It's pretty clear WotC wishes they could delete everything pre-Ravnica from existance.
That would be the biggest mistake WotC could ever do to their player base. A reset on that scale pretty much guarantees I'll quit the game for good and never look back again. I don't think I'll be the only one.
It's pretty clear WotC wishes they could delete everything pre-Ravnica from existance.
From what I can tell they absolutely love the early cards. People were begging wizards to reprint older cards and pay attention to the secondary market and, well, they did just that. It's just one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of moments because it also made them realize they can make a ton of money off of selling these cards at high rates. They dipped their toes in with Modern Masters 2013 and after that sold like gang busters they decided to make it the primary product line for reprints. I'm also pretty sure they decided to kill core sets partially because they figured they could move all the reprints to the masters sets. I'm now wondering what they really are going to do with the summer core set. Are we going to get a draft version of a deck builders toolkit? I totally could see them doing it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Given the data in the op have we considered player density and market saturation. There probably are a greater number of players who played cards that line up with the original data which would certainly make the more recent stuff more iconic to a greater number of players.
It's pretty clear WotC wishes they could delete everything pre-Ravnica from existance.
From what I can tell they absolutely love the early cards. People were begging wizards to reprint older cards and pay attention to the secondary market and, well, they did just that. It's just one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of moments because it also made them realize they can make a ton of money off of selling these cards at high rates. They dipped their toes in with Modern Masters 2013 and after that sold like gang busters they decided to make it the primary product line for reprints. I'm also pretty sure they decided to kill core sets partially because they figured they could move all the reprints to the masters sets. I'm now wondering what they really are going to do with the summer core set. Are we going to get a draft version of a deck builders toolkit? I totally could see them doing it.
That doesn't really tell me they love old cards, it tells me they love the stupid pricetags attached to some old cards.
If they loved old cards we would have seen more than three first time reprints from the Masques-Onslaught era.
It's pretty clear WotC wishes they could delete everything pre-Ravnica from existance.
From what I can tell they absolutely love the early cards. People were begging wizards to reprint older cards and pay attention to the secondary market and, well, they did just that. It's just one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of moments because it also made them realize they can make a ton of money off of selling these cards at high rates. They dipped their toes in with Modern Masters 2013 and after that sold like gang busters they decided to make it the primary product line for reprints. I'm also pretty sure they decided to kill core sets partially because they figured they could move all the reprints to the masters sets. I'm now wondering what they really are going to do with the summer core set. Are we going to get a draft version of a deck builders toolkit? I totally could see them doing it.
That doesn't really tell me they love old cards, it tells me they love the stupid pricetags attached to some old cards.
If they loved old cards we would have seen more than three first time reprints from the Masques-Onslaught era.
Well, not in the way we like them. If you tell a bunch of people there is low hanging fruit for cash grabs and those people are corporate, this is the result.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Here is, I think, the core of the issue. Iconic Masters being a masters set, people expect high value playable reprints. That said, when I think of Iconic MTG cards, outside of Power Nine, most of them can be had for between .50 and 5.00. Sure, you can't get JTMS, 'Goyf, ect. But you CAN get Tiny Jace, Lhurgoyf (What's more iconic then ACH! HANS, RUN!) , and such for that price. Honestly, I would think in a true Iconic set, we'd see piles of things like Urza's Whatever, the Mishra creature card, Karn, Silver Golem, Sword of X and Y, the Kaldra cycle, Baron Sengir, and the like.
But, that wouldn't sell at 10.00 a pack.
So, they have to make choices. Make a set feel Iconic, or make it feel like a masters set.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks:
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
Or don't base the set price on secondary market values and stop selling masters sets at insane prices. The only reason the prices got this way to begin with is lack of reprints and because of their own choices that probably hurt the game they are now profiting from it. Because why not? They couldn't make an iconic masters set because they needed the slots for big money.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A lot of people are citing Alpha commons/uncommons as iconic. What are some iconic cards from Masques through Onslaught block? What were some of the Standard defining cards of that era? Wasn't Astral Slide a huge deal? And Terminate?
Given the data in the op have we considered player density and market saturation. There probably are a greater number of players who played cards that line up with the original data which would certainly make the more recent stuff more iconic to a greater number of players.
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
...being awesome with a violin doesn't mean you're awesome at writing your own songs. And writing good songs doesn't mean you're good enough at playing an instrument or singing to get a contract with a label.
Reflecting Pool: You know, technically, I *CAN* make any color of mana.
Exotic Orchard: Prove it. Do it right now.
Reflecting Pool: Well, not right now. I need some condi....
Exotic Orchard: LIES. GO DIE IN A FIRE.
Reflecting Pool:
A lot of people are citing Alpha commons/uncommons as iconic. What are some iconic cards from Masques through Onslaught block? What were some of the Standard defining cards of that era? Wasn't Astral Slide a huge deal? And Terminate?
Given the data in the op have we considered player density and market saturation. There probably are a greater number of players who played cards that line up with the original data which would certainly make the more recent stuff more iconic to a greater number of players.
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
A lot of people in their 30s play the game and remember the old school days. I know several people my age who go play draft at FNM. All of us at least played during Mirage and up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Just so everyone who reads this thread knows, WOTC is a slave to Hasbro. Hasbro has not done that well lately, OUTSIDE of mtg. So the positive for us is the game is growing, and more sets will likely be printed going forward including masters sets. The downside is that more cards will get trashed due to reprintts and expensive masters products WILL be the norm. They have a higher gross margin and help hasbro/its shareholders.
Basically everything about masters sets will be a compromise because Hasbro has insisted WOTC do what it takes to move large amounts of product. Don't blame them directly... they have no choice.
Specifically, it means Dragon, Angel, Demon, Sphinx, and Hydra. Nothing more, nothing less.
Just further proof new sets are designed with checklists in mind.
As for this set I imagine they weren't thinking about what ''iconic'' means at all. Iconic was just a word they decided to use for marketing purposes, a word they thought would create hype (they were right). But as far as card inclusion goes, this is just another EMA set. With carefully crunched numbers, calculated by some suits how to best include enough valuable cards, and at which rarity, that people will be willing to pay triple the price for boosters, while not getting much out of it for the most part.
This set is trying to do too many different things. It wants to be thematic. It wants to provide a good draft environment. It wants to provide high value reprints. It wants to charge $10 per pack. Thos leads to feeling compromised on all fronts.
I was hoping, with this set and Masters 25 being released so close together, that there would be some distinction as to the 'purpose' of each set.
Have Iconic Masters be highly thematic and tribal. Have a fun draft environment. Have it be lower powered so that you can include some older iconic cards. Don't worry about including high-value cards, most of the value will come from quality commons and uncommons. BUT, sell the packs for $2-4 each so that I can play in more drafts, since that's what the set is for.
Then, when Masters 25 rolls around, go the other direction and have $10 packs filled with valuable reprints.
Iconic was the wrong name for the set, since it's a word that is subjective to every person who has ever played the game. With the data showing that the product neglects half of magic's history, it is a bit disheartening. At least Time Spiral is fairly well represented, giving callbacks to older cards.
Specifically, it means Dragon, Angel, Demon, Sphinx, and Hydra. Nothing more, nothing less.
In my opinion, nobody should blindly buy any set based purely on its name, without actually doing at least a little research into what that name means in context. When i first heard the name, "Iconic Masters," i also rushed to the assumption that it referred to cards which are considered iconic in the more dictionary-definition sense of the term. However, i didn't rush out and drop beaucoup ducats to pre-order a set based purely on that assumption. I don't think WotC was trying to be deceptive or cutesy by using the word Iconic in this case; i think they expect their target audience to be intelligent.
I think i did pretty well out of EMA personally, though i can understand why some people were pretty disappointed. My only complaint was that they monkeyed around with the print runs multiple times, and i think they did so unethically.
The most interesting thing about this set to me is that it's intended for drafting and features both Channel and Fireball.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
Just so everyone who reads this thread knows, WOTC is a slave to Hasbro. Hasbro has not done that well lately, OUTSIDE of mtg. So the positive for us is the game is growing, and more sets will likely be printed going forward including masters sets. The downside is that more cards will get trashed due to reprintts and expensive masters products WILL be the norm. They have a higher gross margin and help hasbro/its shareholders.
Basically everything about masters sets will be a compromise because Hasbro has insisted WOTC do what it takes to move large amounts of product. Don't blame them directly... they have no choice.
Well, that at least explains two masters sets in the same year. It also explains why they pushed a "summer of commander" and are continuing that into the set designs for standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A lot of people are citing Alpha commons/uncommons as iconic. What are some iconic cards from Masques through Onslaught block? What were some of the Standard defining cards of that era? Wasn't Astral Slide a huge deal? And Terminate?
Given the data in the op have we considered player density and market saturation. There probably are a greater number of players who played cards that line up with the original data which would certainly make the more recent stuff more iconic to a greater number of players.
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
A lot of people in their 30s play the game and remember the old school days. I know several people my age who go play draft at FNM. All of us at least played during Mirage and up.
Ive played since Saga and feel that a reprint of 7th edition in its entirety would have been more Iconic; however i still understand that most of the players i see at fnm's and pre-releases look at anything older than Alara as an Ancient set.
Just so everyone who reads this thread knows, WOTC is a slave to Hasbro. Hasbro has not done that well lately, OUTSIDE of mtg. So the positive for us is the game is growing, and more sets will likely be printed going forward including masters sets. The downside is that more cards will get trashed due to reprintts and expensive masters products WILL be the norm. They have a higher gross margin and help hasbro/its shareholders.
Basically everything about masters sets will be a compromise because Hasbro has insisted WOTC do what it takes to move large amounts of product. Don't blame them directly... they have no choice.
That article links to a Toys R Us article that mentions that Hasbro pulled in double digits. So uh....
This is the same company that gave us Weebles and killed Kenner. Doesn't bolster my hope for WotC or my love for Hasbro.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That would be the biggest mistake WotC could ever do to their player base. A reset on that scale pretty much guarantees I'll quit the game for good and never look back again. I don't think I'll be the only one.
From what I can tell they absolutely love the early cards. People were begging wizards to reprint older cards and pay attention to the secondary market and, well, they did just that. It's just one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of moments because it also made them realize they can make a ton of money off of selling these cards at high rates. They dipped their toes in with Modern Masters 2013 and after that sold like gang busters they decided to make it the primary product line for reprints. I'm also pretty sure they decided to kill core sets partially because they figured they could move all the reprints to the masters sets. I'm now wondering what they really are going to do with the summer core set. Are we going to get a draft version of a deck builders toolkit? I totally could see them doing it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
If they loved old cards we would have seen more than three first time reprints from the Masques-Onslaught era.
Well, not in the way we like them. If you tell a bunch of people there is low hanging fruit for cash grabs and those people are corporate, this is the result.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But, that wouldn't sell at 10.00 a pack.
So, they have to make choices. Make a set feel Iconic, or make it feel like a masters set.
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What happened?!!
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
Probably all moved over to Masters 25
This comment is spot on. The full name of IMA should be "Iconic to players from 2009 through 2015 Masters". Wizards didn't bother catering to players from the first half of Magic because they're likely not playing anymore.
With this logic, IMA should appeal to me. After leaving Magic in 1998, I came back in 2009 and have played since. However, I interact with cards from all sets from playing Legacy and Commander and grooming my collection. Bottom line is "iconic" means many things to many people. But as TetzaHexlog says, it likely means "2009-2015" for the vast majority of people.
FireFox31
Validating Netdecks and Land Smackdown
A lot of people in their 30s play the game and remember the old school days. I know several people my age who go play draft at FNM. All of us at least played during Mirage and up.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
https://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=HAS&ty=c&ta=0&p=m
Basically everything about masters sets will be a compromise because Hasbro has insisted WOTC do what it takes to move large amounts of product. Don't blame them directly... they have no choice.
Just further proof new sets are designed with checklists in mind.
As for this set I imagine they weren't thinking about what ''iconic'' means at all. Iconic was just a word they decided to use for marketing purposes, a word they thought would create hype (they were right). But as far as card inclusion goes, this is just another EMA set. With carefully crunched numbers, calculated by some suits how to best include enough valuable cards, and at which rarity, that people will be willing to pay triple the price for boosters, while not getting much out of it for the most part.
Mana drain is the only real big deal in the set, anything else is pretty mediocre and "hardly" iconic.
The set simply has a bad name and they will probably charge way too much for the boosters.
This set will most likely be a disaster and teach them a bunch of valuable lessons.
Would be really surprised if this set is a hit.
WUBRG#BlackLotusMatterWUBRG
👮👮👮 #BlueLivesMatter 👮👮👮
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I was hoping, with this set and Masters 25 being released so close together, that there would be some distinction as to the 'purpose' of each set.
Have Iconic Masters be highly thematic and tribal. Have a fun draft environment. Have it be lower powered so that you can include some older iconic cards. Don't worry about including high-value cards, most of the value will come from quality commons and uncommons. BUT, sell the packs for $2-4 each so that I can play in more drafts, since that's what the set is for.
Then, when Masters 25 rolls around, go the other direction and have $10 packs filled with valuable reprints.
In my opinion, nobody should blindly buy any set based purely on its name, without actually doing at least a little research into what that name means in context. When i first heard the name, "Iconic Masters," i also rushed to the assumption that it referred to cards which are considered iconic in the more dictionary-definition sense of the term. However, i didn't rush out and drop beaucoup ducats to pre-order a set based purely on that assumption. I don't think WotC was trying to be deceptive or cutesy by using the word Iconic in this case; i think they expect their target audience to be intelligent.
I think i did pretty well out of EMA personally, though i can understand why some people were pretty disappointed. My only complaint was that they monkeyed around with the print runs multiple times, and i think they did so unethically.
The most interesting thing about this set to me is that it's intended for drafting and features both Channel and Fireball.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
Well, that at least explains two masters sets in the same year. It also explains why they pushed a "summer of commander" and are continuing that into the set designs for standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
Ive played since Saga and feel that a reprint of 7th edition in its entirety would have been more Iconic; however i still understand that most of the players i see at fnm's and pre-releases look at anything older than Alara as an Ancient set.
https://archidekt.com/user/71716
That article links to a Toys R Us article that mentions that Hasbro pulled in double digits. So uh....
This is the same company that gave us Weebles and killed Kenner. Doesn't bolster my hope for WotC or my love for Hasbro.