That might be speculative, Mirridon was one of the most popular sets from my LGS. They went through cases on it weekly. No comment on Kami... Great set, soild draft and chock full of flavor, but to weak to compete competitively with Mirridon.
Err as far as healthiest format IMO it was RAV-KAM and RAV-TSP.
My un-empyrical opinion is that it was because there was a lot of powerful cards but nothing was really that pushed and the most powerful card jitte was more of a mistake then a conscientious effort, it ended up in a pre-con after all.
Wizards has begun pushing cards particularly at rare and mythic a lot recently, which kind of makes the decline numbers yet rising profits makes sense.
Healthesy ya... Time spiral did good things for standard despite poor sales.
Heres the thing, I can say that Wizards is pulling in more sales pretty confidently due to Hasbros finacial report.
I cant say the same about player base because Wizards doesnt seem to willing to share that information, that I am aware of, as opposed to say Blizzard who does share their player numbers (tbf its easier Id imagine for them to get those numbers).
The question is if the player base is shrinking but profits are up, is that a good thing and why is it?
I personally think its better for a company to have a bigger consumer base instead of maximizing product sales because its better for long term stability.
Warhammer Fantasy is an excellent example of the negative consquences of becoming more and more reliant off of a smaller core of heavy spenders, it eventually died off and isnt supported anymore.
So yeah maybe TSP didnt sell light gangbusters but that time period at least seems to have some universal acceptance as a good period for the player.
Also I tried to look up if there was a decrease in hobby stores and was kind of suprised that Hobby Lobby is actually the biggest hobby chain out there, and also suprised that they dont sell magic cards.
People in here need to step back from the ledge. MTG revenue is at/near an all time high. Yeah maybe the standard scene isn't at its best lately, which comes back to development focusing TOO much on limited and not enough on standard. Either way the game will always ebb and flow but the trend is UP, and games like hearthstone actually help MTG become more mainstream.
I thought there was an article about how profits were up, or was that more of Hasbro losing money elsewhere?
But if the player base is contracting that much it means they are becoming more reliant on a core of high spenders, reminds me of Warhammer, not the healthiest place for a company to be.
Whatever issues are the cause in loss of players I doubt any change will happen untill Hasbro sees profits dipping.
Like I said, it is in no small part due to a large increase in Game Stores opening. My LGS had FNMS reaching 70 or so people about four years ago on average. Now we have about 40 or so show up. Are people quitting? Well, no, not at all. About 8-12 people go to the newer store that opened that caters specifically to casual, non-competitive crowds, about 15-20 people go to the new store in the sister city, in no small part due to proximity. We also have another shop that didn't run tournaments at all start running FNMs this year, with about 8-12 people showing up there.
All told, I'd say that the area FNM attendence has gone *up* by about 20-30% over the past four years or so, even though attendance at the specific LGS I attend has gone down significantly. A lot of people are opening stores lately, from what I've seen, and that stretches the fanbase significantly. Still, this is part of why WotC profits go up, even though LGS's seem to have a drop in attendence. We are opening stores faster than we gaining new players. Now, I can't speak for New Player acquisition or retention specifically, as I havne't seen said numbers.
It's not that WotC is lying about what is going on, it's that they very possibly may not know why this seemingly paradoxical situation has arisen. Hence why their explanations seem hollow and daft; they likely don't know why sales are up even though average attendance is down. Average attendance is likely down in no small part due to adding more stores that fracture game stores community more and more, driving down average attendance even though the total number of people either hasn't really changed or has increased.
To illustrate my point, if the number of Game Stores doubles, and nothing else changes, then that means that the average attendance drops by half per store. Even if the stores grow at a 25% rate every years (Which is a perfectly reasonable, if high, growth rate), that would take over three full years of growth at that rate to reach attendance levels at the original store that matched it.
And my ancedotal evidence says game stores have been shutting down even in prosperous places like Northern VA or South Eastern PA.
Is there any sort of data on this?
Short answer is no. The long answer is that it is going to vary significantly. One could extrapolate some inference if one could figure out historical data on number of WPN stores that are currently in operation, as well as how this number has changed over time, coupled with player data and tournament attendance data. I will say that pretty much everyone in the business will tell you that you would have to be stupid to open a store, however. Even the most successful stores tend to operate on razor-thin margins, and the amount and variety you need to remain successful is mountainous. Hobby stores shut down because they are not a particularly profitable entity, even under good circumstances, and many would shut down even if player population were increasing. It's a miserable market that too many people get into because they think it will be easy and fun, and they don't understand the costs of operating a store-front and don't appreciate the amount of merchandise they have to sell.
The situation is very complicated, is what I'm getting at.
Ohh I agree, NYC is hurting because of how bad the rent is.
But your right about WPN and honestly Im kind of sure Wizards has to have a decent idea of the situation, I dont know why they wouldn't be open about it though.
Ohh I agree, NYC is hurting because of how bad the rent is.
Most cities it's outrageous. The reason why established stores tend to stay afloat at all is in no small part because of signed leases and contracts helping them keep rent under control.
But your right about WPN and honestly Im kind of sure Wizards has to have a decent idea of the situation, I dont know why they wouldn't be open about it though.
That's a lot less nefarious than you would think. They don't want competitors to have any information, at all, that could help them. These corporations have people whose sole job it is to pore through any scrap of data and figure out how to use it. It may not seem useful, but knowing the fluctuations in WPN stores and the attendance at each would have even an amateur corporate sleuth salivating.
I thought there was an article about how profits were up, or was that more of Hasbro losing money elsewhere?
But if the player base is contracting that much it means they are becoming more reliant on a core of high spenders, reminds me of Warhammer, not the healthiest place for a company to be.
Whatever issues are the cause in loss of players I doubt any change will happen untill Hasbro sees profits dipping.
Like I said, it is in no small part due to a large increase in Game Stores opening. My LGS had FNMS reaching 70 or so people about four years ago on average. Now we have about 40 or so show up. Are people quitting? Well, no, not at all. About 8-12 people go to the newer store that opened that caters specifically to casual, non-competitive crowds, about 15-20 people go to the new store in the sister city, in no small part due to proximity. We also have another shop that didn't run tournaments at all start running FNMs this year, with about 8-12 people showing up there.
All told, I'd say that the area FNM attendence has gone *up* by about 20-30% over the past four years or so, even though attendance at the specific LGS I attend has gone down significantly. A lot of people are opening stores lately, from what I've seen, and that stretches the fanbase significantly. Still, this is part of why WotC profits go up, even though LGS's seem to have a drop in attendence. We are opening stores faster than we gaining new players. Now, I can't speak for New Player acquisition or retention specifically, as I havne't seen said numbers.
It's not that WotC is lying about what is going on, it's that they very possibly may not know why this seemingly paradoxical situation has arisen. Hence why their explanations seem hollow and daft; they likely don't know why sales are up even though average attendance is down. Average attendance is likely down in no small part due to adding more stores that fracture game stores community more and more, driving down average attendance even though the total number of people either hasn't really changed or has increased.
To illustrate my point, if the number of Game Stores doubles, and nothing else changes, then that means that the average attendance drops by half per store. Even if the stores grow at a 25% rate every years (Which is a perfectly reasonable, if high, growth rate), that would take over three full years of growth at that rate to reach attendance levels at the original store that matched it.
And my ancedotal evidence says game stores have been shutting down even in prosperous places like Northern VA or South Eastern PA.
Is there any sort of data on this?
Short answer is no. The long answer is that it is going to vary significantly. One could extrapolate some inference if one could figure out historical data on number of WPN stores that are currently in operation, as well as how this number has changed over time, coupled with player data and tournament attendance data. I will say that pretty much everyone in the business will tell you that you would have to be stupid to open a store, however. Even the most successful stores tend to operate on razor-thin margins, and the amount and variety you need to remain successful is mountainous. Hobby stores shut down because they are not a particularly profitable entity, even under good circumstances, and many would shut down even if player population were increasing. It's a miserable market that too many people get into because they think it will be easy and fun, and they don't understand the costs of operating a store-front and don't appreciate the amount of merchandise they have to sell.
The situation is very complicated, is what I'm getting at.
Ohh I agree, NYC is hurting because of how bad the rent is.
But your right about WPN and honestly Im kind of sure Wizards has to have a decent idea of the situation, I dont know why they wouldn't be open about it though.
I edited my previous post to provide more detail, but Rudy put out a great video series on opening a store and what it takes to open a store.
Hey I get it, its like opening up a restaurant really.
But I know Blizzard released data even when it wasnt good data.
I cant find anything from Wizards of the coast in the same vein, like you said they can assured track how many stories are buying from them and I dont think it would that impossible for them to have an estimate about how many people buy their product.
And maybe Im just not finding it, but if its not out there, why wouldnt they release it?
Hey I get it, its like opening up a restaurant really.
But I know Blizzard released data even when it wasnt good data.
I cant find anything from Wizards of the coast in the same vein, like you said they can assured track how many stories are buying from them and I dont think it would that impossible for them to have an estimate about how many people buy their product.
And maybe Im just not finding it, but if its not out there, why wouldnt they release it?
Funny you say that because blizzard stopped releasing WoW sub numbers to the public when they got around 5m because of the negative impact on the stock. Blizzard is VERY conscious about what info it releases.
Hey I get it, its like opening up a restaurant really.
But I know Blizzard released data even when it wasnt good data.
I cant find anything from Wizards of the coast in the same vein, like you said they can assured track how many stories are buying from them and I dont think it would that impossible for them to have an estimate about how many people buy their product.
And maybe Im just not finding it, but if its not out there, why wouldnt they release it?
Funny you say that because blizzard stopped releasing WoW sub numbers to the public when they got around 5m because of the negative impact on the stock. Blizzard is VERY conscious about what info it releases.
Are you sure because I remember when their numbers started to go down they still released information, did they really stop at some point?
I stopped paying attention eventually so that could be true.
But yeah I would suspect a company would release numbers if they were good, so if they arent releasing numbers it probably means they are bad but thats really speculation.
Hey I get it, its like opening up a restaurant really.
But I know Blizzard released data even when it wasnt good data.
I cant find anything from Wizards of the coast in the same vein, like you said they can assured track how many stories are buying from them and I dont think it would that impossible for them to have an estimate about how many people buy their product.
And maybe Im just not finding it, but if its not out there, why wouldnt they release it?
Funny you say that because blizzard stopped releasing WoW sub numbers to the public when they got around 5m because of the negative impact on the stock. Blizzard is VERY conscious about what info it releases.
Are you sure because I remember when their numbers started to go down they still released information, did they really stop at some point?
I stopped paying attention eventually so that could be true.
But yeah I would suspect a company would release numbers if they were good, so if they arent releasing numbers it probably means they are bad but thats really speculation.
It really has nothing to do with that. Like I said, even seemingly meaningless stats such as player population can be an important tool for competitors. The larger you are, the more your competitors pay attention to every monute detail they can. There is nothibg much to be gained by giving aqay free market research to competitors, amd a whole lot more to be lost.
So why do companies do it, bigger and smaller companies in much more competitive fields all release or apparently stop releasing numbers of patrons in quarterly reports.
I dont really feel as though magic sales are dropping as much as the money is being more spread out than we are used to. Wizards keeps throwing so many different products at us, and who can afford to buy them all you know? I know I'm not made of money.
As far as poorer turnouts at local events at LGS that wouldn't surprise me at all either. Wizards hasn't been exactly great to LGS lately with them killing off desirable FNM promos in favor of the double sided tokens, less exclusive product to draw customers in and relatively under-powered standard sets. Who wants to pay an FNM entry fee when the FNM promos are cruddy, and your prize booster packs are not that great too. Who wants to pay 15 bucks to draft a set with 1 or 2 good cards in the entire set(*Cough* HOU *Cough*). Not many I suspect.
1. Putting rares that people want at higher rarity and into luxury sets.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
It's gotten to the point that more and more people are selling off their modern collections as well. I didn't think much of the fact a jund player and some others sold their decks off at my local game store, but then I ended up hearing about some people selling off collections worth close to 3000 dollars at hugely discounted prices. People are permanently leaving magic right now, it's not just a lull that we normally experience between standard cycles.
The issue is that wizards is going to look at the situation as being the result of their failed marketing and sales trial this fall and probably just rework spoilers to be closer to set release. Also, if the problem is financial exhaustion, they picked the absolute worst time to do large sets again. I'm pretty sure a lot of people aren't aware of the impact a single large set release has on card prices. If people think the chase rares in standard cost a pretty penny now, wait until they do single large sets and because of the larger spread and the same opening times the prices end up being even higher.
We are potentially looking at the most expensive upcoming standard season we will have had since Kahns if this goes the way I think it will.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's gotten to the point that more and more people are selling off their modern collections as well. I didn't think much of the fact a jund player and some others sold their decks off at my local game store, but then I ended up hearing about some people selling off collections worth close to 3000 dollars at hugely discounted prices. People are permanently leaving magic right now, it's not just a lull that we normally experience between standard cycles.
This just proves that Commander (EDH) isn't the future of Magic and with the implications of the Un-Sets becoming temporarily legal for Multiplayer Commander with 1 vs. 1 Duel/Traditional Commander being debatable it could end up driving away more of the demographic who end up taking the game more seriously than others. I guess people are just starting to come to their own realization of how Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games are potentially unsustainable as a business model.
Perhaps Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee were conspiring with Wizards of the Coast in order sacrifice competitive formats for casual play in an effort to abolish the Reserved List through a potential discontinuation of the game itself as a means of making Magic worth pennies on the dollar for casual players. So how do competitive players adapt? Play 1 vs. 1 Duel Commander. But then why play when it's not even a good substitute for Standard and Modern? So what do they do? Quit Magic altogether.
Sheldon Menery was probably upset about how Wizards of the Coast rebranded the format he created back when Commanders were just limited to the original Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles and probably realized that the best way to get back at them was to sell himself out to the company so that they can continue to oversaturate the market with annual Commander products until the chickens come home to roost. What would his reasoning behind this type of motive be?
With all due respect I have nothing against Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee as I'm deeply thankful for what they've done for Commander (EDH) in Magic since 2009. It's just that with all the current drama that's been happening with the game as of late, you kinda have to wonder If there's more to this than what's actually being let on that no one's talking about. If Magic has become as toxic as Yu-Gi-Oh! has then why bother playing Commander (EDH)? Has the overall power creep in Magic finally taken it's toll?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
It's gotten to the point that more and more people are selling off their modern collections as well. I didn't think much of the fact a jund player and some others sold their decks off at my local game store, but then I ended up hearing about some people selling off collections worth close to 3000 dollars at hugely discounted prices. People are permanently leaving magic right now, it's not just a lull that we normally experience between standard cycles.
This just proves that Commander (EDH) isn't the future of Magic and with the implications of the Un-Sets becoming temporarily legal for Multiplayer Commander with 1 vs. 1 Duel/Traditional Commander being debatable it could end up driving away more of the demographic who end up taking the game more seriously than others. I guess people are just starting to come to their own realization of how Trading Card Games / Collectible Card Games are potentially unsustainable as a business model.
Perhaps Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee were conspiring with Wizards of the Coast in order sacrifice competitive formats for casual play in an effort to abolish the Reserved List through a potential discontinuation of the game itself as a means of making Magic worth pennies on the dollar for casual players. So how do competitive players adapt? Play 1 vs. 1 Duel Commander. But then why play when it's not even a good substitute for Standard and Modern? So what do they do? Quit Magic altogether.
Sheldon Menery was probably upset about how Wizards of the Coast rebranded the format he created back when Commanders were just limited to the original Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles and probably realized that the best way to get back at them was to sell himself out to the company so that they can continue to oversaturate the market with annual Commander products until the chickens come home to roost. What would his reasoning behind this type of motive be?
With all due respect I have nothing against Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee as I'm deeply thankful for what they've done for Commander (EDH) in Magic since 2009. It's just that with all the current drama that's been happening with the game as of late, you kinda have to wonder If there's more to this than what's actually being let on that no one's talking about. If Magic has become as toxic as Yu-Gi-Oh! has then why bother playing Commander (EDH)? Has the overall power creep in Magic finally taken it's toll?
Card Slinger J. the problem with MtG compared to other TCGs is that they are focused far too much on draft and it's driven the costs of playing the game in a collectable fashion to insane heights. The difference between a budget deck in other card games compared to Magic is insane: With modern decks costing potentially over a thousand dollars vs a 60 dollar deck, and the power difference between the two is very real.
Other card games have cards that are borderline unplayable, but the developers at WoTC have made it an objective to make absolutely horrific cards just to satisfy some drafting experience that only exists for a few weeks at the start of each set. It's warped the marketplace for singles to the point that just about nobody buys booster packs unless they are drafting anymore, and those that buy booster packs coming into magic thinking it works like Force of Will or the Final Fantasy TCG end up making just unplayable garbage that results in them being annihilated, especially without someone to help them build a decent deck. The number of bad cards that people just need to shred or get rid of outweighs any fun one can have with opening the packs.
Let me put it this way, no one who is familiar with the hobby industry was seeing MTG lasting under the kind of extreme rarity / draft favoritism that is being used by the company. It requires too much money to build a tournament deck, the only way the price went down was from massively overprinting sets, and now we have a flood of garbage draft uncommons and commons being held by singles sellers that are bulk. Also, given the kind of acts the company had to take to make sure the card game was financially viable to maintain, I'm not surprised they swapped to absolutely *****ty card stock and went to amateur budget print companies. The massive color variation on cards going back to Eldrich moon is just bonkers.
How to fix the game? Easy:
1) Don't make strictly worse versions of an existing card in a set just for draft. If the card needs to be used in draft, judge accordingly how many copies of that card need to exist in the average draft pool and plan the rarity around that. No one in constructed is going to want to play Contract Killing if the set has Vraska's Contempt and the prior blocks have things like Essence Extraction. Also, looking back it may help if they just try to keep at least one modern playable kill spell in black in standard at all times. Throw us a bone at least and give us Grasp of Darkness mark 3 with some demon crushing some poor guys heart... wait, I think they did that with lay bare the heart... oh well.
2) Stop mythic raring the sets! The only reason that exists is because of the move to favor more expendable draft cards. Not to mention the mythic rares actually sabotage the draft experience for a lot of people, which has always been one of the great ironies of the mythic rarity.
3) Increase the number of rares per pack! Instead of foiling commons, just foil the uncommons and rares. Bump some rares to an uncommon slot, especially the weaker ones.
4) Have your commons and uncommons be the things people want to use as filler for the constructed decks. This doesn't mean they need to be modern level power, but at least be good enough that they will show up in constructed more often than not. Right now the ratio of playable commons is low, with the only one really coming to mind being Sacred Cat. That fellow doesn't even show up in anything T1 competitive, either. Also, in before Mark Rosewater says Sacred Cat was a mistake and that they really meant to print Trained Caracal.
5) Charge a fair price for the booster boxes and not 240 msrp for the closest approximation to the above.
6) Value quality over quantity and pay the extra dollar to give players decent card stock and print quality.
If they did the above people who buy singles would probably also buy packs on occasion. There's nothing wrong with a random pack of cards potentially giving players ideas on deck construction and it helps to not feel ripped off when most of the pack goes strait into a trash bin. It's going to be years before all this junk from the current generation gets out of the big box repacks, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. Putting rares that people want at higher rarity and into luxury sets.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
Agreed with most of this, especially number 4. They 'push' less than 10 cards per set it feels, and the rest they seem too careful. They focus too much on limited and not enough on standard. Standard just isnt varied/fun enough. I like the ixalan art/themes, so lets hope the next set ups the power level a bit.
Number 1 is probably likely to continue going forward, as its more profitable to make these chase masters sets and sell tons of those as well. Problem is they are running out of overpriced cards to reprint. They hit a TON of staples with Iconic. Watch out Liliana of the Veil, you are DUE for a reprint... maybe even in standard?
1. Putting rares that people want at higher rarity and into luxury sets.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
Agreed with most of this, especially number 4. They 'push' less than 10 cards per set it feels, and the rest they seem too careful. They focus too much on limited and not enough on standard. Standard just isnt varied/fun enough. I like the ixalan art/themes, so lets hope the next set ups the power level a bit.
Number 1 is probably likely to continue going forward, as its more profitable to make these chase masters sets and sell tons of those as well. Problem is they are running out of overpriced cards to reprint. They hit a TON of staples with Iconic. Watch out Liliana of the Veil, you are DUE for a reprint... maybe even in standard?
I'm just surprised that the game is as popular as it is when other TCGs do so much better than MTG. The only downside is that these other TCGs are the likes of Bushiroad titles and the Force of Will company, which thanks to their choices of art style, knee capped their games a bit on the US and European markets.
Also, just got my cold snap intro decks in the mail and opened them up. I hate to break it to wizards, but their new stuff is pretty bad compared to the older products.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WotC seems to be flailing. The number of products flooding the market is impossible for all but the wealthiest players to keep up with. Standard has become a mess in the past two years, and personally, I believe the "[Card Name] is too strong for Standard" mentality has played a role there. Additionally, the rotation schedules seem perpetually subject to change, the quality of the cards themselves is declining, the community is still toxic to women, FNM promos are gone, LGS's seem to be getting screwed in various ways...the list goes on and on.
Point is, my confidence in WotC and MtG has plummeted in the last 6 months to a year, and I don't think I'm alone. I've never experienced such a critical mass of negatives in such a small time, and I really hope a course correction is incoming.
Most MTG players are just Toxic in general. For some reason Magic attracts some of the most pompous people I have met in my entire life. This is a good reason I don't play as much. Most of the player base just annoys the crap out of me and it takes a lot of effort to be nice to many of the MTG players I met. A lot of them have some superiority complex or something. I dont think it is that it is Toxic to women, but mostly its just Toxic to everyone.
WotC seems to be flailing. The number of products flooding the market is impossible for all but the wealthiest players to keep up with. Standard has become a mess in the past two years, and personally, I believe the "[Card Name] is too strong for Standard" mentality has played a role there. Additionally, the rotation schedules seem perpetually subject to change, the quality of the cards themselves is declining, the community is still toxic to women, FNM promos are gone, LGS's seem to be getting screwed in various ways...the list goes on and on.
Point is, my confidence in WotC and MtG has plummeted in the last 6 months to a year, and I don't think I'm alone. I've never experienced such a critical mass of negatives in such a small time, and I really hope a course correction is incoming.
Most MTG players are just Toxic in general. For some reason Magic attracts some of the most pompous people I have met in my entire life. This is a good reason I don't play as much. Most of the player base just annoys the crap out of me and it takes a lot of effort to be nice to many of the MTG players I met. A lot of them have some superiority complex or something. I dont think it is that it is Toxic to women, but mostly its just Toxic to everyone.
I can tell you the reason for that. It's a combination of catering very heavily to competitive players and a strong focus on sales numbers. Old wizards had a much stronger focus on the player, often packing champion player cards in the 60 card intro decks, giving multiples of useful cards in the decks, etc.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
come on man, that's not cool. I've played mtg since 1993 and nearly everyone I meet at big tournaments and stuff are decent people with families, jobs and whatnot who enjoy the game and are cool. that's a big sample size by the way, I haven't hidden in a tiny LGS all this time.
sure there's a couple of bad eggs.... but that's humanity. it's not an MTG thing specifically.
don't be that guy making hurtful stereotypes man. Not a reasonable or truthful thing to do.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
come on man, that's not cool. I've played mtg since 1993 and nearly everyone I meet at big tournaments and stuff are decent people with families, jobs and whatnot who enjoy the game and are cool. that's a big sample size by the way, I haven't hidden in a tiny LGS all this time.
sure there's a couple of bad eggs.... but that's humanity. it's not an MTG thing specifically.
don't be that guy making hurtful stereotypes man. Not a reasonable or truthful thing to do.
The thing he is probably referring to is the subset of semi-competitive players that typically don't have a lot of time to play, depend on online decklists to be able to pull off a reasonable chance of winning, and typically have a sense of false entitlement. The entitlement issue is one that is actively encouraged by the emergence of the pay to play markets, where players can spend more time to get things or pay money to shortcut the process. Hint: the entire thing is designed to make people pay money eventually.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I believe at least some of the fault lies with Wizards reducing how much public metagame data is available. In theory it makes sense that you'd get more variety in decks by making it unclear what the optimal strategy is, but in practice I've seen the opposite: without knowing exactly what you're playing against it's hard to know what to build your deck for. You don't see nearly as many attempts to "beat the meta" because the meta is so weak.
The reason they hid the data according to public knowledge was to prevent the standard format from being solved too fast. The reality is that they probably realized that if there was meta data floating around it would result in an "airing your dirty laundry" scenario. I've been questioning the set development in magic the gathering for a while now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. Putting rares that people want at higher rarity and into luxury sets.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
Agreed with most of this, especially number 4. They 'push' less than 10 cards per set it feels, and the rest they seem too careful. They focus too much on limited and not enough on standard. Standard just isnt varied/fun enough. I like the ixalan art/themes, so lets hope the next set ups the power level a bit.
Number 1 is probably likely to continue going forward, as its more profitable to make these chase masters sets and sell tons of those as well. Problem is they are running out of overpriced cards to reprint. They hit a TON of staples with Iconic. Watch out Liliana of the Veil, you are DUE for a reprint... maybe even in standard?
I'm just surprised that the game is as popular as it is when other TCGs do so much better than MTG. The only downside is that these other TCGs are the likes of Bushiroad titles and the Force of Will company, which thanks to their choices of art style, knee capped their games a bit on the US and European markets.
Also, just got my cold snap intro decks in the mail and opened them up. I hate to break it to wizards, but their new stuff is pretty bad compared to the older products.
Offhisgame, the reason why they're running out of overpriced cards to reprint is due to the Reserved List which is a Catch-22 for both players and collectors since expanding the Reserved List will only make collectors happy while rescinding it would only make players happy. The end result of either outcome has the potential If not guarantee to fundamentally discontinue Magic as we know it.
Colt47, how this ties to other TCG's is that If Magic gets discontinued due to what happens to the Reserved List then it will create a domino effect resulting in the discontinuation of every existing TCG currently circulating in the Secondary Market. Everyone would be left with cards holding little to no resale value with entire card collections worth pennies on the dollar. With no place to play anymore it'd be like what happened to local Arcades in the late 90's.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
1. Putting rares that people want at higher rarity and into luxury sets.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
Agreed with most of this, especially number 4. They 'push' less than 10 cards per set it feels, and the rest they seem too careful. They focus too much on limited and not enough on standard. Standard just isnt varied/fun enough. I like the ixalan art/themes, so lets hope the next set ups the power level a bit.
Number 1 is probably likely to continue going forward, as its more profitable to make these chase masters sets and sell tons of those as well. Problem is they are running out of overpriced cards to reprint. They hit a TON of staples with Iconic. Watch out Liliana of the Veil, you are DUE for a reprint... maybe even in standard?
I'm just surprised that the game is as popular as it is when other TCGs do so much better than MTG. The only downside is that these other TCGs are the likes of Bushiroad titles and the Force of Will company, which thanks to their choices of art style, knee capped their games a bit on the US and European markets.
Also, just got my cold snap intro decks in the mail and opened them up. I hate to break it to wizards, but their new stuff is pretty bad compared to the older products.
Offhisgame, the reason why they're running out of overpriced cards to reprint is due to the Reserved List which is a Catch-22 for both players and collectors since expanding the Reserved List will only make collectors happy while rescinding it would only make players happy. The end result of either outcome has the potential If not guarantee to fundamentally discontinue Magic as we know it.
Colt47, how this ties to other TCG's is that If Magic gets discontinued due to what happens to the Reserved List then it will create a domino effect resulting in the discontinuation of every existing TCG currently circulating in the Secondary Market. Everyone would be left with cards holding little to no resale value with entire card collections worth pennies on the dollar. With no place to play anymore it'd be like what happened to local Arcades in the late 90's.
Without turning this into a Reserved List discussion, the Reserved Lists problem is that it was written horribly. The idea is that it should preserve a specific set of frame and artwork, not necessarily the card itself. Contrary to what people tend to think we don't need to get rid of the reserved list as much as "fix" the reserved list and make sure cards can be printed later on. Imagine if Thoughtseize could be reprinted, but they could never reprint the Lorwyn version with the fairy artwork: Yes, if people wanted the original art one they'd be dealing with escellating prices, but if someone just wants a thoughtseize they could get the latest version. What makes a ton of the cards on the RL worth so much is that they are from a unique time in Wizards history with some of the most uncomfortable / memorable artwork in the game.
Also, other card games would be pretty much unaffected by the RL removal. I know there's been talk on the net about the impact of repealing net neutrality and how that will result in politicians in Australia and Canada following suite, but that's a completely different can of worms. Unless you are suggesting there is some kind of crazy double dipping WoTC / Bushiroad / Konami fanaticism running around in the Investor market that literally no one or their mother has heard about. I mean I love me some Bushiroad just on the card quality alone, but those games are a completely different and untapped bucket.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Heres the thing, I can say that Wizards is pulling in more sales pretty confidently due to Hasbros finacial report.
I cant say the same about player base because Wizards doesnt seem to willing to share that information, that I am aware of, as opposed to say Blizzard who does share their player numbers (tbf its easier Id imagine for them to get those numbers).
The question is if the player base is shrinking but profits are up, is that a good thing and why is it?
I personally think its better for a company to have a bigger consumer base instead of maximizing product sales because its better for long term stability.
Warhammer Fantasy is an excellent example of the negative consquences of becoming more and more reliant off of a smaller core of heavy spenders, it eventually died off and isnt supported anymore.
So yeah maybe TSP didnt sell light gangbusters but that time period at least seems to have some universal acceptance as a good period for the player.
Also I tried to look up if there was a decrease in hobby stores and was kind of suprised that Hobby Lobby is actually the biggest hobby chain out there, and also suprised that they dont sell magic cards.
Ohh I agree, NYC is hurting because of how bad the rent is.
But your right about WPN and honestly Im kind of sure Wizards has to have a decent idea of the situation, I dont know why they wouldn't be open about it though.
Most cities it's outrageous. The reason why established stores tend to stay afloat at all is in no small part because of signed leases and contracts helping them keep rent under control.
That's a lot less nefarious than you would think. They don't want competitors to have any information, at all, that could help them. These corporations have people whose sole job it is to pore through any scrap of data and figure out how to use it. It may not seem useful, but knowing the fluctuations in WPN stores and the attendance at each would have even an amateur corporate sleuth salivating.
I edited my previous post to provide more detail, but Rudy put out a great video series on opening a store and what it takes to open a store.
But I know Blizzard released data even when it wasnt good data.
I cant find anything from Wizards of the coast in the same vein, like you said they can assured track how many stories are buying from them and I dont think it would that impossible for them to have an estimate about how many people buy their product.
And maybe Im just not finding it, but if its not out there, why wouldnt they release it?
Funny you say that because blizzard stopped releasing WoW sub numbers to the public when they got around 5m because of the negative impact on the stock. Blizzard is VERY conscious about what info it releases.
Are you sure because I remember when their numbers started to go down they still released information, did they really stop at some point?
I stopped paying attention eventually so that could be true.
But yeah I would suspect a company would release numbers if they were good, so if they arent releasing numbers it probably means they are bad but thats really speculation.
It really has nothing to do with that. Like I said, even seemingly meaningless stats such as player population can be an important tool for competitors. The larger you are, the more your competitors pay attention to every monute detail they can. There is nothibg much to be gained by giving aqay free market research to competitors, amd a whole lot more to be lost.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170504006637/en/Activision-Blizzard-Announces-Better-Than-Expected-Record-First-Quarter-2017
As far as poorer turnouts at local events at LGS that wouldn't surprise me at all either. Wizards hasn't been exactly great to LGS lately with them killing off desirable FNM promos in favor of the double sided tokens, less exclusive product to draw customers in and relatively under-powered standard sets. Who wants to pay an FNM entry fee when the FNM promos are cruddy, and your prize booster packs are not that great too. Who wants to pay 15 bucks to draft a set with 1 or 2 good cards in the entire set(*Cough* HOU *Cough*). Not many I suspect.
2. The destruction of the color wheel and "mono-color matters" to push dual lands as lottery tickets.
3. No exclusive Modern support to keep prices down.
4. 90% of standards sets consisting of Limited fodder and the rest are chased rares costing $30-$50.
5. No world-building in unified design/boring mechanics.
It's gotten to the point that more and more people are selling off their modern collections as well. I didn't think much of the fact a jund player and some others sold their decks off at my local game store, but then I ended up hearing about some people selling off collections worth close to 3000 dollars at hugely discounted prices. People are permanently leaving magic right now, it's not just a lull that we normally experience between standard cycles.
The issue is that wizards is going to look at the situation as being the result of their failed marketing and sales trial this fall and probably just rework spoilers to be closer to set release. Also, if the problem is financial exhaustion, they picked the absolute worst time to do large sets again. I'm pretty sure a lot of people aren't aware of the impact a single large set release has on card prices. If people think the chase rares in standard cost a pretty penny now, wait until they do single large sets and because of the larger spread and the same opening times the prices end up being even higher.
We are potentially looking at the most expensive upcoming standard season we will have had since Kahns if this goes the way I think it will.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Perhaps Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee were conspiring with Wizards of the Coast in order sacrifice competitive formats for casual play in an effort to abolish the Reserved List through a potential discontinuation of the game itself as a means of making Magic worth pennies on the dollar for casual players. So how do competitive players adapt? Play 1 vs. 1 Duel Commander. But then why play when it's not even a good substitute for Standard and Modern? So what do they do? Quit Magic altogether.
Sheldon Menery was probably upset about how Wizards of the Coast rebranded the format he created back when Commanders were just limited to the original Elder Dragons from Legends/Chronicles and probably realized that the best way to get back at them was to sell himself out to the company so that they can continue to oversaturate the market with annual Commander products until the chickens come home to roost. What would his reasoning behind this type of motive be?
With all due respect I have nothing against Sheldon Menery and the EDH Rules Committee as I'm deeply thankful for what they've done for Commander (EDH) in Magic since 2009. It's just that with all the current drama that's been happening with the game as of late, you kinda have to wonder If there's more to this than what's actually being let on that no one's talking about. If Magic has become as toxic as Yu-Gi-Oh! has then why bother playing Commander (EDH)? Has the overall power creep in Magic finally taken it's toll?
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Card Slinger J. the problem with MtG compared to other TCGs is that they are focused far too much on draft and it's driven the costs of playing the game in a collectable fashion to insane heights. The difference between a budget deck in other card games compared to Magic is insane: With modern decks costing potentially over a thousand dollars vs a 60 dollar deck, and the power difference between the two is very real.
Other card games have cards that are borderline unplayable, but the developers at WoTC have made it an objective to make absolutely horrific cards just to satisfy some drafting experience that only exists for a few weeks at the start of each set. It's warped the marketplace for singles to the point that just about nobody buys booster packs unless they are drafting anymore, and those that buy booster packs coming into magic thinking it works like Force of Will or the Final Fantasy TCG end up making just unplayable garbage that results in them being annihilated, especially without someone to help them build a decent deck. The number of bad cards that people just need to shred or get rid of outweighs any fun one can have with opening the packs.
Let me put it this way, no one who is familiar with the hobby industry was seeing MTG lasting under the kind of extreme rarity / draft favoritism that is being used by the company. It requires too much money to build a tournament deck, the only way the price went down was from massively overprinting sets, and now we have a flood of garbage draft uncommons and commons being held by singles sellers that are bulk. Also, given the kind of acts the company had to take to make sure the card game was financially viable to maintain, I'm not surprised they swapped to absolutely *****ty card stock and went to amateur budget print companies. The massive color variation on cards going back to Eldrich moon is just bonkers.
How to fix the game? Easy:
1) Don't make strictly worse versions of an existing card in a set just for draft. If the card needs to be used in draft, judge accordingly how many copies of that card need to exist in the average draft pool and plan the rarity around that. No one in constructed is going to want to play Contract Killing if the set has Vraska's Contempt and the prior blocks have things like Essence Extraction. Also, looking back it may help if they just try to keep at least one modern playable kill spell in black in standard at all times. Throw us a bone at least and give us Grasp of Darkness mark 3 with some demon crushing some poor guys heart... wait, I think they did that with lay bare the heart... oh well.
2) Stop mythic raring the sets! The only reason that exists is because of the move to favor more expendable draft cards. Not to mention the mythic rares actually sabotage the draft experience for a lot of people, which has always been one of the great ironies of the mythic rarity.
3) Increase the number of rares per pack! Instead of foiling commons, just foil the uncommons and rares. Bump some rares to an uncommon slot, especially the weaker ones.
4) Have your commons and uncommons be the things people want to use as filler for the constructed decks. This doesn't mean they need to be modern level power, but at least be good enough that they will show up in constructed more often than not. Right now the ratio of playable commons is low, with the only one really coming to mind being Sacred Cat. That fellow doesn't even show up in anything T1 competitive, either. Also, in before Mark Rosewater says Sacred Cat was a mistake and that they really meant to print Trained Caracal.
5) Charge a fair price for the booster boxes and not 240 msrp for the closest approximation to the above.
6) Value quality over quantity and pay the extra dollar to give players decent card stock and print quality.
If they did the above people who buy singles would probably also buy packs on occasion. There's nothing wrong with a random pack of cards potentially giving players ideas on deck construction and it helps to not feel ripped off when most of the pack goes strait into a trash bin. It's going to be years before all this junk from the current generation gets out of the big box repacks, though.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Agreed with most of this, especially number 4. They 'push' less than 10 cards per set it feels, and the rest they seem too careful. They focus too much on limited and not enough on standard. Standard just isnt varied/fun enough. I like the ixalan art/themes, so lets hope the next set ups the power level a bit.
Number 1 is probably likely to continue going forward, as its more profitable to make these chase masters sets and sell tons of those as well. Problem is they are running out of overpriced cards to reprint. They hit a TON of staples with Iconic. Watch out Liliana of the Veil, you are DUE for a reprint... maybe even in standard?
I'm just surprised that the game is as popular as it is when other TCGs do so much better than MTG. The only downside is that these other TCGs are the likes of Bushiroad titles and the Force of Will company, which thanks to their choices of art style, knee capped their games a bit on the US and European markets.
Also, just got my cold snap intro decks in the mail and opened them up. I hate to break it to wizards, but their new stuff is pretty bad compared to the older products.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Most MTG players are just Toxic in general. For some reason Magic attracts some of the most pompous people I have met in my entire life. This is a good reason I don't play as much. Most of the player base just annoys the crap out of me and it takes a lot of effort to be nice to many of the MTG players I met. A lot of them have some superiority complex or something. I dont think it is that it is Toxic to women, but mostly its just Toxic to everyone.
I can tell you the reason for that. It's a combination of catering very heavily to competitive players and a strong focus on sales numbers. Old wizards had a much stronger focus on the player, often packing champion player cards in the 60 card intro decks, giving multiples of useful cards in the decks, etc.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
come on man, that's not cool. I've played mtg since 1993 and nearly everyone I meet at big tournaments and stuff are decent people with families, jobs and whatnot who enjoy the game and are cool. that's a big sample size by the way, I haven't hidden in a tiny LGS all this time.
sure there's a couple of bad eggs.... but that's humanity. it's not an MTG thing specifically.
don't be that guy making hurtful stereotypes man. Not a reasonable or truthful thing to do.
The thing he is probably referring to is the subset of semi-competitive players that typically don't have a lot of time to play, depend on online decklists to be able to pull off a reasonable chance of winning, and typically have a sense of false entitlement. The entitlement issue is one that is actively encouraged by the emergence of the pay to play markets, where players can spend more time to get things or pay money to shortcut the process. Hint: the entire thing is designed to make people pay money eventually.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Colt47, how this ties to other TCG's is that If Magic gets discontinued due to what happens to the Reserved List then it will create a domino effect resulting in the discontinuation of every existing TCG currently circulating in the Secondary Market. Everyone would be left with cards holding little to no resale value with entire card collections worth pennies on the dollar. With no place to play anymore it'd be like what happened to local Arcades in the late 90's.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Without turning this into a Reserved List discussion, the Reserved Lists problem is that it was written horribly. The idea is that it should preserve a specific set of frame and artwork, not necessarily the card itself. Contrary to what people tend to think we don't need to get rid of the reserved list as much as "fix" the reserved list and make sure cards can be printed later on. Imagine if Thoughtseize could be reprinted, but they could never reprint the Lorwyn version with the fairy artwork: Yes, if people wanted the original art one they'd be dealing with escellating prices, but if someone just wants a thoughtseize they could get the latest version. What makes a ton of the cards on the RL worth so much is that they are from a unique time in Wizards history with some of the most uncomfortable / memorable artwork in the game.
Also, other card games would be pretty much unaffected by the RL removal. I know there's been talk on the net about the impact of repealing net neutrality and how that will result in politicians in Australia and Canada following suite, but that's a completely different can of worms. Unless you are suggesting there is some kind of crazy double dipping WoTC / Bushiroad / Konami fanaticism running around in the Investor market that literally no one or their mother has heard about. I mean I love me some Bushiroad just on the card quality alone, but those games are a completely different and untapped bucket.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!