They already tried that in the 90s. You had to had at least 5 (15? Don't remember exactly) cards from older sets than the current standard.
It didn't take off.
The bookkeeping and deck checking involved would be insane. Ever played pauper or peasant in real life? On of its hindrances to taking off is the deck checking involved. Your proposal is much more complicated than that.
Can't someone have 5 of the same card in a deck provided that that player makes sure to not play all 5 at the same time? At least with pauper or peasant, they only need to check for whether the deck has any gold or silver expansion symbols, not counting the very old stuff. If they can't do a deck check in pauper, what is stopping from someone running a 5 of?
I thought deck checkers had to look through the entire deck. The best they could do is to get the player to sort the deck by whether it is in standard or not, before presenting it to the deck checker. It's a lot easier if the expansion symbol was on the left side, or if the deck checker fans cards to the left revealing the expansion symbols.
If they have to check whether or not someone has a 5 of, don't they have to sort out the cards anyway?
They already tried that in the 90s. You had to had at least 5 (15? Don't remember exactly) cards from older sets than the current standard.
It didn't take off.
The bookkeeping and deck checking involved would be insane. Ever played pauper or peasant in real life? On of its hindrances to taking off is the deck checking involved. Your proposal is much more complicated than that.
Can't someone have 5 of the same card in a deck provided that that player makes sure to not play all 5 at the same time? At least with pauper or peasant, they only need to check for whether the deck has any gold or silver expansion symbols, not counting the very old stuff. If they can't do a deck check in pauper, what is stopping from someone running a 5 of?
I thought deck checkers had to look through the entire deck. The best they could do is to get the player to sort the deck by whether it is in standard or not, before presenting it to the deck checker. It's a lot easier if the expansion symbol was on the left side, or if the deck checker fans cards to the left revealing the expansion symbols.
If they have to check whether or not someone has a 5 of, don't they have to sort out the cards anyway?
The problem with deck checks in pauper is cards like Scion of the Wild. It is printed at common in MM15, but rare in both tenth and ravnica so if you are playing the ravnica one an uninformed individual will assume you're running an illegal card, but because it was printed at common it is legal regardless of which copy you use. The logistics of these types of checks pale in-comparison to "you must have 5 cards form one of these sets" due to similar cases such as the newly printed Opt, does it not count because you are using the invasion printing?
They already tried that in the 90s. You had to had at least 5 (15? Don't remember exactly) cards from older sets than the current standard.
It didn't take off.
The bookkeeping and deck checking involved would be insane. Ever played pauper or peasant in real life? On of its hindrances to taking off is the deck checking involved. Your proposal is much more complicated than that.
Can't someone have 5 of the same card in a deck provided that that player makes sure to not play all 5 at the same time? At least with pauper or peasant, they only need to check for whether the deck has any gold or silver expansion symbols, not counting the very old stuff. If they can't do a deck check in pauper, what is stopping from someone running a 5 of?
Bolded part is EXACTLY why pauper causes arguments and drama in real life. Some cards don't have the appropruate colored symbols.
Your proposal is worse, because aside from checking rarity, you have to check the set. "Oh, the necropotence (just an example) I'm using just has the ice age symbol, but I'm counting it as 5th ed for the purposes of deck construction. Except that 4th necro, also with ice age symbol, but I'm counting that from vintage masters." Now multiply that situation for every card not in standard.
Checking for 5 of is ridiculously simple in comparison.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
They already tried that in the 90s. You had to had at least 5 (15? Don't remember exactly) cards from older sets than the current standard.
It didn't take off.
The bookkeeping and deck checking involved would be insane. Ever played pauper or peasant in real life? On of its hindrances to taking off is the deck checking involved. Your proposal is much more complicated than that.
Can't someone have 5 of the same card in a deck provided that that player makes sure to not play all 5 at the same time? At least with pauper or peasant, they only need to check for whether the deck has any gold or silver expansion symbols, not counting the very old stuff. If they can't do a deck check in pauper, what is stopping from someone running a 5 of?
Bolded part is EXACTLY why pauper causes arguments and drama in real life. Some cards don't have the appropruate colored symbols.
Your proposal is worse, because aside from checking rarity, you have to check the set. "Oh, the necropotence (just an example) I'm using just has the ice age symbol, but I'm counting it as 5th ed for the purposes of deck construction. Except that 4th necro, also with ice age symbol, but I'm counting that from vintage masters." Now multiply that situation for every card not in standard.
Checking for 5 of is ridiculously simple in comparison.
The only cards that matter would be cards in standard reprinted from a set not in standard. Comparing let's say, a card in M15 with the same card in Apocalypse wouldn't matter because they all fall under the category of the 20 cards in your deck you may add that is out of standard.
If you do have a card from a set out of standard that is reprinted in standard, you must have at least one copy of the reprinted card in standard.
Ah, screw it. Just make the player use the reprinted copy.
This begs the question. How do deck checkers even check if a card is in standard or not? Maybe the player might slip in an out of standard card, arguing it was reprinted in standard? The same technique to check whether an entire deck is standard legal would be used to check whether at least 40 cards in the deck are standard legal.
This begs the question. How do deck checkers even check if a card is in standard or not? Maybe the player might slip in an out of standard card, arguing it was reprinted in standard? The same technique to check whether an entire deck is standard legal would be used to check whether at least 40 cards in the deck are standard legal.
1) set symbol, which can be determined at a glance.
2) if no set symbol/wrong symbol in the case of reprints, everyone in the vacinity (particuarly the judges) will immediately suspect a card NO ONE ELSE is using. You see a brainstorm in a standard deck? Everyone automatically notices. Someone sees an opt in your proposed format? Uh... Personally, I didn't know opt would be reprinted, and so I'd assume it was part of the "not in standard".
This begs the question. How do deck checkers even check if a card is in standard or not? Maybe the player might slip in an out of standard card, arguing it was reprinted in standard? The same technique to check whether an entire deck is standard legal would be used to check whether at least 40 cards in the deck are standard legal.
1) set symbol, which can be determined at a glance.
2) if no set symbol/wrong symbol in the case of reprints, everyone in the vacinity (particuarly the judges) will immediately suspect a card NO ONE ELSE is using. You see a brainstorm in a standard deck? Everyone automatically notices. Someone sees an opt in your proposed format? Uh... Personally, I didn't know opt would be reprinted, and so I'd assume it was part of the "not in standard".
So basically deck checkers and judges cannot tell at a glance if an old card reprinted in standard is in standard or not? The steps to check that the entire deck is standard legal will be the same as checking whether 40 cards in the deck are standard legal. All the player has to do is to separate the deck into a 40 20 split, with the 40 side containing all standard legal cards, and the 20 side containing everything else, whether it is standard legal or not. The player would provide the deck to the checker, and if the 40 card side is standard legal, the deck is legal. It doesn't matter what the rest of the deck contains.
A more futuristic method would be players have to enter a decklist into a computer program. The program determines if the deck is legal, and they must print out the decklist. They bring the decklist and the deck, and the deck checker only has to confirm if the deck matches the decklist. The decklist printed out would have some logos and visual cues to tell the deck checker that it is from the official program, and if the decklist is illegal, you won't be able to print the decklist, or there might be a huge background ILLEGAL on the page if you printed it.
40 20 are arbitrary numbers. I could easily do a 45 15 split. 45 cards must be standard legal, with basic lands counting as standard legal cards, and 15 can be from any set. If someone decides to run 25 basic lands, and run 15 non-standard legal cards, it means they must run 20 standard cards, thus favoring more heavily on standard legal cards, compared to the 40 20 split. If they want to run 20 non-basic lands, and 15 of them are not standard legal, it means that the rest of their deck must be standard legal.
75 card decks.
With a commander-esque legendary at the head of these decks.
Only can have commons and uncommons outside of your legendary.
While running around in planechase.
But this is also a 3-4 players as there is also archenemy.
But its also a draft format that incorporates conspiracies, unhinged, unglued and unstable cards.
With cubes.
And 15 card wish boards.
I wouldn't be surprised if the retroactivelly introduced BFZ and SOI blocks when they eventually make an "Arena" format in Arena. It does look like a much better software to deal with than MOL ever was from a developer perspective.
I think that if they do a format with Arena that is non-rotating they will just leave it at kaladesh forward. The developers and Wizards themselves have to have known the game would come out within a certain time span and that there was a good chance some sets would rotate before the game hit release. Plus, we all have our "pet sets" that we just kind of love. I've seen people want Theros and up in Frontier while others just want BFZ and up to avoid Kahn's Fetches.
Private Mod Note
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My bet is on a format starting with Magic Origins. It is just such a good starting point as the entire story arc of the Gatewatch started there and it would have the current card frame including the safety stamp.
This format also has no fetchlands .. which I guess is in Wizards interests.
Along with this new "Frontier" format (which wont be introduced though before Arena hits its first rotation, so in 2 years down line) they also must establish a new Eternal Format. Somewhat of a mixture between Legacy and Modern. Vintage will stay as it is.
To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't just a no reserved list card format since WoTC has been proving they are willing to reprint cards from the beginning era of Magic as well as just modern.
Private Mod Note
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My bet is on a format starting with Magic Origins. It is just such a good starting point as the entire story arc of the Gatewatch started there and it would have the current card frame including the safety stamp.
This format also has no fetchlands .. which I guess is in Wizards interests.
Along with this new "Frontier" format (which wont be introduced though before Arena hits its first rotation, so in 2 years down line) they also must establish a new Eternal Format. Somewhat of a mixture between Legacy and Modern. Vintage will stay as it is.
To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't just a no reserved list card format since WoTC has been proving they are willing to reprint cards from the beginning era of Magic as well as just modern.
Another format they could probably do for non-rotating is one where cards from a particular standard rotation can only be used with other cards in that rotation. That is probably the better option Wizards has given how they actually do set design and development. It allows for more variety in the decks players can play and expands the number of cards that are playable in the format, as well as grants the developers a bit more leeway with mechanics. Right now they basically have to design with modern in the back of their minds, which is why they've been moving towards calling mana egg tokens different things like Gold, Treasure, Etherium Cells, etc, as well as calling card draw tokens clues. It also helps alleviate the entire pump and dump cycle with standard cards. They'd probably have to make core sets legal across all decks to account for the fact a specific standard may not have an answer for a later or earlier one, but that's not really a huge downside.
Private Mod Note
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I would support a format where ALL cards printed with the M15 frame in ANY product are legal.
But I believe the next non-rotating format, if there is one, will be BFZ onwards and include only Standard sets.
This format would be dominated by Collected Company. Card is way above anything else theyve printed lately at 4 mana AND instant speed.
I would support a format where ALL cards printed with the M15 frame in ANY product are legal.
But I believe the next non-rotating format, if there is one, will be BFZ onwards and include only Standard sets.
This format would be dominated by Collected Company. Card is way above anything else theyve printed lately at 4 mana AND instant speed.
Actually the format is doing fine. My own group plays Frontier format since it's fairly diverse and not too difficult to get into with a lot of brewing space. Holy smokes does MTG goldfish murder that front list, though. Frontier is really more aggro vs control at the moment with a few mid-range builds lurking around. Jeskai Mid-range (or Thopter Meets Mantis as I like to call it) is pretty strong, mono-red aggro exists because it's like a cockroach that never dies, haven't seen a lot of Jund lately, and the deck that just cleaned house on everyone right now is actually this guy...
Yeah the format isn't as popular as modern here in the states, but I find it a lot less swingy and the sideboard is a lot easier to manage. Green feels like it is the color that gets left in the dust and I really want to try brewing up a good delirium list, but the clock that some of the other decks can put down is pretty hard to deal with.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I would support a format where ALL cards printed with the M15 frame in ANY product are legal.
But I believe the next non-rotating format, if there is one, will be BFZ onwards and include only Standard sets.
This format would be dominated by Collected Company. Card is way above anything else theyve printed lately at 4 mana AND instant speed.
If you mean BFZ onward format? Yeah so far that ***** would be CoCo vs Energy vs 4C Goostuff.
A format where ALL cards that have been printed since M15 in ANY product would be ******* fantastic even if the tutors, Mana Drain, Balance, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are immediate bans, Commander, Iconic Masters, Modern Masters, Eternal Masters, Duel Decks and Conspiracy would add so much great tech to Frontier
I would support a format where ALL cards printed with the M15 frame in ANY product are legal.
But I believe the next non-rotating format, if there is one, will be BFZ onwards and include only Standard sets.
This format would be dominated by Collected Company. Card is way above anything else theyve printed lately at 4 mana AND instant speed.
If you mean BFZ onward format? Yeah so far that ***** would be CoCo vs Energy vs 4C Goostuff.
A format where ALL cards that have been printed since M15 in ANY product would be ******* fantastic even if the tutors, Mana Drain, Balance, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are immediate bans, Commander, Iconic Masters, Modern Masters, Eternal Masters, Duel Decks and Conspiracy would add so much great tech to Frontier
In frontier right now CoCo shows up in abzan rally and that's about it. The main problem the format has is that since it is mostly played in Japan the deck brewing is much slower and no one really has figured out or answered the format yet. Atarka Red and Dark Jeskai are two of the most heavily played decks with rally combo in third and despite their dominant presence they still don't fill the top 8 very often in practice. Usually it's one of the less played decks that makes the top.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't think Frontier- or any other more recent format proposed- has any support amongst Modern or Legacy players, and without the support of them it is doomed. It has support from those who want to play eternal formats cheaply using the cards they happen to own, and at the moment there are simply not enough of them. With Modern prices much lower than 2015, say, there is no incentive for a new format for those who have the disposable income to buy into proven already existing formats, and especially for LGS stores running events there is no incentive to fragmentize their player base further. True casuals can always EDH, spikes and Jonnies have Legacy and Modern alike, those with no income have pauper. Trying to have a new format is trying to reinvent the dot com bubble. The aim of some- a cheap eternal format- is directly opposed to the aims of SCG, Wizards and LGS, not to mention those heavily invested in Modern and Legacy, so it will simply never happen.
We all know that those who invested in Modern from the start made a mint- I am one of them. To do so I took a risk- I sold out of standard and invested in a tiny new format at rock bottom prices. There is no similar situation today. It is not as if Frontier or similar was announced as a format many people would coincidentally own the cards and make a fortune, that would not happen as many people have kept cards they think will be good in such a format- Siege Rhino, Company etc. have been stored by many "just in case". They won't be skyrocketing in price in the way fetches did, the print runs were far too great. Attempts to create such a format by stores would be seen by many as a cynical "tiny leaders II". According to some eventually there will have to be a new format, and I agree. But it won't happen for ten years, if ever. Masters sets will continue to make money and cap Modern costs, without completely devaluing the format.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I don't think Frontier- or any other more recent format proposed- has any support amongst Modern or Legacy players, and without the support of them it is doomed. It has support from those who want to play eternal formats cheaply using the cards they happen to own, and at the moment there are simply not enough of them. With Modern prices much lower than 2015, say, there is no incentive for a new format for those who have the disposable income to buy into proven already existing formats, and especially for LGS stores running events there is no incentive to fragmentize their player base further. True casuals can always EDH, spikes and Jonnies have Legacy and Modern alike, those with no income have pauper. Trying to have a new format is trying to reinvent the dot com bubble. The aim of some- a cheap eternal format- is directly opposed to the aims of SCG, Wizards and LGS, not to mention those heavily invested in Modern and Legacy, so it will simply never happen.
We all know that those who invested in Modern from the start made a mint- I am one of them. To do so I took a risk- I sold out of standard and invested in a tiny new format at rock bottom prices. There is no similar situation today. It is not as if Frontier or similar was announced as a format many people would coincidentally own the cards and make a fortune, that would not happen as many people have kept cards they think will be good in such a format- Siege Rhino, Company etc. have been stored by many "just in case". They won't be skyrocketing in price in the way fetches did, the print runs were far too great. Attempts to create such a format by stores would be seen by many as a cynical "tiny leaders II". According to some eventually there will have to be a new format, and I agree. But it won't happen for ten years, if ever. Masters sets will continue to make money and cap Modern costs, without completely devaluing the format.
The devaluation of modern has a lot less to do with modern masters and a lot more with consumer confidence and reprints. Masters sets are designed to keep prices high on cards and make profit. Another interesting fact I just came across is that Iconic Masters is actually composed of cards that were originally intended to be Lottery cards in Ixalan. They actually don't want lottery cards because it doesn't help their margins so they got rid of lottery cards to make more masters sets apparently.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Interesting if true on the second point, I would like to know when they knew they were plug pulling on lottery cards.
Lottery cards just make drafts less worthwhile for nearly everyone apart from a tiny few. If you get a top standard mythic from a draft, and discover that it is five dollars and the other 23 boosters contribute a dollar rare, or you buy a box and have no lottery card in it, you feel miffed. Meanwhile some tool buys a case and gets a Foil Force of whatever, thinks they have done brilliantly, when in fact they are lucky to break even. It is only the person who opens 3 boosters at an FNM and pulls a masterpiece who actually gets lucky, it certainly cut my drafting in half. Lottery stuff was an attempt to reduce the cost of standard, without realising that what stops people playing Standard is more fundamental than cost- the spread of information leading to solved formats, mainly due to the existence of utterly misguided principles as to how standard should be, propagated by people like Sam Stoddard et al.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
My bet is on a format starting with Magic Origins. It is just such a good starting point as the entire story arc of the Gatewatch started there and it would have the current card frame including the safety stamp.
This format also has no fetchlands .. which I guess is in Wizards interests.
Along with this new "Frontier" format (which wont be introduced though before Arena hits its first rotation, so in 2 years down line) they also must establish a new Eternal Format. Somewhat of a mixture between Legacy and Modern. Vintage will stay as it is.
To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't just a no reserved list card format since WoTC has been proving they are willing to reprint cards from the beginning era of Magic as well as just modern.
Not commenting on your overall argument, or disagreeing with the sentiment that many of the reserved list cards are obsolete, but Prison pox always runs Cursed Scroll- pop on to the Pox thread and ask. The pure handkill versions of pox running racks and often bloodghasts [aggro pox, I guess] are less common than prison versions running a mixture of handkill, Mishras, Wastelands (often a Crucible) and other landkill. Pox is not a big percentage of the meta either way, it crops up in the KMC events from time to time, every now and then in paper events, especially outside the US. When it does it normally has combinations of Nethervoid, Chains of Mephistopheles and the Abyss, three more cards from the reserved list that see some small amount of play. Grim Monolith should be on the list of playables too, 12 Post and MUD always use it and it is RL, it is probably more common than Null Rod. You could argue that In the Eye of Chaos is playable, but no one ever plays it.
Null Rod is played in Czech Pile and Sultai Control/Midrange decks, even as a 1x - 2x that grants it more format presence than 12 Post and MUD combined do for Grim Monolith, since the former decks are actually popular.
Ultimatedly the point is that RL-less Legacy would ultimatedly be played because the decks that most people want to play in Legacy (Delver, Czech/Sultai goodstuff, D&T, Deathblade) pretty much don't lose anything but painless manabases and that can be solved by printing the damned Legendary Duals already. The people who claim "It'd just be Modern" don't know ***** about Legacy.
Interesting if true on the second point, I would like to know when they knew they were plug pulling on lottery cards.
Lottery cards just make drafts less worthwhile for nearly everyone apart from a tiny few. If you get a top standard mythic from a draft, and discover that it is five dollars and the other 23 boosters contribute a dollar rare, or you buy a box and have no lottery card in it, you feel miffed. Meanwhile some tool buys a case and gets a Foil Force of whatever, thinks they have done brilliantly, when in fact they are lucky to break even. It is only the person who opens 3 boosters at an FNM and pulls a masterpiece who actually gets lucky, it certainly cut my drafting in half. Lottery stuff was an attempt to reduce the cost of standard, without realising that what stops people playing Standard is more fundamental than cost- the spread of information leading to solved formats, mainly due to the existence of utterly misguided principles as to how standard should be, propagated by people like Sam Stoddard et al.
Well, ultimately from what I was understanding from the conversation, the reason they stopped doing Lotto cards and probably wont ever do them again, is because that the finance department loves the masters sets. They basically spend way less to make a lot more, which is why they are making a huge push to get magic into digital form. If they can sell packs of cards digitally, they don't have to pay to print the cards. It's not hard to move paper magic from the normal way people play to an enthusiast only market, either. Modern already is an enthusiasts only market. Most decks cost as much as a PS4 + TV setup and that isn't going into super high priced deck lists like Jund.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Null Rod is played in Czech Pile and Sultai Control/Midrange decks, even as a 1x - 2x that grants it more format presence than 12 Post and MUD combined do for Grim Monolith, since the former decks are actually popular.
Ultimatedly the point is that RL-less Legacy would ultimatedly be played because the decks that most people want to play in Legacy (Delver, Czech/Sultai goodstuff, D&T, Deathblade) pretty much don't lose anything but painless manabases and that can be solved by printing the damned Legendary Duals already. The people who claim "It'd just be Modern" don't know ***** about Legacy.
True, you do see Null Rod as a 1/2 of in those deck, in the UK in paper I see far fewer Czech Pile/BUG decks than the US or online, we tend to be far less blue than the US, especially in paper. I will undoubtedly see a 12 post or two at my next event. I get you point, and I do agree that it would not be Modern. I am not sure they would print those duals anymore than they would print a Tabernacle that causes sacrifice and tapped for mana or a black Chains without the milling guff. It would be nice if more people could play Legacy, not sure Wizards want it to happen.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
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Can't someone have 5 of the same card in a deck provided that that player makes sure to not play all 5 at the same time? At least with pauper or peasant, they only need to check for whether the deck has any gold or silver expansion symbols, not counting the very old stuff. If they can't do a deck check in pauper, what is stopping from someone running a 5 of?
I thought deck checkers had to look through the entire deck. The best they could do is to get the player to sort the deck by whether it is in standard or not, before presenting it to the deck checker. It's a lot easier if the expansion symbol was on the left side, or if the deck checker fans cards to the left revealing the expansion symbols.
If they have to check whether or not someone has a 5 of, don't they have to sort out the cards anyway?
Bolded part is EXACTLY why pauper causes arguments and drama in real life. Some cards don't have the appropruate colored symbols.
Your proposal is worse, because aside from checking rarity, you have to check the set. "Oh, the necropotence (just an example) I'm using just has the ice age symbol, but I'm counting it as 5th ed for the purposes of deck construction. Except that 4th necro, also with ice age symbol, but I'm counting that from vintage masters." Now multiply that situation for every card not in standard.
Checking for 5 of is ridiculously simple in comparison.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
The only cards that matter would be cards in standard reprinted from a set not in standard. Comparing let's say, a card in M15 with the same card in Apocalypse wouldn't matter because they all fall under the category of the 20 cards in your deck you may add that is out of standard.
If you do have a card from a set out of standard that is reprinted in standard, you must have at least one copy of the reprinted card in standard.
Ah, screw it. Just make the player use the reprinted copy.
This begs the question. How do deck checkers even check if a card is in standard or not? Maybe the player might slip in an out of standard card, arguing it was reprinted in standard? The same technique to check whether an entire deck is standard legal would be used to check whether at least 40 cards in the deck are standard legal.
1) set symbol, which can be determined at a glance.
2) if no set symbol/wrong symbol in the case of reprints, everyone in the vacinity (particuarly the judges) will immediately suspect a card NO ONE ELSE is using. You see a brainstorm in a standard deck? Everyone automatically notices. Someone sees an opt in your proposed format? Uh... Personally, I didn't know opt would be reprinted, and so I'd assume it was part of the "not in standard".
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
So basically deck checkers and judges cannot tell at a glance if an old card reprinted in standard is in standard or not? The steps to check that the entire deck is standard legal will be the same as checking whether 40 cards in the deck are standard legal. All the player has to do is to separate the deck into a 40 20 split, with the 40 side containing all standard legal cards, and the 20 side containing everything else, whether it is standard legal or not. The player would provide the deck to the checker, and if the 40 card side is standard legal, the deck is legal. It doesn't matter what the rest of the deck contains.
A more futuristic method would be players have to enter a decklist into a computer program. The program determines if the deck is legal, and they must print out the decklist. They bring the decklist and the deck, and the deck checker only has to confirm if the deck matches the decklist. The decklist printed out would have some logos and visual cues to tell the deck checker that it is from the official program, and if the decklist is illegal, you won't be able to print the decklist, or there might be a huge background ILLEGAL on the page if you printed it.
40 20 are arbitrary numbers. I could easily do a 45 15 split. 45 cards must be standard legal, with basic lands counting as standard legal cards, and 15 can be from any set. If someone decides to run 25 basic lands, and run 15 non-standard legal cards, it means they must run 20 standard cards, thus favoring more heavily on standard legal cards, compared to the 40 20 split. If they want to run 20 non-basic lands, and 15 of them are not standard legal, it means that the rest of their deck must be standard legal.
With a commander-esque legendary at the head of these decks.
Only can have commons and uncommons outside of your legendary.
While running around in planechase.
But this is also a 3-4 players as there is also archenemy.
But its also a draft format that incorporates conspiracies, unhinged, unglued and unstable cards.
With cubes.
And 15 card wish boards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That would be nice. I also hope that if Arena turns out well, they start including older sets as well a bit at a time.
To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't just a no reserved list card format since WoTC has been proving they are willing to reprint cards from the beginning era of Magic as well as just modern.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Basically it's the Dual Lands, Null Rod, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Moat, City of Traitors and Intuition. No other card sees play in any deck that's a relevant ammount of the meta.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This format would be dominated by Collected Company. Card is way above anything else theyve printed lately at 4 mana AND instant speed.
Actually the format is doing fine. My own group plays Frontier format since it's fairly diverse and not too difficult to get into with a lot of brewing space. Holy smokes does MTG goldfish murder that front list, though. Frontier is really more aggro vs control at the moment with a few mid-range builds lurking around. Jeskai Mid-range (or Thopter Meets Mantis as I like to call it) is pretty strong, mono-red aggro exists because it's like a cockroach that never dies, haven't seen a lot of Jund lately, and the deck that just cleaned house on everyone right now is actually this guy...
WR Control 11/19/2017.
Yeah the format isn't as popular as modern here in the states, but I find it a lot less swingy and the sideboard is a lot easier to manage. Green feels like it is the color that gets left in the dust and I really want to try brewing up a good delirium list, but the clock that some of the other decks can put down is pretty hard to deal with.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A format where ALL cards that have been printed since M15 in ANY product would be ******* fantastic even if the tutors, Mana Drain, Balance, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are immediate bans, Commander, Iconic Masters, Modern Masters, Eternal Masters, Duel Decks and Conspiracy would add so much great tech to Frontier
In frontier right now CoCo shows up in abzan rally and that's about it. The main problem the format has is that since it is mostly played in Japan the deck brewing is much slower and no one really has figured out or answered the format yet. Atarka Red and Dark Jeskai are two of the most heavily played decks with rally combo in third and despite their dominant presence they still don't fill the top 8 very often in practice. Usually it's one of the less played decks that makes the top.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
We all know that those who invested in Modern from the start made a mint- I am one of them. To do so I took a risk- I sold out of standard and invested in a tiny new format at rock bottom prices. There is no similar situation today. It is not as if Frontier or similar was announced as a format many people would coincidentally own the cards and make a fortune, that would not happen as many people have kept cards they think will be good in such a format- Siege Rhino, Company etc. have been stored by many "just in case". They won't be skyrocketing in price in the way fetches did, the print runs were far too great. Attempts to create such a format by stores would be seen by many as a cynical "tiny leaders II". According to some eventually there will have to be a new format, and I agree. But it won't happen for ten years, if ever. Masters sets will continue to make money and cap Modern costs, without completely devaluing the format.
The devaluation of modern has a lot less to do with modern masters and a lot more with consumer confidence and reprints. Masters sets are designed to keep prices high on cards and make profit. Another interesting fact I just came across is that Iconic Masters is actually composed of cards that were originally intended to be Lottery cards in Ixalan. They actually don't want lottery cards because it doesn't help their margins so they got rid of lottery cards to make more masters sets apparently.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Interesting if true on the second point, I would like to know when they knew they were plug pulling on lottery cards.
Lottery cards just make drafts less worthwhile for nearly everyone apart from a tiny few. If you get a top standard mythic from a draft, and discover that it is five dollars and the other 23 boosters contribute a dollar rare, or you buy a box and have no lottery card in it, you feel miffed. Meanwhile some tool buys a case and gets a Foil Force of whatever, thinks they have done brilliantly, when in fact they are lucky to break even. It is only the person who opens 3 boosters at an FNM and pulls a masterpiece who actually gets lucky, it certainly cut my drafting in half. Lottery stuff was an attempt to reduce the cost of standard, without realising that what stops people playing Standard is more fundamental than cost- the spread of information leading to solved formats, mainly due to the existence of utterly misguided principles as to how standard should be, propagated by people like Sam Stoddard et al.
Not commenting on your overall argument, or disagreeing with the sentiment that many of the reserved list cards are obsolete, but Prison pox always runs Cursed Scroll- pop on to the Pox thread and ask. The pure handkill versions of pox running racks and often bloodghasts [aggro pox, I guess] are less common than prison versions running a mixture of handkill, Mishras, Wastelands (often a Crucible) and other landkill. Pox is not a big percentage of the meta either way, it crops up in the KMC events from time to time, every now and then in paper events, especially outside the US. When it does it normally has combinations of Nethervoid, Chains of Mephistopheles and the Abyss, three more cards from the reserved list that see some small amount of play. Grim Monolith should be on the list of playables too, 12 Post and MUD always use it and it is RL, it is probably more common than Null Rod. You could argue that In the Eye of Chaos is playable, but no one ever plays it.
Ultimatedly the point is that RL-less Legacy would ultimatedly be played because the decks that most people want to play in Legacy (Delver, Czech/Sultai goodstuff, D&T, Deathblade) pretty much don't lose anything but painless manabases and that can be solved by printing the damned Legendary Duals already. The people who claim "It'd just be Modern" don't know ***** about Legacy.
It's easy to implement, and could be the official version of "Frontier" in a few years.
Well, ultimately from what I was understanding from the conversation, the reason they stopped doing Lotto cards and probably wont ever do them again, is because that the finance department loves the masters sets. They basically spend way less to make a lot more, which is why they are making a huge push to get magic into digital form. If they can sell packs of cards digitally, they don't have to pay to print the cards. It's not hard to move paper magic from the normal way people play to an enthusiast only market, either. Modern already is an enthusiasts only market. Most decks cost as much as a PS4 + TV setup and that isn't going into super high priced deck lists like Jund.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
True, you do see Null Rod as a 1/2 of in those deck, in the UK in paper I see far fewer Czech Pile/BUG decks than the US or online, we tend to be far less blue than the US, especially in paper. I will undoubtedly see a 12 post or two at my next event. I get you point, and I do agree that it would not be Modern. I am not sure they would print those duals anymore than they would print a Tabernacle that causes sacrifice and tapped for mana or a black Chains without the milling guff. It would be nice if more people could play Legacy, not sure Wizards want it to happen.