I really hate rules lawyering but frequently in FNM or competitive REL we have incidents like:
1) "I play say Jeskai Ascendancy" (respond with okay) and then a second later, the guy goes "oh shoot, I tapped the wrong mana, let me take it back"
2) I cast inqusition of kozelick off my fetchland, I went to my lifepad and note "17 life" and I place my hand, then my opponent says "Nvm, I meant to grab a basic, I didn't realize I have the other colors"
I personally like to be nice about incidents like this and I give my opponent the benefit of the doubt (because I tapped my mana wrong before and my opponent let me take it back). But usually when people do things like this, are they trying to pry information from you based on your reaction/ try to gain an unfair advantage based on your hand/ decision.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Typically FNM is whatever. At anything more, I'd call a judge and stand your ground. If someone gets carried away at FNM I remind them and if they continue to do so will make them stick to their guns. Just verify you're moving forward and actions are solid after doing so and most everyone will respect it. Most of the time Inplay FNM for fun, but I do have a competitive streak and if I'm prepping for a big event I want to be practicing as much as possible.
At FNM I'm fine with it, usually. I try not to do it myself, even at FNM though.
At a GP? JUDGE!
Pretty much this.
I will admit that it bothers me a bit when it happens too often. I am very negative and pessimistic, but even I will admit that usually when an opponent does it, they are NOT trying to get info. It's what I usually think myself. But I can admit when I'm wrong.
*I will also admit that I did make a mistake against an opponent who took back nearly 5 things per match against me and we were paired often. I felt like I'm obligated to do at least 1 take back when his whole match revolves around that. I was kind of torn, but felt like that in the end.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Depends on the situation. Obviously being a stickler at a FNM type setting just makes one a douchebag.
I've seen pros on stream in big tournaments tap a mana like they are going to cast something then untap it, apparently changing their mind. So clearly there is some small amount of leeway even in that setting. But you certainly have the right to call a judge for any little thing that concerns you at a big GP or Open type event.
At Regular REL, I don't care. There is a caveat there that if they are being an ass or seem like they are trying to scumbag their way into extra info I won't let them. At Comp, no way will I let take backs. You misplayed and you will be punished for it. If you let take backs at competitive it diminishes the effort that you and others have put into becoming good at the game and being careful.
Depends on the situation. Obviously being a stickler at a FNM type setting just makes one a douchebag.
I've seen pros on stream in big tournaments tap a mana like they are going to cast something then untap it, apparently changing their mind. So clearly there is some small amount of leeway even in that setting. But you certainly have the right to call a judge for any little thing that concerns you at a big GP or Open type event.
One case was my opponent casted a spell and no blue mana untapped, I cryptic command it. Then he says, oh ops, i meant to leave a blue untapped, then casts a dispel. I eventually allow the takeback and allow him the dispel my cryptic. The reality was if he had only 1 blue left, I most likely wouldn't have ran my cryptic into a dispel.
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Depends on the situation. Obviously being a stickler at a FNM type setting just makes one a douchebag.
I've seen pros on stream in big tournaments tap a mana like they are going to cast something then untap it, apparently changing their mind. So clearly there is some small amount of leeway even in that setting. But you certainly have the right to call a judge for any little thing that concerns you at a big GP or Open type event.
One case was my opponent casted a spell and no blue mana untapped, I cryptic command it. Then he says, oh ops, i meant to leave a blue untapped, then casts a dispel. I eventually allow the takeback and allow him the dispel my cryptic. The reality was if he had only 1 blue left, I most likely wouldn't have ran my cryptic into a dispel.
That's actually pretty bad. It seems as if they are trying to get info from you. But you are the judge of that. If you feel that it was harmless, it's up to you if you want them to take it back. Otherwise, if he does do that sort of take back, you probably should take your Cryptic Command into consideration with Blue now up (which in turn, shows how he is trying to get info from you).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That's a pretty big ask for a take back. I assume you are talking about a LGS type game and not a proper tournament. I wouldn't ask for something like that even in a LGS setting.
I agree with FCG, if you were going to allow his blue mana take back, you should have also been permitted to take back your Cryptic. At the point the information reveal is kinda even because you know he has a Dispel and he knows you have a Cryptic.
Eh I've seen a lot of pros tap & untap as a bluff, I forgot the name but I think it was one of the Japanese pros was did this like 4 or 5 times in a turn at the last PT with mono red, he kept tapping and untapping 3 lands like he had an ahn crop crasher despite just holding 2 mountains.
The first thing to casting a spell is announcing the spell and playing it on the table, tapping and untapping lands doesn't mean anything, a bad person I see it as a telegraph, a pro I see it as a bluff.
Pretty sure the rules are pretty generous with take backs at FNM-level REL, it's competitive level REL that they stop letting you say "oops!"
That said, at the LGS I play most of the FNM-goers are pretty competitive so we generally hold one another to a higher level of play to discourage sloppiness but if we play a kid or someone new the game we certainly let them take back as much as they want while never asking for take backs of our own. I've gone as far as to tell my opponent they should tap lands differently or sequence things differently just to help them out, it typically results in me losing but whatever, it's FNM.
I once saw someone crack a fetch and cast Gitixian probe (yah this was a while back). The first guy purposely didn't say anything. The other guy was a bit new and just reveals his hand. The first guy saw he was a control deck and decides to grab a shockland and pay phreyxian with probe (going down to 15).
If the other hand was a burn deck, I wouldn't be surprised the guy says "Okay I meant to grab a basic island and pay mana for my probe". I was watching and called him out for it.
Depends on the situation. Obviously being a stickler at a FNM type setting just makes one a douchebag.
I've seen pros on stream in big tournaments tap a mana like they are going to cast something then untap it, apparently changing their mind. So clearly there is some small amount of leeway even in that setting. But you certainly have the right to call a judge for any little thing that concerns you at a big GP or Open type event.
One case was my opponent casted a spell and no blue mana untapped, I cryptic command it. Then he says, oh ops, i meant to leave a blue untapped, then casts a dispel. I eventually allow the takeback and allow him the dispel my cryptic. The reality was if he had only 1 blue left, I most likely wouldn't have ran my cryptic into a dispel.
That's actually pretty bad. It seems as if they are trying to get info from you. But you are the judge of that. If you feel that it was harmless, it's up to you if you want them to take it back. Otherwise, if he does do that sort of take back, you probably should take your Cryptic Command into consideration with Blue now up (which in turn, shows how he is trying to get info from you).
I didn't take back my cryptic because getting cryptic dispel is bad, but your opponent knowing you have cryptic was just as bad. I felt I might be rules lawyering too much if I refuse the takeback, but in retrospect, I think I should have said no. This was LGS though.
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I will usually give someone one freebie unless they're super new and need help learning the game. I try to hold myself to a higher standard just as a matter of course because I'm trying to maintain a level of play suitable for comp rel.
I will usually give someone one freebie unless they're super new and need help learning the game. I try to hold myself to a higher standard just as a matter of course because I'm trying to maintain a level of play suitable for comp rel.
I find if I keep this feebee in mind, I'm spending more time trying to keep track of opponent cheating than thinking about the game
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I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
If something else has happened, including another player revealing a spell they intend to cast based on information like what mana is untapped, it's too late to take back a sub-optimal lesson, like in the case of the opponent countering the spell. Just inform them that if it causes them to lose, that will help them remember all the better in the future.
I'd allow takebacks in casual (if it annoys me enough, I'll just won't play you in the future), and in tournaments unless game state has changed -- Even in FNM level, I won't allow a takeback if gamestate has changed, and even at a GP I'll allow it if it has not.
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Causal = yes you are learning your deck. making mistakes to learn from is part of the process or we are just having fun who cares.
Pre prelease= yes new cards new rules we all make mistakes and here to have fun
First 2 rounds of a FNM: you MIGHT be a newbie so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt
after first 2 rounds of an FNM: you are not a new player anymore welcome to jungle JUDGE!
Any other format: call em on everything.
I'd say it's case by case. If it has no real effect on things, and they're just trying to make the correct plays in the correct order, then that's fine. But if I respond to something they do, and they want to change things so they can respond back, that's a learning experience for them.
I don't do takebacks, even at FNM. Some people thought I was just being a dick but they learned that the sole reason I play FNM is for PTQ/Open/GP prep, so I play FNM like I'm at a big event. Only time I really do takebacks is kitchen table with my brother and my wife, especially right now since she's learning to play a new EDH deck.
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Standard: GR Pummeler
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)
Low level events and casual I will always give one free one, if the player is new they get 2 strikes and the rest is on them. Owning your mistakes will make you a better player so it's in everyones self interest (assuming improvement is desireable). I totally get playing it straight at FNM though, I don't consider it dickish.
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1) "I play say Jeskai Ascendancy" (respond with okay) and then a second later, the guy goes "oh shoot, I tapped the wrong mana, let me take it back"
2) I cast inqusition of kozelick off my fetchland, I went to my lifepad and note "17 life" and I place my hand, then my opponent says "Nvm, I meant to grab a basic, I didn't realize I have the other colors"
I personally like to be nice about incidents like this and I give my opponent the benefit of the doubt (because I tapped my mana wrong before and my opponent let me take it back). But usually when people do things like this, are they trying to pry information from you based on your reaction/ try to gain an unfair advantage based on your hand/ decision.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
At a GP? JUDGE!
Pretty much this.
I will admit that it bothers me a bit when it happens too often. I am very negative and pessimistic, but even I will admit that usually when an opponent does it, they are NOT trying to get info. It's what I usually think myself. But I can admit when I'm wrong.
*I will also admit that I did make a mistake against an opponent who took back nearly 5 things per match against me and we were paired often. I felt like I'm obligated to do at least 1 take back when his whole match revolves around that. I was kind of torn, but felt like that in the end.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I've seen pros on stream in big tournaments tap a mana like they are going to cast something then untap it, apparently changing their mind. So clearly there is some small amount of leeway even in that setting. But you certainly have the right to call a judge for any little thing that concerns you at a big GP or Open type event.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
One case was my opponent casted a spell and no blue mana untapped, I cryptic command it. Then he says, oh ops, i meant to leave a blue untapped, then casts a dispel. I eventually allow the takeback and allow him the dispel my cryptic. The reality was if he had only 1 blue left, I most likely wouldn't have ran my cryptic into a dispel.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
That's actually pretty bad. It seems as if they are trying to get info from you. But you are the judge of that. If you feel that it was harmless, it's up to you if you want them to take it back. Otherwise, if he does do that sort of take back, you probably should take your Cryptic Command into consideration with Blue now up (which in turn, shows how he is trying to get info from you).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I agree with FCG, if you were going to allow his blue mana take back, you should have also been permitted to take back your Cryptic. At the point the information reveal is kinda even because you know he has a Dispel and he knows you have a Cryptic.
The first thing to casting a spell is announcing the spell and playing it on the table, tapping and untapping lands doesn't mean anything, a bad person I see it as a telegraph, a pro I see it as a bluff.
Pretty sure the rules are pretty generous with take backs at FNM-level REL, it's competitive level REL that they stop letting you say "oops!"
That said, at the LGS I play most of the FNM-goers are pretty competitive so we generally hold one another to a higher level of play to discourage sloppiness but if we play a kid or someone new the game we certainly let them take back as much as they want while never asking for take backs of our own. I've gone as far as to tell my opponent they should tap lands differently or sequence things differently just to help them out, it typically results in me losing but whatever, it's FNM.
If the other hand was a burn deck, I wouldn't be surprised the guy says "Okay I meant to grab a basic island and pay mana for my probe". I was watching and called him out for it.
I didn't take back my cryptic because getting cryptic dispel is bad, but your opponent knowing you have cryptic was just as bad. I felt I might be rules lawyering too much if I refuse the takeback, but in retrospect, I think I should have said no. This was LGS though.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I find if I keep this feebee in mind, I'm spending more time trying to keep track of opponent cheating than thinking about the game
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
I hold a similar policy when it comes to searching.
But if you rules lawyer me, I will lawyer you right back. Harder. Because I am the judge, and you're some wanna-be grinder.
If I'm playing causally - sure take backs are ok.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Pre prelease= yes new cards new rules we all make mistakes and here to have fun
First 2 rounds of a FNM: you MIGHT be a newbie so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt
after first 2 rounds of an FNM: you are not a new player anymore welcome to jungle JUDGE!
Any other format: call em on everything.
Modern: Mono-Red Control, Lantern Control, Eldrazi Taxes, Skred Infect
Pauper: Affinity
EDH: Gaddock Teeg Kithkin Tribal, Meren
Legacy: 8 Rack, Omnitell (Both in progress)