I don't agree with MTG Lion in that statement of his, mostly because it is an ivory tower statement.
As it must be so easy for him to basically say "Don't support your LGS because of this one guy" as he looks like he is jumping ship. As mass boycotting WotC and not participating in local game store events because of one guy actually hurts those local game stores more and expedites the problems some locations might be having with attendance. Also if it hurts these locations big time as they might be mostly focused on MTG, then they have to close shop because of the massive decrease of foot traffic to their store.
I'm still going to play competitively because its fun, I'm going to play limited because I enjoy it, I'm going to get Unstable as I been looking forward to it for so many years now, I'm going to buy modern cards because I enjoy the format. I'm not going to let the actions of someone* I don't even know or care about get in the way of me enjoying the hobby I have loved for well over two decades now.
* = Alex Bertoncini
The problem is that the LGS that people are talking about are really unpaid Magic the Gathering Stores that just happen to support other card games. This entire situation was years in the making and I started seeing it when the MTG Judges thing happened (the part with unpaid labor). Wizards of the Coast has a huge issue that they created themselves with the support infrastructure for the game. The entire game is supported by basically third party sources composed of fans and players. Even the LGS are basically run by people who originally played the game and know it well enough to want to support it. This is built to basically die in a blazing fire of glory as the only thing the company has to do is make enough people angry to give up on the game. As bad as EA or other game vendors are, they never built a support infrastructure based around a fandom to market and sell their products. Heck, Games Workshop does a better job at maintaining store locations, and they are viewed as the devil incarnate in some respects.
Stop with the doomsaying, its tired and trite.
Let me put it this way: If someone came to you and said their favorite store that mostly sells ladders to stay in business is having trouble because the guys making the ladders are having manufacturing problems, but says that they are doing changes and in two years the ladders will be okay, would you honestly go buy ladders from the store? Maybe if someone really liked the guy running it, but ultimately it's the store owner who has to change things around to stay in business because it makes no sense to buy a faulty ladder.
Yes I would buy a ladder. Because the ladder store is merely a place that sells the product, they are not in charge of manufacturing the product. They might also sell older models to you as good will to you the customer and hope you return again.
Also, I looked into the gambling thing and actually, they don't even need to abolish the reserved list to get people to classify MTG as gambling. However, I think it is a good idea that this gets taken to court because what really needs to happen is to have measures put in place to prevent massive secondary market pricing on cards. The main problem is that players end up branching into a few different groups when they go into a TCG depending on how they play the game:
Depends on the country, MTG ran into this problem before and by changing the text slightly it fit the country's standard of "not gambling".
1) Draft night players (Pop packs, drop the cards to buy more packs...)
2) Constructed Players (Buy singles, trade em in for next season)
3) Living Card Game Players (Screw rotation! I got my vintage!) The problem group
The third party is the one that is causing issues right now. They play the game like it was a living card game and just seek out to buy playsets of the best cards in the games history. No TCG actually supports this type of play, so the secondary market prices keep climbing up unless the company reprints the cards. Sure, a TCG can survive for a while with the LCG crowd in their midst, but eventually the haves vs the have nots sets in and the grumbling will cause discontent.
Force of Will has done this with their "Vingolf" series. The Spoils tcg has done this with "Seed III: Fall of Marmotha" and their "Decade of Decadence" cube. Such products are referred to as fixed products. It has the qualities of a LCG while still having other products like TCG/CCG would. A fixed set could be of any size but the key factor is its not randomized. If WotC released a fixed set for Modern they probably could drive prices down for entry into the format to make it less intimidating for a new player who wants to buy a deck. Also remember that a fixed set is not a guarantee that that you get 4-of for each card, some offer 2-ofs and other times its even 1-ofs.
The other thing is this sort service is already done by others in the community at varying prices and varying rarities. Right now for instance you could buy a Complete set of Ixalan, 1 of each copy, for $110.
Really, they could fix the majority of issues the game has by just converting the majority of modern / legacy into a Living Card Game while keeping standard. Modern doesn't really innovate much and from experience it feels like when new cards enter the format it causes more issues for players and wizards of the coast than positive things. Is this a rudy approved move? Hell no the guy is probably going to throw a big video up refuting this is a smart decision if wizards did it, but by doing this it would cut a huge swath of criticism away in regards to the game.
Yes, cheap fixed sets would help for older formats like that. Little Timmy can now just go buy a fixed set for one of those older formats and get everything they wanted and able to start for a reasonable price. If I recall correctly such fixed sets tend to go anywhere between $20-60 based on size. A living card game tends to sell its whole set for about 15-50$.
Also a living card game is not exempt from future sets and in fact can be affected by future living cards.
On the subject of buying a faulty ladder from the ladder store, I'm glad you'd do it because you like the store owner. Wizards of the Coast thrived because they used to be smaller and worked closer with the fans of the game. This mutually proactive system is what helped lead the way for local Magic the Gathering shops to exist as the company would throw down and provide promotional material, promos, etc, while the store owner and players would promote the game and sell it for the company.
Fast forward to the current day and players and LGS are still trying to promote the game and help support it financially, but Wizards has completely backed out of their part. Instead of supporting stores and players they've increased the print runs, cut costs on materials, have put more and more product into big box stores when originally the only place to get products was through the LGS, and have been constantly messing with prize support. On top of which, their CEO appears to be lost in a fantasy land of some sort with believing the way to make the game better is to break into the uncanny valley with strange ethnic equality promotional material that has even been impacting some of the choices they've been making in the game. The reality is the fanbase just hasn't caught up to the realities of the shift in WoTC.
So in the case of the ladder store, I wouldn't buy faulty ladders. What I would be doing is going to the store and telling them the good brands that still work and don't potentially lead to a bunch of injuries, have them order those, and then buy those ladders instead. Why? Because if he swaps out of the bad brands now and has the brands that people know are good he can stay in business without having to support a dubious company that has made a promise that wont manifest for 2+ years. The entire point of what I'm trying to get at is that local game stores can survive without magic if the stores choose to and the players that spend money at those places give them the information they need to stay open. They have the power to choose to be a Pokemon store, a Bushi-road store, a Games workshop / Hobby store, etc.
It's not our fault if a store goes out of business because no one likes Wizards of the Coast and they are still trying to sell magic cards. Trying to keep them open by buying WoTC Products is not helping the store or oneself. Also, as far as vingolf like boxes go, even if we pushed wizards to do so right now via surveys and the like, they would over charge for it by huge margins because of the secondary market prices. I don't exactly agree with MtG Lion, but I agree that given WoTC has driven itself into a corner, doesn't have a clear way out, and it's going to take them forever to fix the issues they created for themselves that it's worth it to just walk away, at least temporarily.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
@Colt47: The other problem that a Vingolf or even Netrunner styled set would have is the secondary market itself. Lets say WotC charges $15 for this mini-set for that gives you 15 new cards. These are not limited fodder and should be considered as rare or mythic in mechanics/power. The number of copies is 2 for each.
@Colt47: The other problem that a Vingolf or even Netrunner styled set would have is the secondary market itself. Lets say WotC charges $15 for this mini-set for that gives you 15 new cards. These are not limited fodder and should be considered as rare or mythic in mechanics/power. The number of copies is 2 for each.
What do you anticipate the market would do?
Have you seen Vingolf 3?
First, no, the set would not be 15 dollars because if it was like vingolf it would be 2 of each card of usually 25 cards plus 2 dual lands priced at around 50 dollars. Depending on print run, it would be sold on pre-order only and aftermarket boxes would be sold for around probably 80-120 usd depending on the run, but honestly your question is so far open and in the wild without any kind of context as to what cards you are referring to that I can't tell you what the market would do.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
@Colt47: The other problem that a Vingolf or even Netrunner styled set would have is the secondary market itself. Lets say WotC charges $15 for this mini-set for that gives you 15 new cards. These are not limited fodder and should be considered as rare or mythic in mechanics/power. The number of copies is 2 for each.
What do you anticipate the market would do?
Have you seen Vingolf 3?
First, no, the set would not be 15 dollars because if it was like vingolf it would be 2 of each card of usually 25 cards plus 2 dual lands priced at around 50 dollars. Depending on print run, it would be sold on pre-order only and aftermarket boxes would be sold for around probably 80-120 usd depending on the run, but honestly your question is so far open and in the wild without any kind of context as to what cards you are referring to that I can't tell you what the market would do.
So you predict that the fixed set would be overcharged by the secondary market?
@Colt47: The other problem that a Vingolf or even Netrunner styled set would have is the secondary market itself. Lets say WotC charges $15 for this mini-set for that gives you 15 new cards. These are not limited fodder and should be considered as rare or mythic in mechanics/power. The number of copies is 2 for each.
What do you anticipate the market would do?
Have you seen Vingolf 3?
First, no, the set would not be 15 dollars because if it was like vingolf it would be 2 of each card of usually 25 cards plus 2 dual lands priced at around 50 dollars. Depending on print run, it would be sold on pre-order only and aftermarket boxes would be sold for around probably 80-120 usd depending on the run, but honestly your question is so far open and in the wild without any kind of context as to what cards you are referring to that I can't tell you what the market would do.
So you predict that the fixed set would be overcharged by the secondary market?
Depends on the print run. Vingolf 3 was a disaster because not enough of them were printed to satisfy even the pre-orders going out. There were several cases of people having their pre-orders cancelled because the stores literally couldn't get enough boxes.
It also depends on what is in the box. Going by what I think you really meant, I believe what you are looking for is a box of highly played cards in multiple formats, so lightning bolt, birds of paradise, maybe three big name cards like Karn Liberated, etc.
1) It's a print on demand product charged at MSRP of 50 usd: Pre-order prices would probably be stacked up, but because it's a race to the bottom even in a sealed product market the competition would drive the prices of the boxes down even with set high money cards. Also, that style of product would go into super markets so honestly, most people would just get them from the super market in that case.
2) It's like FTV or Vingolf 3... Just go to tcgplayer and look at the prices. No need to explain that.
The real problem in this entire thing is the lack of official wizards of the coast style stores like what Games Workshop has. As evil as those guys are sometimes, they have the better set up than WoTC to handle products in a controlled fashion. The only real outlet they got is MJ Holdings and big box retailers as far as forcing prices on products.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How does magic change the text to not be classified as gambling? The only way I can see them claiming its not gambling is by saying that they have zero interaction with the secondary market, but they are partners with Channel Fireball and were/are with SCG.
@Colt47: I doubt it would be horrible like Vin3 mostly because it seems they got their act together with printing things. Yeah I do mean like a big collection of cards from MTG history this game has to offer for such formats like Legacy or Modern as reprints. As if the barrier to entry is lowered, more people would be willing to embrace Modern or Legacy.
How does magic change the text to not be classified as gambling?
Foreign power requested they changed it in order to differentiate themselves from gambling. If I recall the language was either Portuguese or Spanish. When WotC did as requested, they were good to go and sell their product.
Another thing is Germany does not support WotC's big tournaments if the prizes are money as that would be associated with gambling.
How does magic change the text to not be classified as gambling?
Foreign power requested they changed it in order to differentiate themselves from gambling. If I recall the language was either Portuguese or Spanish. When WotC did as requested, they were good to go and sell their product.
Another thing is Germany does not support WotC's big tournaments if the prizes are money as that would be associated with gambling.
Im talking about packs not tournaments.
They are basically scratch off tickets right? And other companies like McDonalds have no-purchase necessary clauses or else they would be considered gambling with their promotions.
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
Also masterpiece cards and previous type events.
I see what this is, your trying to say a rare is like a sheet of gold. Except you come up short again. First of all gold is more recognizable than a rare from a mtg set. To the average person, a rare has no value outside of MTG.
If you were to try and trade that dollar-bin rare into a card shop, you only get 20-50 cents in value of that rare. Where as with a lottery ticket you get exactly what the lottery ticket says, even if its just a dollar you get that whole dollar.
One mythic to another mythic has no more value than another as according to the manufacturers. To the free market they see a difference in value. The only thing separating a premium/foil from a non-premium/foil is a slightly increase in resources needing to be used to manufacture such a card.
In fact the only true gambling element called Ante was removed very early on in MTG's infancy. By the arrival of the set Alliances there were no more Ante cards.
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
Also masterpiece cards and previous type events.
I see what this is, your trying to say a rare is like a sheet of gold. Except you come up short again. First of all gold is more recognizable than a rare from a mtg set. To the average person, a rare has no value outside of MTG.
If you were to try and trade that dollar-bin rare into a card shop, you only get 20-50 cents in value of that rare. Where as with a lottery ticket you get exactly what the lottery ticket says, even if its just a dollar you get that whole dollar.
One mythic to another mythic has no more value than another as according to the manufacturers. To the free market they see a difference in value. The only thing separating a premium/foil from a non-premium/foil is a slightly increase in resources needing to be used to manufacture such a card.
In fact the only true gambling element called Ante was removed very early on in MTG's infancy. By the arrival of the set Alliances there were no more Ante cards.
But the market is what determines everythings worth. The sheet of gold wasnt the best example because gold is one of the few things out there that is universally recognized as having worth.
An extremely rare stamp, a lay person might not understand the value but that doesnt mean it doesnt have value, even if that value is determined by the market.
Every set of magic is going to have x chase cards, wizards of the coast can manipulate that number through pushing certain cards power levels (or in even more flagrant examples such as the Zendikar adventure cards). Its just like casino adjusting the frequency and monetary value of its jackpot of a slot machines pay out, now wizards of the coast might not be able to set the exact amount of each pay out but it can determine which cards will be the "pay out".
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
Also masterpiece cards and previous type events.
I see what this is, your trying to say a rare is like a sheet of gold. Except you come up short again. First of all gold is more recognizable than a rare from a mtg set. To the average person, a rare has no value outside of MTG.
If you were to try and trade that dollar-bin rare into a card shop, you only get 20-50 cents in value of that rare. Where as with a lottery ticket you get exactly what the lottery ticket says, even if its just a dollar you get that whole dollar.
One mythic to another mythic has no more value than another as according to the manufacturers. To the free market they see a difference in value. The only thing separating a premium/foil from a non-premium/foil is a slightly increase in resources needing to be used to manufacture such a card.
In fact the only true gambling element called Ante was removed very early on in MTG's infancy. By the arrival of the set Alliances there were no more Ante cards.
But the market is what determines everythings worth. The sheet of gold wasnt the best example because gold is one of the few things out there that is universally recognized as having worth.
An extremely rare stamp, a lay person might not understand the value but that doesnt mean it doesnt have value, even if that value is determined by the market.
Every set of magic is going to have x chase cards, wizards of the coast can manipulate that number through pushing certain cards power levels (or in even more flagrant examples such as the Zendikar adventure cards). Its just like casino adjusting the frequency and monetary value of its jackpot of a slot machines pay out, now wizards of the coast might not be able to set the exact amount of each pay out but it can determine which cards will be the "pay out".
The trouble I'm seeing with peoples discussion here is that the price of chase cards are not the only issue here. The reasons WoTC is getting trouble is a whole lot of "problems" that have accumulated due to shifts in artistic direction, card development, and card printings, as well as political stancing and a very shaky, uncontrollable support infrastructure run by third parties.
1) MTG has lost it's edge. The art isn't edgy or as punchy as it once was and has increasingly traded more powerful artistic direction for consistency. It's like they are actively trying for a PG rating when the game is PG-13. On the upside, the punchiness of the actual art has improved and mostly been mired by bad print issues. Speaking of which...
2) Card quality and print issues have severely damaged the game. It doesn't matter if a set corrected issues of washed out colors and picked punchy front pieces if the print facilities print the cards too dark, miss-cut the cards, or produce foils that bend so well that you'd think they were taking a hathaa Yoga class.
3) No control over the advertising of other formats. Sure they can push standard all they want, but if people like modern all the top decks are readily displayed with card lists, so even if they haven't printed Dark Confidant in over two years people are still seeing him and thus driving prices up.
3) No actively supported first party store fronts, forcing them to have to use MJ Holdings or other big box stores to sell MTG products in areas that lack a LGS. Speaking of which...
4) Horrible support for the backbone of their entire paper card game. Sweet merciful crap can these guys get off their high horse and look at how things are going down there? They badly need to rethink on how they plan to provide support for paper players, because what they are doing right now is pretty close to walmart employee level bad.
5) Shifting card power into tiers based on the power of the cards rather than archetype or if the card just accents a strategy. This basically is the same problem with the US Electoral districts and is part of the reason they need to do such high print runs to support constructed formats.
6) Getting way too involved in gender / racial politics. Basically, they are trying to create a positive company image, but by doing this they are also making people ask if there is a problem in the first place and magnifying it. This is especially true with how youtube gives a voice to hecklers and those that thrive on controversy.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If they were the equivalent of "scratch off tickets", you are not even guaranteed a rare. Each rare would also guarantee you a set value and this value would not fluctuate based on the supply/demand dynamic of a free market. This also implies each other card in the "scratch off ticket" has no intrinsic monetary value.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
Also masterpiece cards and previous type events.
I see what this is, your trying to say a rare is like a sheet of gold. Except you come up short again. First of all gold is more recognizable than a rare from a mtg set. To the average person, a rare has no value outside of MTG.
If you were to try and trade that dollar-bin rare into a card shop, you only get 20-50 cents in value of that rare. Where as with a lottery ticket you get exactly what the lottery ticket says, even if its just a dollar you get that whole dollar.
One mythic to another mythic has no more value than another as according to the manufacturers. To the free market they see a difference in value. The only thing separating a premium/foil from a non-premium/foil is a slightly increase in resources needing to be used to manufacture such a card.
In fact the only true gambling element called Ante was removed very early on in MTG's infancy. By the arrival of the set Alliances there were no more Ante cards.
To be fair if you brought in a nugget of gold worth $1000 you are not getting $1000 for it at any bank/pawnshop or smelter. You are getting a fraction of that value. You can easly view a LGS as a pawnshop where they take your valuable stuff and give you fraction of the value in money. They are afterall trying to resell it not the end consumer.
6) Getting way too involved in gender / racial politics. Basically, they are trying to create a positive company image, but by doing this they are also making people ask if there is a problem in the first place and magnifying it. This is especially true with how youtube gives a voice to hecklers and those that thrive on controversy.
It's the saddest thing. They're trying so very, very hard to create a positive image but they've bet on the wrong horse and they keep putting down more and more money on that horse. WotC seems to be unaware of the culture shift that's been happening over the past year(s). People have become fed up with identity politics, and people are using their wallets to show it. Look at Marvel Comics, which saw a massive drop in sales earlier this year. Look at Hollywood, which just had its worst summer in over two decades. (Note that this was even *before* Weinstein and the similar scandals.) The movies that did manage to do well generally 1) didn't have clear political overtones and 2) did have lead actors wise enough to keep their pie holes shut on the topic of politics. That Magic movie in the making? WotC has a bad rep when it comes to involvement in politics. That movie won't draw the numbers WotC hopes it'll draw.
What makes it even worse for WotC is that they have to draw their new players from Generation Z.
Generation Z has been described as the most conservative generation in over 80 years. It's the generation that's avoiding the most notoriously liberal colleges. It's the generation that mocks their Millenial teachers. It's also a very money-oriented and entrepeneurial generation that doesn't take any crap from anyone.
This is the generation WotC has to draw their new players from, and the positive company image WotC *thinks* it has is actually a pretty bad company image to have when trying to appeal to this generation.
This is very accurate. I think the far-left academia bubble has burst. Furthermore, the whole point of Magic is an outlet for nerdy people. If those people cannot be "insensitive" with their other nerdy friends at their LGS or online, it chills the desire for these types of people to bother. There are too many other games that are cheaper and less intrusive.
6) Getting way too involved in gender / racial politics. Basically, they are trying to create a positive company image, but by doing this they are also making people ask if there is a problem in the first place and magnifying it. This is especially true with how youtube gives a voice to hecklers and those that thrive on controversy.
It's the saddest thing. They're trying so very, very hard to create a positive image but they've bet on the wrong horse and they keep putting down more and more money on that horse. WotC seems to be unaware of the culture shift that's been happening over the past year(s). People have become fed up with identity politics, and people are using their wallets to show it. Look at Marvel Comics, which saw a massive drop in sales earlier this year. Look at Hollywood, which just had its worst summer in over two decades. (Note that this was even *before* Weinstein and the similar scandals.) The movies that did manage to do well generally 1) didn't have clear political overtones and 2) did have lead actors wise enough to keep their pie holes shut on the topic of politics. That Magic movie in the making? WotC has a bad rep when it comes to involvement in politics. That movie won't draw the numbers WotC hopes it'll draw.
What makes it even worse for WotC is that they have to draw their new players from Generation Z.
Generation Z has been described as the most conservative generation in over 80 years. It's the generation that's avoiding the most notoriously liberal colleges. It's the generation that mocks their Millenial teachers. It's also a very money-oriented and entrepeneurial generation that doesn't take any crap from anyone.
This is the generation WotC has to draw their new players from, and the positive company image WotC *thinks* it has is actually a pretty bad company image to have when trying to appeal to this generation.
This is very accurate. I think the far-left academia bubble has burst. Furthermore, the whole point of Magic is an outlet for nerdy people. If those people cannot be "insensitive" with their other nerdy friends at their LGS or online, it chills the desire for these types of people to bother. There are too many other games that are cheaper and less intrusive.
It's not that the bubble burst, it's that the far right has always played hard ball because it's their nature and that is the group that shows up on youtube a lot these days. Moderate people don't go yapping their mouths off every time someone posts something they don't agree with, but that isn't how the extremes on both ends work. Looking around the internet you'll find the quiet voices of people who actually think positively of wizards actions and wonder why these people are making all this noise when it's written in the terms of service where the lines in the sand are.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
6) Getting way too involved in gender / racial politics. Basically, they are trying to create a positive company image, but by doing this they are also making people ask if there is a problem in the first place and magnifying it. This is especially true with how youtube gives a voice to hecklers and those that thrive on controversy.
It's the saddest thing. They're trying so very, very hard to create a positive image but they've bet on the wrong horse and they keep putting down more and more money on that horse. WotC seems to be unaware of the culture shift that's been happening over the past year(s). People have become fed up with identity politics, and people are using their wallets to show it. Look at Marvel Comics, which saw a massive drop in sales earlier this year. Look at Hollywood, which just had its worst summer in over two decades. (Note that this was even *before* Weinstein and the similar scandals.) The movies that did manage to do well generally 1) didn't have clear political overtones and 2) did have lead actors wise enough to keep their pie holes shut on the topic of politics. That Magic movie in the making? WotC has a bad rep when it comes to involvement in politics. That movie won't draw the numbers WotC hopes it'll draw.
What makes it even worse for WotC is that they have to draw their new players from Generation Z.
Generation Z has been described as the most conservative generation in over 80 years. It's the generation that's avoiding the most notoriously liberal colleges. It's the generation that mocks their Millenial teachers. It's also a very money-oriented and entrepeneurial generation that doesn't take any crap from anyone.
This is the generation WotC has to draw their new players from, and the positive company image WotC *thinks* it has is actually a pretty bad company image to have when trying to appeal to this generation.
This is very accurate. I think the far-left academia bubble has burst. Furthermore, the whole point of Magic is an outlet for nerdy people. If those people cannot be "insensitive" with their other nerdy friends at their LGS or online, it chills the desire for these types of people to bother. There are too many other games that are cheaper and less intrusive.
It's not that the bubble burst, it's that the far right has always played hard ball because it's their nature and that is the group that shows up on youtube a lot these days. Moderate people don't go yapping their mouths off every time someone posts something they don't agree with, but that isn't how the extremes on both ends work. Looking around the internet you'll find the quiet voices of people who actually think positively of wizards actions and wonder why these people are making all this noise when it's written in the terms of service where the lines in the sand are.
Yes, using social media to gauge anything is useless.
Its all idle speculation because we cant see wether Wizards of the Coast is expanding or losing players.
Even the whole 8 million lost people comes from Mark Rosewater saying a number that didn't line up with a Guardian article.
There was a hipsters of the coast article stating 1 million DCI members but when I looked at the quarterly report they cited, no player numbers were listed.
There are not many voices on the middle who like this WOTC move, I believe. Its one thing to saw Jeremy was cruel, but another to ban him for wrongthink. People are not pleased, and they are also not pleased with the PC police at game stores. They want peace. Quiet land, quiet rule.
There are not many voices on the middle who like this WOTC move, I believe. Its one thing to saw Jeremy was cruel, but another to ban him for wrongthink. People are not pleased, and they are also not pleased with the PC police at game stores. They want peace. Quiet land, quiet rule.
Well, actually there's two sides to this coin. There are people that don't like the fact that WoTC is policing people based on their social media content, and then there are people that are upset wizards did this before trying to deal with cheating and other more tangential issues. Neither of those things actually have much to do with why WoTC banned Jeremy. Also this isn't really the place to discuss his situation, anyway. Not unless we want this going into another pointless political tug-o-war.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There are not many voices on the middle who like this WOTC move, I believe. Its one thing to saw Jeremy was cruel, but another to ban him for wrongthink. People are not pleased, and they are also not pleased with the PC police at game stores. They want peace. Quiet land, quiet rule.
Because of what? Some people on twitter or at the LGS? Many ancedotes =/= data, its just as bad as when Maro uses a poll he did on twitter/tumblr about an issue.
With out player data its impossible to say whats going on.
For a person locally it really only matters if player numbers goes up or down in their local area.
Doesnt matter if somewhere it goes up if the game dies slowly or fast in your area.
----
That said, the player base for me has a bunch of super loyal players, like myself that just keep playing and never stop, others quit the game for some time, years and might come back seemingly randomly, as they feel "hey why not" (that said, nothing WotC does, brings these players back, its literally random, as they have some time and just go attend a PreRelease again, from that point it matters how the set plays, they might stick to drafting or just leave again for years).
Ixalan right now actively drives players away in our local store.
They clearly state as a reason to not draft, they dont like Ixalan as a set and how it plays (the theme of pirates, dinos, vampires isnt the issue, its clearly how the set performance in how games just snowball, players hate that).
----
Gladly in Germany the internet drama is seemingly meaningless , the people that run the stores here do exactly what WotC "should" be doing, they ignore it and actually sell cards and make the game as fun as possible without messing with what players do outside of the game.
Dividing a community over some seemingly random non-existing issue is a total waste of time and in my real life experiences, magic worked totally fine without involving any politics, social stupidity and sexism in it for over 20 years ; that doesnt need to change i wouldnt want it to change.
For a person locally it really only matters if player numbers goes up or down in their local area.
Doesnt matter if somewhere it goes up if the game dies slowly or fast in your area.
----
That said, the player base for me has a bunch of super loyal players, like myself that just keep playing and never stop, others quit the game for some time, years and might come back seemingly randomly, as they feel "hey why not" (that said, nothing WotC does, brings these players back, its literally random, as they have some time and just go attend a PreRelease again, from that point it matters how the set plays, they might stick to drafting or just leave again for years).
Ixalan right now actively drives players away in our local store.
They clearly state as a reason to not draft, they dont like Ixalan as a set and how it plays (the theme of pirates, dinos, vampires isnt the issue, its clearly how the set performance in how games just snowball, players hate that).
----
Gladly in Germany the internet drama is seemingly meaningless , the people that run the stores here do exactly what WotC "should" be doing, they ignore it and actually sell cards and make the game as fun as possible without messing with what players do outside of the game.
Dividing a community over some seemingly random non-existing issue is a total waste of time and in my real life experiences, magic worked totally fine without involving any politics, social stupidity and sexism in it for over 20 years ; that doesnt need to change i wouldnt want it to change.
I mean with out any hard data we cant say if sets are well recieved or not, is Unstable really popular or is because a foil basic is 70$?
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Yes I would buy a ladder. Because the ladder store is merely a place that sells the product, they are not in charge of manufacturing the product. They might also sell older models to you as good will to you the customer and hope you return again.
Depends on the country, MTG ran into this problem before and by changing the text slightly it fit the country's standard of "not gambling".
Force of Will has done this with their "Vingolf" series. The Spoils tcg has done this with "Seed III: Fall of Marmotha" and their "Decade of Decadence" cube. Such products are referred to as fixed products. It has the qualities of a LCG while still having other products like TCG/CCG would. A fixed set could be of any size but the key factor is its not randomized. If WotC released a fixed set for Modern they probably could drive prices down for entry into the format to make it less intimidating for a new player who wants to buy a deck. Also remember that a fixed set is not a guarantee that that you get 4-of for each card, some offer 2-ofs and other times its even 1-ofs.
The other thing is this sort service is already done by others in the community at varying prices and varying rarities. Right now for instance you could buy a Complete set of Ixalan, 1 of each copy, for $110.
Yes, cheap fixed sets would help for older formats like that. Little Timmy can now just go buy a fixed set for one of those older formats and get everything they wanted and able to start for a reasonable price. If I recall correctly such fixed sets tend to go anywhere between $20-60 based on size. A living card game tends to sell its whole set for about 15-50$.
Also a living card game is not exempt from future sets and in fact can be affected by future living cards.
Fast forward to the current day and players and LGS are still trying to promote the game and help support it financially, but Wizards has completely backed out of their part. Instead of supporting stores and players they've increased the print runs, cut costs on materials, have put more and more product into big box stores when originally the only place to get products was through the LGS, and have been constantly messing with prize support. On top of which, their CEO appears to be lost in a fantasy land of some sort with believing the way to make the game better is to break into the uncanny valley with strange ethnic equality promotional material that has even been impacting some of the choices they've been making in the game. The reality is the fanbase just hasn't caught up to the realities of the shift in WoTC.
So in the case of the ladder store, I wouldn't buy faulty ladders. What I would be doing is going to the store and telling them the good brands that still work and don't potentially lead to a bunch of injuries, have them order those, and then buy those ladders instead. Why? Because if he swaps out of the bad brands now and has the brands that people know are good he can stay in business without having to support a dubious company that has made a promise that wont manifest for 2+ years. The entire point of what I'm trying to get at is that local game stores can survive without magic if the stores choose to and the players that spend money at those places give them the information they need to stay open. They have the power to choose to be a Pokemon store, a Bushi-road store, a Games workshop / Hobby store, etc.
It's not our fault if a store goes out of business because no one likes Wizards of the Coast and they are still trying to sell magic cards. Trying to keep them open by buying WoTC Products is not helping the store or oneself. Also, as far as vingolf like boxes go, even if we pushed wizards to do so right now via surveys and the like, they would over charge for it by huge margins because of the secondary market prices. I don't exactly agree with MtG Lion, but I agree that given WoTC has driven itself into a corner, doesn't have a clear way out, and it's going to take them forever to fix the issues they created for themselves that it's worth it to just walk away, at least temporarily.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What do you anticipate the market would do?
Have you seen Vingolf 3?
First, no, the set would not be 15 dollars because if it was like vingolf it would be 2 of each card of usually 25 cards plus 2 dual lands priced at around 50 dollars. Depending on print run, it would be sold on pre-order only and aftermarket boxes would be sold for around probably 80-120 usd depending on the run, but honestly your question is so far open and in the wild without any kind of context as to what cards you are referring to that I can't tell you what the market would do.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Depends on the print run. Vingolf 3 was a disaster because not enough of them were printed to satisfy even the pre-orders going out. There were several cases of people having their pre-orders cancelled because the stores literally couldn't get enough boxes.
It also depends on what is in the box. Going by what I think you really meant, I believe what you are looking for is a box of highly played cards in multiple formats, so lightning bolt, birds of paradise, maybe three big name cards like Karn Liberated, etc.
1) It's a print on demand product charged at MSRP of 50 usd: Pre-order prices would probably be stacked up, but because it's a race to the bottom even in a sealed product market the competition would drive the prices of the boxes down even with set high money cards. Also, that style of product would go into super markets so honestly, most people would just get them from the super market in that case.
2) It's like FTV or Vingolf 3... Just go to tcgplayer and look at the prices. No need to explain that.
The real problem in this entire thing is the lack of official wizards of the coast style stores like what Games Workshop has. As evil as those guys are sometimes, they have the better set up than WoTC to handle products in a controlled fashion. The only real outlet they got is MJ Holdings and big box retailers as far as forcing prices on products.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Another thing is Germany does not support WotC's big tournaments if the prizes are money as that would be associated with gambling.
Im talking about packs not tournaments.
They are basically scratch off tickets right? And other companies like McDonalds have no-purchase necessary clauses or else they would be considered gambling with their promotions.
Would you say the cards have an intrinsic financial value rather than a free market value? I wouldn't. They are all printed with the same resources regardless of rarity, except for foils which take slightly more resources and are listed as premium cards. Wizards does not dictate the value of an individual card.
A thin sheet of gold has no intrinsic value to the average person but if instead of a cash prize I offered a sheet of gold I dont think I could win the argument.
Wizards of the Coast knows and can control which cards are going to have the most demand by adjusting their powerlevel, I mean remember when Mythic rares were not going to be playset type cards and then Lotus Cobra and JTMS were printed like the next set?
Also masterpiece cards and previous type events.
If you were to try and trade that dollar-bin rare into a card shop, you only get 20-50 cents in value of that rare. Where as with a lottery ticket you get exactly what the lottery ticket says, even if its just a dollar you get that whole dollar.
One mythic to another mythic has no more value than another as according to the manufacturers. To the free market they see a difference in value. The only thing separating a premium/foil from a non-premium/foil is a slightly increase in resources needing to be used to manufacture such a card.
In fact the only true gambling element called Ante was removed very early on in MTG's infancy. By the arrival of the set Alliances there were no more Ante cards.
But the market is what determines everythings worth. The sheet of gold wasnt the best example because gold is one of the few things out there that is universally recognized as having worth.
An extremely rare stamp, a lay person might not understand the value but that doesnt mean it doesnt have value, even if that value is determined by the market.
Every set of magic is going to have x chase cards, wizards of the coast can manipulate that number through pushing certain cards power levels (or in even more flagrant examples such as the Zendikar adventure cards). Its just like casino adjusting the frequency and monetary value of its jackpot of a slot machines pay out, now wizards of the coast might not be able to set the exact amount of each pay out but it can determine which cards will be the "pay out".
The trouble I'm seeing with peoples discussion here is that the price of chase cards are not the only issue here. The reasons WoTC is getting trouble is a whole lot of "problems" that have accumulated due to shifts in artistic direction, card development, and card printings, as well as political stancing and a very shaky, uncontrollable support infrastructure run by third parties.
1) MTG has lost it's edge. The art isn't edgy or as punchy as it once was and has increasingly traded more powerful artistic direction for consistency. It's like they are actively trying for a PG rating when the game is PG-13. On the upside, the punchiness of the actual art has improved and mostly been mired by bad print issues. Speaking of which...
2) Card quality and print issues have severely damaged the game. It doesn't matter if a set corrected issues of washed out colors and picked punchy front pieces if the print facilities print the cards too dark, miss-cut the cards, or produce foils that bend so well that you'd think they were taking a hathaa Yoga class.
3) No control over the advertising of other formats. Sure they can push standard all they want, but if people like modern all the top decks are readily displayed with card lists, so even if they haven't printed Dark Confidant in over two years people are still seeing him and thus driving prices up.
3) No actively supported first party store fronts, forcing them to have to use MJ Holdings or other big box stores to sell MTG products in areas that lack a LGS. Speaking of which...
4) Horrible support for the backbone of their entire paper card game. Sweet merciful crap can these guys get off their high horse and look at how things are going down there? They badly need to rethink on how they plan to provide support for paper players, because what they are doing right now is pretty close to walmart employee level bad.
5) Shifting card power into tiers based on the power of the cards rather than archetype or if the card just accents a strategy. This basically is the same problem with the US Electoral districts and is part of the reason they need to do such high print runs to support constructed formats.
6) Getting way too involved in gender / racial politics. Basically, they are trying to create a positive company image, but by doing this they are also making people ask if there is a problem in the first place and magnifying it. This is especially true with how youtube gives a voice to hecklers and those that thrive on controversy.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To be fair if you brought in a nugget of gold worth $1000 you are not getting $1000 for it at any bank/pawnshop or smelter. You are getting a fraction of that value. You can easly view a LGS as a pawnshop where they take your valuable stuff and give you fraction of the value in money. They are afterall trying to resell it not the end consumer.
This is very accurate. I think the far-left academia bubble has burst. Furthermore, the whole point of Magic is an outlet for nerdy people. If those people cannot be "insensitive" with their other nerdy friends at their LGS or online, it chills the desire for these types of people to bother. There are too many other games that are cheaper and less intrusive.
It's not that the bubble burst, it's that the far right has always played hard ball because it's their nature and that is the group that shows up on youtube a lot these days. Moderate people don't go yapping their mouths off every time someone posts something they don't agree with, but that isn't how the extremes on both ends work. Looking around the internet you'll find the quiet voices of people who actually think positively of wizards actions and wonder why these people are making all this noise when it's written in the terms of service where the lines in the sand are.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes, using social media to gauge anything is useless.
Its all idle speculation because we cant see wether Wizards of the Coast is expanding or losing players.
Even the whole 8 million lost people comes from Mark Rosewater saying a number that didn't line up with a Guardian article.
There was a hipsters of the coast article stating 1 million DCI members but when I looked at the quarterly report they cited, no player numbers were listed.
Well, actually there's two sides to this coin. There are people that don't like the fact that WoTC is policing people based on their social media content, and then there are people that are upset wizards did this before trying to deal with cheating and other more tangential issues. Neither of those things actually have much to do with why WoTC banned Jeremy. Also this isn't really the place to discuss his situation, anyway. Not unless we want this going into another pointless political tug-o-war.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Because of what? Some people on twitter or at the LGS? Many ancedotes =/= data, its just as bad as when Maro uses a poll he did on twitter/tumblr about an issue.
With out player data its impossible to say whats going on.
Doesnt matter if somewhere it goes up if the game dies slowly or fast in your area.
----
That said, the player base for me has a bunch of super loyal players, like myself that just keep playing and never stop, others quit the game for some time, years and might come back seemingly randomly, as they feel "hey why not" (that said, nothing WotC does, brings these players back, its literally random, as they have some time and just go attend a PreRelease again, from that point it matters how the set plays, they might stick to drafting or just leave again for years).
Ixalan right now actively drives players away in our local store.
They clearly state as a reason to not draft, they dont like Ixalan as a set and how it plays (the theme of pirates, dinos, vampires isnt the issue, its clearly how the set performance in how games just snowball, players hate that).
----
Gladly in Germany the internet drama is seemingly meaningless , the people that run the stores here do exactly what WotC "should" be doing, they ignore it and actually sell cards and make the game as fun as possible without messing with what players do outside of the game.
Dividing a community over some seemingly random non-existing issue is a total waste of time and in my real life experiences, magic worked totally fine without involving any politics, social stupidity and sexism in it for over 20 years ; that doesnt need to change i wouldnt want it to change.
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I mean with out any hard data we cant say if sets are well recieved or not, is Unstable really popular or is because a foil basic is 70$?