huge audience is what's causing the real problem here. There's a lot of nastiness coming out of the woodwork which is damaging the integrity of the community from the roots up. I want to be part of a relaxed, chill community where we can all enjoy the game and have a laugh. It's a bit of social fun, not a drama-fuelled minefield of hatred and insults, but Jeremy is hellbent on dragging everyone down to his sickening level. I'm frankly not having it, so i'm going to make a point of being extra awesome to everyone I play with at stores and tournaments from now on. Got to counteract the negativity with positivity. That's what we need more of.
Fair question, and I am trying to answer in accordance with the thread's guidelines:
I watched the video by Sprankle months ago where she discussed how she was not paid to cosplay at major events. Her costumes, travel, lodging was all paid out of pocket, and that she was losing the ability to afford to do this. That is no one's fault but her own. Personally, I hate what Patreon has done, turning people into virtual panhandlers wanting their hobbies funded by strangers. And yes, that extends to Jeremy, who I do not support on Patreon. She began to cry, and all I could think was "this is not my problem." Jeremy took a very similar stance, while also making the claim that she was only getting support by way of being one of the few instances of a woman involved with MtG who may be considered cute by the general public. Personally, I agree with that too but realize it is only speculation. I think he's been critical, but nothing that I would consider harassment. The goalposts have been moved, I think too far, for where criticism and mockery becomes harassment. Everyone's emotions are within his or her control, barring illness or injury. If someone upsets me, which hell happens all the time, I'm mad for about five minutes then say "good thing it won't affect my physical safety or wallet" and move on. Too many people now get upset, then demand retribution that anyone dared be remotely mean.
I think the entire culture of "this person sent a hatemob after me" needs to end. People should be held accountable for their own actions. Anyone who made any sort of threat of violence is wrong, but the only person responsible in such a case is the person who sent the threat. It's easier to point to a content creator, because you know their face and name. Doesn't make it the correct move.
EDIT: I did not see purklefluff's comment. the correct response to someone being upset is not always to apologize if that emotional response isn't reasonable. Again, the goalposts culturally of reasonable emotional reactions is moving, and I don't think in a wise way.