Actually I wouldn't break the reserved list. I like other investors with deep pockets and the firms of investors that purchase collectables would enact a class action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro to prevent this action, under promissory estoppel. Even if we happened to lose, which is not entirely likely, the cost to wizards and Hasbro would be devastating. There are people who would raise the price of necessary drugs by 5000% do you think those people would care about destroying a game millions enjoy just to make a few bucks?
Actually I wouldn't break the reserved list. I like other investors with deep pockets and the firms of investors that purchase collectables would enact a class action lawsuit against Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro to prevent this action, under promissory estoppel. Even if we happened to lose, which is not entirely likely, the cost to wizards and Hasbro would be devastating. There are people who would raise the price of necessary drugs by 5000% do you think those people would care about destroying a game millions enjoy just to make a few bucks?
If you think it's going to be that lopsided due to promissory estoppel you are completely out of your mind. However, that is a completely different subject, and probably is going to go over peoples heads anyway.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What if, instead of eliminating the Reserved list, they just eliminate the functional reprint clause? The old cards would still be valid, powerful and worthwhile, but then everyone else would have the ability to buy the functional reprints for a fair price.
If you're going to print brand new cards at that power level why restrain yourself to that power level. Make strictly better versions of every card on the reserved list, you have accomplished the goal of getting similar cards out there without having to touch the list. You could even make the strictly better part mostly irrelevant if you want to keep them closer to similar.
Because you don't want to make silly strong cards?
What if, instead of eliminating the Reserved list, they just eliminate the functional reprint clause? The old cards would still be valid, powerful and worthwhile, but then everyone else would have the ability to buy the functional reprints for a fair price.
If you're going to print brand new cards at that power level why restrain yourself to that power level. Make strictly better versions of every card on the reserved list, you have accomplished the goal of getting similar cards out there without having to touch the list. You could even make the strictly better part mostly irrelevant if you want to keep them closer to similar.
Because you don't want to make silly strong cards?
I specifically said you could keep the power level the same. Imagine this card
Totally not Taiga
Land - Mountain Forest
When ~ enters the battlefield target opponent reveals his or her hand.
This card is printable without touching the reserved list. It would never be printed because its far too strong. But if you are going to ignore the 'too strong to print' by printing functionally identical cards then this card is a far better candidate than 'Taiga with a Different Name'
Well, the original idea of the list was to include the cards they had no desire to print. The issue is they also put a bunch of cards on the list arbitrarily as well based on popularity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What if, instead of eliminating the Reserved list, they just eliminate the functional reprint clause? The old cards would still be valid, powerful and worthwhile, but then everyone else would have the ability to buy the functional reprints for a fair price.
If you're going to print brand new cards at that power level why restrain yourself to that power level. Make strictly better versions of every card on the reserved list, you have accomplished the goal of getting similar cards out there without having to touch the list. You could even make the strictly better part mostly irrelevant if you want to keep them closer to similar.
Because you don't want to make silly strong cards?
I specifically said you could keep the power level the same. Imagine this card
Totally not Taiga
Land - Mountain Forest
When ~ enters the battlefield target opponent reveals his or her hand.
This card is printable without touching the reserved list. It would never be printed because its far too strong. But if you are going to ignore the 'too strong to print' by printing functionally identical cards then this card is a far better candidate than 'Taiga with a Different Name'
I think it comes down to selfcontrol then. I don't think the Legacy crowd would be upset if wizards said, "As a specal support to Legacy we are printing a new mana base and some other "add on" cards. We are not going to be printing OTHER cards of this power but this new collection set product contains
4x of each "New duel" They will be printed in the same volume as as a Fat packs.
New Legacy Reserved list Staple (land)
Land type, Land Type
When New Duel comes in to play you may to choose to let it enter play tapped.
New Legacy Reserve list staple (non creature, Non Land)
(spell type)
When Spell is cast You may untap target Minator
New Legacy Reserve list staple (creature)
Is the creature with when enters play you may destroy target Minator
These are "strictly better" but not in any practical way that will impact the game 99.99999999999% of the time. Everone is happy yes?
In my personal opinion, the RL should remain sacrosanct. What we really need is a new format.
However, IF WotC decides to violate their contract with us, they should do it with chutzpah, not limited release stuff. They should print it in Standard and be ready for the fallout. JMO
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
They just couldn't put 7th edition into Modern because of the card borders? Seriously? Count me out.
However, IF WotC decides to violate their contract with us, they should do it with chutzpah, not limited release stuff. They should print it in Standard and be ready for the fallout. JMO
That's just silly. You would ruin Modern and Standard just so you can make Legacy and Vintage more accessible?
What I want to ask, however, isn’t whether the reserved list should be abolished or not. Rather, my question is how wizards would go about breaking the reserved list. While this may sound easy as pie (reprint reserved cards, duh!), it goes a bit deeper than you may think.
Even if Wizards gets the announcement correct, however, that just leads to the bigger question: How on earth do you actually reprint these cards? Which cards? How quickly? In what sort of product?
Think about that for a moment: If you print low-powered cards, you minimize hype. If you print high-powered cards, you limit the types of products that you can put the cards in without impacting standard/frontier/modern. If you put them in a limited-run product like eternal masters, vendors and investors may try to snap them up to keep prices high (if you reprint black lotus, for example, it would be hard to get them to the public). If you put them in as masterpieces to discourage this tactic, the difficulty in acquiring these cards may still reduce hype (even if those reprints push down the price of high tier cards by hundreds of dollars, that sort of stuff may not click with newer players). If you decide to force them into the hands of average players by printing them to hell and back… Well, that’s kind of what happened with Chronicles.
So… yeah. If you had the power to destroy the reserved list, what would be the smartest way to start printing cards from that list?
Couple of snips there, but this thread isn't for "should the RL be broken." That's another thread, an official one with hundreds of pages of circular arguments. This one assumes that the RL is going to be broken, what is the best way to do it? Do you prioritize getting cards to players for older formats? Do you string the reprints out over years to get the most reprint equity from them? Do you go the Masterpiece route? Do you give plenty of warning for the secondary market, or let the resellers take the hit? Is there a way to mitigate the loss of confidence, maybe by saying that your first responsibility, before any promises, is to maintain the health and future playability of the game, and that the RL makes some formats unsustainable?
Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Ok, what the heck, i'll actually attempt to defend my position on it for form's sake, then. I might learn something in the process too, which is almost always a good thing.
Let's say WotC does reprint RL cards in new Standard expansions. First off, the mythic type gives them wiggle room - they've never been afraid to change a card's scarcity rating in different printings before. Secondly, i think they really could go just a few highly sought after cards per release and simply ban them in Standard and Modern, if they wanted to. As mythics, they'd still give Standard and Modern players a decent trade-in value, and players looking to break into older formats would have improved access.
I'm no lawyer, and have no idea exactly what damage the torts would cause, but it seems to me that that damage would be collateral, potentially they could avoid the issue ahead of time with a product recall notice? The print runs in those days were miniscule compared to this era, i can't imagine that even if they were forced to compensate collectors for every penny lost, that it would outweigh the long-term benefits delivered in expanded markets. New artwork, new borders, go all out on those details and the value lost to collectors can be curbed if not exactly minimized.
Ok, what the heck, i'll actually attempt to defend my position on it for form's sake, then. I might learn something in the process too, which is almost always a good thing.
Let's say WotC does reprint RL cards in new Standard expansions. First off, the mythic type gives them wiggle room - they've never been afraid to change a card's scarcity rating in different printings before. Secondly, i think they really could go just a few highly sought after cards per release and simply ban them in Standard and Modern, if they wanted to. As mythics, they'd still give Standard and Modern players a decent trade-in value, and players looking to break into older formats would have improved access.
I'm no lawyer, and have no idea exactly what damage the torts would cause, but it seems to me that that damage would be collateral, potentially they could avoid the issue ahead of time with a product recall notice? The print runs in those days were miniscule compared to this era, i can't imagine that even if they were forced to compensate collectors for every penny lost, that it would outweigh the long-term benefits delivered in expanded markets. New artwork, new borders, go all out on those details and the value lost to collectors can be curbed if not exactly minimized.
I'm not sure why people jumped on you saying that the idea of reprinting RL cards would break standard and modern wide open, actually, because that is presuming people are talking about cards like P9 or cards that have been deemed oppressive such as Ensnaring Bridge. I'd love to see Dwarven Blastminer, Mana Cache, Debt of Loyalty, Volrath's Stronghold, Vesuvan Doppelganger, Kobold Overlord, and the like in standard. For every one bad card someone names I can probably list 10+ cards that are just fine for standard environments today, and most of the bad cards are ones that wizards would likely never reprint in a standard legal set again anyway.
Of course, that has lead to them making Modern Masters and keeping prices inflated on way too many cards thanks to high box prices and the freaking mythic rarity in general, but that is another problem altogether and it's likely more a problem with the genre itself as it ages than an issue of MTG itself. Case in point Warhammer 40k, a game with a similar age to MTG, has had price inflation due to availability and model popularity as well. The aggrivating part of the hobby is the divide between more casual / deck building players and spiky net-deckathon players. Namely, how to make sure that the depth of a players wallet does not limit their ability to play with others.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm not sure why people jumped on you saying that the idea of reprinting RL cards would break standard and modern wide open, actually, because that is presuming people are talking about cards like P9 or cards that have been deemed oppressive such as Ensnaring Bridge. I'd love to see Dwarven Blastminer, Mana Cache, Debt of Loyalty, Volrath's Stronghold, Vesuvan Doppelganger, Kobold Overlord, and the like in standard. For every one bad card someone names I can probably list 10+ cards that are just fine for standard environments today, and most of the bad cards are ones that wizards would likely never reprint in a standard legal set again anyway.
Of course, that has lead to them making Modern Masters and keeping prices inflated on way too many cards thanks to high box prices and the freaking mythic rarity in general, but that is another problem altogether and it's likely more a problem with the genre itself as it ages than an issue of MTG itself. Case in point Warhammer 40k, a game with a similar age to MTG, has had price inflation due to availability and model popularity as well. The aggrivating part of the hobby is the divide between more casual / deck building players and spiky net-deckathon players. Namely, how to make sure that the depth of a players wallet does not limit their ability to play with others.
I can understand the rush to assume p9 and the ABUR duals, those are the cards that most people really really want expanded access to.
Dwarven Blastminer is RL? An uncommon from 7th ed? I thought they stopped adding cards to the RL years before that. Regardless, you make a great point, and i'll add to it by noting that 15 years ago, not long after i first started playing, a couple or three dozen cards were taken off the RL. I had hoped to see a reprint of Earthbind myself, but it hasn't happened yet. But never mind Earthbind for the moment (*takes a moment*). My point was that i don't remember any major uproar or blowback over those removals, so i think your plan sounds solider than mine on those grounds, but i would refer you to the fact that for the one poster who jumped at my suggestion, there are a million more who would want the same thing.
I'm not sure it's possible to achieve parity in these types of formats either, it seems impossible, but efforts to do so will generally benefit game producers in the long run.
New artwork, new borders, go all out on those details and the value lost to collectors can be curbed if not exactly minimized.
I got it! They make something that's almost a functional reprint of the duals, but with even *****tier art than the original duals.
Molten Island
Land -- Island Mountain
As Molten Island enters the battlefield, each opponent may scry 1.
I have no idea how you got there from my post, lol! But that's a fine idea too. Why not target opponent? Give Ivory Mask, and more importantly, Leyline of Sanctity another drawback.
I don't generally like it when people diss the alpha artists, but i'll pass on the opportunity to wax wide about it. This time.
Actually, I don't think the dwarf is on the RL, but it's a good card to throw in there anyway.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To be frank, wotc needs to adopt a strategy for printing cards that actually works with the audience they fostered when the game popularity exploded. The entire problem with card printings, prices, etc comes from the fact many people who have returned to the game find they dont have the time to put into it like they used to, so they have to take short cuts such as find deck lists online. It's a no brainer that these people will gravitate toward what sources qualify as legitimate, such as pro tour deck lists, and this puts a huge strain on a select few cards.
If wizards breaks the reserved list, these same people will repeat this with any deck list that pops up in the now revived legacy. That's why I constantly feel like they need to drop prices on masters sets to get more copies out there and get more high value cards into pre-constructed products. They are doing the complete opposite of this over the last few years.
To break the reserved list, they need to develop a means to sell the high demand singles. I know there are people scared of the whole carrion ants scenario, but times have changed since then and the audience is much bigger and just doesn't have the same mind set.
Basically, we are in a world where the price of a card is not the trade value of the card in the traditional sense of usability in deck building, as engineered explosives for example is still a narrow side board card in comparison to a fetchland.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Please note. If wizards decided to reprint cards from the reserve list (Dual lands) the reprint value would be third to a half value of beta dual lands because too many players want black border [ENGLISH] dual lands without paying alpha/beta price.
I said it many times that playing in a magic tournament is like gambling therefore you need key cards (I don't want to get into this argument because too many players just don't get the reason why there's a Judge sitting at the table during a tournament, why playing with counterfeit cards is illegal and the concept of playing to win a prize.).
If your playing with friends - proxy the cards.
I know the reserve list sucks but there is no way wizards is going to abolish the reserve list without devaluing the price of the old cards and/or creating a new price spike for new cards.
That's exactly why i advocate "go big or go home (don't bother)." If they slam out enough copies into the market, (and i'm not advocating a total flood right off the bat, they can re-print as needed when the markets continue to expand), they can expand markets that are already open into more formats, which will drive sealed-product sales into new realms. If they use limited-release strategies, i feel like they'll shoot themselves in the foot with collectors. People can preach about not investing in cards all they want but the FACT for Wizards is that the collectors market is an important slice of their bottom line, and flat-out betraying that trust won't do them a lot of good unless they can make it up in one of two different ways: compensate the collectors (which can be curbed by keeping the older versions distinct) and/or open those markets so wide that the losses in the collector market are vastly outweighed by people buying mass-marketed versions.
As for printing in Standard-legal sets, i have yet to see a counter-argument against the idea i'll expand on a little more here. Instead of 265 card opening-block set, print it at 270, with 5 extra mythics that are RL re-prints. Say they start with friendly-color ABUR duals, then the companion set actually goes deeper with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Drop of Honey, Candelabra of Tawnos, Library of Alexandria, and Moat. Next block opens with the enemy-colored ABUR duals, and the second set moves into more valuable RL cards that aren't p9. They never really have to reprint the p9, because the real interest seems more in Legacy than Vintage anyway, but what if they do? Third block reprints the Moxen in the first set and second set goes for Time Walk, Time Twister, and three less valuable cards. Fourth block opens with Black Lotus and four Urza cards, moves on to Ancestral Recall with four nice Legends cards. There are plenty of ways to tweak the actual cards, timing, and releases, this is just an example. Sure it would take a couple years, but we're a patient market in general. We've waited this long, a couple more years would only whet our appetites that much more.
By banning the cards in Standard and Modern, they leave the formats intact. As noted above, Standard and Modern players who pull the cards would get their pack cost back by trading them in, they'd be sought-after mythics. But they wouldn't be too scarce to be prohibitive for newer players looking to break into those formats. Then they can re-print with limited release stuff (and/or Masters releases) as needed, and those would be major cash cows.
The older cards wouldn't completely devalue, even at first, because they'd still be the originals after all, and furthermore new art and all that jazz would enhance the status value of the originals. In time the originals might actually increase in value due to increased demand from players in those formats globally.
Am i being unintentionally dense? Is there something i'm missing in this potential scenario? If/when the collectors get litigious, settle out of court. HASBRO has deep enough pockets to back the play, and if WotC can show them how this move would grow the game through multiple formats across the entire world, i think HASBRO would see the long-term benefits as vastly outweighing the immediate out-of-pocket cost.
That's exactly why i advocate "go big or go home (don't bother)." If they slam out enough copies into the market, (and i'm not advocating a total flood right off the bat, they can re-print as needed when the markets continue to expand), they can expand markets that are already open into more formats, which will drive sealed-product sales into new realms. If they use limited-release strategies, i feel like they'll shoot themselves in the foot with collectors. People can preach about not investing in cards all they want but the FACT for Wizards is that the collectors market is an important slice of their bottom line, and flat-out betraying that trust won't do them a lot of good unless they can make it up in one of two different ways: compensate the collectors (which can be curbed by keeping the older versions distinct) and/or open those markets so wide that the losses in the collector market are vastly outweighed by people buying mass-marketed versions.
As for printing in Standard-legal sets, i have yet to see a counter-argument against the idea i'll expand on a little more here. Instead of 265 card opening-block set, print it at 270, with 5 extra mythics that are RL re-prints. Say they start with friendly-color ABUR duals, then the companion set actually goes deeper with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Drop of Honey, Candelabra of Tawnos, Library of Alexandria, and Moat. Next block opens with the enemy-colored ABUR duals, and the second set moves into more valuable RL cards that aren't p9. They never really have to reprint the p9, because the real interest seems more in Legacy than Vintage anyway, but what if they do? Third block reprints the Moxen in the first set and second set goes for Time Walk, Time Twister, and three less valuable cards. Fourth block opens with Black Lotus and four Urza cards, moves on to Ancestral Recall with four nice Legends cards. There are plenty of ways to tweak the actual cards, timing, and releases, this is just an example. Sure it would take a couple years, but we're a patient market in general. We've waited this long, a couple more years would only whet our appetites that much more.
By banning the cards in Standard and Modern, they leave the formats intact. As noted above, Standard and Modern players who pull the cards would get their pack cost back by trading them in, they'd be sought-after mythics. But they wouldn't be too scarce to be prohibitive for newer players looking to break into those formats. Then they can re-print with limited release stuff (and/or Masters releases) as needed, and those would be major cash cows.
The older cards wouldn't completely devalue, even at first, because they'd still be the originals after all, and furthermore new art and all that jazz would enhance the status value of the originals. In time the originals might actually increase in value due to increased demand from players in those formats globally.
Am i being unintentionally dense? Is there something i'm missing in this potential scenario? If/when the collectors get litigious, settle out of court. HASBRO has deep enough pockets to back the play, and if WotC can show them how this move would grow the game through multiple formats across the entire world, i think HASBRO would see the long-term benefits as vastly outweighing the immediate out-of-pocket cost.
Here is where you are wrong. we know the print runs for ABU. Beta for example has 2.6 Million sets. that means 2.6 million (theoretical) sets of black lotus, mox's, Each duel ect.
a beta Black lotus is valued at about $14,000 US each (according to SCG one of the major retails in the MTG marketplace) This means they could be out a theoretical $36,400,000,000 Thats 36 BILLION dollars, even if 90% of the black lotus's are destrotyed that are printed thats still 3.64 BILLION dollars. and thats just for black lotus. not counting duels, mox's, and every other card thats valued at $100+. To put this in to perspective, Hasbro's entire company stock is only valued at 12 Billion. It also only just last year hit a 5 billion in net revenue. You do the math they don't have "deep enough pockets" for this type of litigation. the potental cost is too high even with the assumpion that 90% of everything they have printed is no longer in circulation.
Here is where you are wrong. we know the print runs for ABU. Beta for example has 2.6 Million sets. that means 2.6 (theoretical) sets of black lotus, mox's, Each duel ect.
a beta Black lotus is valued at about $14,000 US each (according to SCG one of the major retails in the MTG marketplace) This means they could be out a theoretical $36,400,000,000 Thats 36 BILLION dollars, even if 90% of the black lotus's are destrotyed that are printed thats still 3.64 BILLION dollars. and thats just for black lotus. not counting duels, mox's, and every other card thats valued at $100+. To put this in to perspective, Hasbro's entire company stock is only valued at 12 Billion. It also only just last year hit a 5 billion in net revenue. You do the math they don't have "deep enough pockets" for this type of litigation. the potental cost is too high even with the assumpion that 90% of everything they have printed is no longer in circulation.
If a promissory estoppel case were brought against Hasbro for breaking the RL and they lost (which is not a given), they would have to pay reliance damages, which would be based on the value of the card when it was placed on the RL (1996), not its current price. (For reference, Beta Black Lotus was hovering around $300 in spring of 2003.)
If you think it's going to be that lopsided due to promissory estoppel you are completely out of your mind. However, that is a completely different subject, and probably is going to go over peoples heads anyway.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Because you don't want to make silly strong cards?
This card is printable without touching the reserved list. It would never be printed because its far too strong. But if you are going to ignore the 'too strong to print' by printing functionally identical cards then this card is a far better candidate than 'Taiga with a Different Name'
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think it comes down to selfcontrol then. I don't think the Legacy crowd would be upset if wizards said, "As a specal support to Legacy we are printing a new mana base and some other "add on" cards. We are not going to be printing OTHER cards of this power but this new collection set product contains
4x of each "New duel" They will be printed in the same volume as as a Fat packs.
New Legacy Reserved list Staple (land)
Land type, Land Type
When New Duel comes in to play you may to choose to let it enter play tapped.
New Legacy Reserve list staple (non creature, Non Land)
(spell type)
When Spell is cast You may untap target Minator
New Legacy Reserve list staple (creature)
Is the creature with when enters play you may destroy target Minator
These are "strictly better" but not in any practical way that will impact the game 99.99999999999% of the time. Everone is happy yes?
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
However, IF WotC decides to violate their contract with us, they should do it with chutzpah, not limited release stuff. They should print it in Standard and be ready for the fallout. JMO
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
That's just silly. You would ruin Modern and Standard just so you can make Legacy and Vintage more accessible?
But please keep in mind that my actual opinion is that the RL shouldn't be violated.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
My actual opinion is that the RL should remain in place. But if they're going to break their word, they should go big or go home.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
Couple of snips there, but this thread isn't for "should the RL be broken." That's another thread, an official one with hundreds of pages of circular arguments. This one assumes that the RL is going to be broken, what is the best way to do it? Do you prioritize getting cards to players for older formats? Do you string the reprints out over years to get the most reprint equity from them? Do you go the Masterpiece route? Do you give plenty of warning for the secondary market, or let the resellers take the hit? Is there a way to mitigate the loss of confidence, maybe by saying that your first responsibility, before any promises, is to maintain the health and future playability of the game, and that the RL makes some formats unsustainable?
If you want to argue about whether the RL should be abolished, try this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334928-reserved-list-discussion Just know that it's 122 pages and has been dormant nearly 3 months now.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
Let's say WotC does reprint RL cards in new Standard expansions. First off, the mythic type gives them wiggle room - they've never been afraid to change a card's scarcity rating in different printings before. Secondly, i think they really could go just a few highly sought after cards per release and simply ban them in Standard and Modern, if they wanted to. As mythics, they'd still give Standard and Modern players a decent trade-in value, and players looking to break into older formats would have improved access.
I'm no lawyer, and have no idea exactly what damage the torts would cause, but it seems to me that that damage would be collateral, potentially they could avoid the issue ahead of time with a product recall notice? The print runs in those days were miniscule compared to this era, i can't imagine that even if they were forced to compensate collectors for every penny lost, that it would outweigh the long-term benefits delivered in expanded markets. New artwork, new borders, go all out on those details and the value lost to collectors can be curbed if not exactly minimized.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
I'm not sure why people jumped on you saying that the idea of reprinting RL cards would break standard and modern wide open, actually, because that is presuming people are talking about cards like P9 or cards that have been deemed oppressive such as Ensnaring Bridge. I'd love to see Dwarven Blastminer, Mana Cache, Debt of Loyalty, Volrath's Stronghold, Vesuvan Doppelganger, Kobold Overlord, and the like in standard. For every one bad card someone names I can probably list 10+ cards that are just fine for standard environments today, and most of the bad cards are ones that wizards would likely never reprint in a standard legal set again anyway.
Of course, that has lead to them making Modern Masters and keeping prices inflated on way too many cards thanks to high box prices and the freaking mythic rarity in general, but that is another problem altogether and it's likely more a problem with the genre itself as it ages than an issue of MTG itself. Case in point Warhammer 40k, a game with a similar age to MTG, has had price inflation due to availability and model popularity as well. The aggrivating part of the hobby is the divide between more casual / deck building players and spiky net-deckathon players. Namely, how to make sure that the depth of a players wallet does not limit their ability to play with others.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I got it! They make something that's almost a functional reprint of the duals, but with even *****tier art than the original duals.
Molten Island
Land -- Island Mountain
As Molten Island enters the battlefield, each opponent may scry 1.
I can understand the rush to assume p9 and the ABUR duals, those are the cards that most people really really want expanded access to.
Dwarven Blastminer is RL? An uncommon from 7th ed? I thought they stopped adding cards to the RL years before that. Regardless, you make a great point, and i'll add to it by noting that 15 years ago, not long after i first started playing, a couple or three dozen cards were taken off the RL. I had hoped to see a reprint of Earthbind myself, but it hasn't happened yet. But never mind Earthbind for the moment (*takes a moment*). My point was that i don't remember any major uproar or blowback over those removals, so i think your plan sounds solider than mine on those grounds, but i would refer you to the fact that for the one poster who jumped at my suggestion, there are a million more who would want the same thing.
I'm not sure it's possible to achieve parity in these types of formats either, it seems impossible, but efforts to do so will generally benefit game producers in the long run.
I have no idea how you got there from my post, lol! But that's a fine idea too. Why not target opponent? Give Ivory Mask, and more importantly, Leyline of Sanctity another drawback.
I don't generally like it when people diss the alpha artists, but i'll pass on the opportunity to wax wide about it. This time.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
Announce that every card printed in Revised onwards is being removed from the RL in a year.
If wizards breaks the reserved list, these same people will repeat this with any deck list that pops up in the now revived legacy. That's why I constantly feel like they need to drop prices on masters sets to get more copies out there and get more high value cards into pre-constructed products. They are doing the complete opposite of this over the last few years.
To break the reserved list, they need to develop a means to sell the high demand singles. I know there are people scared of the whole carrion ants scenario, but times have changed since then and the audience is much bigger and just doesn't have the same mind set.
Basically, we are in a world where the price of a card is not the trade value of the card in the traditional sense of usability in deck building, as engineered explosives for example is still a narrow side board card in comparison to a fetchland.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I said it many times that playing in a magic tournament is like gambling therefore you need key cards (I don't want to get into this argument because too many players just don't get the reason why there's a Judge sitting at the table during a tournament, why playing with counterfeit cards is illegal and the concept of playing to win a prize.).
If your playing with friends - proxy the cards.
I know the reserve list sucks but there is no way wizards is going to abolish the reserve list without devaluing the price of the old cards and/or creating a new price spike for new cards.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
As for printing in Standard-legal sets, i have yet to see a counter-argument against the idea i'll expand on a little more here. Instead of 265 card opening-block set, print it at 270, with 5 extra mythics that are RL re-prints. Say they start with friendly-color ABUR duals, then the companion set actually goes deeper with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Drop of Honey, Candelabra of Tawnos, Library of Alexandria, and Moat. Next block opens with the enemy-colored ABUR duals, and the second set moves into more valuable RL cards that aren't p9. They never really have to reprint the p9, because the real interest seems more in Legacy than Vintage anyway, but what if they do? Third block reprints the Moxen in the first set and second set goes for Time Walk, Time Twister, and three less valuable cards. Fourth block opens with Black Lotus and four Urza cards, moves on to Ancestral Recall with four nice Legends cards. There are plenty of ways to tweak the actual cards, timing, and releases, this is just an example. Sure it would take a couple years, but we're a patient market in general. We've waited this long, a couple more years would only whet our appetites that much more.
By banning the cards in Standard and Modern, they leave the formats intact. As noted above, Standard and Modern players who pull the cards would get their pack cost back by trading them in, they'd be sought-after mythics. But they wouldn't be too scarce to be prohibitive for newer players looking to break into those formats. Then they can re-print with limited release stuff (and/or Masters releases) as needed, and those would be major cash cows.
The older cards wouldn't completely devalue, even at first, because they'd still be the originals after all, and furthermore new art and all that jazz would enhance the status value of the originals. In time the originals might actually increase in value due to increased demand from players in those formats globally.
Am i being unintentionally dense? Is there something i'm missing in this potential scenario? If/when the collectors get litigious, settle out of court. HASBRO has deep enough pockets to back the play, and if WotC can show them how this move would grow the game through multiple formats across the entire world, i think HASBRO would see the long-term benefits as vastly outweighing the immediate out-of-pocket cost.
**Legacy**
Grixis Delver
16post
**Standard**
I'll let you know if/when i go back to Standard. I hate pulling cards i can't use.
Here is where you are wrong. we know the print runs for ABU. Beta for example has 2.6 Million sets. that means 2.6 million (theoretical) sets of black lotus, mox's, Each duel ect.
a beta Black lotus is valued at about $14,000 US each (according to SCG one of the major retails in the MTG marketplace) This means they could be out a theoretical $36,400,000,000 Thats 36 BILLION dollars, even if 90% of the black lotus's are destrotyed that are printed thats still 3.64 BILLION dollars. and thats just for black lotus. not counting duels, mox's, and every other card thats valued at $100+. To put this in to perspective, Hasbro's entire company stock is only valued at 12 Billion. It also only just last year hit a 5 billion in net revenue. You do the math they don't have "deep enough pockets" for this type of litigation. the potental cost is too high even with the assumpion that 90% of everything they have printed is no longer in circulation.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)