Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
I wouldn't really call the singles market for Magic healthy by any means. Mythic rarity has caused a lot of damage, and the current arrangement serves speculators and collectors at the expense of players and LGS.
I wouldn't really call the singles market for Magic healthy by any means. Mythic rarity has caused a lot of damage, and the current arrangement serves speculators and collectors at the expense of players and LGS.
The secondary market is both the best and worst thing to happen to magic since the introduction of the stack.
I wouldn't really call the singles market for Magic healthy by any means. Mythic rarity has caused a lot of damage, and the current arrangement serves speculators and collectors at the expense of players and LGS.
The secondary market is both the best and worst thing to happen to magic since the introduction of the stack.
I started playing in 1996 when 4th edition was the core set and Alliances was the newest expansion. The secondary market was a thing then.
I wouldn't really call the singles market for Magic healthy by any means. Mythic rarity has caused a lot of damage, and the current arrangement serves speculators and collectors at the expense of players and LGS.
The secondary market is both the best and worst thing to happen to magic since the introduction of the stack.
I started playing in 1996 when 4th edition was the core set and Alliances was the newest expansion. The secondary market was a thing then.
I feel like you understood what I meant, but used a stricter meaning of "since" than I did just so you could make this "point".
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
There is more to that. The market is both flooded and underserved. It's underserved for Mythic rares and high demand cards from out of print sets, but the amount of packs card sellers need to open to meet market demand for Mythic Rare singles floods the market for anything of lesser rarity. If a card isn't in a popular deck, it's value is pretty much zero. While this is nice for people buying those cheap singles, like me, it makes opening sealed product as a player self-defeating, and that shouldn't be. I wouldn't have been able to build my current collection without the current singles market being what it is, but I really miss opening packs being worthwhile, and for the hobby as a whole I think that's a bad thing.
Yeah, I mean wizards is using the high cost modern cards to try and sell draft packs, but Modern is by and large a constructed deck format using cards that are out of print and no longer in standard. Draft pack selling isn't going to resolve the supply issues. They also do not have a strong desire to reprint these high demand cards in standard so it's a good question what the hold up is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
There is more to that. The market is both flooded and underserved. It's underserved for Mythic rares and high demand cards from out of print sets, but the amount of packs card sellers need to open to meet market demand for Mythic Rare singles floods the market for anything of lesser rarity. If a card isn't in a popular deck, it's value is pretty much zero. While this is nice for people buying those cheap singles, like me, it makes opening sealed product as a player self-defeating, and that shouldn't be. I wouldn't have been able to build my current collection without the current singles market being what it is, but I really miss opening packs being worthwhile, and for the hobby as a whole I think that's a bad thing.
I can't think of a way to make opening packs ever worthwhile. If all the cards are good, then the cards lose value because the back is still priced at four dollars. If all the cards are bad, then there's no reason to open the pack. If the pack is limited, then the prices go up and you shouldn't open the pack. If the packs are plentiful, then the cost of what's inside will decrease.
The way YGO does it, regular reprints* and have key engine cards at common (Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder for example). Alongside basic removal i.e things like Lighting Strike, Doom Blade, and then having cross set compatability via basic engine pieces for (Shrine the Forsaken God) at common.
Additionally have plurality of your be set of "playable" commons, cards like Ponder, Preordain. Don't have Matter Reshapers at Rare. They are basic cards. These cards ought to be readily and easily avaliable. Because they are in fact a cornerstone of their respective deck. Likewise for cards like Sylvan Advocate. You should open these and be like "I want to make a land matter deck." Remove the vanilla fillers. Every rare and mythic should do something or be something. They should be generic or for niche strategies, not define the deck. Cards that define the deck (Marvel and Collossus) should be easily acccessible. And mechanics should be workable with older cards (Fate Counters).
However that all stateds card that are format defining (Marvel, Felidar Gaurdian, etc) should be mythic. The point is crack open a pack and not think "What my rare?" It's "let us see what we got, how many of these are usable?". Downfall is fine at rare as long as Doom Blade exists. Additionally the reason why regular reprints are important. The reason you buy singles is that it's cheaper than buying a bunch of packs. However let us say the set had reasonable level of quality playables and you knew in about 6-8 months that desired card be reprinted. Specifically reprinted in an intro deck a big box stores for 12 dollars to demand.
This being a regular and known pattern. So if you own the 40 dollar card via packs before then go on yeah. If not you know you can wait. So reprints depress singles but increase players buying sets. And finally most important of all, because of that rarity trading exists. I have and seen folks trade 20 dollar secrets in Yugioh for 11 dollar ones. Assuming the 11 dollar is reasonably playable. Why? Both players know the 20 dollar card won't hold it value and are willing to trade for a similar rarity.
Making packs worthwhile, is removing the feel bad of looking at the pack and seeing useless chaff.
*Reprint means able to buy it in a fashion that is confirmed pull and a regular and understood pattern
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
There is more to that. The market is both flooded and underserved. It's underserved for Mythic rares and high demand cards from out of print sets, but the amount of packs card sellers need to open to meet market demand for Mythic Rare singles floods the market for anything of lesser rarity. If a card isn't in a popular deck, it's value is pretty much zero. While this is nice for people buying those cheap singles, like me, it makes opening sealed product as a player self-defeating, and that shouldn't be. I wouldn't have been able to build my current collection without the current singles market being what it is, but I really miss opening packs being worthwhile, and for the hobby as a whole I think that's a bad thing.
I can't think of a way to make opening packs ever worthwhile. If all the cards are good, then the cards lose value because the back is still priced at four dollars. If all the cards are bad, then there's no reason to open the pack. If the pack is limited, then the prices go up and you shouldn't open the pack. If the packs are plentiful, then the cost of what's inside will decrease.
Your right, with the exception of that first month or two, Most packs will be worth less then the singles held within them on average, This only makes sense, (it itn't during the opening months because demand is considerably higher then supply but as supply flows out this is a self regulating fix) Mythic Rareity and to a lesser extent Goyf have caused massive problems in the single market, Lots of stores were burned by Goyf seling it as low value bulk back when it was first printed, Then it became as we know one the most valuable card in teh set. To prevent losing that burn again stores have jacked up preorder prices on everything (even more then they were before.) No one wants to miss the next goyf skyrocket card.
I don't trade anymore, I used to love to trade bring a binder to an event and trade with other people for interesting mid range cards for tinkering/casual, that doesn't happen anymore, lots of people I know don't even put anything that isn't $20 or more IN a binder, Everything is high end and they are only looking for other high end stuff or to make a "gain/profit" What has been said is true Mythic rares have depressed alot of rares values. Back in the days of old it was fairly easy to trade because lots of stuff was worth $5-$10 range. The only way to help level things out is to have LOTS of similar valued things to make packs more apealing, you need less $50 mythics and more $5 rares. To do this you need all the mythics in a set to be total jank.
still reading and agreeing with most of the stuff said on the first 5 pages ^^
What i think needs the game now is to fire MaRo and get Garfield back to the game. Innistrad one and Timespiral were the outstanding sets from the last 10 years and both of them Garfield was involved. MaRo is just the poisonous steward with really bad ideas.
still reading and agreeing with most of the stuff said on the first 5 pages ^^
What i think needs the game now is to fire MaRo and get Garfield back to the game. Innistrad one and Timespiral were the outstanding sets from the last 10 years and both of them Garfield was involved. MaRo is just the poisonous steward with really bad ideas.
As far as I can tell, Richard Garfield had nothing to do with Time Spiral; he wasn't one of the designers or developers. I even looked up Planar Chaos and Future Sight to see if he was involved in those, but nope. Perhaps you meant Ravnica.
However, it's very odd to be praising Innistrad and Time Spiral while condemning Mark Rosewater, as Mark Rosewater was lead designer of Innistrad and on the design team for Time Spiral (although not lead). And if you meant Ravnica, then that makes even less sense because Rosewater was lead designer on that set also.
Mark has his fingers in so many different pies it's hard to really tell if he is the cause of a particular decision or not. That's just the sort of person that guy is. To be honest, it really feels like wizards has logistical reasons behind the lack of direct reprints to address the modern supply shortage issue on cards. They probably have to set the print facilities up a certain way to keep getting standard sets released on time and it's easier for them to make something like a draft set than a box set of paired cards like Vingolf 2 or 3 from the Force of Will Company.
Ideally, the best way to handle modern would be to probably have a trade in program for singles sellers to trade in bulk for the cards that people are after from rotating sets. Being able to trade 100 bulk cards for a desirable rare or 200 for a mythic would probably do wonders.
The real culprit for the issues with the modern market are likely stemming from the great recession.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I definitely like the idea posted here about having masters type sets with a set list of certain high value lands, I think they said one of each, or maybe allied or enemy, and then have the packs be lottery. I think that would help modern. The lands are really the only reason I don't bother with modern, even though I have a ton of great modern cards, and fairly expensive ones like goyf and liliana; but without the best lands, you will lose more often than not because your opponent will statistically top deck better than you if they even use one fetch. I think as far as standard goes, they admitted that answers need to be better and I expect them to make better ones. But I'm not expecting bolts; we will probably just get lightning strike; which honestly I am okay with. BUT, I think they seriously need to reach a middle ground with the spells matter type of players and bring back drawbacks on big midrangey and larger creatures like lord of the pit or force of nature. I bet khans standard wouldn't have been such a rhino swing fest if siege rhino said the when it etb YOU lose 3 life and each opponent gains 3. or if thragtusk also gave your opponent a 3/3 when it died. They don't like having balanced creatures, but I personally thought the game was dramatically better when your big bomb creatures could also hurt you if you weren't careful. You actually had to be a good player back in the days, and think about your bombs, not just jam them all in and let them win the game for you with their etb triggers. The fans of midrange slugfests will be more disappointed, but then again they would still have their big beat sticks, it just wouldn't force everyone to play the same cards to even have a shot
Yeah, I was the one to bring up the idea here, but really that is what a lot of other games already are doing with mana-bases in order to promote deck brewing. There's nothing wrong with using lands to sell packs, but when the lands are rotated out of standard and have very little chance of seeing a major reprint there is no reason to not reprint them in that fashion, and even if they did print them again in standard it would just put the lands prices at the same level as the current cycle lands or the temples eventually.
Dropping costs on good lands also lets wizards improve products like Commander, the deck builders toolkits, and other pre-constructed products since the lands wont be overly expensive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Said it once and I will say it again, if everyone had their playset of fetchlands and shocklands for cheap the price of Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil wouldn't bother them so much. There's a reason the very first cards in chinese counterfeiters' lists were duals, fetchlands and shocklands. People faultlessly expect $50 to pay for a game-winning card, not for the most basic component in the game.
It doesn't even help the LGS or singles sellers to have overpriced and undersupplied lands, either. Especially given the whole buy list angle of this.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Said it once and I will say it again, if everyone had their playset of fetchlands and shocklands for cheap the price of Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil wouldn't bother them so much. There's a reason the very first cards in chinese counterfeiters' lists were duals, fetchlands and shocklands. People faultlessly expect $50 to pay for a game-winning card, not for the most basic component in the game.
Well yea, once you knock a few hundred dollars of the price of a deck you're much more willing to buy it.
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
You added that little bit after I wrote my response. Dont try and make it look like I ignored it.
As to the last paragraph you added, I disagree. The secondary market works better now then it ever has. Any card you want is on Ebay or one of thousands of MTG LGS online stores. Back in the day you only had your local LGS or large events or trading. The Mythic rarity and how most of them turned out to be playable in constructed formats, which was not how they were originally marketed has effected a very small portion of cards. Wotc does not have an obligation to print older cards just because a player cant afford those on the market now. You complain about reprints for Modern like the reprint issue has never been a problem in the game before. Legacy had the exact same problem and players played lower tier decks to save up, trade up, and work up to those higher tier decks.
I will admit, the secondary market is another part of the MTG experience some players dont always want to take the time to learn or even understand. That is not Wotc's fault.
still reading and agreeing with most of the stuff said on the first 5 pages ^^
What i think needs the game now is to fire MaRo and get Garfield back to the game. Innistrad one and Timespiral were the outstanding sets from the last 10 years and both of them Garfield was involved. MaRo is just the poisonous steward with really bad ideas.
I was going to point out what Lord Seth did so I will skip that part.
You do realize Timespiral as a block sold terribly and was considered a failure by Wotc.
I think this is a clear situation where the player wants or needs something different then the company.
still reading and agreeing with most of the stuff said on the first 5 pages ^^
What i think needs the game now is to fire MaRo and get Garfield back to the game. Innistrad one and Timespiral were the outstanding sets from the last 10 years and both of them Garfield was involved. MaRo is just the poisonous steward with really bad ideas.
I was going to point out what Lord Seth did so I will skip that part.
You do realize Timespiral as a block sold terribly and was considered a failure by Wotc.
I think this is a clear situation where the player wants or needs something different then the company.
This is true. Legacy/Modern players want what WotC cannot provide for them. Too bad WotC cannot figure out how to provide for that vast, untapped market of consumers. In this age of Uber-Capitalism, one would think somebody in that company would figure out how to tap that market.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Yes, it is. But their goal for modern might be a different goal than you have for the format.
They don´t want it to grow too much, rather keep it at a stable size. They have no problem with people prized out of the format for that reason.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
You added that little bit after I wrote my response. Dont try and make it look like I ignored it.
As to the last paragraph you added, I disagree. The secondary market works better now then it ever has. Any card you want is on Ebay or one of thousands of MTG LGS online stores. Back in the day you only had your local LGS or large events or trading. The Mythic rarity and how most of them turned out to be playable in constructed formats, which was not how they were originally marketed has effected a very small portion of cards. Wotc does not have an obligation to print older cards just because a player cant afford those on the market now. You complain about reprints for Modern like the reprint issue has never been a problem in the game before. Legacy had the exact same problem and players played lower tier decks to save up, trade up, and work up to those higher tier decks.
I will admit, the secondary market is another part of the MTG experience some players dont always want to take the time to learn or even understand. That is not Wotc's fault.
Apologies on that one Bocephus. I wasn't implying you didn't include it intentionally. I was editing and you beat me to the punch.
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I started playing magic in 1995 and stopped somewhere around Weatherlight. Besides a few events with borrowed decks TimeSpiral was the set that brought me back to magic and I know a lot of people that brought it back as well. It might be a worse set for the masses, but it hooked some lost players to the game again.
I actually stopped playing again when they decided to ban Survival in Legacy before the meta could adjust. I played Legacy at some points, when the meta got some fresh cards, just to see them banned as well. (Misstep, Treausure Cruise)
In my view, MaRo is responsible for most of the bad stuff happened to magic. Like the whole NWO thing, abandon Manaburn, flooding the game with Walkers, Flipcards, cheap artworks etc.
We had a similiar discussion going on the pauperforum, basically the only format i still play or try to play since everybody seems to play EDH exclusively in my area. So Ill quote myself.
My main problems with magic today
-worse frame and artworks for a fantasy game than the old ones = boring cards/less immersion. Much potential wasted on the overall look. (borderless full arts for example)
-removal of manaburn (its huge in vintage)
-introduction of planeswalkers
-still stuffing the best cards into blue, and on top even when they´d belong to other colors (Snapcaster Mage, TNN, Treasure Cruise and so forth)
-removal of "unfun" mechanics like land destruction, discard, cheap counterpells and removal
-handling of the restricted/banlists
-reserved list
Standard was never really interesting to me, since it always felt like a trialversion of magic. Eternal has always been the better format and legacy was much bigger than standard. High entry prices (lately due to speculation) and low card availabilty were always existent. The introduction of modern and the drop of support from wotc and eventually scg killed the format though.
Okay, let's support modern by printing tons of draft cards no one wants, sprinkle it with cards that desperately need restocking, saddle sellers with tons of product they can't sell and force them to have to buy list the cards every player is after even if they are narrowly focused because players in modern mostly net deck or community think tank, and slowly drive prices up with time because the sellers need to turn a profit on cards that are both limited on the market and have a shrinking number of buyers because of rising costs.
So much for LGS support there. Oh and amonkhet is literally making no money for the singles market either, which a ton of LGS depend on.
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You really dont understand the singles market.
The newest sets are meant for moving sealed product. Its all about selling packs and boxes. That is done through drafts and sealed events along with those who desire to buy boxes to get that thrill of cracking packs. Amonkhet singles will start selling well when the print run stops. When new interactions from new sets come out and interact with Amonkhet. Whatch which cards spike in price when rotation comes around. It is not the new set cards, its the cards from sets between the new set and the block rotating out. Usually those sets are out of print, and are not being cracked for limited events so supply is drying up. LGS are stocking up on Amonkhet now, because they know in a few months they will be in demand.
As for supporting Modern. They are doing more now for Modern then they ever did for Legacy simply with the masters sets every other year. Modern should feel lucky to get 1-3 cards out of every set printed. Ask Legacy players how many sets they had to go before they might have gotten 1 addition or upgrade. Granted there was a period of time around Alara where there were multiple upgrades for almost all the played creatures from days of old. But Legacy was already over a decade old by then.
Wotc could never print another master set or reprint of staple cards for Modern and Modern would never die. Granted players like you would be upset, but the format would continue. In all honesty, Modern does not need reprints or the support you desire for it to continue. As its been mentioned before, Modern can not be the #1 format for the company. Wotc can not let that happen, and we are seeing how they have chosen to keep the format in check. Like it or not.
I wouldn't really call the singles market for Magic healthy by any means. Mythic rarity has caused a lot of damage, and the current arrangement serves speculators and collectors at the expense of players and LGS.
I started playing in 1996 when 4th edition was the core set and Alliances was the newest expansion. The secondary market was a thing then.
I feel like you understood what I meant, but used a stricter meaning of "since" than I did just so you could make this "point".
Copying the missing part of the quote...
The only reason the system worked for 20 years, as Bocephus put it, is because the mtg community was smaller and card demand more spread out. Around 2011-2012 the impact of the games growth began to show as more people entered the game, and with competitive mtg being popular those people looked for an easy jumping off point. This lead to more and more demand on specific singles since those players would find winning deck lists and focus buying those cards. Meanwhile, wizards kept going business as usual and printing draft and limited without addressing the stress caused by the online card listings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There is more to that. The market is both flooded and underserved. It's underserved for Mythic rares and high demand cards from out of print sets, but the amount of packs card sellers need to open to meet market demand for Mythic Rare singles floods the market for anything of lesser rarity. If a card isn't in a popular deck, it's value is pretty much zero. While this is nice for people buying those cheap singles, like me, it makes opening sealed product as a player self-defeating, and that shouldn't be. I wouldn't have been able to build my current collection without the current singles market being what it is, but I really miss opening packs being worthwhile, and for the hobby as a whole I think that's a bad thing.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Additionally have plurality of your be set of "playable" commons, cards like Ponder, Preordain. Don't have Matter Reshapers at Rare. They are basic cards. These cards ought to be readily and easily avaliable. Because they are in fact a cornerstone of their respective deck. Likewise for cards like Sylvan Advocate. You should open these and be like "I want to make a land matter deck." Remove the vanilla fillers. Every rare and mythic should do something or be something. They should be generic or for niche strategies, not define the deck. Cards that define the deck (Marvel and Collossus) should be easily acccessible. And mechanics should be workable with older cards (Fate Counters).
However that all stateds card that are format defining (Marvel, Felidar Gaurdian, etc) should be mythic. The point is crack open a pack and not think "What my rare?" It's "let us see what we got, how many of these are usable?". Downfall is fine at rare as long as Doom Blade exists. Additionally the reason why regular reprints are important. The reason you buy singles is that it's cheaper than buying a bunch of packs. However let us say the set had reasonable level of quality playables and you knew in about 6-8 months that desired card be reprinted. Specifically reprinted in an intro deck a big box stores for 12 dollars to demand.
This being a regular and known pattern. So if you own the 40 dollar card via packs before then go on yeah. If not you know you can wait. So reprints depress singles but increase players buying sets. And finally most important of all, because of that rarity trading exists. I have and seen folks trade 20 dollar secrets in Yugioh for 11 dollar ones. Assuming the 11 dollar is reasonably playable. Why? Both players know the 20 dollar card won't hold it value and are willing to trade for a similar rarity.
Making packs worthwhile, is removing the feel bad of looking at the pack and seeing useless chaff.
*Reprint means able to buy it in a fashion that is confirmed pull and a regular and understood pattern
CerberusJund (Modern)GRB
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant Morphentress (Commander) GUB
I also play YGO (DragunFusion) and Hearthstone (Dragon Control Warrior)
Your right, with the exception of that first month or two, Most packs will be worth less then the singles held within them on average, This only makes sense, (it itn't during the opening months because demand is considerably higher then supply but as supply flows out this is a self regulating fix) Mythic Rareity and to a lesser extent Goyf have caused massive problems in the single market, Lots of stores were burned by Goyf seling it as low value bulk back when it was first printed, Then it became as we know one the most valuable card in teh set. To prevent losing that burn again stores have jacked up preorder prices on everything (even more then they were before.) No one wants to miss the next goyf skyrocket card.
I don't trade anymore, I used to love to trade bring a binder to an event and trade with other people for interesting mid range cards for tinkering/casual, that doesn't happen anymore, lots of people I know don't even put anything that isn't $20 or more IN a binder, Everything is high end and they are only looking for other high end stuff or to make a "gain/profit" What has been said is true Mythic rares have depressed alot of rares values. Back in the days of old it was fairly easy to trade because lots of stuff was worth $5-$10 range. The only way to help level things out is to have LOTS of similar valued things to make packs more apealing, you need less $50 mythics and more $5 rares. To do this you need all the mythics in a set to be total jank.
What i think needs the game now is to fire MaRo and get Garfield back to the game. Innistrad one and Timespiral were the outstanding sets from the last 10 years and both of them Garfield was involved. MaRo is just the poisonous steward with really bad ideas.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t
However, it's very odd to be praising Innistrad and Time Spiral while condemning Mark Rosewater, as Mark Rosewater was lead designer of Innistrad and on the design team for Time Spiral (although not lead). And if you meant Ravnica, then that makes even less sense because Rosewater was lead designer on that set also.
Ideally, the best way to handle modern would be to probably have a trade in program for singles sellers to trade in bulk for the cards that people are after from rotating sets. Being able to trade 100 bulk cards for a desirable rare or 200 for a mythic would probably do wonders.
The real culprit for the issues with the modern market are likely stemming from the great recession.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Dropping costs on good lands also lets wizards improve products like Commander, the deck builders toolkits, and other pre-constructed products since the lands wont be overly expensive.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You added that little bit after I wrote my response. Dont try and make it look like I ignored it.
As to the last paragraph you added, I disagree. The secondary market works better now then it ever has. Any card you want is on Ebay or one of thousands of MTG LGS online stores. Back in the day you only had your local LGS or large events or trading. The Mythic rarity and how most of them turned out to be playable in constructed formats, which was not how they were originally marketed has effected a very small portion of cards. Wotc does not have an obligation to print older cards just because a player cant afford those on the market now. You complain about reprints for Modern like the reprint issue has never been a problem in the game before. Legacy had the exact same problem and players played lower tier decks to save up, trade up, and work up to those higher tier decks.
I will admit, the secondary market is another part of the MTG experience some players dont always want to take the time to learn or even understand. That is not Wotc's fault.
I was going to point out what Lord Seth did so I will skip that part.
You do realize Timespiral as a block sold terribly and was considered a failure by Wotc.
I think this is a clear situation where the player wants or needs something different then the company.
This is true. Legacy/Modern players want what WotC cannot provide for them. Too bad WotC cannot figure out how to provide for that vast, untapped market of consumers. In this age of Uber-Capitalism, one would think somebody in that company would figure out how to tap that market.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Apologies on that one Bocephus. I wasn't implying you didn't include it intentionally. I was editing and you beat me to the punch.
Also it sounds like you missed the point on the paragraph. Of course you can eBay cards and go to tcgplayer or what have you. But have you ever stopped to ponder how, despite a lack of product being pushed to stores, those sellers keep high demand cards in stock?
The fact is the supply of cards on the second hand market is finite. When a place like channel fireball runs out of an out of print card, they use a buy list to get more of that card stocked. Since most of those cards are also in high demand players don't want to give up on them without a premium, so stores have to offer high rates. When the store does this and gets the cards, they then have to sell those back at a profit, which has to include overhead for the shipping and card protection. Since the cards being sold are so expensive, there aren't a lot of buyers so they may make 6 dollars off a chalice of the void if they are lucky in one month.
If the cards are supplied properly and the prices brought down, it increases the number of potential buyers and thus helps the store since now they can make multiple sales, so profits go from 6 dollars on one copy sold to 50 or 60 USD from 20 copies at a lower overhead. That is what supporting an LGS looks like. Players may see devaluation, but in exchange they get greater accessibility.
High cost cards in modern are literally bad for every single party except investors and speculators. Also, even if a store decides to sit on cards after buy listing as part of a speculation, they still have to pay for storage, which may not be an issue for major sellers, but small LGS tend to be different in that regard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I actually stopped playing again when they decided to ban Survival in Legacy before the meta could adjust. I played Legacy at some points, when the meta got some fresh cards, just to see them banned as well. (Misstep, Treausure Cruise)
In my view, MaRo is responsible for most of the bad stuff happened to magic. Like the whole NWO thing, abandon Manaburn, flooding the game with Walkers, Flipcards, cheap artworks etc.
We had a similiar discussion going on the pauperforum, basically the only format i still play or try to play since everybody seems to play EDH exclusively in my area. So Ill quote myself.
My main problems with magic today
-worse frame and artworks for a fantasy game than the old ones = boring cards/less immersion. Much potential wasted on the overall look. (borderless full arts for example)
-removal of manaburn (its huge in vintage)
-introduction of planeswalkers
-still stuffing the best cards into blue, and on top even when they´d belong to other colors (Snapcaster Mage, TNN, Treasure Cruise and so forth)
-removal of "unfun" mechanics like land destruction, discard, cheap counterpells and removal
-handling of the restricted/banlists
-reserved list
Standard was never really interesting to me, since it always felt like a trialversion of magic. Eternal has always been the better format and legacy was much bigger than standard. High entry prices (lately due to speculation) and low card availabilty were always existent. The introduction of modern and the drop of support from wotc and eventually scg killed the format though.
T2 powpercube Value https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/37t