As far as mana burn goes, even though I would have preferred it stay in the game I don't really miss it.
The one sad thing about the removal of mana burn from the game is that it fundamentally changes how certain cards play out. Cards like Eladamri's Vineyard, Power Surge, Citadel of Pain, etc. are made nearly useless by the rule change.
And how much play were they seeing when mana burn was removed to begin with?
Quite honestly, I think they should have ditched mana burn much earlier, like when they did the general rules combover in 6th Edition.
As far as mana burn goes, even though I would have preferred it stay in the game I don't really miss it.
The one sad thing about the removal of mana burn from the game is that it fundamentally changes how certain cards play out. Cards like Eladamri's Vineyard, Power Surge, Citadel of Pain, etc. are made nearly useless by the rule change.
And how much play were they seeing when mana burn was removed to begin with?
Quite honestly, I think they should have ditched mana burn much earlier, like when they did the general rules combover in 6th Edition.
How often do I have to refer to Vintage? Mana Drain used to be a Counterspell with a possible drawback, you know. Staxx would easily suffer 1-3 damage each game. Tron even sees plan in modern. Tons of rituals are played all over all formats. Vineyard saw tons of play in kitchen magic for sure.
As far as mana burn goes, even though I would have preferred it stay in the game I don't really miss it.
The one sad thing about the removal of mana burn from the game is that it fundamentally changes how certain cards play out. Cards like Eladamri's Vineyard, Power Surge, Citadel of Pain, etc. are made nearly useless by the rule change.
And how much play were they seeing when mana burn was removed to begin with?
Quite honestly, I think they should have ditched mana burn much earlier, like when they did the general rules combover in 6th Edition.
How often do I have to refer to Vintage? Mana Drain used to be a Counterspell with a possible drawback, you know. Staxx would easily suffer 1-3 damage each game. Tron even sees plan in modern. Tons of rituals are played all over all formats.
That doesn't really add up to any real significance. Competitive Modern decks with fetchlands and shocklands deal more damage to themselves pretty much every single game, the life loss you describe doesn't really mean a whole lot.
That doesn't really add up to any real significance. Competitive Modern decks with fetchlands and shocklands deal more damage to themselves pretty much every single game, the life loss you describe doesn't really mean a whole lot.
You seem really hung up on something very small.
no this topic is why magic is worse than before. if you are referring to a format thats almost exclusivly played with new cards which is a worse game than legacy or vintage you cant argue its irrelevant to the game.
That doesn't really add up to any real significance. Competitive Modern decks with fetchlands and shocklands deal more damage to themselves pretty much every single game, the life loss you describe doesn't really mean a whole lot.
You seem really hung up on something very small.
no this topic is why magic is worse than before. if you are referring to a format thats almost exclusivly played with new cards which is a worse game than legacy or vintage you cant argue its irrelevant to the game.
In case you weren't listening before, I'll say it again. I started playing back in 1996, and am familiar with the game before mana burn was removed. In all those years of playing, it was never significant. It existed, and occasionally life was lost, but never significant. When it was removed I did not miss it, and appreciated that the game had been cleaned up. In this case at least, I appreciate how WotC looked at the big picture for the good of the game as opposed to catering to the bizarre fixations of some cranky old timers.
That doesn't really add up to any real significance. Competitive Modern decks with fetchlands and shocklands deal more damage to themselves pretty much every single game, the life loss you describe doesn't really mean a whole lot.
You seem really hung up on something very small.
no this topic is why magic is worse than before. if you are referring to a format thats almost exclusivly played with new cards which is a worse game than legacy or vintage you cant argue its irrelevant to the game.
In case you weren't listening before, I'll say it again. I started playing back in 1996, and am familiar with the game before mana burn was removed. In all those years of playing, it was never significant. It existed, and occasionally life was lost, but never significant. When it was removed I did not miss it, and appreciated that the game had been cleaned up. In this case at least, I appreciate how WotC looked at the big picture for the good of the game as opposed to catering to the bizarre fixations of some cranky old timers.
Youre just ignorant dude. As me and others stated, you probably just played simple magic, because it has been relevant in competitive magic on all levels and even for a lot of casuals. Just because you never used a rule, it doesnt mean nobody did and thats the same stupid reason the devs used to abandon it.
Its not cleaning up the game like abandon interrupts or homogenizing creature types, it removed a core feature. Affects cards, gameplay, strategies and flavor.
You probably started with Portal, so who need Instants?
But whatevs. Following just that topic gives the answer to the initial question. Magic sucks, because of the community.
As far as mana burn goes, even though I would have preferred it stay in the game I don't really miss it.
The one sad thing about the removal of mana burn from the game is that it fundamentally changes how certain cards play out. Cards like Eladamri's Vineyard, Power Surge, Citadel of Pain, etc. are made nearly useless by the rule change.
And how much play were they seeing when mana burn was removed to begin with?
Quite honestly, I think they should have ditched mana burn much earlier, like when they did the general rules combover in 6th Edition.
How often do I have to refer to Vintage?
Well, did Eladramri's Vineyard, Power Surge, and Citadel of Pain see particularly much play in Vintage back in 2008/2009?
Yeah, I mean wizards is using the high cost modern cards to try and sell draft packs, but Modern is by and large a constructed deck format using cards that are out of print and no longer in standard. Draft pack selling isn't going to resolve the supply issues. They also do not have a strong desire to reprint these high demand cards in standard so it's a good question what the hold up is.
You might have answered your own question with the comment about using the high cost modern cards to sell draft packs. If the most valuable card you can get in a draft is one of the good rares from Aether Revolt, that's good, but not as spectacular as if you hit that one in one thousand (or whatever) chance to get an alternate-art Sol Ring. Magic players have already proved that they'll endure a lot for the chance at "making bank".
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
Yeah, I mean wizards is using the high cost modern cards to try and sell draft packs, but Modern is by and large a constructed deck format using cards that are out of print and no longer in standard. Draft pack selling isn't going to resolve the supply issues. They also do not have a strong desire to reprint these high demand cards in standard so it's a good question what the hold up is.
You might have answered your own question with the comment about using the high cost modern cards to sell draft packs. If the most valuable card you can get in a draft is one of the good rares from Aether Revolt, that's good, but not as spectacular as if you hit that one in one thousand (or whatever) chance to get an alternate-art Sol Ring. Magic players have already proved that they'll endure a lot for the chance at "making bank".
That would be them preying upon a mistake they made themselves to make bank instead of supporting and going for a long term, sustainable plan. Again, I don't really care anymore at this point. If the company wants to just wring cash out of an IP until it can't be squeezed anymore and leave the withered husk out to dry that's the companies own problem. There's a lot of that going around in the corporate world these days with big franchises like Call of Duty, which literally is only supported by the fervent fan base and even they are feeling burned by the Modern Warefare remastered fiasco. Wizards really can't afford to do that since they basically live and breath off of MtG.
They already turned their non-rotating format into antiquing with the level of prices on the cards, and their way of supporting the game has been making running an LGS an exercise in misery that has resulted in many small stores closing over the years.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
oh yeah, i forgot about all the cards that care for untapped lands as well.
although they got better, they also removed a strategic element from the game. but yeah, there is no collateral damage.
This is less a list of "manaburn matters" and more of a "cards that reward you for tapping out." Even if they were originally printed without manaburn we have what exactly? A 6/6 for Five that requires you to play no instants? I know things were weaker in the days of Prophecy (where this whole cycle of stuff came from) but give me a break. Manaburn wasn't why most of those cards were bad.
Also I'll just assume Maraxus was a typo, since he wanted untapped items.
Wizards really can't afford to do that since they basically live and breath off of MtG.
Minor point of contention, but I think Wizards can survive on DND. They'd be doing better if they didn't mess up their flight-path games. (As star wars x wing proved: It's a good system!)
Wizards really can't afford to do that since they basically live and breath off of MtG.
Minor point of contention, but I think Wizards can survive on DND. They'd be doing better if they didn't mess up their flight-path games. (As star wars x wing proved: It's a good system!)
That might have been true if 4th wasn't such a huge flop, (granted 5th is solid some problems.... healing potion=+2 Weapon in same treasure teir) They make some money on dnd but they REALLY hurt their base, 3.5 sold crazy well, and 4th did alot of harm. Right now Magic is I would guess their largest seller.
Wizards really can't afford to do that since they basically live and breath off of MtG.
Minor point of contention, but I think Wizards can survive on DND. They'd be doing better if they didn't mess up their flight-path games. (As star wars x wing proved: It's a good system!)
That might have been true if 4th wasn't such a huge flop, (granted 5th is solid some problems.... healing potion=+2 Weapon in same treasure teir) They make some money on dnd but they REALLY hurt their base, 3.5 sold crazy well, and 4th did alot of harm. Right now Magic is I would guess their largest seller.
I still remember when we tried to port our group into the 4th edition version of Faerun. We were in Halruaa and my friend had his fort there. If anyone followed the story at the time you can imagine how well that one went down. There wasn't enough Dues Ex Machina in the world to somehow make our crew still magically be alive so we rolled new characters. Honestly, 4th edition didn't have a bad rule set, they just managed to turn the most popular setting they had at the time into a battered wasteland with none of the heroes left intact except for an insane old man Elminster.
I would say that Magic the Gathering currently has the better worlds even if the Gatewatch story masks a lot of the good. Innistrad was a great plane and the same could be said of Mirrodin / New Phyrexia. A lot of people want to see Dominaria again, though I feel that setting didn't really get interesting until after Tempest.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
The reason large on line LGS like CFB cant keep premium cards in stock is because of their buy prices. Why would you sell to CFB or another big online store when you can sell on Ebay and put more in your pocket. But those cards they do get, they make huge profit off of. They dont have to sell the number of commons and uncommons when they can sell a couple dozen premium cards. I know of a few LGS that only sells premium cards. Meaning cards over $20. They make a killing. Usually they are the only place locally to buy such cards. Also, with on line cards, the stores some times pull cards to see effects of different things. meta changes, ban announcements. This is how the market has worked since its inception.
You again show your lack of knowledge of the market. The long time LGS owners know the cycle for new cards from new sets. They understand certain cards are a bargin in the beginning because they are going to go up. Mainly rare lands. They also know which planeswalkers are going to see play. I know LGS owners that buy up new cards for 3 months after they are released. They never see the case in the store or the on line shop. They just hoard them knowing they are going tp make their money back in multiples. now if they have done this with every set and they see the prices start to go up and break out those cards, a few play sets at a time, they make money hand over fist ... and the cycle repeats itself. This is how long time, older LGS have stayed in business for so long. They understand the market and understand how to make money off the market. Change that market, its going ot effect the LGS profit margins, in turn will hurt some LGS.
Cheaper cards will only help the players who cant afford them now. No one else. Its going to hurt everyone else involved with the game.
I wrote this post three times and I can't seem to come up with a good response. So here are the bullet points.
* In 96ish, give or take a handful of years. Mana Burn was a real thing and decks took advantage of it or built around. Sure some decks ignore it, but this is no different than ignoring say.... milling.
* Because of the above, i find it weird that people playing in the 90's never encountered it. I encountered it at least once, usually more, during tournaments. It didn't dominate, but it sure stung!
* I never encountered anyone that didn't understand it. Not know? Yes. Not understand? No. The batch caused more questions than mana burn.
* Yes, people complained. But IIRC, it was never to get rid of it or how hard to understand but the strategies revolving around it. No different than the life loss experienced with Necro.
* I like mana burn but I don't think it should make a come back. I would, however, like to see a version in a card, like an enchantment, to enable it.
I can write more but most of it just flames random people so I'll stop here.
I wrote this post three times and I can't seem to come up with a good response. So here are the bullet points.
* In 96ish, give or take a handful of years. Mana Burn was a real thing and decks took advantage of it or built around. Sure some decks ignore it, but this is no different than ignoring say.... milling.
* Because of the above, i find it weird that people playing in the 90's never encountered it. I encountered it at least once, usually more, during tournaments. It didn't dominate, but it sure stung!
* I never encountered anyone that didn't understand it. Not know? Yes. Not understand? No. The batch caused more questions than mana burn.
* Yes, people complained. But IIRC, it was never to get rid of it or how hard to understand but the strategies revolving around it. No different than the life loss experienced with Necro.
* I like mana burn but I don't think it should make a come back. I would, however, like to see a version in a card, like an enchantment, to enable it.
I can write more but most of it just flames random people so I'll stop here.
I'd never liked the removal of mana burn, but the rule was changed over 5 years ago. Yeah, it sort of screwed over some strategies and a few cards but I think the intent was to limit the start rules, therefore maybe one day we'll have a card that causes mana burn
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
The reason large on line LGS like CFB cant keep premium cards in stock is because of their buy prices. Why would you sell to CFB or another big online store when you can sell on Ebay and put more in your pocket. But those cards they do get, they make huge profit off of. They dont have to sell the number of commons and uncommons when they can sell a couple dozen premium cards. I know of a few LGS that only sells premium cards. Meaning cards over $20. They make a killing. Usually they are the only place locally to buy such cards. Also, with on line cards, the stores some times pull cards to see effects of different things. meta changes, ban announcements. This is how the market has worked since its inception.
You again show your lack of knowledge of the market. The long time LGS owners know the cycle for new cards from new sets. They understand certain cards are a bargin in the beginning because they are going to go up. Mainly rare lands. They also know which planeswalkers are going to see play. I know LGS owners that buy up new cards for 3 months after they are released. They never see the case in the store or the on line shop. They just hoard them knowing they are going tp make their money back in multiples. now if they have done this with every set and they see the prices start to go up and break out those cards, a few play sets at a time, they make money hand over fist ... and the cycle repeats itself. This is how long time, older LGS have stayed in business for so long. They understand the market and understand how to make money off the market. Change that market, its going ot effect the LGS profit margins, in turn will hurt some LGS.
Cheaper cards will only help the players who cant afford them now. No one else. Its going to hurt everyone else involved with the game.
Big Expanisions like Amonkhet and Kaladesh feature 15 Mythic Rares, smaller expansions have 12-14. Mythic rares appear in 1 out of 8 packs. A playset of a given Mythic Rare mathematically requires opening 386-480 packs depending on expansion. All of the top decks in Standard utilize at least one Mythic Rare they need 4 of. Buylist shmylist, this is simple mathematical scarcity here.
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
The reason large on line LGS like CFB cant keep premium cards in stock is because of their buy prices. Why would you sell to CFB or another big online store when you can sell on Ebay and put more in your pocket. But those cards they do get, they make huge profit off of. They dont have to sell the number of commons and uncommons when they can sell a couple dozen premium cards. I know of a few LGS that only sells premium cards. Meaning cards over $20. They make a killing. Usually they are the only place locally to buy such cards. Also, with on line cards, the stores some times pull cards to see effects of different things. meta changes, ban announcements. This is how the market has worked since its inception.
You again show your lack of knowledge of the market. The long time LGS owners know the cycle for new cards from new sets. They understand certain cards are a bargin in the beginning because they are going to go up. Mainly rare lands. They also know which planeswalkers are going to see play. I know LGS owners that buy up new cards for 3 months after they are released. They never see the case in the store or the on line shop. They just hoard them knowing they are going tp make their money back in multiples. now if they have done this with every set and they see the prices start to go up and break out those cards, a few play sets at a time, they make money hand over fist ... and the cycle repeats itself. This is how long time, older LGS have stayed in business for so long. They understand the market and understand how to make money off the market. Change that market, its going ot effect the LGS profit margins, in turn will hurt some LGS.
Cheaper cards will only help the players who cant afford them now. No one else. Its going to hurt everyone else involved with the game.
Bo, you say I don't know anything about card sales and mention other people making a killing on selling a few premium cards.
1) How did they get the cards?
2) How long did they keep the cards stored before selling?
3) Exactly how many cards did the sell in one month of premium cards?
4) What are these premium cards? Because I can tell you right now no one is making money off of mythics and rares at the high costs unless they were speccing and not actually selling cards the way that should be done. At least not at the level that can support an LGS strictly on those sales.
The more you keep going on about this the more it seems like you know less about the situation with card sales than you are letting on. Assuming the stores were speccing, the best specs for profit are the small fry that are relatively low cost cards. Commons that were once 20 cents going to a dollar are great money and I know several outlets that made bank on Gitaxian Probe because of the price jumps that went through. Some of those same outlets also got into Serum Visions. None of them talk much about the super high cost cards that currently flock modern like Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, etc.
The exception were things like the fetchlands because of the MM2017 reprint. Fancy that the price would go down because they actually got cards in stock and were able to sell them to a larger audience for profit. What you seem to be describing is an antiquing market and that is a bit different. There are outlets that basically deal in nothing but reserved list trading and cards that are likely to not receive significant reprints, but those are not representative of what the game needs for actively played tournament formats.
Reading over what you posted you still seem to not be getting the point and are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. What are you arguing for? What is your goal in this Bocephus? To maintain a status quo that is clearly failing and causing issues for hundreds of players?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) How did they get the cards?
2) How long did they keep the cards stored before selling?
3) Exactly how many cards did the sell in one month of premium cards?
4) What are these premium cards? Because I can tell you right now no one is making money off of mythics and rares at the high costs unless they were speccing and not actually selling cards the way that should be done. At least not at the level that can support an LGS strictly on those sales.
1. Either players are trading in to get other cards they need, buying collections, buying draft fodder that the player doesnt want or need and would rather have the store credit.
2. They are selling enough premium cards to keep the doors open. I know of one collection the bought mainly all playable rares and mythics maybe 5000-7000 cards that spanned Legacy, Modern, and Standard at the time. The sold the whole collection piece meal in less then a month. Many people bought large amounts of what was in the collection.
3. As I said above, the store stays open and all they sell is premium cards. They dont deal in commons or uncommons. The owners said there is too much competition with the lower rarity cards. He usually has the rares and mythics other LGS dont have or cant get.
4. I am talking about Legacy and Modern staples. Goyfs, LotV, fetches, shocks, duals. He dabbles in some of the Standard playables but only because they started doing drafts. He is very selective in what he buys. He only buys cards he knows he can sell in a short period of time.
The more you keep going on about this the more it seems like you know less about the situation with card sales than you are letting on. Assuming the stores were speccing, the best specs for profit are the small fry that are relatively low cost cards
Well, part of the confusion is you keep jumping around. You talk about Modern staples then you are talking about new product. Those are 2 markets handled 2 different ways. The older cards turn over very quickly. If you hold a Goyf or LotV or fetch land for a month, something is wrong either with your pricing or you are not catering to your crowd. The store may be more a Standard crowd that wont touch the Modern and Legacy staples.
New product, LGS only have a set amount of time to buy up cheap the new cards before they increase in price at rotation. Right now LGS are buying INN2 block because when Zen rotates out, those INN cards will jump in price. Some what so with Kal block too but not as much.
Card saturation is really not an issue. If you know where to look, you can find what ever you need. If you know the right people, and you cant find what you need, they can.
My stance is the secondary market is the best its been in years. There are multiple places to get the cards you need. There is money to be made by all. This works for both the player base and the business's that rely on the game. Tanking the market like you wish to do will be bad for the game as a whole. It will drive a group of players out of the game. It will cut into prize monies for events, pushing people away from the competitive scene. I remember back when packs were 2.75-3.00 a pack and drafting was 9-10 bucks, but there wasnt but 2 or 3 cards that could cover the cost of the buy in and prize was half your entry fee if you won the event, no one wanted to draft. Today pricing is much better. You can be a new drafter and still not lose your shirt by not doing well and still learn something along the way.
Again, Wotc has gone your route. It didnt work for them as a business. That is why we are where we are at now. If they went back, they would be failing the game as a whole. Not just the player base, but the LGS and T.O.'s too.
The only cards anyone is asking for mass price decrease on is the lands. Also, my suggestions about making smaller and more affordable modern masters products with some cards being distributed differently won't tank the game. That claim is bordering superstition.
The entire crux of the issue with formats like modern is that they are constructed formats using cards that are not legal in standard and likely never get reprinted through standard. People also are being pushed to the singles market in these formats because the entire community is telling people that is the financially correct way to purchase cards for constructed. Booster packs can't support these formats. Not in a way that is long term sustainable.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
The reason large on line LGS like CFB cant keep premium cards in stock is because of their buy prices. Why would you sell to CFB or another big online store when you can sell on Ebay and put more in your pocket. But those cards they do get, they make huge profit off of. They dont have to sell the number of commons and uncommons when they can sell a couple dozen premium cards. I know of a few LGS that only sells premium cards. Meaning cards over $20. They make a killing. Usually they are the only place locally to buy such cards. Also, with on line cards, the stores some times pull cards to see effects of different things. meta changes, ban announcements. This is how the market has worked since its inception.
You again show your lack of knowledge of the market. The long time LGS owners know the cycle for new cards from new sets. They understand certain cards are a bargin in the beginning because they are going to go up. Mainly rare lands. They also know which planeswalkers are going to see play. I know LGS owners that buy up new cards for 3 months after they are released. They never see the case in the store or the on line shop. They just hoard them knowing they are going tp make their money back in multiples. now if they have done this with every set and they see the prices start to go up and break out those cards, a few play sets at a time, they make money hand over fist ... and the cycle repeats itself. This is how long time, older LGS have stayed in business for so long. They understand the market and understand how to make money off the market. Change that market, its going ot effect the LGS profit margins, in turn will hurt some LGS.
Cheaper cards will only help the players who cant afford them now. No one else. Its going to hurt everyone else involved with the game.
You know of LGS owners engaged in market manipulation? That's what I read from your second paragraph.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
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Quite honestly, I think they should have ditched mana burn much earlier, like when they did the general rules combover in 6th Edition.
How often do I have to refer to Vintage? Mana Drain used to be a Counterspell with a possible drawback, you know. Staxx would easily suffer 1-3 damage each game. Tron even sees plan in modern. Tons of rituals are played all over all formats. Vineyard saw tons of play in kitchen magic for sure.
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That doesn't really add up to any real significance. Competitive Modern decks with fetchlands and shocklands deal more damage to themselves pretty much every single game, the life loss you describe doesn't really mean a whole lot.
You seem really hung up on something very small.
This reads as though you're saying Spectral Searchlight would be "destroyed" if mana burn were returned to the game.
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no this topic is why magic is worse than before. if you are referring to a format thats almost exclusivly played with new cards which is a worse game than legacy or vintage you cant argue its irrelevant to the game.
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Youre just ignorant dude. As me and others stated, you probably just played simple magic, because it has been relevant in competitive magic on all levels and even for a lot of casuals. Just because you never used a rule, it doesnt mean nobody did and thats the same stupid reason the devs used to abandon it.
Its not cleaning up the game like abandon interrupts or homogenizing creature types, it removed a core feature. Affects cards, gameplay, strategies and flavor.
You probably started with Portal, so who need Instants?
But whatevs. Following just that topic gives the answer to the initial question. Magic sucks, because of the community.
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You might have answered your own question with the comment about using the high cost modern cards to sell draft packs. If the most valuable card you can get in a draft is one of the good rares from Aether Revolt, that's good, but not as spectacular as if you hit that one in one thousand (or whatever) chance to get an alternate-art Sol Ring. Magic players have already proved that they'll endure a lot for the chance at "making bank".
That would be them preying upon a mistake they made themselves to make bank instead of supporting and going for a long term, sustainable plan. Again, I don't really care anymore at this point. If the company wants to just wring cash out of an IP until it can't be squeezed anymore and leave the withered husk out to dry that's the companies own problem. There's a lot of that going around in the corporate world these days with big franchises like Call of Duty, which literally is only supported by the fervent fan base and even they are feeling burned by the Modern Warefare remastered fiasco. Wizards really can't afford to do that since they basically live and breath off of MtG.
They already turned their non-rotating format into antiquing with the level of prices on the cards, and their way of supporting the game has been making running an LGS an exercise in misery that has resulted in many small stores closing over the years.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
This is less a list of "manaburn matters" and more of a "cards that reward you for tapping out." Even if they were originally printed without manaburn we have what exactly? A 6/6 for Five that requires you to play no instants? I know things were weaker in the days of Prophecy (where this whole cycle of stuff came from) but give me a break. Manaburn wasn't why most of those cards were bad.
Also I'll just assume Maraxus was a typo, since he wanted untapped items.
Minor point of contention, but I think Wizards can survive on DND. They'd be doing better if they didn't mess up their flight-path games. (As star wars x wing proved: It's a good system!)
That might have been true if 4th wasn't such a huge flop, (granted 5th is solid some problems.... healing potion=+2 Weapon in same treasure teir) They make some money on dnd but they REALLY hurt their base, 3.5 sold crazy well, and 4th did alot of harm. Right now Magic is I would guess their largest seller.
I still remember when we tried to port our group into the 4th edition version of Faerun. We were in Halruaa and my friend had his fort there. If anyone followed the story at the time you can imagine how well that one went down. There wasn't enough Dues Ex Machina in the world to somehow make our crew still magically be alive so we rolled new characters. Honestly, 4th edition didn't have a bad rule set, they just managed to turn the most popular setting they had at the time into a battered wasteland with none of the heroes left intact except for an insane old man Elminster.
I would say that Magic the Gathering currently has the better worlds even if the Gatewatch story masks a lot of the good. Innistrad was a great plane and the same could be said of Mirrodin / New Phyrexia. A lot of people want to see Dominaria again, though I feel that setting didn't really get interesting until after Tempest.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The reason large on line LGS like CFB cant keep premium cards in stock is because of their buy prices. Why would you sell to CFB or another big online store when you can sell on Ebay and put more in your pocket. But those cards they do get, they make huge profit off of. They dont have to sell the number of commons and uncommons when they can sell a couple dozen premium cards. I know of a few LGS that only sells premium cards. Meaning cards over $20. They make a killing. Usually they are the only place locally to buy such cards. Also, with on line cards, the stores some times pull cards to see effects of different things. meta changes, ban announcements. This is how the market has worked since its inception.
You again show your lack of knowledge of the market. The long time LGS owners know the cycle for new cards from new sets. They understand certain cards are a bargin in the beginning because they are going to go up. Mainly rare lands. They also know which planeswalkers are going to see play. I know LGS owners that buy up new cards for 3 months after they are released. They never see the case in the store or the on line shop. They just hoard them knowing they are going tp make their money back in multiples. now if they have done this with every set and they see the prices start to go up and break out those cards, a few play sets at a time, they make money hand over fist ... and the cycle repeats itself. This is how long time, older LGS have stayed in business for so long. They understand the market and understand how to make money off the market. Change that market, its going ot effect the LGS profit margins, in turn will hurt some LGS.
Cheaper cards will only help the players who cant afford them now. No one else. Its going to hurt everyone else involved with the game.
I wrote this post three times and I can't seem to come up with a good response. So here are the bullet points.
* In 96ish, give or take a handful of years. Mana Burn was a real thing and decks took advantage of it or built around. Sure some decks ignore it, but this is no different than ignoring say.... milling.
* Because of the above, i find it weird that people playing in the 90's never encountered it. I encountered it at least once, usually more, during tournaments. It didn't dominate, but it sure stung!
* I never encountered anyone that didn't understand it. Not know? Yes. Not understand? No. The batch caused more questions than mana burn.
* Yes, people complained. But IIRC, it was never to get rid of it or how hard to understand but the strategies revolving around it. No different than the life loss experienced with Necro.
* I like mana burn but I don't think it should make a come back. I would, however, like to see a version in a card, like an enchantment, to enable it.
I can write more but most of it just flames random people so I'll stop here.
I'd never liked the removal of mana burn, but the rule was changed over 5 years ago. Yeah, it sort of screwed over some strategies and a few cards but I think the intent was to limit the start rules, therefore maybe one day we'll have a card that causes mana burn
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Big Expanisions like Amonkhet and Kaladesh feature 15 Mythic Rares, smaller expansions have 12-14. Mythic rares appear in 1 out of 8 packs. A playset of a given Mythic Rare mathematically requires opening 386-480 packs depending on expansion. All of the top decks in Standard utilize at least one Mythic Rare they need 4 of. Buylist shmylist, this is simple mathematical scarcity here.
Bo, you say I don't know anything about card sales and mention other people making a killing on selling a few premium cards.
1) How did they get the cards?
2) How long did they keep the cards stored before selling?
3) Exactly how many cards did the sell in one month of premium cards?
4) What are these premium cards? Because I can tell you right now no one is making money off of mythics and rares at the high costs unless they were speccing and not actually selling cards the way that should be done. At least not at the level that can support an LGS strictly on those sales.
The more you keep going on about this the more it seems like you know less about the situation with card sales than you are letting on. Assuming the stores were speccing, the best specs for profit are the small fry that are relatively low cost cards. Commons that were once 20 cents going to a dollar are great money and I know several outlets that made bank on Gitaxian Probe because of the price jumps that went through. Some of those same outlets also got into Serum Visions. None of them talk much about the super high cost cards that currently flock modern like Liliana of the Veil, Tarmogoyf, etc.
The exception were things like the fetchlands because of the MM2017 reprint. Fancy that the price would go down because they actually got cards in stock and were able to sell them to a larger audience for profit. What you seem to be describing is an antiquing market and that is a bit different. There are outlets that basically deal in nothing but reserved list trading and cards that are likely to not receive significant reprints, but those are not representative of what the game needs for actively played tournament formats.
Reading over what you posted you still seem to not be getting the point and are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. What are you arguing for? What is your goal in this Bocephus? To maintain a status quo that is clearly failing and causing issues for hundreds of players?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. Either players are trading in to get other cards they need, buying collections, buying draft fodder that the player doesnt want or need and would rather have the store credit.
2. They are selling enough premium cards to keep the doors open. I know of one collection the bought mainly all playable rares and mythics maybe 5000-7000 cards that spanned Legacy, Modern, and Standard at the time. The sold the whole collection piece meal in less then a month. Many people bought large amounts of what was in the collection.
3. As I said above, the store stays open and all they sell is premium cards. They dont deal in commons or uncommons. The owners said there is too much competition with the lower rarity cards. He usually has the rares and mythics other LGS dont have or cant get.
4. I am talking about Legacy and Modern staples. Goyfs, LotV, fetches, shocks, duals. He dabbles in some of the Standard playables but only because they started doing drafts. He is very selective in what he buys. He only buys cards he knows he can sell in a short period of time.
Well, part of the confusion is you keep jumping around. You talk about Modern staples then you are talking about new product. Those are 2 markets handled 2 different ways. The older cards turn over very quickly. If you hold a Goyf or LotV or fetch land for a month, something is wrong either with your pricing or you are not catering to your crowd. The store may be more a Standard crowd that wont touch the Modern and Legacy staples.
New product, LGS only have a set amount of time to buy up cheap the new cards before they increase in price at rotation. Right now LGS are buying INN2 block because when Zen rotates out, those INN cards will jump in price. Some what so with Kal block too but not as much.
Card saturation is really not an issue. If you know where to look, you can find what ever you need. If you know the right people, and you cant find what you need, they can.
My stance is the secondary market is the best its been in years. There are multiple places to get the cards you need. There is money to be made by all. This works for both the player base and the business's that rely on the game. Tanking the market like you wish to do will be bad for the game as a whole. It will drive a group of players out of the game. It will cut into prize monies for events, pushing people away from the competitive scene. I remember back when packs were 2.75-3.00 a pack and drafting was 9-10 bucks, but there wasnt but 2 or 3 cards that could cover the cost of the buy in and prize was half your entry fee if you won the event, no one wanted to draft. Today pricing is much better. You can be a new drafter and still not lose your shirt by not doing well and still learn something along the way.
Again, Wotc has gone your route. It didnt work for them as a business. That is why we are where we are at now. If they went back, they would be failing the game as a whole. Not just the player base, but the LGS and T.O.'s too.
The entire crux of the issue with formats like modern is that they are constructed formats using cards that are not legal in standard and likely never get reprinted through standard. People also are being pushed to the singles market in these formats because the entire community is telling people that is the financially correct way to purchase cards for constructed. Booster packs can't support these formats. Not in a way that is long term sustainable.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
We got a Bolas didn't we?
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
You know of LGS owners engaged in market manipulation? That's what I read from your second paragraph.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.