So I am taking a survey. Any and all people who play Magic: The Gathering Card Game that is seeing this, please give me an answer. If you DO NOT play this game, ignore this. So my friend, who I love dearly, don't get me wrong, is doing something majorly wrong in our book. He has a deck, it is Green/Red/Black. Here is the stupidly annoying part. IT IS 180+ CARDS. I add the "+" because I truly don't know exactly how many there is. It takes him FOREVER to shuffle it, and to make matters worse, HE SAYS HE WON'T CUT IT. I need a survey here and now. Should he, or should he not cut it? He keeps winning, but for extremely stupid reasons. I tried almost every deck combination possible and STILL could barely beat his deck. Even, worse, he just keeps adding on. Pretty sure he is gonna break the 200 barrier. So again, should he, or should he not cut this humongus deck of his?
According to official rules, a deck can be any size as long as its player can shuffle it without assistance, and it seems like that's the case. As for whether it's a good idea to cut the deck size down, depends on how casual or serious your playgroup is, and how exactly his deck works. If you're just messing around at the kitchen table, that's one thing. But in any other context, it's well-established that decks shouldn't ever go over 60 cards, even though it's allowed in the rules. For both quickness of shuffling and drawing the cards you want more consistently. Only Battle of Wits has any real reason to have a massive deck.
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EDH/Commander
UBR Sedris RG Omnath, Locus of Rage UB The Scarab God RUG Maelstrom Wanderer WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Why can't you beat a deck that is three times as inconsistent as a minimum-size Constructed deck? I agree with Ulquiorra in that there's no reason to use that many cards other than playing Battle of Wits, but he's still well within his rights to use a deck that's technically a lot worse than a more streamlined deck would be. Unless there's some shockingly degenerate Arc-Slogger combo that nobody knows about, you should be able to beat that deck. If you're playing mill, a mill deck should still be able to protect itself for long enough to mill that many cards, or else use an infinite combo so deck size doesn't matter.
Casual players in every card game tends to put more cards in than necessary, thinking every card is important and will help. I know I was one of them, but this sounds ridiculous.
A deck that big has to be incredibly inconsistent. Is there a reason why you guys can't beat him?
He certainly needs to cut down to 60, but if you're having trouble beating a 180+ card monstrosity, I think you should be more focused on your own gameplay than on his.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Do you mean cut as in "Remove cards"? Well, if he's winning against you (and you're the only person he players against), why should he? On the other hand, the smaller the deck, the better, and he shouldn't expect to win against a well-tuned deck (or a good player, sorry).
So, trying to beat the deck IS the problem. It's well over 200 now and he somehow always draws the cards he needs. But thing is, he can't shuffle it without having them fall out of his hands OR without having to separate them into different piles. And he always has the time to buy cards, so he ALWAYS has better cards than I do. It annoys me. He just keeps piling on the deck. Heck, the custom deck box he made he had to stop using because he made it bigger. I'm extremely annoyed. I know in a tournament it is legal, but if he ever decides to do a tournament with it, I'm calling him out with what is banned and what isn't.
There's a reason there's a minimum deck size but no maximum. By making his deck bigger, he's making it weaker.
If you lose to him consistently now, and he cuts down to his best cards or down to a more coherent strategy, what makes you think you'd be more likely to win?
(Unless your only deck wins with mill. That's basically the only way a huge deck is advantageous.)
That said, he needs to be able to adequately randomize his deck, but on the same token, his opponent is required to randomize his deck as well, so that's on both of you.
I tried to mill it, believe me I did. But low and behold, he somehow pulls a miracle and kills me in one turn. He deck is (almost) impossible to mill. Especially since he keeps adding cards.
So this deck is specifically tuned to not lose to non-infinite mill decks. In doing so, it should be paying the steep price of essentially never being able to get the cards it wants at any moment because of its sheer size and the laws of probability. And yet, the deck does always get the card it wants. Either your friend is the son of Yugi Motou and Wanda Maximoff, or he's cheating. You make it sound like the deck is still shuffle-able even though it's time consuming to shuffle, which makes the deck legal, so hey, maybe your friend is using some other technique to cheat.
Consider tuning your deck to either a) not have its win condition be mill or b) have its win condition be an infinite mill combo. If your friend still wins, with a completely gimped deck, then you're being scammed.
Why ask questions to which you already know the answer?
Isn't it obvious?
He's a bad player, and you by your own admission being consistently unable to beat him despite his deck's clear inefficiency makes your deck(s) inadequate and you even worse of a player.
It's nothing to be embarrassed about, especially if you're relatively new to the game which I'm assuming is the case. Maybe you should look at what some decent decks look like online and learn to pilot them.
If you still can't beat him with established top-tier builds, then perhaps both of you should look into a simpler game like Hearthstone since mastering MTG is evidently far off the radar. No offense, a friendly suggestion is all.
At 180+ cards, his deck's card choices create unnecessary variance and/or redundancy which either way creates counter-synergy and slows the speed at which it looks to combo out or beat down the opponent(s). Maybe you can try cards like bribery, acquire, and grinning totem in your deck to use his own cards against him. You'll certainly have a lot of options to choose from!
It's important to learn lessons in brevity when debating, so if all else fails, explain it to him simply that very often less is more.
Use tautology or pleonasms as examples.
Good luck
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
I tried to mill it, believe me I did. But low and behold, he somehow pulls a miracle and kills me in one turn. He deck is (almost) impossible to mill. Especially since he keeps adding cards.
No one's telling you to play mill. That's the only bad thing to play against him.
Unless you're actually playing a mill deck it makes sense why you're always losing.
Why ask questions to which you already know the answer?
Isn't it obvious?
He's a bad player, and you by your own admission being consistently unable to beat him despite his deck's clear inefficiency makes your deck(s) inadequate and you even worse of a player.
It's nothing to be embarrassed about, especially if you're relatively new to the game which I'm assuming is the case. Maybe you should look at what some decent decks look like online and learn to pilot them.
If you still can't beat him with established top-tier builds, then perhaps both of you should look into a simpler game like Hearthstone since mastering MTG is evidently far off the radar. No offense, a friendly suggestion is all.
At 180+ cards, his deck's card choices create unnecessary variance and/or redundancy which either way creates counter-synergy and slows the speed at which it looks to combo out or beat down the opponent(s). Maybe you can try cards like bribery, acquire, and grinning totem in your deck to use his own cards against him. You'll certainly have a lot of options to choose from!
It's important to learn lessons in brevity when debating, so if all else fails, explain it to him simply that very often less is more.
Use tautology or pleonasms as examples.
Good luck
I am not new to the game. I have played this game before and I know how to play properly and with good strategy. However, even though it may seem he is cheating, he purely isn't. I watch him and we even cut each other's decks. It's the fact that he's able to buy better cards than I do more often that I can even buy cards normally.
So the real problem is, you're playing casual jank/pauper cards while your friend is playing with the most broken cards imaginable? And repeatedly buys more of them, adding them to his deck without making any cuts? I didn't know cutthroat Spikes with unlimited funds and I-just-started-a-week-ago noobs who are purely dicking around inhabited the same body. The situation as you describe it doesn't make any sense and has internal contradictions.
If I wanted to play kitchen table stuff and I had a friend who wanted to play top tier Eternal format decks, I just wouldn't play in the same playgroup as that person.
It's the fact that he's able to buy better cards than I do more often that I can even buy cards normally.
I don't think this is a primarily financial issue. Sure, investing more gives you overall better cards, but consistency and a clear gameplan do more for a deck than individual card strength.
So, what do you mean by "buy cards normally"? If you just get a couple of boosters every now and then and build a deck purely of the limited card selection that provides, it may make sense that this winds up weaker than individually bought stronger cards that might have some actual synergy - even if they are just piled to a 200+ cards monstrosity of a deck.
You should really concentrate on a specific strategy and get some singles to enhance it. If you already do - maybe try something else or head to the casual subforum and get some advice.
Anyway, if your main problem is that you can't beat him, you should actually encourage him to add more cards, since blowing his deck up even more will not make it better, it gets weaker for every card he adds without cutting another.
I don't understand how you can lose again a deck with such inconsistency. Like, the odds of him getting decent land pulls is horrifying. Just play a cheap RDW or a G/U evolve deck. They each cost peanuts to make and you can just rush and go face. If he likes cards so much just fill his hand with Fevered Visions and watch him kill himself with draw.
What colours is he even playing?
For the record I struggle quite often with a 100 card commander deck, if he's nearing 200 cards that's no where near manageble to shuffle - if you can't easily shuffle your deck it is therefore illegal.
In most formats beside Standard, there are reasonably strong budget decks available. Even in Legacy, you could tweak a Pauper Delver list and get a reasonably strong tempo deck for around $50.
Usually it's considered a bad idea to add more cards to a 60 card deck. However, that comes with the assumption that the extra cards are not more powerful than the ones already in the 60 card deck.
Generally speaking, and disregarding synergy between cards and things like that, if the extra cards you are adding are better cards than the ones already in the deck, than you are improving the deck, assuming a few lands are also added to maintain a good land/non-land ratio.
So, should the deck be cut? I'd say yes. Even though it's getting stronger with the new additions, it could be even more powerful if the weaker cards were replaced with the new additions instead.
A few good questions have been asked and I think answers would help. Let me summarize.
1. What colors is your friend playing?
2. What are you currently playing?
3. What are some of the cards that your friend is using to win games?
4. Aside from attempting to Mill your friend, what tactics have you employed?
If your friend doesnt let you cut his deck, that should tell you something. If by cut you mean take the one half in put it below the other half like before a game. If anyone says "You cannot cut my deck" alarms go off in my head.
Is that what you mean when you say "cut"?
Edit: never mind I see you were talking about deck size. Let him do what he do. Just make a better deck.
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
A deck that big has to be incredibly inconsistent. Is there a reason why you guys can't beat him?
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
It's like the first rule about how to play.
Or he can go balls out and just do battle of wits.
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
If you lose to him consistently now, and he cuts down to his best cards or down to a more coherent strategy, what makes you think you'd be more likely to win?
(Unless your only deck wins with mill. That's basically the only way a huge deck is advantageous.)
That said, he needs to be able to adequately randomize his deck, but on the same token, his opponent is required to randomize his deck as well, so that's on both of you.
Consider tuning your deck to either a) not have its win condition be mill or b) have its win condition be an infinite mill combo. If your friend still wins, with a completely gimped deck, then you're being scammed.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Isn't it obvious?
He's a bad player, and you by your own admission being consistently unable to beat him despite his deck's clear inefficiency makes your deck(s) inadequate and you even worse of a player.
It's nothing to be embarrassed about, especially if you're relatively new to the game which I'm assuming is the case. Maybe you should look at what some decent decks look like online and learn to pilot them.
If you still can't beat him with established top-tier builds, then perhaps both of you should look into a simpler game like Hearthstone since mastering MTG is evidently far off the radar. No offense, a friendly suggestion is all.
At 180+ cards, his deck's card choices create unnecessary variance and/or redundancy which either way creates counter-synergy and slows the speed at which it looks to combo out or beat down the opponent(s). Maybe you can try cards like bribery, acquire, and grinning totem in your deck to use his own cards against him. You'll certainly have a lot of options to choose from!
It's important to learn lessons in brevity when debating, so if all else fails, explain it to him simply that very often less is more.
Use tautology or pleonasms as examples.
Good luck
No one's telling you to play mill. That's the only bad thing to play against him.
Unless you're actually playing a mill deck it makes sense why you're always losing.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
If I wanted to play kitchen table stuff and I had a friend who wanted to play top tier Eternal format decks, I just wouldn't play in the same playgroup as that person.
I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
Despite a pile of good cards, it's still janky and inconsistent regardless. A budget aggro deck can still stop it.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I don't think this is a primarily financial issue. Sure, investing more gives you overall better cards, but consistency and a clear gameplan do more for a deck than individual card strength.
So, what do you mean by "buy cards normally"? If you just get a couple of boosters every now and then and build a deck purely of the limited card selection that provides, it may make sense that this winds up weaker than individually bought stronger cards that might have some actual synergy - even if they are just piled to a 200+ cards monstrosity of a deck.
You should really concentrate on a specific strategy and get some singles to enhance it. If you already do - maybe try something else or head to the casual subforum and get some advice.
Anyway, if your main problem is that you can't beat him, you should actually encourage him to add more cards, since blowing his deck up even more will not make it better, it gets weaker for every card he adds without cutting another.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
What colours is he even playing?
For the record I struggle quite often with a 100 card commander deck, if he's nearing 200 cards that's no where near manageble to shuffle - if you can't easily shuffle your deck it is therefore illegal.
Modern:R 8Whack R|W White Knights W
Generally speaking, and disregarding synergy between cards and things like that, if the extra cards you are adding are better cards than the ones already in the deck, than you are improving the deck, assuming a few lands are also added to maintain a good land/non-land ratio.
So, should the deck be cut? I'd say yes. Even though it's getting stronger with the new additions, it could be even more powerful if the weaker cards were replaced with the new additions instead.
1. What colors is your friend playing?
2. What are you currently playing?
3. What are some of the cards that your friend is using to win games?
4. Aside from attempting to Mill your friend, what tactics have you employed?
- Matt
Is that what you mean when you say "cut"?
Edit: never mind I see you were talking about deck size. Let him do what he do. Just make a better deck.