Actually, the bigger problem was the lack of confidence the invocations brought to the stores. Prices basically free fell on even mythic cards if they didn't see significant play. Because of this, single sellers bought and cracked less on the later sets that continued the trend with the invocations / expeditions. Also stores had to bull rush to beat the post release price drops across the board.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah, I still struggle to see how Masterpieces were anything but a resounding success.
They were in every way except for the one that mattered most to me, the player: They were all ugly.
But the inventions were so pretty D:
Were they? I hated the aesthetic of the filigree card frame and the art that looks so out of place with the rest of magic. I mean, sure it fits in with Kaladesh but it doesn't fit with any other set.
Yeah, I still struggle to see how Masterpieces were anything but a resounding success.
They were in every way except for the one that mattered most to me, the player: They were all ugly.
But the inventions were so pretty D:
Were they? I hated the aesthetic of the filigree card frame and the art that looks so out of place with the rest of magic. I mean, sure it fits in with Kaladesh but it doesn't fit with any other set.
Understand that this is a subjective position on which many players disagree with you.
1. Wotc has no actual control - they do whatever hasbro tells them. Hasbro says jump, WOTC says how high. Hasbro says reprint rare cards in 10 dollar packs, WOTC says how many sets?
2. MTG is a business FIRST. Expect this to continue forever because the masters sets have been a HUGE Success from a financial POV. MTG is one of the FEW brands carrying Hasbro. They will continue with everything theyve done lately because its led to more sealed product being sold.
1. Wotc has no actual control - they do whatever hasbro tells them. Hasbro says jump, WOTC says how high. Hasbro says reprint rare cards in 10 dollar packs, WOTC says how many sets?
2. MTG is a business FIRST. Expect this to continue forever because the masters sets have been a HUGE Success from a financial POV. MTG is one of the FEW brands carrying Hasbro. They will continue with everything theyve done lately because its led to more sealed product being sold.
Pretty much this. Also, Wizards themselves prefer to build sets based on the draft and sealed experience over the player driven constructed form of play, despite actively supporting such player driven efforts for marketing reasons. The very big reason they do this is due to how playable the game is in that form vs the constructed one and the learning curve as well as financial curve involved. Constructed magic has a very big gap between the worst case scenario and the best case scenario, which makes it easy for someone to just walk into a game and just get steam rolled. Limited formats tend to have a closer gap between worst case and best case, which results in an overall better gaming experience.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The first thing you should keep in mind is that more and more people are interested in MTG which makes the prices for good cards much more prone to price increases. However, there are reasons why WOtC doesn't do more to counterbalance this.
Because of how big the company is, WOtC has certain obligations with the federal trade commission to uphold the net value of people's equal investment opportunities in cards which resemble property investments such as coins or precious metals. Old cards get worn out, so they need to be reprinted so that old formats don't die out entirely and become useless, but they can't be reprinted too much or collectors/players will lose too much money from their purchase, so it helps to have new sets which create a new(ish) kind of product to be invested in, and one that is beyond current counterfeiting methods. Despite that WOtC is acting legally, if enough people complain about the economic loss of investment due to WOtC's direct management of the company, they get penalized. The best option is then to reprint only just enough such that there is no negative net effect on the card market. One version of an old skool op card will be worth more, some others less, but enough to maintain the former net effect of those core cards on the market. Keep in mind however that this is generally only predictable for older staple cards. Everyone always wants dual lands, and as a consequence dual lands have had very steady and predictable price growth.
Secondly, counterfeiting is more common. WOtC know and individual vendors know this, so they are especially hesitant to print enough to lower the price for many people. It is dangerous to their market to reprint too many of a card due to the easy tendency of oversupply, but these fears are justified in looking at past fiascos such as sports cards. In the old days when sports cards were popular, the manufacturers printed however many people wanted. Because of this, vendors and private collectors bought out as many as they could to sell themselves, which in turn signaled the manufacturers to produce more. Eventually, this cycle repeated until formerly $20 cards became so oversupplied that they are now worth less than one penny. By WOtC intentionally limiting the supply and also consequently keeping the price high, even though it's a real bummer for a lot of people, it makes it much more difficult for individuals to control the market and cause that same kind of debacle.
When you consider these two things, remember that problem for standard in particular also that these expensive cards go out of rotation, which causes people to lose on their investment. The "price soak" effect mentioned was anticipated. WOtC already knows many serious standard/draft players will spend a lot on the format. This allows worn-out EDH/modern/legacy/vintage cards to get reprinted and enter circulation while simultaneously making the more creative and less long-term cards more readily available than if people weren't interested in the master cards, so serious standard players actually get a better investment for when their standard sets are out of rotation when they have their op EDH/modern/legacy/vintage cards leftover. It also gives these same standard players more of a gateway into the other higher power level formats that depend on more cards. It seems to be an experimental tactic overall, but they are trying to taking multiple issues at once that have been brought up by the user community. They only reason people aren't satisfied is because WOtC only cares about the overall net effect, so it doesn't matter if many individuals are disappointed as long as their card market remains stable. As with most large game formats, the actions largely revolve around the top 10% of serious/active players as those players are more responsible for supporting the game's economy, but occasionally the greater bulk of players can also have an impact.
mtgsalaccount, Wizards has no obligations on singles prices because they don't sell singles, they sell sealed products. They have obligations towards the prices of booster boxes and the like, which is why we can never see a true repeat run of a prior set and only see new ones with remixed cards, but that is different from the singles market. The singles market is a completely unregulated thing and it would be very difficult to even begin to regulate it from what I understand from a few people who are far more well versed in this than I am.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for example was able to push 25+ dollars even in the heat of box openings because he was insanely good, but started at 15 dollars, and now on rotation his price is 8-9 dollars, but if the price were regulated and he has to be sold legally at 15 dollars, that isn't exactly good while he is still in a shifting meta. I think that regulation would be good post rotation when the dust settles because having all the cards sell out would be better than having it linger and just increase in price constantly. That's largely been the problem with Modern in that the market creates an illusion of availability that really isn't there.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
mtgsalaccount, Wizards has no obligations on singles prices because they don't sell singles, they sell sealed products.
WOtC can clearly control the volume of cards in the market with new sets and reprints to the extent that they can regulate counterfeits, and I'm sure you don't really think they are so careless as to ignore the singles market, like with all the thousands of card vendors they distribute to every year. They might not have formal obligations at this moment, but they are well aware that the FTC will easily get involved if the economic loss due to WOTC's mismanagement is high enough.
You say that it would be better to have all cards sell out, and yet if that happened, everyone who ever invested in the game in any way would stand to lose a significant amount of money, and furthermore people would refrain from reinvesting in it while knowing that everything they buy is worthless. Economically, it clearly isn't rational to be greedy as you can sell more products with a lower price, and they certainly don't have a monopoly on the entertainment industry. And yet, they still persist, so this issue is about something more complex than that. There's a reason why it's called a "collectible" card game, and at its core it's not much different than what most governments due with minted coins. The goal of WoTC is not to ensure that everyone who wants specific cards gets those specific cards, it's to provide an investment, like art, that can second as a form of entertainment and/or experience for extra utility, which admittedly may make it better than an actual painting for some people.
Mtgsalaccount you are missing the entire point here. It's not about "wizards is responsible for the prices of cards and they are aware of what needs to be reprinted due to demand on the singles market, therefore they should be responsible for managing singles prices effectively". What you brought up is "wizards is legally and directly responsible for singles prices on the secondary market and should be obligated to regulate those prices on the threat of legal action". My contention with your original statement is that the latter is totally and completely false. They have no such legal obligation and it would be fighting a losing battle to try and make them legally responsible for singles prices because the company can outright say they do not sell single cards. What the company sells are lotto ticket booster pack items and pre-constructed starting products. The people setting the value on the singles are the stores that sell singles, and those stores are not composed of a singular entity.
Legal crazy stuff aside, I'm not happy about them axing Masterpieces because we basically are going back to square one with JTMS level prices on a few select mythics. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar would have pushed 40+ easily in a set that didn't have expeditions. We're about to enter some serious pay to win insanity in this game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My contention with your original statement is that the latter is totally and completely false.
As I already said, it is beyond doubt that WoTC has the capability to directly influence this market, even to the extent that it's as close to collusion as they can be without directly ordering people to set the price. They know how their own game works, they know what combos work well with each other, they test play everything before releasing it, they monitor what cards people use in tournaments. If enough people complain about losses though, it's WoTC who fights the losing battle. It doesn't matter if a company breaks the law or not, if their actions are knowingly any kind of impactful detriment to the country's economy, the issue is taken seriously and they stand to be penalized. BP didn't "break the law" by leaking oil into the gulf coast, and even though they were being grossly irresponsible, they calculated it was rational for them be as such for the profit of their business, and yet I am sure you are well aware they paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in settlements (which are still underestimates of the damage) to affected people. WoTC knows they have to be careful, and this context is more understandable when you think of magic as being centered around "collecting" and not around "playing the game."
Yeah, I still struggle to see how Masterpieces were anything but a resounding success.
They were in every way except for the one that mattered most to me, the player: They were all ugly.
But the inventions were so pretty D:
Were they? I hated the aesthetic of the filigree card frame and the art that looks so out of place with the rest of magic. I mean, sure it fits in with Kaladesh but it doesn't fit with any other set.
Understand that this is a subjective position on which many players disagree with you.
I do. I just don't care. The Inventions had ugly art, the invocations had ugly frames and the expeditions were just so...Zendikar.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
I can see how someone would hate the idea of a super ultra omega mythic rarity card, but how is the new art not more cool looking? I'd definitely trade in that old pencil sketch arcbound and chalice of the void for the new ones. Although new sword of fire and ice is dumb af.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
I actually like the Inventions but completely agree on the Invocations - they look nothing like a Magic card, are hard to read, and just plain butt-ugly. I got so sick of seeing them pop up from card tags that I looked up how to card tag specific printings just to avoid them. The only good thing that came about from that hard to read fiasco is Hazoret the Pervert - and that's pretty sad.
As for the thread topic - would it benefit Wizards in any way to flood the market with cards and crash the secondary market? Maybe during the initial flood, but that would be a short-term gain with long-reaching afterquakes.
Their entire business model is designed after some cards being more powerful than others or more rare than others. That model is part of what creates demand. It also creates the excitement of cracking packs for some people - it's a bit of a gambler's high when they crack a pack and find that one really awesome card they've been looking for.
Are there other models? Absolutely, many of which involve sealed product where every card is equally available - you buy the expansion, you own every card. Those models are so radically different, though, that the infrastructure built by Wizards over the last 24 years probably couldn't support it. It's a much simpler model, where each player has no real incentive to by more than one of each product. The MTG model rewards players for buying more volume.
So, again, they flood the market with reprints to drop prices, crashing the secondary market. Players buy it all up, making lots of money for Wizards, but it doesn't hold value. Players lose the high of cracking packs and don't open as much because they can no longer hope to open a $4 pack to get a $40 card. Sales dwindle. the business model has cut its own feet off.
I'm not saying I like everything about the model - I sure wish I could get some cards a lot cheaper as I have a very limited budget for this game. But I realize any attempt to dramatically change it could backfire. And I think Wizards is a lot less inclined to "control" the secondary market than to occasionally profit from it. Every once in a while reprinting a high value card is a lot different from flooding the market with all the things, as some people want to promote.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
I can see how someone would hate the idea of a super ultra omega mythic rarity card, but how is the new art not more cool looking? I'd definitely trade in that old pencil sketch arcbound and chalice of the void for the new ones. Although new sword of fire and ice is dumb af.
The Mirrodin Ravager looked like a little beast just yearning to break out of the frame. I think it perfectly captured the card. It's a 1/1 with a gaping maw that will grow if you leave it unchecked. Complete with the classic arc-bound look of flowing energy between the segments that all the old modular cards had. The "pencil sketch" of the old card is just proof that we're zoomed in as the bonds have washed out the background. Even it's weakness is a strength. The masters Ravager was what I expected from a fan of the card. This isn't the macro-shot of the old little ravvy, this is one that's been fed after midnight and look at it crawl over the horizon and terrify the prey before it. Then we come to the masterpiece, cloaked in darkness devoid of character held together by lightning, now using a more literal meaning for "arc-bound". Is this a cat? Is it hungry? Or is it just stretching out because the sun has moved across the window and now the cat needs to find a new spot to nap? It's a creature from Mirrodin, but it's all dressed up in the Kaladesh filigree.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
I actually like the Inventions but completely agree on the Invocations - they look nothing like a Magic card, are hard to read, and just plain butt-ugly. I got so sick of seeing them pop up from card tags that I looked up how to card tag specific printings just to avoid them. The only good thing that came about from that hard to read fiasco is Hazoret the Pervert - and that's pretty sad.
I also didn't like the Invocation style when Amonkhet came out. Then the Hour of Devastation invocations got spoiled, and almost all of them were worthy of an Esper control deck, and I decided to make Oloro control w/invocations, masterpieces, and expeditions. Now that I've built it, I can say that I still don't like the look of a one-off invocation in a deck, but when there's a bunch of them together, they don't stick out like a sore thumb.
For the record, I agree 200% with NimblestMongoose. I don't like the Inventions art either and the Invocations are even worst. I thought these cards wouldn't upset me as I didn't intent on buying or chasing any of them, but every time that crap shows up in the card links on this forum, my hate levels on them rise, to the point I now actually loathe them all.
I can see how someone would hate the idea of a super ultra omega mythic rarity card, but how is the new art not more cool looking? I'd definitely trade in that old pencil sketch arcbound and chalice of the void for the new ones. Although new sword of fire and ice is dumb af.
The Mirrodin Ravager looked like a little beast just yearning to break out of the frame. I think it perfectly captured the card. It's a 1/1 with a gaping maw that will grow if you leave it unchecked. Complete with the classic arc-bound look of flowing energy between the segments that all the old modular cards had. The "pencil sketch" of the old card is just proof that we're zoomed in as the bonds have washed out the background. Even it's weakness is a strength. The masters Ravager was what I expected from a fan of the card. This isn't the macro-shot of the old little ravvy, this is one that's been fed after midnight and look at it crawl over the horizon and terrify the prey before it. Then we come to the masterpiece, cloaked in darkness devoid of character held together by lightning, now using a more literal meaning for "arc-bound". Is this a cat? Is it hungry? Or is it just stretching out because the sun has moved across the window and now the cat needs to find a new spot to nap? It's a creature from Mirrodin, but it's all dressed up in the Kaladesh filigree.
If it's bound by lightning then the new one makes sense. The modular component of it is its energy, the lightning, which can quickly zoom to a different artifact-creature, explaining the instant-speed at which it can use its ability. Metallic entities of metal that feed on electricity also don't necessarily need to "eat," so the premise that it needs a maw just makes it less sophisticated. The old arcbound looks like a phantom rock chunk, but the fact that the new one appears more synthetic and devoid of character accurately captures its robotic aspects.
The MSRP of these products needs to be checked. I am mostly here from the standpoint of the masters sets. There needs to be a little bit of expected gain from these rather than an expected loss.
The availability of products needs to be improved. I am mostly on FTV, Judge, and Invention products here. I wish judges were actually properly rewarded but seeing as thats unlikely to change, perhaps try to give out more copies of these cards to judges. I would like a higher circulation of those cards if possible. You could also make the Inventions more common assuming you continue to do that (I know they had mentioned they probably are not for now).
Stop going so close on the current price tag of things. It feels like the selection of precon decks and masters products are so closely monitored that there is very little gain for players. In a lot of cases, we need to bring price tags down and establish new prices because of buyouts on stupid cards. Captain Sissay does not need to be a $45 card. In a lot of cases the current price tags of cards is dictated by how many times it has been printed and how old it is. Sol Ring would easily be a $100 card right now if they had not printed it into the ground. I am fine with it being a sub $5.00 card but how is it fair that it keeps getting reprinted because its cheap when another card is expensive only because its been forever since it has seen print???
While this thread is clearly derailed a bit by the discussion of the desirability of the masterpiece series, I think you're original point is based on a fundamental misunderstanding.
You want the Expected Value of a box to be a positive, and that just is never going to happen in the long term. Not because of choices that Wizards (or Hasbro) makes, but because prices will shift and continue to shift until we are back to where we are. It does not matter how valuable the cards being printed are, between stores charging above MSRP and single prices dropping, the EV of the box will equalize. There are obviously inefficiencies that mean there will be brief periods where that EV is out of balance, but it all balances out eventually. (The reason this balance is a lower EV than an equal EV - the nonmonetary value of sealed packs for drafting, that is lost <or used> when opening the box for singles).
Beyond that, the special versions (Judge Foils, FTVs, Masterpieces) - If you think the goal of these things is to drive down prices, then yes, they need a higher availability. Right now they seem to have little to no impact on the prices of the card. That said, these seem to have more meaning as collectibles and specialty items then as options for price manipulation. And since your argument is that Wizards is controlling the secondary market, and these currently do not significantly alter the secondary market, I'm having trouble seeing why they need to change.
Secondly, counterfeiting is more common. WOtC know and individual vendors know this, so they are especially hesitant to print enough to lower the price for many people. It is dangerous to their market to reprint too many of a card due to the easy tendency of oversupply, but these fears are justified in looking at past fiascos such as sports cards. In the old days when sports cards were popular, the manufacturers printed however many people wanted. Because of this, vendors and private collectors bought out as many as they could to sell themselves, which in turn signaled the manufacturers to produce more. Eventually, this cycle repeated until formerly $20 cards became so oversupplied that they are now worth less than one penny. By WOtC intentionally limiting the supply and also consequently keeping the price high, even though it's a real bummer for a lot of people, it makes it much more difficult for individuals to control the market and cause that same kind of debacle.
Referring to the part in bold.. if that thing ever happened to mtg, it could be the beginning of the end. I have a fear of that day.. so eventhough I want some card prices to be lowered a bit - for example, I still don't want WoTC to re-print Tarmogoyf and LoTV too many times that their price become only a few dollars.
Wizards need to get over their fear of occasional reprints in Standard legal sets of high value strong cards. The reprint in Theros of Thoughtseize was a resounding success for Modern and Legacy players. The card went down, but only to 10$, and is now at a sensible price, as befits a premium rare now oop, whilst the original is worth more still. A few people who bought at the height of the pre reprint market got burnt, but their Lorwyn cards are still worth a significant amount, and they probably knew that they were paying OTT.
The same is true of fetch land KTK reprints. The original price tanked to reasonable levels, remained respectable and slowly climbed. Very few people lost money on polluted delta- if they bought a Delta in 2005 or 2010 they did not lose. They have remained highly sought after and trade-able through out. Both are examples of successful reprints of value cards.
Masterpieces were a resounding failure from the POV of a Modern or Legacy player. They have helped EDH players with deep pockets and the need to pimp decks out, but they have done nothing to drop prices of anything bar Standard, the numbers have not been large enough to drop the price of the originals in the case of the good cards that people want form older formats. Price may have been a barrier to Standard entry, and they helped reduce that, but for most Modern and especially Legacy players, Standard being Standard with its design principles is a much, much bigger one. Good riddance to masterpieces, sucking the value out of boosters just made me draft less and do less sealed.
Now you could argue that TS and fetches have ruined their Standards, but given that recent Standards have been dire and needing multiple fixings, you could easily argue that incompetence and a desire to appeal to newbies has ruined Standards just as much as trying to appeal to Modern players by including overpowered reprints. Now that they have banned so many cards, surely it is time to use standard as a reprint vehicle once again- they have shown that you can reprint a 60$ card without it ending up at pennies, and a few years later it will be still very valuable. If they reprint a Thoughtseize Mk II they can always ban it and at least the people who own it will still have a decent asset long term. They have shown a willingness to reprint medium value cards such as Aven Mindcensor, I am hoping they go a step further and reprint the odd Crucible or Chalice properly, rather than sticking them into Masterpieces and satisfying nobody other than the sod who opens it. I am not talking about every expensive card, or even one a set, but one a year is not unreasonable. The prospect of a reprint can prevent cards climbing too high. We have already seen reprints in Masters sets just for value- nobody ever played Daybreak Coronet in limited in its Masters set as there were so few enchantments in the set- it is time to put the odd one into Standard again.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
They tried doing an experiment in theros with thoughtseize as a small scale attempt to reprint a high value card and then tried a modern playable mainstream land set in Kahns. The issue is that they drive the cost of standard constructed play through the roof.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They tried doing an experiment in theros with thoughtseize as a small scale attempt to reprint a high value card and then tried a modern playable mainstream land set in Kahns. The issue is that they drive the cost of standard constructed play through the roof.
Fetchland reprints alone didn't drive the cost of standard up. When BFZ came with the fetchable battle lands, that drove the prices of both fetches and standard up to ridiculous levels. As long as there are no dual lands with basic land types, you could reprint fetchlands into standard without worrying about driving the price of standard up. Here's an article with data that supports this: Saffron Olive's article
The Masterpiece series is an interesting thing. It didn't serve as a price mover on the cards it reprinted. What it did do, is serve as a price mover on all of the cards in the set with it. Basically, set values are relatively constant. Since the masterpiece series ate up a chunk of that set value (20-25%, give or take), that lowered the price of the rest of the set. Masterpiece Mana Vaults and Sol Rings meant little to the price of Mana Vault and Sol Ring, but resulted in cheaper Aetherworks Marvel and other Kaladesh cards (and cheaper standard decks too).
Reprinting expensive cards as Standard legal is great, when it doesn't screw up Standard. When it works, you have something like Khans Standard, which results in cheap standard, lower priced fetches for Modern and Eternal players, and happy everybody. When you break it, you have BFZ standard, which results in skyrocketing prices for both Standard and fetches, resulting in unhappy Standard players and minimal benefit to the Modern and Eternal players. And I can't see Wizards choosing to walk into bannings in order to do the reprint thing with a card that will break Standard and need to be banned to prevent the negative.
They tried doing an experiment in theros with thoughtseize as a small scale attempt to reprint a high value card and then tried a modern playable mainstream land set in Kahns. The issue is that they drive the cost of standard constructed play through the roof.
Fetchland reprints alone didn't drive the cost of standard up. When BFZ came with the fetchable battle lands, that drove the prices of both fetches and standard up to ridiculous levels. As long as there are no dual lands with basic land types, you could reprint fetchlands into standard without worrying about driving the price of standard up. Here's an article with data that supports this: Saffron Olive's article
The Masterpiece series is an interesting thing. It didn't serve as a price mover on the cards it reprinted. What it did do, is serve as a price mover on all of the cards in the set with it. Basically, set values are relatively constant. Since the masterpiece series ate up a chunk of that set value (20-25%, give or take), that lowered the price of the rest of the set. Masterpiece Mana Vaults and Sol Rings meant little to the price of Mana Vault and Sol Ring, but resulted in cheaper Aetherworks Marvel and other Kaladesh cards (and cheaper standard decks too).
Reprinting expensive cards as Standard legal is great, when it doesn't screw up Standard. When it works, you have something like Khans Standard, which results in cheap standard, lower priced fetches for Modern and Eternal players, and happy everybody. When you break it, you have BFZ standard, which results in skyrocketing prices for both Standard and fetches, resulting in unhappy Standard players and minimal benefit to the Modern and Eternal players. And I can't see Wizards choosing to walk into bannings in order to do the reprint thing with a card that will break Standard and need to be banned to prevent the negative.
Printing Zendikar Fetchlands into standard would increase the mana base costs tremendously with or without the fetchable BFZ lands or shock lands. The main problem in that particular case is that the lands are known to be good and are in extremely high demand in modern. The lowest cost of the Kahns fetchlands was about 10-15 dollars and hovered around 20-30 when the lands were in standard. The Zendikar ones went down to maybe the 30-40 dollar range with modern masters 2017, and if they tried to put them into a standard set the cards would likely be even higher than that. The Lorwyn / Elwyn filter lands and the shock lands are much safer reprints, as the former are only really used casually for the most part and the latter are rather heavily printed already (and need to stay that way with more reprintings as they are starting to climb again).
I'm not saying you are incorrect on the assessment and I agree with S.Os article. Just when it comes to really high priced cards like Engineered Explosives, Scalding Tarn, etc, those are so high up there that the bottom is going to be much higher on those cards compared to others.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Bloodstained Mire was cheaper than the cheapest Shocklands for a couple months. And THS/KTK was the second cheapest Standard to date until BFZ/AKH. It was the Battle Lands and being able to run both Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in every deck that ruined everything.
The only thing they can do to keep constructed playable is keep reprinting what they can and ban what they can't from everywhere but Vintage.
Bloodstained Mire was cheaper than the cheapest Shocklands for a couple months. And THS/KTK was the second cheapest Standard to date until BFZ/AKH. It was the Battle Lands and being able to run both Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in every deck that ruined everything.
The only thing they can do to keep constructed playable is keep reprinting what they can and ban what they can't from everywhere but Vintage.
Actually, when I think about it if they did reprint zen fetches in a standard set, it would be painful in the short term, but because the value of the lands are so high singles sellers would keep opening boxes until the prices normalized. So, long term it would drop the prices of the zen fetches down to manageable levels, but I got no idea what it would do in the short term to the rest of the set along with standard in general. I don't think they've ever reprinted something as high dollar as the zen fetches in a standard set ever. Now I kind of want to see them do it just to see what really would happen.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Were they? I hated the aesthetic of the filigree card frame and the art that looks so out of place with the rest of magic. I mean, sure it fits in with Kaladesh but it doesn't fit with any other set.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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1. Wotc has no actual control - they do whatever hasbro tells them. Hasbro says jump, WOTC says how high. Hasbro says reprint rare cards in 10 dollar packs, WOTC says how many sets?
2. MTG is a business FIRST. Expect this to continue forever because the masters sets have been a HUGE Success from a financial POV. MTG is one of the FEW brands carrying Hasbro. They will continue with everything theyve done lately because its led to more sealed product being sold.
Pretty much this. Also, Wizards themselves prefer to build sets based on the draft and sealed experience over the player driven constructed form of play, despite actively supporting such player driven efforts for marketing reasons. The very big reason they do this is due to how playable the game is in that form vs the constructed one and the learning curve as well as financial curve involved. Constructed magic has a very big gap between the worst case scenario and the best case scenario, which makes it easy for someone to just walk into a game and just get steam rolled. Limited formats tend to have a closer gap between worst case and best case, which results in an overall better gaming experience.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Because of how big the company is, WOtC has certain obligations with the federal trade commission to uphold the net value of people's equal investment opportunities in cards which resemble property investments such as coins or precious metals. Old cards get worn out, so they need to be reprinted so that old formats don't die out entirely and become useless, but they can't be reprinted too much or collectors/players will lose too much money from their purchase, so it helps to have new sets which create a new(ish) kind of product to be invested in, and one that is beyond current counterfeiting methods. Despite that WOtC is acting legally, if enough people complain about the economic loss of investment due to WOtC's direct management of the company, they get penalized. The best option is then to reprint only just enough such that there is no negative net effect on the card market. One version of an old skool op card will be worth more, some others less, but enough to maintain the former net effect of those core cards on the market. Keep in mind however that this is generally only predictable for older staple cards. Everyone always wants dual lands, and as a consequence dual lands have had very steady and predictable price growth.
Secondly, counterfeiting is more common. WOtC know and individual vendors know this, so they are especially hesitant to print enough to lower the price for many people. It is dangerous to their market to reprint too many of a card due to the easy tendency of oversupply, but these fears are justified in looking at past fiascos such as sports cards. In the old days when sports cards were popular, the manufacturers printed however many people wanted. Because of this, vendors and private collectors bought out as many as they could to sell themselves, which in turn signaled the manufacturers to produce more. Eventually, this cycle repeated until formerly $20 cards became so oversupplied that they are now worth less than one penny. By WOtC intentionally limiting the supply and also consequently keeping the price high, even though it's a real bummer for a lot of people, it makes it much more difficult for individuals to control the market and cause that same kind of debacle.
When you consider these two things, remember that problem for standard in particular also that these expensive cards go out of rotation, which causes people to lose on their investment. The "price soak" effect mentioned was anticipated. WOtC already knows many serious standard/draft players will spend a lot on the format. This allows worn-out EDH/modern/legacy/vintage cards to get reprinted and enter circulation while simultaneously making the more creative and less long-term cards more readily available than if people weren't interested in the master cards, so serious standard players actually get a better investment for when their standard sets are out of rotation when they have their op EDH/modern/legacy/vintage cards leftover. It also gives these same standard players more of a gateway into the other higher power level formats that depend on more cards. It seems to be an experimental tactic overall, but they are trying to taking multiple issues at once that have been brought up by the user community. They only reason people aren't satisfied is because WOtC only cares about the overall net effect, so it doesn't matter if many individuals are disappointed as long as their card market remains stable. As with most large game formats, the actions largely revolve around the top 10% of serious/active players as those players are more responsible for supporting the game's economy, but occasionally the greater bulk of players can also have an impact.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar for example was able to push 25+ dollars even in the heat of box openings because he was insanely good, but started at 15 dollars, and now on rotation his price is 8-9 dollars, but if the price were regulated and he has to be sold legally at 15 dollars, that isn't exactly good while he is still in a shifting meta. I think that regulation would be good post rotation when the dust settles because having all the cards sell out would be better than having it linger and just increase in price constantly. That's largely been the problem with Modern in that the market creates an illusion of availability that really isn't there.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
WOtC can clearly control the volume of cards in the market with new sets and reprints to the extent that they can regulate counterfeits, and I'm sure you don't really think they are so careless as to ignore the singles market, like with all the thousands of card vendors they distribute to every year. They might not have formal obligations at this moment, but they are well aware that the FTC will easily get involved if the economic loss due to WOTC's mismanagement is high enough.
You say that it would be better to have all cards sell out, and yet if that happened, everyone who ever invested in the game in any way would stand to lose a significant amount of money, and furthermore people would refrain from reinvesting in it while knowing that everything they buy is worthless. Economically, it clearly isn't rational to be greedy as you can sell more products with a lower price, and they certainly don't have a monopoly on the entertainment industry. And yet, they still persist, so this issue is about something more complex than that. There's a reason why it's called a "collectible" card game, and at its core it's not much different than what most governments due with minted coins. The goal of WoTC is not to ensure that everyone who wants specific cards gets those specific cards, it's to provide an investment, like art, that can second as a form of entertainment and/or experience for extra utility, which admittedly may make it better than an actual painting for some people.
Legal crazy stuff aside, I'm not happy about them axing Masterpieces because we basically are going back to square one with JTMS level prices on a few select mythics. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar would have pushed 40+ easily in a set that didn't have expeditions. We're about to enter some serious pay to win insanity in this game.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As I already said, it is beyond doubt that WoTC has the capability to directly influence this market, even to the extent that it's as close to collusion as they can be without directly ordering people to set the price. They know how their own game works, they know what combos work well with each other, they test play everything before releasing it, they monitor what cards people use in tournaments. If enough people complain about losses though, it's WoTC who fights the losing battle. It doesn't matter if a company breaks the law or not, if their actions are knowingly any kind of impactful detriment to the country's economy, the issue is taken seriously and they stand to be penalized. BP didn't "break the law" by leaking oil into the gulf coast, and even though they were being grossly irresponsible, they calculated it was rational for them be as such for the profit of their business, and yet I am sure you are well aware they paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in settlements (which are still underestimates of the damage) to affected people. WoTC knows they have to be careful, and this context is more understandable when you think of magic as being centered around "collecting" and not around "playing the game."
I can see how someone would hate the idea of a super ultra omega mythic rarity card, but how is the new art not more cool looking? I'd definitely trade in that old pencil sketch arcbound and chalice of the void for the new ones. Although new sword of fire and ice is dumb af.
As for the thread topic - would it benefit Wizards in any way to flood the market with cards and crash the secondary market? Maybe during the initial flood, but that would be a short-term gain with long-reaching afterquakes.
Their entire business model is designed after some cards being more powerful than others or more rare than others. That model is part of what creates demand. It also creates the excitement of cracking packs for some people - it's a bit of a gambler's high when they crack a pack and find that one really awesome card they've been looking for.
Are there other models? Absolutely, many of which involve sealed product where every card is equally available - you buy the expansion, you own every card. Those models are so radically different, though, that the infrastructure built by Wizards over the last 24 years probably couldn't support it. It's a much simpler model, where each player has no real incentive to by more than one of each product. The MTG model rewards players for buying more volume.
So, again, they flood the market with reprints to drop prices, crashing the secondary market. Players buy it all up, making lots of money for Wizards, but it doesn't hold value. Players lose the high of cracking packs and don't open as much because they can no longer hope to open a $4 pack to get a $40 card. Sales dwindle. the business model has cut its own feet off.
I'm not saying I like everything about the model - I sure wish I could get some cards a lot cheaper as I have a very limited budget for this game. But I realize any attempt to dramatically change it could backfire. And I think Wizards is a lot less inclined to "control" the secondary market than to occasionally profit from it. Every once in a while reprinting a high value card is a lot different from flooding the market with all the things, as some people want to promote.
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The font on the invocations still sucks, though.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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If it's bound by lightning then the new one makes sense. The modular component of it is its energy, the lightning, which can quickly zoom to a different artifact-creature, explaining the instant-speed at which it can use its ability. Metallic entities of metal that feed on electricity also don't necessarily need to "eat," so the premise that it needs a maw just makes it less sophisticated. The old arcbound looks like a phantom rock chunk, but the fact that the new one appears more synthetic and devoid of character accurately captures its robotic aspects.
While this thread is clearly derailed a bit by the discussion of the desirability of the masterpiece series, I think you're original point is based on a fundamental misunderstanding.
You want the Expected Value of a box to be a positive, and that just is never going to happen in the long term. Not because of choices that Wizards (or Hasbro) makes, but because prices will shift and continue to shift until we are back to where we are. It does not matter how valuable the cards being printed are, between stores charging above MSRP and single prices dropping, the EV of the box will equalize. There are obviously inefficiencies that mean there will be brief periods where that EV is out of balance, but it all balances out eventually. (The reason this balance is a lower EV than an equal EV - the nonmonetary value of sealed packs for drafting, that is lost <or used> when opening the box for singles).
Beyond that, the special versions (Judge Foils, FTVs, Masterpieces) - If you think the goal of these things is to drive down prices, then yes, they need a higher availability. Right now they seem to have little to no impact on the prices of the card. That said, these seem to have more meaning as collectibles and specialty items then as options for price manipulation. And since your argument is that Wizards is controlling the secondary market, and these currently do not significantly alter the secondary market, I'm having trouble seeing why they need to change.
Referring to the part in bold.. if that thing ever happened to mtg, it could be the beginning of the end. I have a fear of that day.. so eventhough I want some card prices to be lowered a bit - for example, I still don't want WoTC to re-print Tarmogoyf and LoTV too many times that their price become only a few dollars.
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The same is true of fetch land KTK reprints. The original price tanked to reasonable levels, remained respectable and slowly climbed. Very few people lost money on polluted delta- if they bought a Delta in 2005 or 2010 they did not lose. They have remained highly sought after and trade-able through out. Both are examples of successful reprints of value cards.
Masterpieces were a resounding failure from the POV of a Modern or Legacy player. They have helped EDH players with deep pockets and the need to pimp decks out, but they have done nothing to drop prices of anything bar Standard, the numbers have not been large enough to drop the price of the originals in the case of the good cards that people want form older formats. Price may have been a barrier to Standard entry, and they helped reduce that, but for most Modern and especially Legacy players, Standard being Standard with its design principles is a much, much bigger one. Good riddance to masterpieces, sucking the value out of boosters just made me draft less and do less sealed.
Now you could argue that TS and fetches have ruined their Standards, but given that recent Standards have been dire and needing multiple fixings, you could easily argue that incompetence and a desire to appeal to newbies has ruined Standards just as much as trying to appeal to Modern players by including overpowered reprints. Now that they have banned so many cards, surely it is time to use standard as a reprint vehicle once again- they have shown that you can reprint a 60$ card without it ending up at pennies, and a few years later it will be still very valuable. If they reprint a Thoughtseize Mk II they can always ban it and at least the people who own it will still have a decent asset long term. They have shown a willingness to reprint medium value cards such as Aven Mindcensor, I am hoping they go a step further and reprint the odd Crucible or Chalice properly, rather than sticking them into Masterpieces and satisfying nobody other than the sod who opens it. I am not talking about every expensive card, or even one a set, but one a year is not unreasonable. The prospect of a reprint can prevent cards climbing too high. We have already seen reprints in Masters sets just for value- nobody ever played Daybreak Coronet in limited in its Masters set as there were so few enchantments in the set- it is time to put the odd one into Standard again.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Fetchland reprints alone didn't drive the cost of standard up. When BFZ came with the fetchable battle lands, that drove the prices of both fetches and standard up to ridiculous levels. As long as there are no dual lands with basic land types, you could reprint fetchlands into standard without worrying about driving the price of standard up. Here's an article with data that supports this: Saffron Olive's article
The Masterpiece series is an interesting thing. It didn't serve as a price mover on the cards it reprinted. What it did do, is serve as a price mover on all of the cards in the set with it. Basically, set values are relatively constant. Since the masterpiece series ate up a chunk of that set value (20-25%, give or take), that lowered the price of the rest of the set. Masterpiece Mana Vaults and Sol Rings meant little to the price of Mana Vault and Sol Ring, but resulted in cheaper Aetherworks Marvel and other Kaladesh cards (and cheaper standard decks too).
Reprinting expensive cards as Standard legal is great, when it doesn't screw up Standard. When it works, you have something like Khans Standard, which results in cheap standard, lower priced fetches for Modern and Eternal players, and happy everybody. When you break it, you have BFZ standard, which results in skyrocketing prices for both Standard and fetches, resulting in unhappy Standard players and minimal benefit to the Modern and Eternal players. And I can't see Wizards choosing to walk into bannings in order to do the reprint thing with a card that will break Standard and need to be banned to prevent the negative.
Printing Zendikar Fetchlands into standard would increase the mana base costs tremendously with or without the fetchable BFZ lands or shock lands. The main problem in that particular case is that the lands are known to be good and are in extremely high demand in modern. The lowest cost of the Kahns fetchlands was about 10-15 dollars and hovered around 20-30 when the lands were in standard. The Zendikar ones went down to maybe the 30-40 dollar range with modern masters 2017, and if they tried to put them into a standard set the cards would likely be even higher than that. The Lorwyn / Elwyn filter lands and the shock lands are much safer reprints, as the former are only really used casually for the most part and the latter are rather heavily printed already (and need to stay that way with more reprintings as they are starting to climb again).
I'm not saying you are incorrect on the assessment and I agree with S.Os article. Just when it comes to really high priced cards like Engineered Explosives, Scalding Tarn, etc, those are so high up there that the bottom is going to be much higher on those cards compared to others.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The only thing they can do to keep constructed playable is keep reprinting what they can and ban what they can't from everywhere but Vintage.
Actually, when I think about it if they did reprint zen fetches in a standard set, it would be painful in the short term, but because the value of the lands are so high singles sellers would keep opening boxes until the prices normalized. So, long term it would drop the prices of the zen fetches down to manageable levels, but I got no idea what it would do in the short term to the rest of the set along with standard in general. I don't think they've ever reprinted something as high dollar as the zen fetches in a standard set ever. Now I kind of want to see them do it just to see what really would happen.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!