Just for the sake of discussion, let's say that a certain two card combo had become too ubiquitous in the most popular eternal format, and WotC R&D had genuinely well-founded concerns that the combo was eating up too much of the meta to be healthy. There are at that point three basic plans to solve the problem: 1) print more new cards that make the combo less devastating; 2) errata the cards (which have both essentially been in print since Richard Kane Ferguson was in diapers (not that i judge)); 3) The old nuclear option, which has been the go-to move of late. There are serious problems which each approach. Approach #1 creates not just power creep, but power long-jump as an Olympic sport; approach #2 simply isn't done any more, and if it were, it would only be done with cards that have been recently printed, not 10 and 13 years ago; approach #3 is called The Nuclear Option for good reason, however i have to admit that it looks like the best option of the three.
So since it's a simple two-card combo that needs to be broken up, the next logical question would seem to be which card to Nuke. It's often easy to make this choice based upon which card is most easily substituted. For example, if Pestermite had been banned in Modern, it would quickly have been replaced by Deceiver Exarch, Zealous Conscripts, and probably others i'm not thinking of at the moment. Banning Splinter Twin seemed the more logical choice. Yes, there was still Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker out there, but it's not as simple a combo, even with Mirror Gallery thrown in for *****s and giggles.
So yes i have a point to this rambling Original Post. Sure, people had been complaining about the ubiquity of Sensei's Divining Top for years, and there had been incessant whinging about it being OP, and for Modern, sure, okay, but i really don't think it's OP in Legacy, which is after all a T1-T2, maybe T3 format. Furthermore, it was a popular spell and enriched the meta. And in its way, it's easier to functionally replace because Legacy still has legal cards like Ponder and Preordain, to name only a couple. Sure, there are plenty of other ways to counter spells without Counterbalance, but it seems to me that WotC could have damaged their target deck (Miracles) without so much widespread damage in the meta, by banning Counterbalance instead of Sensei's Divining Top.
As somebody who was doing well during the Miracles ascendency by virtue of having been playing 16-top for most of that time, which card got banned wasn't really all that important to me, though i will admit a bit of personal bias for Top simply because i love utility cards and i think it's one of the ultimates.
Anyway, for those of you who've made it this far, thanks for reading my rant. Please feel free to sound off on the issue yourselves, even if it's just to tell me why i'm an idiot. It's entirely possible that i missed the real point and if so i would genuinely appreciate enlightenment!
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They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
#1 isn't necessarily power creep. For example, affinity was ridiculously overpowered during it's time and required two rounds of banning.
However, had the set had null rod[ or meltdown, it wouldn't have been such a big problem. Neither null rod nor meltdown or overpowered cards.
The problem with #1 is how sets are designed. They're designed at least a year prior to release. That means the next set after the broken card has released won't have a hoser specifically designed for it. By the time a specifically designed hoser is printed, the broken interaction has aleady left standard (and yes, they care about standard more than they care about legacy).
SDT was banned not just because of counterbalance and miracles, but the same reason it was banned in modern -- it ate a lot of time.
In Legacy, Miracles—a deck that is focused on combining Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to control what opponents can or (mostly) cannot resolve—has been the best deck in the format for some time. We were hopeful that this would change over time, but it has not. That alone is not necessarily enough to move to ban a card from the deck, but Sensei's Divining Top comes with its own host of issues that center around the timely conclusion of matches in a tournament setting. The necessity of repeated Top activations to play the card slows down match play and leads to tournament delays. Coupled with the power of the Miracles deck, this is reason enough for us to take action on Top. Therefore, Sensei's Divining Top is banned in Legacy.
Proving wizards wrong at that point is going to be a hard sell -- anecdotal evidence from individual players won't cut it.
However, had the set had null rod[ or meltdown, it wouldn't have been such a big problem. Neither null rod nor meltdown or overpowered cards.
Not to discount your more important points, but i don't think either of those cards would've helped much. Both are Legacy-legal, btw. Null Rod was too easily countered (especially with the Top/Balance lock in place) or destroyed, and Top could easily dodge a Meltdown by tapping and going to library top to draw.
Regardless, i can totally see the time issue as being a bigger problem, and the ban makes a lot more sense to me now that i have that perspective, so thanks again.
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They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
However, had the set had null rod[ or meltdown, it wouldn't have been such a big problem. Neither null rod nor meltdown or overpowered cards.
Not to discount your more important points, but i don't think either of those cards would've helped much. Both are Legacy-legal, btw. Null Rod was too easily countered (especially with the Top/Balance lock in place) or destroyed, and Top could easily dodge a Meltdown by tapping and going to library top to draw.
.... wat?
Reread my post. Look at the context of which I spoke about null rod and meltdown.
I was talking about affinity. The context being a hoser doesn't necessarily mean power creep. Neither null rod nor meltdown would be considered powercreep, because both are older than affinity and not that powerful, either.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
So what hoser/hate cards do you think could have been effective against against CounterTop? Pithing Needle comes immediately to mind for me, but you'd need it on the board T1 or 2, where it would be a little exposed. I can think of combos that could get the job done, but they're a little convoluted - like make the Sensei's Divining Top jump to the top of the library to save its own skin, then go after Counterbalance with a cmc 2 removal like Naturalize, Disenchant, etc; then Surgical Extraction/Extirpate to finish the job.
In the end though i think i have to admit that as much i might not like it, the Top ban was probably for the best in Legacy in the long run, as opposed to any other alternatives. I assume that Mindlock Orb and Shadow of Doubt would have had no effect in SDT because it calls for its controller to look at the top three, not search the top 3.
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They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
I used to get good mileage out of Burning-Tree Shaman against Sensei's Divining Top, but that was back when Extended was slower than Modern or Legacy are now.
They could always print more stuff that can't be countered or can return from the graveyard to play (as in after it's been countered), but that would be unfair to blue apparently.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
So since it's a simple two-card combo that needs to be broken up, the next logical question would seem to be which card to Nuke. It's often easy to make this choice based upon which card is most easily substituted. For example, if Pestermite had been banned in Modern, it would quickly have been replaced by Deceiver Exarch, Zealous Conscripts, and probably others i'm not thinking of at the moment. Banning Splinter Twin seemed the more logical choice. Yes, there was still Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker out there, but it's not as simple a combo, even with Mirror Gallery thrown in for *****s and giggles.
So yes i have a point to this rambling Original Post. Sure, people had been complaining about the ubiquity of Sensei's Divining Top for years, and there had been incessant whinging about it being OP, and for Modern, sure, okay, but i really don't think it's OP in Legacy, which is after all a T1-T2, maybe T3 format. Furthermore, it was a popular spell and enriched the meta. And in its way, it's easier to functionally replace because Legacy still has legal cards like Ponder and Preordain, to name only a couple. Sure, there are plenty of other ways to counter spells without Counterbalance, but it seems to me that WotC could have damaged their target deck (Miracles) without so much widespread damage in the meta, by banning Counterbalance instead of Sensei's Divining Top.
As somebody who was doing well during the Miracles ascendency by virtue of having been playing 16-top for most of that time, which card got banned wasn't really all that important to me, though i will admit a bit of personal bias for Top simply because i love utility cards and i think it's one of the ultimates.
Anyway, for those of you who've made it this far, thanks for reading my rant. Please feel free to sound off on the issue yourselves, even if it's just to tell me why i'm an idiot. It's entirely possible that i missed the real point and if so i would genuinely appreciate enlightenment!
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
However, had the set had null rod[ or meltdown, it wouldn't have been such a big problem. Neither null rod nor meltdown or overpowered cards.
The problem with #1 is how sets are designed. They're designed at least a year prior to release. That means the next set after the broken card has released won't have a hoser specifically designed for it. By the time a specifically designed hoser is printed, the broken interaction has aleady left standard (and yes, they care about standard more than they care about legacy).
SDT was banned not just because of counterbalance and miracles, but the same reason it was banned in modern -- it ate a lot of time.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/april-24-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-04-24
Proving wizards wrong at that point is going to be a hard sell -- anecdotal evidence from individual players won't cut it.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Funny, too, that i missed a Legacy t4 because of an opponent playing for draw by durdling with a Top, and that thought never even occurred to me.
I also admit that as much as i love the Top's utility, the meta has seemed a little more fun, if slightly less diverse, without it.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
Not to discount your more important points, but i don't think either of those cards would've helped much. Both are Legacy-legal, btw. Null Rod was too easily countered (especially with the Top/Balance lock in place) or destroyed, and Top could easily dodge a Meltdown by tapping and going to library top to draw.
Regardless, i can totally see the time issue as being a bigger problem, and the ban makes a lot more sense to me now that i have that perspective, so thanks again.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
.... wat?
Reread my post. Look at the context of which I spoke about null rod and meltdown.
I was talking about affinity. The context being a hoser doesn't necessarily mean power creep. Neither null rod nor meltdown would be considered powercreep, because both are older than affinity and not that powerful, either.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
So what hoser/hate cards do you think could have been effective against against CounterTop? Pithing Needle comes immediately to mind for me, but you'd need it on the board T1 or 2, where it would be a little exposed. I can think of combos that could get the job done, but they're a little convoluted - like make the Sensei's Divining Top jump to the top of the library to save its own skin, then go after Counterbalance with a cmc 2 removal like Naturalize, Disenchant, etc; then Surgical Extraction/Extirpate to finish the job.
In the end though i think i have to admit that as much i might not like it, the Top ban was probably for the best in Legacy in the long run, as opposed to any other alternatives. I assume that Mindlock Orb and Shadow of Doubt would have had no effect in SDT because it calls for its controller to look at the top three, not search the top 3.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
They could always print more stuff that can't be countered or can return from the graveyard to play (as in after it's been countered), but that would be unfair to blue apparently.