The telling sign the game is doing well is the number of new LGS that are popping up. That means the pie is big enough to support more LGS and in turn players. If those LGS are making it, that means players are coming out and playing the game. No matter how much the vocal minority complains about the game being bad.
I don't know about America, but I'm truly sceptic of how many of these supposed LGS actually exist in physical form in Europe. The online-market is absurdly oversaturated by product and singles from spanish, czech and greek sellers, but not because thousands of people suddenly became interested in magic, but because their economy is in the gutter and it's easy, basically risk-free money. The 'shops' in those countries are only making it because they can afford to crush the competition of say, austrian, german or swiss shops and others with super-low prices due to aforementioned economy. One guy does it, it works. next guy sees it, wants his share of the pie and it still works. Rinse, repeat, look at magiccardmarket and that's the result you get.
I've been playing for 15 years, with me even working at my lgs now, and I haven't heard of a single new store that's at least somewhat dedicated to magic opening up in my vicinity. Once again, just a personal perspective, but the only people that buy cards from my private collection are speculators nowadays. So if anything, the playerbase is growing in a category that's not healthy for the game at all. Speaking of playerbase, hitting advanced plus level for an LGS is a rather steep requirement. I think the growth in playerbase has something to do with that as well, if you catch my drift.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
The telling sign the game is doing well is the number of new LGS that are popping up.
A lot of LGS are dropping Magic events and singles. Social board-gaming is a thing now and accessible miniatures games like X-Wing, Malifaux and Infinity have brought people to the tables. Meanwhile Standard doesn't fire reliably since at least PTEMA.
I'm also pretty sure we had a thread about Magic sales trending downwards Q1-Q3 2016.
Finally, if Legacy, Modern and Commander didn't exist. Close to 60% of the people even talking about Magic not only on this forum, but social media in general, wouldn't be there. And blockbuster products like Commander decks, Eternal Masters and Modern Masters wouldn't sell or maybe even exist.
You aren't arguing from an invulnerable position, as your tone may imply, Hasbro themselves think Magic is floundering and hope to revitalize it soon with Magic Digital Next and whatever new direction they pushed on R&D for HOD onwards.
So... What do you want then? I see all this complaining from everyone, and points are valid, but I don't see anyone giving any examples of what to do?
From what I gather everyone just wants to reprint old OP blue cards for all the blue mages who are butthurt? Or even new, even more op counters with added draw or something? O guess people aren't as excited about as fortold or censor even.
Look, it's easy to push creatures without breaking EVERYTHING. Sure you end up headed toward midrange land, but it's better than warping every format to require you to rub blue (cough treasure cruise and dig through time)
Were you playing Standard while Treasure Cruise was legal? because if you did you'd know why it was the only sanctioned format it didn't get banned or restricted from, it didn't do much of anything. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been the lord of Standard since it showed up and it looks like he'll continue to dominate till he's forced away by rotation.
That is what people are tired of, threats that are impossible to defeat unless you're playing them yourself or the one single other deck in standard that's strong enough to compete. What most people who are dissatisfied with contemporary Magic want, from the comments in this thread, is for Aggro, Control and Combo to be viable in some form, and for there to be decks that fill the gap between limited bulk and PT Top8. If you think that means we want to take away your critters and all play draw-go forever and ever, that's on all you
I feel one of MTG's core problems is that it seems to have the equivalent of ADHD. It can never sit and focus on one plane for more than a single block. But whats that? The point of the game is that we travel the multiverse? Quite so. However we can never have a breather. Off to the next plane with a major disaster about to conveniently occur on its door step. We can't have a follow-up block to find out what happens next and instead got to wait 4+ years for that to happen. Like after almost 10 years I just want to revisit Lorwyn and find out what happened next on the plane and what has changed once both the Day & Night halves have been merged. But nope, got to travel anywhere but Lorwyn.
The telling sign the game is doing well is the number of new LGS that are popping up. That means the pie is big enough to support more LGS and in turn players. If those LGS are making it, that means players are coming out and playing the game. No matter how much the vocal minority complains about the game being bad.
I don't know about America, but I'm truly sceptic of how many of these supposed LGS actually exist in physical form in Europe. The online-market is absurdly oversaturated by product and singles from spanish, czech and greek sellers, but not because thousands of people suddenly became interested in magic, but because their economy is in the gutter and it's easy, basically risk-free money. The 'shops' in those countries are only making it because they can afford to crush the competition of say, austrian, german or swiss shops and others with super-low prices due to aforementioned economy. One guy does it, it works. next guy sees it, wants his share of the pie and it still works. Rinse, repeat, look at magiccardmarket and that's the result you get.
I've been playing for 15 years, with me even working at my lgs now, and I haven't heard of a single new store that's at least somewhat dedicated to magic opening up in my vicinity. Once again, just a personal perspective, but the only people that buy cards from my private collection are speculators nowadays. So if anything, the playerbase is growing in a category that's not healthy for the game at all. Speaking of playerbase, hitting advanced plus level for an LGS is a rather steep requirement. I think the growth in playerbase has something to do with that as well, if you catch my drift.
I will give you an example. I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois in the mid west of America.
10 years ago we had 4 maybe 5 LGS to choose from. These were the days of 40-70 player FNMs. Pre releases and release parties were huge. Depending on the set, 100+ players.
5 years ago we had around a dozen LGS. FNMs were around 30-50 players. This is about the time they went away from release events and only had pre release events. Still most LGS had 50+ per flight for pre release events.
1 year ago we had 18-20 LGS to choose from. To the credit of some of the LGS owners, they are working together and shifting 'FNM' to Saturdays or Mondays. LGS 1 runs Standard on Friday night, while LGS 2 runs Modern, and LGS 3 has EDH. ON Saturday they switch formats and then again on Mondays. I can play any format any day of the week. Which is cool for the player base.
With in the last year we have had 6-8 new LGS open. Some dont run scheduled events. Some run non conventional events. Some are competing with the 18-20 for players.
I have over 2 dozen LGS I can choose from all with in 60 minutes from my house. The game has done nothing but grow in my area. Every FNM there are new players getting a DCI number. I understand not every where is probably the same. I live in a highly populated area.
Quote from Cainsson »
A lot of LGS are dropping Magic events and singles. Social board-gaming is a thing now and accessible miniatures games like X-Wing, Malifaux and Infinity have brought people to the tables. Meanwhile Standard doesn't fire reliably since at least PTEMA.
I'm also pretty sure we had a thread about Magic sales trending downwards Q1-Q3 2016.
Finally, if Legacy, Modern and Commander didn't exist. Close to 60% of the people even talking about Magic not only on this forum, but social media in general, wouldn't be there. And blockbuster products like Commander decks, Eternal Masters and Modern Masters wouldn't sell or maybe even exist.
You aren't arguing from an invulnerable position, as your tone may imply, Hasbro themselves think Magic is floundering and hope to revitalize it soon with Magic Digital Next and whatever new direction they pushed on R&D for HOD onwards.
I talk to a lot of LGS owners and have been in the game since its inception. All of them say they could not survive without Magic. Period. These are shops that have board games and other TCG card games.
You miss understood what I said about the older formats. I said Wotc should stop supporting them, not the LGS. I think Wotc should allow the player base and the larger LGS handle the older formats. If SCG wants to run Modern or Legacy events, have at it. If a LGS can fire a Legacy event, so be it. But Wotc should cut Legacy and Modern out of the PT and GP tournaments all together. This is coming from someone who plays Modern and limited only. I dont play Standard, Legacy or EDH.
If Wotc goes digital and pushes MTGO, they are going to lose a lot of players. The hit the local economies will take from the loss of these small businesses will hurt a lot. I pray Wotc doesnt go digital. At least any more then they have to this point.
As to the 2016 trends for profits. I believe Maros just said not too long ago 2016 end totals were up (another record year) over all even though they had a couple rough quarters.
The only mistakes Wotc has made in recent years is to create Modern and keep supporting Legacy.
Supporting Legacy? You mean the one set they've made for it and keeping it around for tournaments?
Modern jumped Limited as the #2 format and money put toward Legacy is just flushing money down the toilet from a business stand point. Let the bigger LGS worry about the older formats and concentrate on Standard and Limited. Wotc cant force people to play a format, but they can make it advantageous to.
So why exactly is Wizards supporting Modern and Legacy bad? Concentrating on Standard like they have been doing is part of the reason that, as you said, "Modern jumped Limited as the #2 format". People are tired of how Standard is being handled over the last two years that it's no wonder why they would rather do something else in the game.
Wotc told the player base years ago about the changes coming. No 4cmc unconditional sweepers, no 2cmc unconditional counters, removal moving up in rarity, to name a few.
First, they never said removal was going up in rarity. Secondly, no one wants 2 mana unconditional counters, people wanted Miscalculation or Complicate and we got Censor. Players want ways of dealing with these threats that are making Standard not enjoyable, they are not looking for Damnation or Wrath of God but instead things like Searing Spear or Doom Blade.
So... What do you want then? I see all this complaining from everyone, and points are valid, but I don't see anyone giving any examples of what to do?
What are you talking about? People are making perfectly valid points. We need basic forms of removal and counters to help deter threats, with better burn and smaller creatures aggro can come back and that removal and counters could help control come back again. We can't only be stuck with midrange good stuff and we need ways of taking stuff out or stopping our opponent that doesn't mean playing the same stuff and clogging up the board. People are asking for balance and not going from one extreme to the other.
From what I gather everyone just wants to reprint old OP blue cards for all the blue mages who are butthurt? Or even new, even more op counters with added draw or something? O guess people aren't as excited about as fortold or censor even.
Those cards do nothing in the current Standard, especially with Mardu Vehicles and Copy Cat running around. Your "gathering" is wrong. No one wants "OP blue cards" but decent cards that wouldn't break anything but help keep stuff at bay and make the format far more balanced than it has been in a while.
Look, it's easy to push creatures without breaking EVERYTHING. Sure you end up headed toward midrange land, but it's better than warping every format to require you to rub blue (cough treasure cruise and dig through time)
Yes, we get it, you are anti-blue, but this isn't about just only blue but the game as a whole. There has to be better counters and better removal, in whatever form it may take, to combat creatures.
My take on this is that there are a multitude of fundamental issues with the design of the game.
The Midrange Conundrum: The current design philosophy is very skewed toward midrange effects. Increasingly pushed creatures and an oversaturation of Planeswalkers combined with the severe downgrade of so called 'unfun' effects such as land destruction, counters, discard and wraths have essentially made the game all about creatures turning sideways and that's it. The addition of 'spell creatures' has further reinforced this, as what is the point of playing a three-mana counter when you can play spell queller? There is just no variety in standard anymore.
The Pro Effect: So ALL Pro Tours, PPT, PPTQ's and the majority of GP's are now Standard. With standard being the 'Pro' format, and the very limited way sets are designed, the format is quickly broken into the best 2-3 decks, which relegated every card not in these decks to chaff... then everyone is hoping that the next set will somehow change this constant cycle. Well it's just going to continue due to the state of design. Standard becomes boring very very fast. Coverage is also not very interesting now either. Who wants to just watch 2-3 decks turn creature’s sideways ad nauseum?
I have even noticed standard content has dropped a lot on places like CFB.
Design: My opinion is that the entire design team of Magic needs to be let go and new people with fresh perspectives brought in. A lot of these guys have been there a long time and are far too comfortable in their positions. There has been a slew of massive design errors recently: Vehicles, Spell Creatures, Eldrazi, and I don't know why they continue with the "free cast/play" things. It's just asking for trouble, especially since they won't print decent answers. Missing obvious combos like Saheeli and a couple of others make me question the competence of those in testing? They can't have a very good understanding of the game if they miss things that are obvious to most people. Creatures have also grown disproportionally strong as opposed to the rest of the game. Strong creatures are fine, but we need equally strong methods to balance them out. What they should be doing is having different types of strategies if not balanced, then at least focused on per set. For example, one set adds tools for control strategies, then next aggro to counter that, then midrange to counter that and so on. But the best way forward will be to have a valid control, midrange, aggro and occasionally combo equally viable in each set. This is easier said than done, but they really need to eliminate the 'not fun to new players' mentality. As what happens now is the 'new' players become experienced players and then they start looking for a more variable format which is why Modern is so popular. For the last 3 years of so, no LGS I go to ever plays standard. The events just don't fire, but Modern is packed all the time.
Loss of the Core Set: This has been one of the biggest factors with the poor state of standard. Core Sets were fantastic in plugging holes in the format and anchoring Magic in its fantasy roots. The constant parade through theme park after theme park is frankly tiring. We get to one plane, get used to it, and then bang off to some other theme park. Too much of good thing and all that. Core sets gave us a break from the world tour and allowed wizards to print cards that could not be included in plane sets due to thematic restrictions.
I will give you an example. I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois in the mid west of America.
10 years ago we had 4 maybe 5 LGS to choose from. These were the days of 40-70 player FNMs. Pre releases and release parties were huge. Depending on the set, 100+ players.
5 years ago we had around a dozen LGS. FNMs were around 30-50 players. This is about the time they went away from release events and only had pre release events. Still most LGS had 50+ per flight for pre release events.
1 year ago we had 18-20 LGS to choose from. To the credit of some of the LGS owners, they are working together and shifting 'FNM' to Saturdays or Mondays. LGS 1 runs Standard on Friday night, while LGS 2 runs Modern, and LGS 3 has EDH. ON Saturday they switch formats and then again on Mondays. I can play any format any day of the week. Which is cool for the player base.
With in the last year we have had 6-8 new LGS open. Some dont run scheduled events. Some run non conventional events. Some are competing with the 18-20 for players.
I have over 2 dozen LGS I can choose from all with in 60 minutes from my house. The game has done nothing but grow in my area. Every FNM there are new players getting a DCI number. I understand not every where is probably the same. I live in a highly populated area.
Am I the only person who read this and thinks your LGS are cannibalizing each other and not actually growing? They're fighting over the same local players? Local stores opening up isn't growth - if you said you go to GPs in town every year and every year there are more people, that would hold more weight.
I live in a mid-market city. We're growing, but we still pale in size to somewhere like Atlanta. I see the same players all over town - compared to 5 years ago, player turn out and player growth (increasing # of new faces at events) has been on the decline. A sunday standard tournament that has been firing reliably since I started back (AVR) has not fired in 2 of the last 3 weeks. New LGS pop up, but the old ones shut down as the players migrate to the store featuring the best payouts as a promo to get people in.
I am worried about Magic and I am especially worried about where it will be in 2 years. I see us going farther down the Yugioh rabbit hole.
It's more of what's wrong with the new demographic. Kids and young teens are blasted with convenient at home games. Games which probably cost $400 less to play competitively, and probably don't have the high learning curve of Magic the gathering. Games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, and Candy Crush. It's sad yes, but probably true. When I played FNM we had 20-30 people almost always. That's just the meat. But in my opinion it's more of what's not right:
Magic Vs Poker:
Poker was huge, because it was televised, and had REAL Prize Pools. These prize pools draw people, and media. Personally, and you may disagree, I would like to see 1 Million dollar prize pools and ways to satellite into these huge Magic tournaments. This would definitely spark the competitive bug in me, and i'd be more willing to spend money on cards. And ofcourse more players and more media, similar to the way LOL has a pro league, and a huge following. I believe this would draw more players, and even more GOOD players.
P.S. I would also like a better system for mulligans and getting lands into the starting hand. Maybe a system where your allowed two basics guaranteed in your starting hand or something similiar.
Everything is just creatures now. It feels like whatever effect you might want is just an ETB effect on a creature, making instants, sorceries, artifacts and actual enchantments irrelevant. Standard is interminably boring because nothing magical can be done, the game has been reduced to combat math and who lands the 10/10 hexproof beater first. All the weird archetypes of the past have been eliminated because they are "unfun" which usually just means interactive.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
Yet complaining every time a set or format doesnt appease a certain group its fine to bash the game and the format. Pot meet kettle..
Driving away players is not healthy for a company. Your remark of "Go play another game if you don't like whats happening here" has led to financial troubles even for Blizzard Entertainment when they took that exact same stance when faced with criticism for their World of Warcraft game when it used to be the biggest mmorpg on the market.
You say "WotC could survive on just standard and limited" but when faced with the criticism that the current standard and limited format lacks quality answers for a healthy format, that even WotC admits this was an error on their part due to lack of a core set, you retort with "Pot meet kettle"? Whats next? "I am rubber and you are glue"?
I am speaking for myself only, not the Magic community.
My issues, as a player since 1994, can be summed up as "WotC and Hasbro has pushed Magic so hard for profits that they've squeezed the uniqueness out of it."
I will give you an example. I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois in the mid west of America.
10 years ago we had 4 maybe 5 LGS to choose from. These were the days of 40-70 player FNMs. Pre releases and release parties were huge. Depending on the set, 100+ players.
5 years ago we had around a dozen LGS. FNMs were around 30-50 players. This is about the time they went away from release events and only had pre release events. Still most LGS had 50+ per flight for pre release events.
1 year ago we had 18-20 LGS to choose from. To the credit of some of the LGS owners, they are working together and shifting 'FNM' to Saturdays or Mondays. LGS 1 runs Standard on Friday night, while LGS 2 runs Modern, and LGS 3 has EDH. ON Saturday they switch formats and then again on Mondays. I can play any format any day of the week. Which is cool for the player base.
With in the last year we have had 6-8 new LGS open. Some dont run scheduled events. Some run non conventional events. Some are competing with the 18-20 for players.
I have over 2 dozen LGS I can choose from all with in 60 minutes from my house. The game has done nothing but grow in my area. Every FNM there are new players getting a DCI number. I understand not every where is probably the same. I live in a highly populated area.
Am I the only person who read this and thinks your LGS are cannibalizing each other and not actually growing? They're fighting over the same local players? Local stores opening up isn't growth - if you said you go to GPs in town every year and every year there are more people, that would hold more weight.
I live in a mid-market city. We're growing, but we still pale in size to somewhere like Atlanta. I see the same players all over town - compared to 5 years ago, player turn out and player growth (increasing # of new faces at events) has been on the decline. A sunday standard tournament that has been firing reliably since I started back (AVR) has not fired in 2 of the last 3 weeks. New LGS pop up, but the old ones shut down as the players migrate to the store featuring the best payouts as a promo to get people in.
I am worried about Magic and I am especially worried about where it will be in 2 years. I see us going farther down the Yugioh rabbit hole.
I had the exact same concerns when all these LGS started popping up. But you can go to any one of them and events fire. Some stores do everything, other stores have found their niche in the market and cater to a specific group of players.
You have to understand the area I am speaking of, an hour drive from me, is Milwaukee to Chicago, from the lake to Rockford. Bump that out another 30-60 minutes drive and the numbers probably double.
As a player I find it great. If I want to play Modern on a Tuesday afternoon, I know where I can go and an event will fire. Want to draft on a Monday night, got a place. Same can go for Standard and EDH. Some LGS try and run Legacy, but its hit or miss for the most part.
The player base is so large in the area PPTQs and GPQs have to be limited attendance. There is no more showing up day of and signing up. You have to plan for the bigger events and sign up sometimes weeks ahead of time.
I live in a smaller area, and I live 5 minutes from a quality LGS so I don't really go anywhere else. They do Modern, Limited, and Standard events just about every night. The Modern events pull 50-60+ people every time. Standard events pull less than half that, and many of the regulars refuse to play it at all. There is a measurable hostility towards Standard. Limited events vary wildly, from 8-12 people on slow nights to crowds as big as the Modern events.
Magic has evolved over the years and the only thing wrong is those players yearning for their favorite time in the game. Magic has to ebb and flow. If it stayed one dimensional, it would get stale for those who didnt like said time frame.
Every couple years a post like this pops up about how the game is dying. Its not dying, its changing. Wotc is a business. Limited and Standard move packs and make Wotc money hand over fist. I am actually surprised they still support anything but those 2 formats. Let the player base and LGS support the older formats for the portion of the player pool that wants to play them.
While I see what you are saying, you can't deny that Magic (and more specifically Standard and new sets) has become Battle Cruiser Magic. My sweet Mythic wins the game. Your sweet Mythic trumps anything I have. They are unbeatable, even if they are countered or killed later on.
I have had this talk with a few super intelligent people and people who I trust for their opinions on Magic, even if some don't play as much as they used to. Battle Cruiser Magic appears to be the way to make more money for the company, but in the long term, it will KILL Magic. Yes, people are super happy when they open their $40 Mythic. Yes, they are happy when they open their $100 Masterpiece. But players also realize that winning the lottery, or more specifically, Masterpieces bring down the price and value of every other card in the set. They also realize that they have more of a chance at opening that $1 Mythic than the $40 Mythic (that will plummet super fast as well, being $4 at rotation). Players realize that good game play is more important than the joy they get on that 1 day before their Mythic loses a good portion of its value the very next day.
Unfortunately, I forgot about some of my better points against Battle Cruiser Magic, but I will EDIT this post when I do. I don't think Magic is dying. But I also don't think Battle Cruiser Magic will make Magic sustainable. Eventually it gets old and players realize this. You may attract players at Prereleases who see this awesome card. But they will soon learn that Standard is full of players with more copies of that awesome card than you.
*I'll leave with an example. I borrowed a deck to play at a PPTQ because I wanted to qualify for another RPTQ, more specifically Kyoto. I play in Round 3 vs. our local Grand Prix winner (and super experienced Standard player). I am on GB. He is on Mardu Vehicles. He is making all the right plays, cruising through the game, tempoing me out. I have 0 cards in hand with no way to win the game. I consider scooping, but there is no point since he knows all the Standard cards anyway. I start to think about if there is any card that can pull me out of this game, but don't want to think too hard because I may jinx myself. I draw for the turn and ... Verdurous Gearhulk with my already Winding Constrictor and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar in play. Now I have enough to let 1 damage short of lethal through. The turn after, I am slightly in the lead. Then the turn after, my board is nearly full of 10/10s to his board of 3/2s and 4/4s. I love to win. It felt good, but yet I was disgusted that it was what Magic devolved to. Yes, top decks happen. Everyone knows that. But to be down in every aspect of the game and to come back because I drew my "awesome" Mythic just felt down right dirty. I nearly felt like I had cheated, despite being an honest player. It's sad.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I remember the last standard FNM I play in and that was when it was Odyssey block. I could build Madness and actually get by. The only rares in the deck were four Yavimaya Coast and two Genesis. Yet somehow Magic now has become a game of mythics and rares. Like if I look at the decklist for Mardu Vehicles, what do I see in the main deck and sideboard? 37 rares and 10 mythics. 62.66% is just of those rarities. 4-color Saheeli maybe cheaper and use less rares, but its the difference of spending $355 for Mardu or $226 for Saheeli. Even if you build a cheaper deck that can take on Mardu, their is a very good chance you get beat out by Saheeli.
That is what I think is wrong with magic. The emphasis on the higher rarities and the price tags associated with these sorts of decks.
Magic is at its best when you get to do stupid stuff, cool stuff, flavorful stuff, and stuff stuff. Lately, standard has been about $$$$ stuff, and it's just a little bit off putting. Standard used to be a place to try budget brews that sometimes got there. Now, modern has become that format. It is not good for wizards if a 50$ modern deck can do better in a modern tournament than a 50$ standard deck in a standard tournament.
Too many 2-card combos that, IMO, are forcefully injected into standard. They also have crazy power creep in standard/commander products, which escalates quickly. If they printed more answers and not as many bombs, the it would probably have more variety in top decks.
Magic has evolved over the years and the only thing wrong is those players yearning for their favorite time in the game. Magic has to ebb and flow. If it stayed one dimensional, it would get stale for those who didnt like said time frame.
Every couple years a post like this pops up about how the game is dying. Its not dying, its changing. Wotc is a business. Limited and Standard move packs and make Wotc money hand over fist. I am actually surprised they still support anything but those 2 formats. Let the player base and LGS support the older formats for the portion of the player pool that wants to play them.
While I see what you are saying, you can't deny that Magic (and more specifically Standard and new sets) has become Battle Cruiser Magic. My sweet Mythic wins the game. Your sweet Mythic trumps anything I have. They are unbeatable, even if they are countered or killed later on.
I have had this talk with a few super intelligent people and people who I trust for their opinions on Magic, even if some don't play as much as they used to. Battle Cruiser Magic appears to be the way to make more money for the company, but in the long term, it will KILL Magic. Yes, people are super happy when they open their $40 Mythic. Yes, they are happy when they open their $100 Masterpiece. But players also realize that winning the lottery, or more specifically, Masterpieces bring down the price and value of every other card in the set. They also realize that they have more of a chance at opening that $1 Mythic than the $40 Mythic (that will plummet super fast as well, being $4 at rotation). Players realize that good game play is more important than the joy they get on that 1 day before their Mythic loses a good portion of its value the very next day.
Unfortunately, I forgot about some of my better points against Battle Cruiser Magic, but I will EDIT this post when I do. I don't think Magic is dying. But I also don't think Battle Cruiser Magic will make Magic sustainable. Eventually it gets old and players realize this. You may attract players at Prereleases who see this awesome card. But they will soon learn that Standard is full of players with more copies of that awesome card than you.
*I'll leave with an example. I borrowed a deck to play at a PPTQ because I wanted to qualify for another RPTQ, more specifically Kyoto. I play in Round 3 vs. our local Grand Prix winner (and super experienced Standard player). I am on GB. He is on Mardu Vehicles. He is making all the right plays, cruising through the game, tempoing me out. I have 0 cards in hand with no way to win the game. I consider scooping, but there is no point since he knows all the Standard cards anyway. I start to think about if there is any card that can pull me out of this game, but don't want to think too hard because I may jinx myself. I draw for the turn and ... Verdurous Gearhulk with my already Winding Constrictor and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar in play. Now I have enough to let 1 damage short of lethal through. The turn after, I am slightly in the lead. Then the turn after, my board is nearly full of 10/10s to his board of 3/2s and 4/4s. I love to win. It felt good, but yet I was disgusted that it was what Magic devolved to. Yes, top decks happen. Everyone knows that. But to be down in every aspect of the game and to come back because I drew my "awesome" Mythic just felt down right dirty. I nearly felt like I had cheated, despite being an honest player. It's sad.
The Mythic issue I do have a problem with. Especially when they introduced them there was a bunch of double talk about not being 'needed' to play the format(s) they are played in. But I played Magic prior to the Mythic rarity and we had the same issue with bomb rares.
I am hoping we are just in a low point (or lower point) at the moment (sans pre original Ravnica) and we will go the other way in time.
Even being battle cruiser play, its still better then everything else out there, including Hearthstone. I dont know if that is good or sad.
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Why? Because playing MTGO is a miserable, grindy experience. Even if we put aside the poor visuals, interface, buggyness (none of which are deal breakers on their own) the actual gameplay of clicking through triggers, setting stops - while proper rule enforcement, is downright depressing. No real human interaction, games can last for ages with the chess clock - just sit there and click, click click through the 1995 visuals. Playing through events means hours, much of which is downtime. Magic as a digital experience is downright bad.
I was so excited back when MODO came out. I didnt have to leave the house and got to play the game. That lasted like 2 months. It was a terrible experience. I am sad to hear it hasnt changed in all these years. Honestly if they pushed MTGO now, I would probably just sell may paper collection and move on.
The MicroProse game engine did magnitudes better than MODO or Duels, and I'm sincerelly surprised it hasn't just been repurposed.
A bunch of amateurs were working on it up till EMA and despite the AI not being the most optimal opponent ever I used it a lot for testing brews just because of how fast and streamlined it was. I once crunched 23 Modern Affinity vs Burn games in less than an hour just to test wether I liked 19 or 20 lands better in WRg Burn.
I remember the last standard FNM I play in and that was when it was Odyssey block. I could build Madness and actually get by. The only rares in the deck were four Yavimaya Coast and two Genesis. Yet somehow Magic now has become a game of mythics and rares. Like if I look at the decklist for Mardu Vehicles, what do I see in the main deck and sideboard? 37 rares and 10 mythics. 62.66% is just of those rarities. 4-color Saheeli maybe cheaper and use less rares, but its the difference of spending $355 for Mardu or $226 for Saheeli. Even if you build a cheaper deck that can take on Mardu, their is a very good chance you get beat out by Saheeli.
That is what I think is wrong with magic. The emphasis on the higher rarities and the price tags associated with these sorts of decks.
This got me thinking. During the Cawblade era there were two big decks running around, Cawblade and Valakut, and yet I remember far more other decks capable of competing, like Quest for the Holy Relic, Vengevine, Burn, Vampires, Goblins, Knights, White Wheenie, mono white Cawblade, U/B control, U/W control, and RUG Control. Those were all playable even with Valakut and Cawblade running around, and there were more fringe decks that could as well.
If there were that many decks running around while we had one of the strongest decks of all time doing 6 or 7 out of Top 8's while we have almost nothing but 3 decks right now it really shows how much of a problem there is right now. There were answers to almost everything back then, minus PW's, that the only reason Cawblade took off was the combination of incredibly strong cards at the same time while right now we have close to zero answers for anything.
Makes you wonder if the people paranoid about good answers instantly meaning a devolution into draw-go vs draw-go, have ever actually played a format with strong answers.
Legacy is the weirdest, most open and most brewing-friendly format because even if your strategy wasn't tailored to win by WotC themselves, you can still count on Chalice, Top, FoW, Deathrite or simply Swords to Plowshares, to push it through.
The trouble is that they made all these fancy mechanics, but simplified the game down to the level of portal 2nd age thanks to how they have been engineering things. There is a big lack of instant speed removal that is actually playable, tons of extremely narrow and situational spells, and from what I recall it seems like just about every limited and draft I've seen recently has been who pulls the best creatures or who pulls a planeswalker. Thank goodness a lot of LGS can make bank on Pokemon right now.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How much money are those Vintage and Legacy players spending on packs and boxes? The answer is little to nothing. The older players do not support the business like the Standard and Limited players do. I know Legacy and Vintage players that have not spent a dime on cards in years. Just entry fees which are usually 100% payout so the LGS makes zero off them.
My local legacy scene consists of about 15 players or so, I know at least 2 of them buy a case every time a new set comes out from the local shops. They all play a lot of standard too. They don't seem to care for modern though. They're generally older and have real jobs and can just buy boxes whenever they feel like it. I always felt like it was a huge loss for wizards to not cater to the legacy scene, but maybe stuff like eternal masters can fix that.
But maybe the other 13 players aren't spending anything so who knows. I guess it depends on how you look at it.
The trouble is that they made all these fancy mechanics, but simplified the game down to the level of portal 2nd age thanks to how they have been engineering things. There is a big lack of instant speed removal that is actually playable, tons of extremely narrow and situational spells, and from what I recall it seems like just about every limited and draft I've seen recently has been who pulls the best creatures or who pulls a planeswalker. Thank goodness a lot of LGS can make bank on Pokemon right now.
You joke but I suspect a Portal "block" deck could beat anything in Standard not named Mardu Vehicles, Copycat or BG Delirium. That's how big the power gap in current standard is. And you can play some rather rude stuff with Portal like "8 Rains".
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I don't know about America, but I'm truly sceptic of how many of these supposed LGS actually exist in physical form in Europe. The online-market is absurdly oversaturated by product and singles from spanish, czech and greek sellers, but not because thousands of people suddenly became interested in magic, but because their economy is in the gutter and it's easy, basically risk-free money. The 'shops' in those countries are only making it because they can afford to crush the competition of say, austrian, german or swiss shops and others with super-low prices due to aforementioned economy. One guy does it, it works. next guy sees it, wants his share of the pie and it still works. Rinse, repeat, look at magiccardmarket and that's the result you get.
I've been playing for 15 years, with me even working at my lgs now, and I haven't heard of a single new store that's at least somewhat dedicated to magic opening up in my vicinity. Once again, just a personal perspective, but the only people that buy cards from my private collection are speculators nowadays. So if anything, the playerbase is growing in a category that's not healthy for the game at all. Speaking of playerbase, hitting advanced plus level for an LGS is a rather steep requirement. I think the growth in playerbase has something to do with that as well, if you catch my drift.
A lot of LGS are dropping Magic events and singles. Social board-gaming is a thing now and accessible miniatures games like X-Wing, Malifaux and Infinity have brought people to the tables. Meanwhile Standard doesn't fire reliably since at least PTEMA.
I'm also pretty sure we had a thread about Magic sales trending downwards Q1-Q3 2016.
Finally, if Legacy, Modern and Commander didn't exist. Close to 60% of the people even talking about Magic not only on this forum, but social media in general, wouldn't be there. And blockbuster products like Commander decks, Eternal Masters and Modern Masters wouldn't sell or maybe even exist.
You aren't arguing from an invulnerable position, as your tone may imply, Hasbro themselves think Magic is floundering and hope to revitalize it soon with Magic Digital Next and whatever new direction they pushed on R&D for HOD onwards.
Were you playing Standard while Treasure Cruise was legal? because if you did you'd know why it was the only sanctioned format it didn't get banned or restricted from, it didn't do much of anything. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar has been the lord of Standard since it showed up and it looks like he'll continue to dominate till he's forced away by rotation.
That is what people are tired of, threats that are impossible to defeat unless you're playing them yourself or the one single other deck in standard that's strong enough to compete. What most people who are dissatisfied with contemporary Magic want, from the comments in this thread, is for Aggro, Control and Combo to be viable in some form, and for there to be decks that fill the gap between limited bulk and PT Top8. If you think that means we want to take away your critters and all play draw-go forever and ever, that's on all you
.
I will give you an example. I live on the border of Wisconsin and Illinois in the mid west of America.
10 years ago we had 4 maybe 5 LGS to choose from. These were the days of 40-70 player FNMs. Pre releases and release parties were huge. Depending on the set, 100+ players.
5 years ago we had around a dozen LGS. FNMs were around 30-50 players. This is about the time they went away from release events and only had pre release events. Still most LGS had 50+ per flight for pre release events.
1 year ago we had 18-20 LGS to choose from. To the credit of some of the LGS owners, they are working together and shifting 'FNM' to Saturdays or Mondays. LGS 1 runs Standard on Friday night, while LGS 2 runs Modern, and LGS 3 has EDH. ON Saturday they switch formats and then again on Mondays. I can play any format any day of the week. Which is cool for the player base.
With in the last year we have had 6-8 new LGS open. Some dont run scheduled events. Some run non conventional events. Some are competing with the 18-20 for players.
I have over 2 dozen LGS I can choose from all with in 60 minutes from my house. The game has done nothing but grow in my area. Every FNM there are new players getting a DCI number. I understand not every where is probably the same. I live in a highly populated area.
I talk to a lot of LGS owners and have been in the game since its inception. All of them say they could not survive without Magic. Period. These are shops that have board games and other TCG card games.
You miss understood what I said about the older formats. I said Wotc should stop supporting them, not the LGS. I think Wotc should allow the player base and the larger LGS handle the older formats. If SCG wants to run Modern or Legacy events, have at it. If a LGS can fire a Legacy event, so be it. But Wotc should cut Legacy and Modern out of the PT and GP tournaments all together. This is coming from someone who plays Modern and limited only. I dont play Standard, Legacy or EDH.
If Wotc goes digital and pushes MTGO, they are going to lose a lot of players. The hit the local economies will take from the loss of these small businesses will hurt a lot. I pray Wotc doesnt go digital. At least any more then they have to this point.
As to the 2016 trends for profits. I believe Maros just said not too long ago 2016 end totals were up (another record year) over all even though they had a couple rough quarters.
Supporting Legacy? You mean the one set they've made for it and keeping it around for tournaments?
So why exactly is Wizards supporting Modern and Legacy bad? Concentrating on Standard like they have been doing is part of the reason that, as you said, "Modern jumped Limited as the #2 format". People are tired of how Standard is being handled over the last two years that it's no wonder why they would rather do something else in the game.
First, they never said removal was going up in rarity. Secondly, no one wants 2 mana unconditional counters, people wanted Miscalculation or Complicate and we got Censor. Players want ways of dealing with these threats that are making Standard not enjoyable, they are not looking for Damnation or Wrath of God but instead things like Searing Spear or Doom Blade.
What are you talking about? People are making perfectly valid points. We need basic forms of removal and counters to help deter threats, with better burn and smaller creatures aggro can come back and that removal and counters could help control come back again. We can't only be stuck with midrange good stuff and we need ways of taking stuff out or stopping our opponent that doesn't mean playing the same stuff and clogging up the board. People are asking for balance and not going from one extreme to the other.
Those cards do nothing in the current Standard, especially with Mardu Vehicles and Copy Cat running around. Your "gathering" is wrong. No one wants "OP blue cards" but decent cards that wouldn't break anything but help keep stuff at bay and make the format far more balanced than it has been in a while.
Yes, we get it, you are anti-blue, but this isn't about just only blue but the game as a whole. There has to be better counters and better removal, in whatever form it may take, to combat creatures.
The Midrange Conundrum: The current design philosophy is very skewed toward midrange effects. Increasingly pushed creatures and an oversaturation of Planeswalkers combined with the severe downgrade of so called 'unfun' effects such as land destruction, counters, discard and wraths have essentially made the game all about creatures turning sideways and that's it. The addition of 'spell creatures' has further reinforced this, as what is the point of playing a three-mana counter when you can play spell queller? There is just no variety in standard anymore.
The Pro Effect: So ALL Pro Tours, PPT, PPTQ's and the majority of GP's are now Standard. With standard being the 'Pro' format, and the very limited way sets are designed, the format is quickly broken into the best 2-3 decks, which relegated every card not in these decks to chaff... then everyone is hoping that the next set will somehow change this constant cycle. Well it's just going to continue due to the state of design. Standard becomes boring very very fast. Coverage is also not very interesting now either. Who wants to just watch 2-3 decks turn creature’s sideways ad nauseum?
I have even noticed standard content has dropped a lot on places like CFB.
Design: My opinion is that the entire design team of Magic needs to be let go and new people with fresh perspectives brought in. A lot of these guys have been there a long time and are far too comfortable in their positions. There has been a slew of massive design errors recently: Vehicles, Spell Creatures, Eldrazi, and I don't know why they continue with the "free cast/play" things. It's just asking for trouble, especially since they won't print decent answers. Missing obvious combos like Saheeli and a couple of others make me question the competence of those in testing? They can't have a very good understanding of the game if they miss things that are obvious to most people. Creatures have also grown disproportionally strong as opposed to the rest of the game. Strong creatures are fine, but we need equally strong methods to balance them out. What they should be doing is having different types of strategies if not balanced, then at least focused on per set. For example, one set adds tools for control strategies, then next aggro to counter that, then midrange to counter that and so on. But the best way forward will be to have a valid control, midrange, aggro and occasionally combo equally viable in each set. This is easier said than done, but they really need to eliminate the 'not fun to new players' mentality. As what happens now is the 'new' players become experienced players and then they start looking for a more variable format which is why Modern is so popular. For the last 3 years of so, no LGS I go to ever plays standard. The events just don't fire, but Modern is packed all the time.
Loss of the Core Set: This has been one of the biggest factors with the poor state of standard. Core Sets were fantastic in plugging holes in the format and anchoring Magic in its fantasy roots. The constant parade through theme park after theme park is frankly tiring. We get to one plane, get used to it, and then bang off to some other theme park. Too much of good thing and all that. Core sets gave us a break from the world tour and allowed wizards to print cards that could not be included in plane sets due to thematic restrictions.
Am I the only person who read this and thinks your LGS are cannibalizing each other and not actually growing? They're fighting over the same local players? Local stores opening up isn't growth - if you said you go to GPs in town every year and every year there are more people, that would hold more weight.
I live in a mid-market city. We're growing, but we still pale in size to somewhere like Atlanta. I see the same players all over town - compared to 5 years ago, player turn out and player growth (increasing # of new faces at events) has been on the decline. A sunday standard tournament that has been firing reliably since I started back (AVR) has not fired in 2 of the last 3 weeks. New LGS pop up, but the old ones shut down as the players migrate to the store featuring the best payouts as a promo to get people in.
I am worried about Magic and I am especially worried about where it will be in 2 years. I see us going farther down the Yugioh rabbit hole.
Magic Vs Poker:
Poker was huge, because it was televised, and had REAL Prize Pools. These prize pools draw people, and media. Personally, and you may disagree, I would like to see 1 Million dollar prize pools and ways to satellite into these huge Magic tournaments. This would definitely spark the competitive bug in me, and i'd be more willing to spend money on cards. And ofcourse more players and more media, similar to the way LOL has a pro league, and a huge following. I believe this would draw more players, and even more GOOD players.
P.S. I would also like a better system for mulligans and getting lands into the starting hand. Maybe a system where your allowed two basics guaranteed in your starting hand or something similiar.
Anyways! My 2 Cents.
I'm Rubber, You're Glue!
Everything bounces off me and sticks to you!
Ha!
My issues, as a player since 1994, can be summed up as "WotC and Hasbro has pushed Magic so hard for profits that they've squeezed the uniqueness out of it."
I had the exact same concerns when all these LGS started popping up. But you can go to any one of them and events fire. Some stores do everything, other stores have found their niche in the market and cater to a specific group of players.
You have to understand the area I am speaking of, an hour drive from me, is Milwaukee to Chicago, from the lake to Rockford. Bump that out another 30-60 minutes drive and the numbers probably double.
As a player I find it great. If I want to play Modern on a Tuesday afternoon, I know where I can go and an event will fire. Want to draft on a Monday night, got a place. Same can go for Standard and EDH. Some LGS try and run Legacy, but its hit or miss for the most part.
The player base is so large in the area PPTQs and GPQs have to be limited attendance. There is no more showing up day of and signing up. You have to plan for the bigger events and sign up sometimes weeks ahead of time.
While I see what you are saying, you can't deny that Magic (and more specifically Standard and new sets) has become Battle Cruiser Magic. My sweet Mythic wins the game. Your sweet Mythic trumps anything I have. They are unbeatable, even if they are countered or killed later on.
I have had this talk with a few super intelligent people and people who I trust for their opinions on Magic, even if some don't play as much as they used to. Battle Cruiser Magic appears to be the way to make more money for the company, but in the long term, it will KILL Magic. Yes, people are super happy when they open their $40 Mythic. Yes, they are happy when they open their $100 Masterpiece. But players also realize that winning the lottery, or more specifically, Masterpieces bring down the price and value of every other card in the set. They also realize that they have more of a chance at opening that $1 Mythic than the $40 Mythic (that will plummet super fast as well, being $4 at rotation). Players realize that good game play is more important than the joy they get on that 1 day before their Mythic loses a good portion of its value the very next day.
Unfortunately, I forgot about some of my better points against Battle Cruiser Magic, but I will EDIT this post when I do. I don't think Magic is dying. But I also don't think Battle Cruiser Magic will make Magic sustainable. Eventually it gets old and players realize this. You may attract players at Prereleases who see this awesome card. But they will soon learn that Standard is full of players with more copies of that awesome card than you.
*I'll leave with an example. I borrowed a deck to play at a PPTQ because I wanted to qualify for another RPTQ, more specifically Kyoto. I play in Round 3 vs. our local Grand Prix winner (and super experienced Standard player). I am on GB. He is on Mardu Vehicles. He is making all the right plays, cruising through the game, tempoing me out. I have 0 cards in hand with no way to win the game. I consider scooping, but there is no point since he knows all the Standard cards anyway. I start to think about if there is any card that can pull me out of this game, but don't want to think too hard because I may jinx myself. I draw for the turn and ... Verdurous Gearhulk with my already Winding Constrictor and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar in play. Now I have enough to let 1 damage short of lethal through. The turn after, I am slightly in the lead. Then the turn after, my board is nearly full of 10/10s to his board of 3/2s and 4/4s. I love to win. It felt good, but yet I was disgusted that it was what Magic devolved to. Yes, top decks happen. Everyone knows that. But to be down in every aspect of the game and to come back because I drew my "awesome" Mythic just felt down right dirty. I nearly felt like I had cheated, despite being an honest player. It's sad.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That is what I think is wrong with magic. The emphasis on the higher rarities and the price tags associated with these sorts of decks.
(W/U)(B/R)GForm of Progenitus, Shape of a Scrubland
BRGJund Tokens with Prossh, the Magic Dragon Foil
URGAnimar, the RUG CleanerFoil
RRRFeldon of the Third Path 2.0 Foil
BG(B/G)Not Another Meren DeckFoil
UR(U/R)Mizzix, Y Control and X Burn Spells
(W/U)(B/R)GHarold Ramos - The 35 Foot Long Twinkie (In +1/+1 counters)
UB(U/B)Dragonlord Silumgar
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
The Mythic issue I do have a problem with. Especially when they introduced them there was a bunch of double talk about not being 'needed' to play the format(s) they are played in. But I played Magic prior to the Mythic rarity and we had the same issue with bomb rares.
I am hoping we are just in a low point (or lower point) at the moment (sans pre original Ravnica) and we will go the other way in time.
Even being battle cruiser play, its still better then everything else out there, including Hearthstone. I dont know if that is good or sad.
I was so excited back when MODO came out. I didnt have to leave the house and got to play the game. That lasted like 2 months. It was a terrible experience. I am sad to hear it hasnt changed in all these years. Honestly if they pushed MTGO now, I would probably just sell may paper collection and move on.
A bunch of amateurs were working on it up till EMA and despite the AI not being the most optimal opponent ever I used it a lot for testing brews just because of how fast and streamlined it was. I once crunched 23 Modern Affinity vs Burn games in less than an hour just to test wether I liked 19 or 20 lands better in WRg Burn.
This got me thinking. During the Cawblade era there were two big decks running around, Cawblade and Valakut, and yet I remember far more other decks capable of competing, like Quest for the Holy Relic, Vengevine, Burn, Vampires, Goblins, Knights, White Wheenie, mono white Cawblade, U/B control, U/W control, and RUG Control. Those were all playable even with Valakut and Cawblade running around, and there were more fringe decks that could as well.
If there were that many decks running around while we had one of the strongest decks of all time doing 6 or 7 out of Top 8's while we have almost nothing but 3 decks right now it really shows how much of a problem there is right now. There were answers to almost everything back then, minus PW's, that the only reason Cawblade took off was the combination of incredibly strong cards at the same time while right now we have close to zero answers for anything.
Legacy is the weirdest, most open and most brewing-friendly format because even if your strategy wasn't tailored to win by WotC themselves, you can still count on Chalice, Top, FoW, Deathrite or simply Swords to Plowshares, to push it through.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My local legacy scene consists of about 15 players or so, I know at least 2 of them buy a case every time a new set comes out from the local shops. They all play a lot of standard too. They don't seem to care for modern though. They're generally older and have real jobs and can just buy boxes whenever they feel like it. I always felt like it was a huge loss for wizards to not cater to the legacy scene, but maybe stuff like eternal masters can fix that.
But maybe the other 13 players aren't spending anything so who knows. I guess it depends on how you look at it.
You joke but I suspect a Portal "block" deck could beat anything in Standard not named Mardu Vehicles, Copycat or BG Delirium. That's how big the power gap in current standard is. And you can play some rather rude stuff with Portal like "8 Rains".