Since I started playing Standard mtg again in 2013 I've caught two different people cheating (casual FNM). Since then I've been very itchy/critical of people manipulating my deck, or theirs, too much.
When it comes to the shuffle, I usually just give a cut unless my opponent has table shuffled 3 times with consistent stack numbers or I've noticed anything that might be worrisome. Mostly I'll only shuffle someone's deck if they shuffle mine. Recently though I had an opponent I've never met before shuffle my deck every match for a very long time. I counted 14, 16 and 17 muddle shuffles. I kept my eyes on my deck while I shuffled his deck (incidentally I will continue to shuffle 6 times more than whatever someone else does when they shuffle my deck. Yes, it's bitterness.
Math says 7 muddle shuffles are sufficient to completely randomize a deck. So what is this guy doing? Is he waiting for me to look away? It screams trickery to me and I find it rude as s*** to make me sit and wait for 14+ shuffle.
Is there something he's doing I should be watching for other than bottom card manipulation? It could have been coincidence but I had to mull to 6 and then 5 in 2 matches so I'm deeply suspicious (with my 26 land deck).
Anyone know muddling tricks or perhaps he did nothing because I was staring at my deck...? When is it right to call a judge in this type of situation??
This really is an unreasonably long shuffle for a deck that is already randomized (after all, preenting your deck to be shuffled by the opponent is a statement, that you randomized it properly). To do such a long shuffle, he's either suspecting you are cheating, in which case he should have called a judge before even touching your deck, or he is stalling for time, which is slow play and cause for you to call a judge. Or, you may be right and he was trying to pull some cheat. In which case, call a judge! Whenever you suspect something fishy going on, call a judge! You will not be punished for being cautiuos.
He may have had a way to peek at some cards in your deck (maybe the one at the bottom, maybe even more), to see what you are playing. That is cheating. There is no way to manipulate a randomized face down pile of cards into a specific order, unless you know where certain cards are.
But 0-land hands and 1-land hands are not that uncommon even with a slightly higher than normal land count. That is just part of the game. That alone is not enough grounds for suspicion of cheating. A player never getting into such situations is much more reason to suspect cheating.
First shuffle I simply cut his cards and counted how many muddles he did of mine so I know he wasn't waiting on me. Second and third times I shuffled his deck and watched mine closely.
I don't know, the guy was very calm/confident and almost too friendly... magician qualities if you ask me. Next time I'll just call a judge after that first over shuffle. I hate having to worry about such things but also hate being a victim.
I don't know, the guy was very calm/confident and almost too friendly... magician qualities if you ask me.
Where I come from we call that "good sportsmanship," especially since it's just FNM. I feel like there's a better way to be vigilant without acting completely paranoid. Cheating is a serious problem, but this is causing you way too much stress. Not that your behavior would do much to stop a real master of sleight-of-hand.
I've been an amateur magician for about 10 years now, specializing in card tricks. If I wanted to cheat at FNM, no amount of staring would stop me. The key is, I don't. If you are good enough at slight of hand to rig a card game, why play?
Also, sleeves make it harder anyhow. I am used to doing tricks with normal playing cards. Magic cards are different enough that I'd want to practice. (Athough I do have one trick where I can appear to change my commander general by flipping the sleeve back and forth. Always good for a laugh.)
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This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
You have to because its required to prevent common problems.
Manipulating your "own" deck is issue #1 , by simply shuffling terrible, manaweaving and all this kinds of stuff people get unfair advantages or gimp their own decks without knowing.
The only valid way is to have a random deck, as random as it gets in a short time without damaging cards in the process.
In almost any case that is easy to archive, if both players give the deck a quick shuffle.
After tremendous searching effects the player will shuffle more, but its just a deal of 20 seconds and you can always do the shuffling in a down-time (that means, do not fetch for a land , shuffle and then play something, you can short cut a lot by simply waiting to shuffle till you pass to your opponent, saves a ton of time to do it out of order).
----
In a casual environment people should be to learn and have fun. Theres a bit competition, but in the end, its a terrible place to be to make a profit (just get a job for that).
Everyone should know that that plays, which is the first step to make an FNM a more enjoyable place to be.
If someone acts suspicious simply tell a judge, even after the game, so they have an eye on it (or simply become aware).
If someone cheats they will always get caught, if people "know" about it.
As a player, its not your job to investigate for cheaters.
If you think something is odd, you call a judge.
If you abuse something on your own, you are cheating too, neither player should have any advantage in the shuffling process.
----
If a player tilts a deck in a odd angle, tell them, and tell a judge to look out for it. Its a very common cheat to look at cards and "sort" some cards outs while shuffling.
But again, if you arent very familiar with these "tricks" , just tell a judge (and hope they are, sadly most judges wont really know card tricks, but they can always learn).
The most important lesson still is to enjoy playing. Being crazy paranoid wont make an event enjoyable.
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
I completely agree. And since table shuffling is the 'known' way to pre arrange your deck it should be banned as well.
I'm a friendly and sportsmanlike player. I help new people during the match, after I'll take a look (if they're interested) at their deck and offer suggestions, and I make casual conversation while enjoying the match. When I said, "the guy was very calm/confident and almost too friendly... magician qualities if you ask me", it's not because I stress about every match and player. I was referring to the one aberrant player who's qualities and actions did raise the suspicion flags. I'm just discussing the 1 in 50 or 100 match where something fishy is going on... which isn't the most fun because instead of just enjoying the game you end up on high alert trying to catch the cheater.
Who here wouldn't be suspicious of 14+ muddle shuffle? That takes quite a bit of time.
I know, call the judge. I guess that's all I can do and just hope I don't match against the suspicious guy too often. I was just wondering if there was a method other than top or bottom carding that I might need to watch for in this case.
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
If I`m not mistaken, youre allowed to call a judge and ask him to shuffle your deck instead of your opponent, if you`re concerned about the way your opponent is shuffling.
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
That's interesting. I'm always worried I would be that guerilla shuffling the opponents deck. I always try to be as delicate as possible with the cards and generally avoid shuffling unsleeved cards if I can. I only ever have one person who never sleeves his cards and he's the only person I avoid playing against for that reason.
And yes... his decks are worn down. At least they're just Modern cards.
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
If I`m not mistaken, youre allowed to call a judge and ask him to shuffle your deck instead of your opponent, if you`re concerned about the way your opponent is shuffling.
You can ask the judge but he-she has the right to refuse and that makes the situation feel even more awkward . The problem I have is, I sb a card in and Shuffle my deck, then my opponent buries the card by looking while shuffling close to the bottom of my deck. How do I prove it? It's not the bottom card its just in the bottom portion of my deck. It becomes their word against your word. I have had this happen and nothing was done about it because in the end it's the judges call not your eyes. Why can't we get a cut after our opponent is done shuffling are deck?
This is why I hate this rule. Your giving your deck to a potential cheater or some gorilla who tries to destroy your deck, and there's nothing you can do it's the rule. I get why we allow are opponent a cut but I don't get why they get to shuffle your deck. I would rather we have a 3 cut rule. You could cut your opponents deck up to 3 times but no Shuffling.
If I`m not mistaken, youre allowed to call a judge and ask him to shuffle your deck instead of your opponent, if you`re concerned about the way your opponent is shuffling.
You can ask the judge but he-she has the right to refuse and that makes the situation feel even more awkward . The problem I have is, I sb a card in and Shuffle my deck, then my opponent buries the card by looking while shuffling close to the bottom of my deck. How do I prove it? It's not the bottom card its just in the bottom portion of my deck. It becomes their word against your word. I have had this happen and nothing was done about it because in the end it's the judges call not your eyes. Why can't we get a cut after our opponent is done shuffling are deck?
I agree with an shuffling an opponent's deck, but being allowed to cut your own deck once returned would help stopping any cheating. It does not stop peeking, but the alternative is worse. However, I usually don't suspect cheating when someone shuffles my deck. Further, competitive and professional RELs require that an opponent to shuffle a presented deck.
I kept my eyes on my deck while I shuffled his deck (incidentally I will continue to shuffle 6 times more than whatever someone else does when they shuffle my deck. Yes, it's bitterness.
Also when shuffling my opponents deck I try shuffle a little less or the same as my opponent. However, if you intentionally are trying to shuffle longer than your opponent that could lead to some long shuffling. Especially, if the opponent was aiming for something similar.
Lastly, why the bitterness over shuffling? It is required for higher level RELS. Further, some people like to keep it a habit if they play at events so they don't get sloppy or just do it out of habit.
There is no perfect answer for shuffling beyond having a shuffling devise shuffle decks. I do think we deserve a cut after are opponent shuffles are deck, What would it hurt. If you suspect someone is piling your good stuff on the bottom of your deck it would give you the ability to reverse it.
Etiquette. Sorry, the spelling Nazi had to come to town. (will read this thread later...)
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If i am allowed to cut my own deck i can ALWAYS draw the card i want to draw.
Thats why its not solving anything.
Its simply the more convenient way to have the opponent do the last shuffling, if you can move cards after that, you are the one in full control again (and you can bet people manipulate decks to a buffling extend if they can pull that off).
----
In the end as a player, its simply not your job to track a cheater, you can just provide information to a judge and let them handle it.
If you find out someone cheats on you and do anything to use this knowledge to manipulate your deck, YOU are the one cheating just as well.
The way to go, collect informations and tell a judge, thats it, thats all you do as a player and if a judge is completly unwilling to act, you can report them to a higher up judge in your area which "might" give them a lesson in card tricks (but that again depends on if the judge is willing to do so, but expect the best).
In the end, you will always have some players that shuffle long and lots of players that simply do not know better as shuffling is a skill in the end, and you have to learn it, do it properly, do it faster.
If someone is shuffling extensively long, simply tell them, if a lot of people do so, they will get the point, if nobody does, it will just get worse.
I completely agree. And since table shuffling is the 'known' way to pre arrange your deck it should be banned as well.
They're already only allowed to do it once per game.
Who here wouldn't be suspicious of 14+ muddle shuffle? That takes quite a bit of time.
I wouldn't. When shuffling between games I do a lot of "What if" about my last game in my head, think about sideboard choices... sometimes I zone out but my hands are still shuffling. I bet I've done that at least once an FNM.
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When it comes to the shuffle, I usually just give a cut unless my opponent has table shuffled 3 times with consistent stack numbers or I've noticed anything that might be worrisome. Mostly I'll only shuffle someone's deck if they shuffle mine. Recently though I had an opponent I've never met before shuffle my deck every match for a very long time. I counted 14, 16 and 17 muddle shuffles. I kept my eyes on my deck while I shuffled his deck (incidentally I will continue to shuffle 6 times more than whatever someone else does when they shuffle my deck. Yes, it's bitterness.
Math says 7 muddle shuffles are sufficient to completely randomize a deck. So what is this guy doing? Is he waiting for me to look away? It screams trickery to me and I find it rude as s*** to make me sit and wait for 14+ shuffle.
Is there something he's doing I should be watching for other than bottom card manipulation? It could have been coincidence but I had to mull to 6 and then 5 in 2 matches so I'm deeply suspicious (with my 26 land deck).
Anyone know muddling tricks or perhaps he did nothing because I was staring at my deck...? When is it right to call a judge in this type of situation??
He may have had a way to peek at some cards in your deck (maybe the one at the bottom, maybe even more), to see what you are playing. That is cheating. There is no way to manipulate a randomized face down pile of cards into a specific order, unless you know where certain cards are.
But 0-land hands and 1-land hands are not that uncommon even with a slightly higher than normal land count. That is just part of the game. That alone is not enough grounds for suspicion of cheating. A player never getting into such situations is much more reason to suspect cheating.
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I don't know, the guy was very calm/confident and almost too friendly... magician qualities if you ask me. Next time I'll just call a judge after that first over shuffle. I hate having to worry about such things but also hate being a victim.
Where I come from we call that "good sportsmanship," especially since it's just FNM. I feel like there's a better way to be vigilant without acting completely paranoid. Cheating is a serious problem, but this is causing you way too much stress. Not that your behavior would do much to stop a real master of sleight-of-hand.
Also, sleeves make it harder anyhow. I am used to doing tricks with normal playing cards. Magic cards are different enough that I'd want to practice. (Athough I do have one trick where I can appear to change my commander general by flipping the sleeve back and forth. Always good for a laugh.)
Modern: Jund
Legacy: Pox
EDH: Chainer Reanimation and The Dragon Show, with Zirilan of the Claw
You have to because its required to prevent common problems.
Manipulating your "own" deck is issue #1 , by simply shuffling terrible, manaweaving and all this kinds of stuff people get unfair advantages or gimp their own decks without knowing.
The only valid way is to have a random deck, as random as it gets in a short time without damaging cards in the process.
In almost any case that is easy to archive, if both players give the deck a quick shuffle.
After tremendous searching effects the player will shuffle more, but its just a deal of 20 seconds and you can always do the shuffling in a down-time (that means, do not fetch for a land , shuffle and then play something, you can short cut a lot by simply waiting to shuffle till you pass to your opponent, saves a ton of time to do it out of order).
----
In a casual environment people should be to learn and have fun. Theres a bit competition, but in the end, its a terrible place to be to make a profit (just get a job for that).
Everyone should know that that plays, which is the first step to make an FNM a more enjoyable place to be.
If someone acts suspicious simply tell a judge, even after the game, so they have an eye on it (or simply become aware).
If someone cheats they will always get caught, if people "know" about it.
As a player, its not your job to investigate for cheaters.
If you think something is odd, you call a judge.
If you abuse something on your own, you are cheating too, neither player should have any advantage in the shuffling process.
----
If a player tilts a deck in a odd angle, tell them, and tell a judge to look out for it. Its a very common cheat to look at cards and "sort" some cards outs while shuffling.
But again, if you arent very familiar with these "tricks" , just tell a judge (and hope they are, sadly most judges wont really know card tricks, but they can always learn).
The most important lesson still is to enjoy playing. Being crazy paranoid wont make an event enjoyable.
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I completely agree. And since table shuffling is the 'known' way to pre arrange your deck it should be banned as well.
I'm a friendly and sportsmanlike player. I help new people during the match, after I'll take a look (if they're interested) at their deck and offer suggestions, and I make casual conversation while enjoying the match. When I said, "the guy was very calm/confident and almost too friendly... magician qualities if you ask me", it's not because I stress about every match and player. I was referring to the one aberrant player who's qualities and actions did raise the suspicion flags. I'm just discussing the 1 in 50 or 100 match where something fishy is going on... which isn't the most fun because instead of just enjoying the game you end up on high alert trying to catch the cheater.
Who here wouldn't be suspicious of 14+ muddle shuffle? That takes quite a bit of time.
I know, call the judge. I guess that's all I can do and just hope I don't match against the suspicious guy too often. I was just wondering if there was a method other than top or bottom carding that I might need to watch for in this case.
If I`m not mistaken, youre allowed to call a judge and ask him to shuffle your deck instead of your opponent, if you`re concerned about the way your opponent is shuffling.
That's interesting. I'm always worried I would be that guerilla shuffling the opponents deck. I always try to be as delicate as possible with the cards and generally avoid shuffling unsleeved cards if I can. I only ever have one person who never sleeves his cards and he's the only person I avoid playing against for that reason.
And yes... his decks are worn down. At least they're just Modern cards.
I agree with an shuffling an opponent's deck, but being allowed to cut your own deck once returned would help stopping any cheating. It does not stop peeking, but the alternative is worse. However, I usually don't suspect cheating when someone shuffles my deck. Further, competitive and professional RELs require that an opponent to shuffle a presented deck.
Also when shuffling my opponents deck I try shuffle a little less or the same as my opponent. However, if you intentionally are trying to shuffle longer than your opponent that could lead to some long shuffling. Especially, if the opponent was aiming for something similar.
Lastly, why the bitterness over shuffling? It is required for higher level RELS. Further, some people like to keep it a habit if they play at events so they don't get sloppy or just do it out of habit.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Thats why its not solving anything.
Its simply the more convenient way to have the opponent do the last shuffling, if you can move cards after that, you are the one in full control again (and you can bet people manipulate decks to a buffling extend if they can pull that off).
----
In the end as a player, its simply not your job to track a cheater, you can just provide information to a judge and let them handle it.
If you find out someone cheats on you and do anything to use this knowledge to manipulate your deck, YOU are the one cheating just as well.
The way to go, collect informations and tell a judge, thats it, thats all you do as a player and if a judge is completly unwilling to act, you can report them to a higher up judge in your area which "might" give them a lesson in card tricks (but that again depends on if the judge is willing to do so, but expect the best).
In the end, you will always have some players that shuffle long and lots of players that simply do not know better as shuffling is a skill in the end, and you have to learn it, do it properly, do it faster.
If someone is shuffling extensively long, simply tell them, if a lot of people do so, they will get the point, if nobody does, it will just get worse.
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They're already only allowed to do it once per game.
I wouldn't. When shuffling between games I do a lot of "What if" about my last game in my head, think about sideboard choices... sometimes I zone out but my hands are still shuffling. I bet I've done that at least once an FNM.