Then you acted shocked that people act certain ways after you cut off all legitimate discussion?
You can't say *****, **** or ********, it gets automatically censored. And yet we can hold discussions. (I'll let you figure out what the stars are hiding.)
The very few terms and subjects forbidden do not preclude discussion. They only preclude useless flaming, trolling and provocations. It's been explained repeatedly in this thread.
If you can't discuss without resorting to those few words and subjects, then the rationale WORKED.
Yes its unabashed newspeak, we will make it impossible to dissent because we will forbid people from using terms or they will get banned/warned.
And this never goes the way they want it to.
This dude from near as I can tell thrives off of being seen as a rebel against the perceived "tyranny" of Wizards of the Coast, this will only further cement his schtick.
And by quashing debate and discourse its going to push people who might not like what the guy stands for but dislike the heavy handed approach being taken to be on his side.
Yes its unabashed newspeak, we will make it impossible to dissent because we will forbid people from using terms or they will get banned/warned.
Until you have a coherent argument why it's impossible to dissent for the lack of a few words that are mere insults, you have not proven a single thing.
- You can talk about people defending Christine without using the S-acronym.
- You can talk about the situation without blaming Christine for having been attacked.
- You can talk about Jeremy without pretending that he's not constantly attacking others with baseless accusations and flaming insults.
It's not hard.
If these simple rules "push you on his side", I don't think you needed a hard shove.
Yes its unabashed newspeak, we will make it impossible to dissent because we will forbid people from using terms or they will get banned/warned.
Until you have a coherent argument why it's impossible to dissent for the lack of a few words that are mere insults, you have not proven a single thing.
- You can talk about people defending Christine without using the S-acronym.
- You can talk about the situation without blaming Christine for having been attacked.
- You can talk about Jeremy without pretending that he's not constantly attacking others with baseless accusations and flaming insults.
It's not hard.
If these simple rules "push you on his side", I don't think you needed a hard shove.
Names on the lists of pros have been guilty of unsportmanlike conduct and the fact that people being video tapped against their will and mocked online isnt garnering the same level of concern leads me to the conclusion that at best the people defending Christine are naive and at worst using it as a way to increase their own importance/ego. So instead of using an acronym Ill just type it out longer, will see if thats considered flaming.
In a hypothetical situation where two people were attacking each other online if both sides are participating in it, then there is no moral clarity.
Now when the conversation is moderated to only assume the innocence of one of two parties it impossible to even find out if what is true because your only hearing one side.
But again the point is to make the hoops one needs to discuss the topic so difficult that anyone who is willing to take a more rationale and skeptical stance becomes discouraged from even participating.
Names on the lists of pros have been guilty of unsportmanlike conduct and the fact that people being video tapped against their will and mocked online isnt garnering the same level of concern leads me to the conclusion that at best the people defending Christine are naive and at worst using it as a way to increase their own importance/ego. So instead of using an acronym Ill just type it out longer, will see if thats considered flaming.
It might help if you cite some of the examples you are referring to and put a name to them. Defending Christine S. is easy because she didn't pick a fight with anyone as far as I can tell. You may be right that there are other situations that should merit outrage, and maybe this continues to explode and we have a situation like what is happening with sexual harassment in the media now with a bunch of allegations and crumbling of reputations. However that other evils are overlooked doesn't make the noticed evil acceptable.
Now when the conversation is moderated to only assume the innocence of one of two parties it impossible to even find out if what is true because your only hearing one side.
But again the point is to make the hoops one needs to discuss the topic so difficult that anyone who is willing to take a more rationale and skeptical stance becomes discouraged from even participating.
Agreed that it makes it difficult, but I haven't even seen anything on non-moderated sites that indicate this was anything but one sided. Jeremy is proud that he starts trouble and doesn't seem to back down from that.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game. That sucks, and I think approaching such people and suggesting to them that they change whatever it is they are doing would help everyone. If they are really obstinate and refuse to change then at least standing up to them will make someone feel less alone, and maybe they'll feel some pressure to change over time.
The benefits of this approach are many I think. Everyone is treated with respect, everyone gets a chance to change what they're doing that's bothering someone else, and everyone can actually do it in real life.
Names on the lists of pros have been guilty of unsportmanlike conduct and the fact that people being video tapped against their will and mocked online isnt garnering the same level of concern leads me to the conclusion that at best the people defending Christine are naive and at worst using it as a way to increase their own importance/ego. So instead of using an acronym Ill just type it out longer, will see if thats considered flaming.
It might help if you cite some of the examples you are referring to and put a name to them. Defending Christine S. is easy because she didn't pick a fight with anyone as far as I can tell. You may be right that there are other situations that should merit outrage, and maybe this continues to explode and we have a situation like what is happening with sexual harassment in the media now with a bunch of allegations and crumbling of reputations. However that other evils are overlooked doesn't make the noticed evil acceptable.
Now when the conversation is moderated to only assume the innocence of one of two parties it impossible to even find out if what is true because your only hearing one side.
But again the point is to make the hoops one needs to discuss the topic so difficult that anyone who is willing to take a more rationale and skeptical stance becomes discouraged from even participating.
Agreed that it makes it difficult, but I haven't even seen anything on non-moderated sites that indicate this was anything but one sided. Jeremy is proud that he starts trouble and doesn't seem to back down from that.
Eric Froelich comes off the top my head.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
Christine did have problems, too. There is a difference between her problem and Jeremy's, though, so no one should worry about wizards doing anything harmful to her. It's like a car accident: if you hit the guy ahead of you, your at fault. Christine didn't hit the person ahead of her, she got rear ended. Now that may have pushed her into someone, but then legally it all chains down to the one who started the pile up to begin with.
Jeremy is in trouble and is now being the guy that drove away with someone snapping a picture of his license plate. I'm not going to say he is the absolute source of this, but he isn't making a good case right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WOTC said that any harassment made by the followers of a person puts responsibility on the person, not the individual follower. I think this is stupid.
Here's the question though, would Jeremy's followers decided to harrass Wedge, Prof, Christine, anyone else, without his urging? There is evidence of him asking his followers to ask Wedge personally embarrassing questions in a very public forum. This along with his other behaviour doesn't make it a stretch to believe he has done something similar to his other targets. Especially with his private Facebook collective.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game. That sucks, and I think approaching such people and suggesting to them that they change whatever it is they are doing would help everyone. If they are really obstinate and refuse to change then at least standing up to them will make someone feel less alone, and maybe they'll feel some pressure to change over time.
The solution to this is clear. You call the judge (even at your local LGS) and report the behavior. If I'm at the table next to someone verbally harassing ANYONE, I call the judge and report it. JUST LIKE CHEATING. If the store doesn't take care of it, whether I'm the target or not, I'm not going to play there anymore. They are responsible to keep a safe/good environment for their customers.
I know my local store will not tolerate abusive behavior or cheating and you use the system to weed out the flak. Unfortunately it takes diligence and usually repeated reports to really get someone removed but once on alert the judges and your fellow players will help keep people honest/respectful or help get them gone.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game. That sucks, and I think approaching such people and suggesting to them that they change whatever it is they are doing would help everyone. If they are really obstinate and refuse to change then at least standing up to them will make someone feel less alone, and maybe they'll feel some pressure to change over time.
The solution to this is clear. You call the judge (even at your local LGS) and report the behavior. If I'm at the table next to someone verbally harassing ANYONE, I call the judge and report it. JUST LIKE CHEATING. If the store doesn't take care of it, whether I'm the target or not, I'm not going to play there anymore. They are responsible to keep a safe/good environment for their customers.
I know my local store will not tolerate abusive behavior or cheating and you use the system to weed out the flak. Unfortunately it takes diligence and usually repeated reports to really get someone removed but once on alert the judges and your fellow players will help keep people honest/respectful or help get them gone.
I didn't know you could report cheating or bad behavior. I need to get out more.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
The fundamental problem with rightist personalities in the modern day is that they have pushed the concept of being an intentional ass as a fundamental tennet of their ideology. Jeremy revels in being an insulting troll who makes rape jokes. He full admits to being an edgelord who intentionally trolls people for the lulz. Why should thos behavior be rewarded?
There are plenty of calm, rational conservative personalities out there. They get eclipsed, however, by people like Jeremy whom intentionally inflame situations and people. It should be no small wonder to any reasonable person, regardless of political leaning, why Jeremy is not supported. It has little to do with his message, and everything to do with his tactics amd approach. Perhaps if edgelords would support the calm, rational sorts instead of people like Jeremy, you would see a bit of a different relationship emerge.
Even still, Wizards has no obligation to give abyone a platform, or associate themselves with any specific person. Wizards wamts to present themselves as being inclusive, and are trying to shed the nerd stereotype. In what world would any organization trying to do that associate themselves with someone whom loudly, and angrily, bemoans this as destroying the game, and how representing females on a card is destroying the game, or calls other content creators prostitutes? Hell, in what world would any company or organization freely associate and prop up someone whom actively despises your current direction, and spews crap constantly about it?
It is asinine to think Wizards should associate with him. We do not reward the Eric Cartmans of the world for being Eric Cartman. Eric Cartman isn't hated because people are jealous of him or disagree with him. Eric Cartman is hated because hr is a whiny brat whom intentionally makes other peoples lives miserable. If you intentionally make other people's lives moserable for the sake of making them miserable, you should not be surprised when others want nothing to do with you.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game.
Yeah see, I feel like this is very problematic. You've NEVER played magic in a public environment, and yet you're already assuming based on what people have said on the internet that it's a cesspool of misogyny. Are there bad apples? Sure, but in my experience they're pretty far between - and they're way more likely to be well-meaning awkward idiots than intentionally hateful. And giving random people on the internet carte blanche to go "defend women's honor" is going to result in some major-league cringe-fests that are probably a lot more painful than someone being slightly condescending or whatever. Not that you can't tastefully stick up for someone if you feel someone is being treated unfairly, but if there's a problem the magic community has, it's more likely to be awkward social stupidity than it is misogyny (and I include myself in being an awkward idiot as well, btw) and recommend people go play white-knight is more likely to result in more pain rather than less.
Long story short, I'd recommend you actually make an effort to have more than zero experience before making broad generalizations or advocating for vigilante justice.
Discretely calling a judge if you think something steps over the line into harassment seems like the best policy - I still imagine it will generate plenty of cringe, but at least you have an impartial observer, and if they are in fact behaving badly they can be removed from the store, instead of just getting defensive, making everyone uncomfortable, and accomplishing nothing.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
The fundamental problem with rightist personalities in the modern day is that they have pushed the concept of being an intentional ass as a fundamental tennet of their ideology. Jeremy revels in being an insulting troll who makes rape jokes. He full admits to being an edgelord who intentionally trolls people for the lulz. Why should thos behavior be rewarded?
There are plenty of calm, rational conservative personalities out there. They get eclipsed, however, by people like Jeremy whom intentionally inflame situations and people. It should be no small wonder to any reasonable person, regardless of political leaning, why Jeremy is not supported. It has little to do with his message, and everything to do with his tactics amd approach.
Even still, Wizards has no obligation to give abyone a platform, or associate themselves with any specific person. Wizards wamts to present themselves as being inclusive, and are trying to shed the nerd stereotype. In what world would any organization trying to do that associate themselves with someone whom loudly, and angrily, bemoans this as destroying the game, and how representing females on a card is destroying the game, or calls other content creators prostitutes? Hell, in what world would any company or organization freely associate and prop up someone whom actively despises your current direction, and spews crap constantly about it?
It is asinine to think Wizards should associate with him. We do not reward the Eric Cartmans of the world for being Eric Cartman. Eric Cartman isn't hated because people are jealous of him or disagree with him. Eric Cartman is hated because hr is a whiny brat whom intentionally makes other peoples lives miserable.
Can you name someone who is on the right that is a well known person in magic?
Because Wizards of the Coast is pretty blatantly on the left end of the spectrum and a lot of its people and "personalities" arent afraid to flaunt it.
I do think part of what is going on is people are circling the wagons because as far as I know this guy is the only "prominate" right leaning one out there, and I barely mean prominent, hes not endorsed and all he does is open boxes of magic cards from what I have seen (which I dont get the appeal of honestly).
It looks like Jeremy's harassments are mostly from his followers that took his stuff to an extreme.
Seriouslly from what i saw, so many content producers of Magic gonig against Jeremy while they have proof(like The Professor's video) i just can't see how you can defend Jeremy and his actions. His clickbait videos and "Just a Joke" tweets were taken serouslly by his followers and he doesn't feel remorse or at al responsible from this.
Christine did have problems, too. There is a difference between her problem and Jeremy's, though, so no one should worry about wizards doing anything harmful to her. It's like a car accident: if you hit the guy ahead of you, your at fault. Christine didn't hit the person ahead of her, she got rear ended. Now that may have pushed her into someone, but then legally it all chains down to the one who started the pile up to begin with.
Jeremy is in trouble and is now being the guy that drove away with someone snapping a picture of his license plate. I'm not going to say he is the absolute source of this, but he isn't making a good case right now.
Where I'm from, in a multi car accident, if someone hits you, and as a result, you hit someone else, you will be at fault, unless there is a witness. The one who started it has to pay for damages to his front and your rear, and you have to pay damages to your front and third person's rear.
I remember it being like this because I had a feeling of "this is bullcrap. Why should I pay for damages to the person in front of me if the person behind me caused it."
It doesn't have to be rear ends. Someone can run a red light, hit you as you cross, and you hit someone in the next lane. You have to pay damages to next lane guy.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game.
Yeah see, I feel like this is very problematic. You've NEVER played magic in a public environment, and yet you're already assuming based on what people have said on the internet that it's a cesspool of misogyny. Are there bad apples? Sure, but in my experience they're pretty far between - and they're way more likely to be well-meaning awkward idiots than intentionally hateful. And giving random people on the internet carte blanche to go "defend women's honor" is going to result in some major-league cringe-fests that are probably a lot more painful than someone being slightly condescending or whatever. Not that you can't tastefully stick up for someone if you feel someone is being treated unfairly, but if there's a problem the magic community has, it's more likely to be awkward social stupidity than it is misogyny (and I include myself in being an awkward idiot as well, btw).
Long story short, I'd recommend you actually make an effort to have more than zero experience before making broad generalizations or advocating for vigilante justice.
Calling a judge if you think something steps over the line into harassment seems like the best policy - I still imagine it will generate plenty of cringe, but at least you have an impartial observer, and if they are in fact behaving badly they can be removed from the store, instead of just getting defensive, making everyone uncomfortable, and accomplishing nothing.
What a dramatic interpretation of what I said. I never said there was a cesspool of misogyny. I never said anything referencing vigilante justice. Some of what you're saying is the very reason why I didn't say those things.
What a dramatic interpretation of what I said. I never said there was a cesspool of misogyny. I never said anything referencing vigilante justice. Some of what you're saying is the very reason why I didn't say those things.
I exaggerated what you said a bit, but you're still saying that many players (none of whom you've ever witnessed personally) are rude to women, and you're suggesting people take it into their own hands to resolve the situation. Without any personal experience whatsoever.
My complaints are twofold with this.
#1 I disagree pretty strongly that magic is especially bad to women relative to other things, and it bothers me that people are putting that story in peoples' heads mostly based off online interaction when most in-person interaction I've witnessed doesn't have that problem. The internet is full of harassment, everyone knows that. That's an internet problem, not a magic problem. The magic problem is that we're mostly awkward nerds. And there's not really an easy solution for that one.
#2 If you're not at all familiar with the problem, or even whether it really exists (in-person, not online), I'd maybe hold off on condemning the community or suggesting solutions.
Oh, and #3. You should go play in person. It's way more fun than online. Not really related to the topic, though.
I've never played magic in a public environment, but from what I've heard there are a lot of players who say inappropriate, rude, or nasty things to women who play the game.
Yeah see, I feel like this is very problematic. You've NEVER played magic in a public environment, and yet you're already assuming based on what people have said on the internet that it's a cesspool of misogyny. Are there bad apples? Sure, but in my experience they're pretty far between - and they're way more likely to be well-meaning awkward idiots than intentionally hateful. And giving random people on the internet carte blanche to go "defend women's honor" is going to result in some major-league cringe-fests that are probably a lot more painful than someone being slightly condescending or whatever. Not that you can't tastefully stick up for someone if you feel someone is being treated unfairly, but if there's a problem the magic community has, it's more likely to be awkward social stupidity than it is misogyny (and I include myself in being an awkward idiot as well, btw) and recommend people go play white-knight is more likely to result in more pain rather than less.
Long story short, I'd recommend you actually make an effort to have more than zero experience before making broad generalizations or advocating for vigilante justice.
Discretely calling a judge if you think something steps over the line into harassment seems like the best policy - I still imagine it will generate plenty of cringe, but at least you have an impartial observer, and if they are in fact behaving badly they can be removed from the store, instead of just getting defensive, making everyone uncomfortable, and accomplishing nothing.
I travel a lot for work, from Chile to Canada, and I have never had or witnessed a problem at a LGS other than certain people's body odor.
But that doesn't promote a witch hunt, does it?
This may also tie into the lowering number of players and why some people are so deffensive. If you as LGS furniture have never misbehaved or witnessed bad behavior despite being there longer than most employees, but still hear people complaining that the community is toxic and women are harassed everywhere and things have to change. You may start believing they're talking about you and chastising you for just being there and not being a neon-haired shrieking harpy that spouts cultural-marxism as dogma (which I have witnessed, unlike the batlant sexism and harassment).
If I was a meek nerd who's been chased away from society by bullies, and suddenly this ***** started happening in my "safe space", I'd be pretty on edge and confrontationally sceptic too.
Can you name someone who is on the right that is a well known person in magic?
Because Wizards of the Coast is pretty blatantly on the left end of the spectrum and a lot of its people and "personalities" arent afraid to flaunt it.
I do think part of what is going on is people are circling the wagons because as far as I know this guy is the only "prominate" right leaning one out there, and I barely mean prominent, hes not endorsed and all he does is open boxes of magic cards from what I have seen (which I dont get the appeal of honestly).
Rudy is pretty AnCap, and Kevin from Rogue Deckbuilder is shoved into the right just by virtue of being a victim of "listen and believe" and having studied divergent mental disorders.
We don't know if many others may be right-leaning, because being right doesn't mean hating "the geys, browns and wimmins". It means believing in self-effecting hierarchies and the natural occurrence of social differences. It doesn't even mean that you have to support such occurrences, just that you refuse to deny their existance by claiming them to be "social constructs" and don't believe giving the government more power to force equality against people's own capabilities and willingness to apply them is a good idea. And since this isn't inherently objectionable (yet) you're often assumed to be left-leaning unless you're a racist, sexist or homophobe because we're coming off 8 years of radicalized american left wherein being right-leaning must mean being vile.
If things go right, by the end of Trump's circus calling someone a racist/sexist/homophobe/sexual predator/etc. without proof and a willingness to involve judiciary (instead of trying to force character-assassination through social media without proof of misconduct) will be considered as vile as being a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc.
Public Mod Note
(Wildfire393):
Just substituting "Cultural Marxism" for SJW doesn't magically make it okay. You're going to have to stop blaming leftist boogeymen for the fact that this harassment is clearly happening on a large scale.
I don't follow any of these people but I just found it funny how people asked for evidence of harrasement and people keep bringing up stuff completely unrelated to this incident. As far as I can tell the alleged ''harrassement'' happened 6 months ago. Where he basically called her out as what she is, being a cosplayer who gets money from sad people. Although admittedly the tone he used was very condescending, and the comments about her looks were inapropriate. From what I've seen the guy is basically a huge retard, and ideally everyone would just ignore him, but no we need to give him attention.
Why wait 6 months for this? As someone already pointed out her patreon money was dwindling, and according to this tweet her boyfriend dumped her. Not sure if true, but together with the Patreon numbers certainly does explain why the outrage happened now. A mad, sad and bored girl decided she needed to stir some fake drama up because she wanted attention.
What is even funnier is the outrage surrounding this event. Instead of just ignoring this, people have been blowing everything out of proportion. Maybe Mtg HQ would slowly die off, and the cosplayer girl would leave the community. Maybe they both would have gotten real jobs. But now both will probably gain a boost in viewership/finances. The girl will move on to cosplaying something like Overwatch, where she will be able to get even more money for showing off her skin (muh art!), and the guy will get an all around boost in his followers/subscribers/viewers/donators and continue being an absolute retard. Only in Murrica.
Also what's up with all the ''muh misoginy and toxic community'' comments? I've never seen a woman treated badly or harrassed while attending events. Or is talking to a woman considered harrassement? But then again, I do not live in (((the greatest country in the world))) and the mtg players here aren't exactly obese neckbeards.
Women will simply never become a sizeable part of mtg. Not because of harrassement or toxicity, it just isn't interesting to them, and that's fine.
Ok now I agree that this thread is political-minded censorship and doomed to fail. There is no "leftist boogeymen" or "right-wing boogeymen", there's only individuals that benefit from the use of these monickers to dehumanize and disqualify people and opinions they don't like. And the mods are participating of such vile behavior by refusing to aknowledge the experiences of people that don't agree with their postulations just because they imply the existance of left-leaning scaremongers who damage the community as much as any other harassers and discriminators, because ultimatedly that's what they are: harassers and discriminators.
Right and Left have nothing nothing
to do with sexual/online harassment being OK or not.
Politics has nothing to do with harassment being ok or not.
Every community should protect itself from abusive people and have rules/a system to adjudicate.
It's not ok.
The only people who claim anyone is justifying harassment are the ones putting words on other people's mouths so they can silence dissenting opinions. Pretending Jeremy didn't target Christine purposedly and knowing the left's usual ham-handed white knighting would make his channel explode in views is being intellectually dishonest for the sake of stifling possible discussion about the far-left's cult-like antics being not only harassment in themselves, but ineffective and only serving to exacerbate problems which affects us all.
On the topic of calling out harassment where it exists in the community, I've seen a petition made which aims to feed back to Patreon with a chunk of evidence of Jeremy's behaviours, and effectively 'de-fund the hate'.
I think as a balanced response to his behaviour, this is probably where we want to be? It's not fighting hate with hate, it's not yet another personal, demeaning attack. It's just passing on evidence of his misdeeds to the organisation who facilitates him profiting off all of this. If Patreon considers his behaviour wrongful (I sincerely hope they do) then he'll have got a strong message from the community without anyone actually throwing an insult or threat back at him, which is positive.
The proper course of action should have been Christine suing Jeremy for damages, not the public going after Jeremy for her and the rest of the MTG youtube community blowing up and turning this into a grand social mudslinging contest that got even WoTC and potentially any company hosting sponsorships involved.
That's nice in theory, but do you know why very few people pursue lawsuits over these things in practice? Whether its slander, harassment, and other behaviors?
1) Its expensive, and the damages are often too small to actually pay for the lawyers fees. Assuming that you even win the lawsuit.
2) It takes a lot of time and effort. The time part is partially by design to ensure thoroughness, but it can mean that by the time a problem has been resolved its no longer relevant anymore. Sometimes the person bringing up the lawsuit can even go bankrupt, oftentimes because of the very thing they are suing for. And given the low payout, the effort is often not worth the time and money unless you are rich to begin with.
3) Courtroom drama can cause more harm while the case is being heard. In fact, that is why some forms of abuse and harassment are criminal matters in the first place, while the other reason is because of the sheer degree of harm. Also, any time threats of violence or incitement to violence happens the authorities can and will treat it as a criminal matter.
Meanwhile, public shaming and other action has an immediate effect, it has the power to enforce norms that are beyond the powers of the court by design (there is a threshold to the level of dickery we want the government to step in and stop), and it protects those who can't afford to take things to court or lack the mental and emotional energy to do so. That's why companies like Patreon have terms of service, and the ability to enforce them should a problem be brought to their attention. I haven't looked at Patreon's TOS, so I don't know whether they will take action, but I do not see anything improper with people bringing it up with them and asking if they can do something about Jeremy. That's precisely the kind of thing Wizards itself has asked us to do about abuse on social media. The only difference being that on Patreon, money is involved. But then, the same is true in court.
Right and Left have nothing nothing
to do with sexual/online harassment being OK or not.
Politics has nothing to do with harassment being ok or not.
Every community should protect itself from abusive people and have rules/a system to adjudicate.
It's not ok.
In other words:
You are allowed your opinions.
You are allowed to voice your opinions.
If you decide tuat the best means of voicing your opinion is to be a complete childish ***, do not be surprised when people treat you like a complete childish ***. You are not being persecuted for political beliefs, you are being put in a corner because you are a child who cannot act like an adult.
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Yes its unabashed newspeak, we will make it impossible to dissent because we will forbid people from using terms or they will get banned/warned.
And this never goes the way they want it to.
This dude from near as I can tell thrives off of being seen as a rebel against the perceived "tyranny" of Wizards of the Coast, this will only further cement his schtick.
And by quashing debate and discourse its going to push people who might not like what the guy stands for but dislike the heavy handed approach being taken to be on his side.
Until you have a coherent argument why it's impossible to dissent for the lack of a few words that are mere insults, you have not proven a single thing.
- You can talk about people defending Christine without using the S-acronym.
- You can talk about the situation without blaming Christine for having been attacked.
- You can talk about Jeremy without pretending that he's not constantly attacking others with baseless accusations and flaming insults.
It's not hard.
If these simple rules "push you on his side", I don't think you needed a hard shove.
Names on the lists of pros have been guilty of unsportmanlike conduct and the fact that people being video tapped against their will and mocked online isnt garnering the same level of concern leads me to the conclusion that at best the people defending Christine are naive and at worst using it as a way to increase their own importance/ego. So instead of using an acronym Ill just type it out longer, will see if thats considered flaming.
In a hypothetical situation where two people were attacking each other online if both sides are participating in it, then there is no moral clarity.
Now when the conversation is moderated to only assume the innocence of one of two parties it impossible to even find out if what is true because your only hearing one side.
But again the point is to make the hoops one needs to discuss the topic so difficult that anyone who is willing to take a more rationale and skeptical stance becomes discouraged from even participating.
It might help if you cite some of the examples you are referring to and put a name to them. Defending Christine S. is easy because she didn't pick a fight with anyone as far as I can tell. You may be right that there are other situations that should merit outrage, and maybe this continues to explode and we have a situation like what is happening with sexual harassment in the media now with a bunch of allegations and crumbling of reputations. However that other evils are overlooked doesn't make the noticed evil acceptable.
Agreed that it makes it difficult, but I haven't even seen anything on non-moderated sites that indicate this was anything but one sided. Jeremy is proud that he starts trouble and doesn't seem to back down from that.
The benefits of this approach are many I think. Everyone is treated with respect, everyone gets a chance to change what they're doing that's bothering someone else, and everyone can actually do it in real life.
Eric Froelich comes off the top my head.
Supposedly people were messing with the guys patreon and facebook, its hard to tell especially when its clear the conversation is only allowed to flow to one conclusion.
Eric Froelich is the only one I could think of as well, but as I understand it he has at least admitted he was being an *** and implied he would be stopping. Granted, an adult never would have been in a situation where you needed to admit, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and if he does it again after he took a stance here he should get ripped apart by the community. Honestly, I would be shocked if people aren't going to keep an eye on Eric going forward, on both sides. Schadenfreude is totally a thing.
The fact that he thinks he should be a member of the star chamber shows very little self awareness IMO.
I think a lot of the reaction has to do with partisanship, I cant think of any magic "personalities" endorsed by WotC or pros that wear their rightist political leanings on their sleeve but I can think of a lot on the left, can you?
Jeremy is in trouble and is now being the guy that drove away with someone snapping a picture of his license plate. I'm not going to say he is the absolute source of this, but he isn't making a good case right now.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Here's the question though, would Jeremy's followers decided to harrass Wedge, Prof, Christine, anyone else, without his urging? There is evidence of him asking his followers to ask Wedge personally embarrassing questions in a very public forum. This along with his other behaviour doesn't make it a stretch to believe he has done something similar to his other targets. Especially with his private Facebook collective.
The solution to this is clear. You call the judge (even at your local LGS) and report the behavior. If I'm at the table next to someone verbally harassing ANYONE, I call the judge and report it. JUST LIKE CHEATING. If the store doesn't take care of it, whether I'm the target or not, I'm not going to play there anymore. They are responsible to keep a safe/good environment for their customers.
I know my local store will not tolerate abusive behavior or cheating and you use the system to weed out the flak. Unfortunately it takes diligence and usually repeated reports to really get someone removed but once on alert the judges and your fellow players will help keep people honest/respectful or help get them gone.
I didn't know you could report cheating or bad behavior. I need to get out more.
The fundamental problem with rightist personalities in the modern day is that they have pushed the concept of being an intentional ass as a fundamental tennet of their ideology. Jeremy revels in being an insulting troll who makes rape jokes. He full admits to being an edgelord who intentionally trolls people for the lulz. Why should thos behavior be rewarded?
There are plenty of calm, rational conservative personalities out there. They get eclipsed, however, by people like Jeremy whom intentionally inflame situations and people. It should be no small wonder to any reasonable person, regardless of political leaning, why Jeremy is not supported. It has little to do with his message, and everything to do with his tactics amd approach. Perhaps if edgelords would support the calm, rational sorts instead of people like Jeremy, you would see a bit of a different relationship emerge.
Even still, Wizards has no obligation to give abyone a platform, or associate themselves with any specific person. Wizards wamts to present themselves as being inclusive, and are trying to shed the nerd stereotype. In what world would any organization trying to do that associate themselves with someone whom loudly, and angrily, bemoans this as destroying the game, and how representing females on a card is destroying the game, or calls other content creators prostitutes? Hell, in what world would any company or organization freely associate and prop up someone whom actively despises your current direction, and spews crap constantly about it?
It is asinine to think Wizards should associate with him. We do not reward the Eric Cartmans of the world for being Eric Cartman. Eric Cartman isn't hated because people are jealous of him or disagree with him. Eric Cartman is hated because hr is a whiny brat whom intentionally makes other peoples lives miserable. If you intentionally make other people's lives moserable for the sake of making them miserable, you should not be surprised when others want nothing to do with you.
Long story short, I'd recommend you actually make an effort to have more than zero experience before making broad generalizations or advocating for vigilante justice.
Discretely calling a judge if you think something steps over the line into harassment seems like the best policy - I still imagine it will generate plenty of cringe, but at least you have an impartial observer, and if they are in fact behaving badly they can be removed from the store, instead of just getting defensive, making everyone uncomfortable, and accomplishing nothing.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Can you name someone who is on the right that is a well known person in magic?
Because Wizards of the Coast is pretty blatantly on the left end of the spectrum and a lot of its people and "personalities" arent afraid to flaunt it.
I do think part of what is going on is people are circling the wagons because as far as I know this guy is the only "prominate" right leaning one out there, and I barely mean prominent, hes not endorsed and all he does is open boxes of magic cards from what I have seen (which I dont get the appeal of honestly).
It looks like Jeremy's harassments are mostly from his followers that took his stuff to an extreme.
Seriouslly from what i saw, so many content producers of Magic gonig against Jeremy while they have proof(like The Professor's video) i just can't see how you can defend Jeremy and his actions. His clickbait videos and "Just a Joke" tweets were taken serouslly by his followers and he doesn't feel remorse or at al responsible from this.
Where I'm from, in a multi car accident, if someone hits you, and as a result, you hit someone else, you will be at fault, unless there is a witness. The one who started it has to pay for damages to his front and your rear, and you have to pay damages to your front and third person's rear.
I remember it being like this because I had a feeling of "this is bullcrap. Why should I pay for damages to the person in front of me if the person behind me caused it."
It doesn't have to be rear ends. Someone can run a red light, hit you as you cross, and you hit someone in the next lane. You have to pay damages to next lane guy.
What a dramatic interpretation of what I said. I never said there was a cesspool of misogyny. I never said anything referencing vigilante justice. Some of what you're saying is the very reason why I didn't say those things.
My complaints are twofold with this.
#1 I disagree pretty strongly that magic is especially bad to women relative to other things, and it bothers me that people are putting that story in peoples' heads mostly based off online interaction when most in-person interaction I've witnessed doesn't have that problem. The internet is full of harassment, everyone knows that. That's an internet problem, not a magic problem. The magic problem is that we're mostly awkward nerds. And there's not really an easy solution for that one.
#2 If you're not at all familiar with the problem, or even whether it really exists (in-person, not online), I'd maybe hold off on condemning the community or suggesting solutions.
Oh, and #3. You should go play in person. It's way more fun than online. Not really related to the topic, though.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I travel a lot for work, from Chile to Canada, and I have never had or witnessed a problem at a LGS other than certain people's body odor.
But that doesn't promote a witch hunt, does it?
This may also tie into the lowering number of players and why some people are so deffensive. If you as LGS furniture have never misbehaved or witnessed bad behavior despite being there longer than most employees, but still hear people complaining that the community is toxic and women are harassed everywhere and things have to change. You may start believing they're talking about you and chastising you for just being there and not being a neon-haired shrieking harpy that spouts cultural-marxism as dogma (which I have witnessed, unlike the batlant sexism and harassment).
If I was a meek nerd who's been chased away from society by bullies, and suddenly this ***** started happening in my "safe space", I'd be pretty on edge and confrontationally sceptic too.
Rudy is pretty AnCap, and Kevin from Rogue Deckbuilder is shoved into the right just by virtue of being a victim of "listen and believe" and having studied divergent mental disorders.
We don't know if many others may be right-leaning, because being right doesn't mean hating "the geys, browns and wimmins". It means believing in self-effecting hierarchies and the natural occurrence of social differences. It doesn't even mean that you have to support such occurrences, just that you refuse to deny their existance by claiming them to be "social constructs" and don't believe giving the government more power to force equality against people's own capabilities and willingness to apply them is a good idea. And since this isn't inherently objectionable (yet) you're often assumed to be left-leaning unless you're a racist, sexist or homophobe because we're coming off 8 years of radicalized american left wherein being right-leaning must mean being vile.
If things go right, by the end of Trump's circus calling someone a racist/sexist/homophobe/sexual predator/etc. without proof and a willingness to involve judiciary (instead of trying to force character-assassination through social media without proof of misconduct) will be considered as vile as being a racist/sexist/homophobe/etc.
nothing
to do with sexual/online harassment being OK or not.
Politics has nothing to do with harassment being ok or not.
Every community should protect itself from abusive people and have rules/a system to adjudicate.
It's not ok.
Why wait 6 months for this? As someone already pointed out her patreon money was dwindling, and according to this tweet her boyfriend dumped her. Not sure if true, but together with the Patreon numbers certainly does explain why the outrage happened now. A mad, sad and bored girl decided she needed to stir some fake drama up because she wanted attention.
What is even funnier is the outrage surrounding this event. Instead of just ignoring this, people have been blowing everything out of proportion. Maybe Mtg HQ would slowly die off, and the cosplayer girl would leave the community. Maybe they both would have gotten real jobs. But now both will probably gain a boost in viewership/finances. The girl will move on to cosplaying something like Overwatch, where she will be able to get even more money for showing off her skin (muh art!), and the guy will get an all around boost in his followers/subscribers/viewers/donators and continue being an absolute retard. Only in Murrica.
Also what's up with all the ''muh misoginy and toxic community'' comments? I've never seen a woman treated badly or harrassed while attending events. Or is talking to a woman considered harrassement? But then again, I do not live in (((the greatest country in the world))) and the mtg players here aren't exactly obese neckbeards.
Women will simply never become a sizeable part of mtg. Not because of harrassement or toxicity, it just isn't interesting to them, and that's fine.
The only people who claim anyone is justifying harassment are the ones putting words on other people's mouths so they can silence dissenting opinions. Pretending Jeremy didn't target Christine purposedly and knowing the left's usual ham-handed white knighting would make his channel explode in views is being intellectually dishonest for the sake of stifling possible discussion about the far-left's cult-like antics being not only harassment in themselves, but ineffective and only serving to exacerbate problems which affects us all.
Good work everyone!
That's nice in theory, but do you know why very few people pursue lawsuits over these things in practice? Whether its slander, harassment, and other behaviors?
1) Its expensive, and the damages are often too small to actually pay for the lawyers fees. Assuming that you even win the lawsuit.
2) It takes a lot of time and effort. The time part is partially by design to ensure thoroughness, but it can mean that by the time a problem has been resolved its no longer relevant anymore. Sometimes the person bringing up the lawsuit can even go bankrupt, oftentimes because of the very thing they are suing for. And given the low payout, the effort is often not worth the time and money unless you are rich to begin with.
3) Courtroom drama can cause more harm while the case is being heard. In fact, that is why some forms of abuse and harassment are criminal matters in the first place, while the other reason is because of the sheer degree of harm. Also, any time threats of violence or incitement to violence happens the authorities can and will treat it as a criminal matter.
Meanwhile, public shaming and other action has an immediate effect, it has the power to enforce norms that are beyond the powers of the court by design (there is a threshold to the level of dickery we want the government to step in and stop), and it protects those who can't afford to take things to court or lack the mental and emotional energy to do so. That's why companies like Patreon have terms of service, and the ability to enforce them should a problem be brought to their attention. I haven't looked at Patreon's TOS, so I don't know whether they will take action, but I do not see anything improper with people bringing it up with them and asking if they can do something about Jeremy. That's precisely the kind of thing Wizards itself has asked us to do about abuse on social media. The only difference being that on Patreon, money is involved. But then, the same is true in court.
In other words:
You are allowed your opinions.
You are allowed to voice your opinions.
If you decide tuat the best means of voicing your opinion is to be a complete childish ***, do not be surprised when people treat you like a complete childish ***. You are not being persecuted for political beliefs, you are being put in a corner because you are a child who cannot act like an adult.