Magic has evolved over the years and the only thing wrong is those players yearning for their favorite time in the game. Magic has to ebb and flow. If it stayed one dimensional, it would get stale for those who didnt like said time frame.
Every couple years a post like this pops up about how the game is dying. Its not dying, its changing. Wotc is a business. Limited and Standard move packs and make Wotc money hand over fist. I am actually surprised they still support anything but those 2 formats. Let the player base and LGS support the older formats for the portion of the player pool that wants to play them.
Aka "the only thing wrong with magic is it doesn't fulfill the desire of its customer base." Well gee, I'm sure sorry my desires and money are wrong. Oh well, WotC has plenty and money already and certainly don't need mine or that of huge numbers of other players.
Since they are still selling packs and boxes I would say they are meeting the needs of the part of the player base that is keeping the company in business.
No one is holding a gun to your head to buy the product or play the game. As I mentioned, the game is evolving. This isnt 1999 any more. To some thats terrible, to others thats a godsend. Wotc cant please everyone, and they know it. No matter what Wotc does there is going to be a section of the player base upset.
But in the end, its a business long before its a game. They are going to do what it takes to continue selling packs/boxes to the masses. Which means pushing Limited and Standard.
I can find you multiple threads with dozens, if not hundreds of reponses here in both the standard and limited areas complaining about how boring and samey the last few sets were, and forums as a system are almost dead themselves. I could go out on more popular social media and get you thousands of responses from the kids they are trying to appeal to.
I could also point out how aelf defeating the argument that declining market shares ahow that the system is working because of raw numbers, or the issue of confidence and brand erosion over time, or even how relying on market share momentum is explicitly a bad strategy when you are deliberately abandoning your long term player base.
What I will say ia that magic cannot compete with hearthstone and pokemon at the same niche as them. It doesn't market at kids, it has core mechanics that cannot be ahoehorned in, and it is not free to play. Losing your entire core and killing your games identity to try will not save you.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Yes, but not the way you paint it.
The chaff of the past let you build WU Heroic in RTR-THS Standard, Vampire Tribal in ZEN-SOM Standard, Owling Mine in CHK-RAV Standard, UG Madness in ODY-ONS Standard, etc.
Back in the day there was almost always a mid-level deck that wasn't the "absolute top tier all pros play this and it costs a kidney" deck, but could seriously compete with it at 5-round events. Which let players who wanted more than Craw Wurms and Shivan Dragons experience competitive Magic without feeling like they had to sink all their money just to not get crushed.
There hasn't been such a deck since KTK-BFZ. And the current R&D seems to actually be trying to discourage such a deck from existing.
I can find you multiple threads with dozens, if not hundreds of reponses here in both the standard and limited areas complaining about how boring and samey the last few sets were, and forums as a system are almost dead themselves. I could go out on more popular social media and get you thousands of responses from the kids they are trying to appeal to.
I could also point out how aelf defeating the argument that declining market shares ahow that the system is working because of raw numbers, or the issue of confidence and brand erosion over time, or even how relying on market share momentum is explicitly a bad strategy when you are deliberately abandoning your long term player base.
What I will say ia that magic cannot compete with hearthstone and pokemon at the same niche as them. It doesn't market at kids, it has core mechanics that cannot be ahoehorned in, and it is not free to play. Losing your entire core and killing your games identity to try will not save you.
You are talking about a very small segment of the player bases of those formats. Wotc has broken its own sales highs something like 6 or 7 years in a row. So sales figures are highest they have ever been. Attendance numbers are high and LGS are popping up all over the place. The lack of confidence you speak of is from those players stuck in the past and wish for it to stay 1999. Brand erosion? Increased sales for Wotc year after year doesnt sound like erosion, its change.
Hearthstone and Pokemon are not half what Magic is as a game. Personally I think Heartstone is terrible. Pokemon has had its resurgence of late but its taken years to reestablish the game.
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
I can find you multiple threads with dozens, if not hundreds of reponses here in both the standard and limited areas complaining about how boring and samey the last few sets were, and forums as a system are almost dead themselves. I could go out on more popular social media and get you thousands of responses from the kids they are trying to appeal to.
I could also point out how aelf defeating the argument that declining market shares ahow that the system is working because of raw numbers, or the issue of confidence and brand erosion over time, or even how relying on market share momentum is explicitly a bad strategy when you are deliberately abandoning your long term player base.
What I will say ia that magic cannot compete with hearthstone and pokemon at the same niche as them. It doesn't market at kids, it has core mechanics that cannot be ahoehorned in, and it is not free to play. Losing your entire core and killing your games identity to try will not save you.
You are talking about a very small segment of the player bases of those formats. Wotc has broken its own sales highs something like 6 or 7 years in a row. So sales figures are highest they have ever been. Attendance numbers are high and LGS are popping up all over the place. The lack of confidence you speak of is from those players stuck in the past and wish for it to stay 1999. Brand erosion? Increased sales for Wotc year after year doesnt sound like erosion, its change.
Hearthstone and Pokemon are not half what Magic is as a game. Personally I think Heartstone is terrible. Pokemon has had its resurgence of late but its taken years to reestablish the game.
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
To be frank the majority of complaints are from players who play constructed or buy singles. Draft players barely care about the quality of the sets outside of how boring drafting is, limited players usually don't get hit with the same problems players of standard and modern do thanks to limited card pool, etc. The trouble is that if you don't keep constructed players happy and they start leaving, the value of the cards from the sealed pool drop really rapidly and you end up with packs that are worth more sealed than the singles inside.
So long story short, even if sales figures look high, if they don't cater to singles sellers and buyers it ultimately won't matter how good the sales numbers on sealed product are in the long term.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I can find you multiple threads with dozens, if not hundreds of reponses here in both the standard and limited areas complaining about how boring and samey the last few sets were, and forums as a system are almost dead themselves. I could go out on more popular social media and get you thousands of responses from the kids they are trying to appeal to.
I could also point out how aelf defeating the argument that declining market shares ahow that the system is working because of raw numbers, or the issue of confidence and brand erosion over time, or even how relying on market share momentum is explicitly a bad strategy when you are deliberately abandoning your long term player base.
What I will say ia that magic cannot compete with hearthstone and pokemon at the same niche as them. It doesn't market at kids, it has core mechanics that cannot be ahoehorned in, and it is not free to play. Losing your entire core and killing your games identity to try will not save you.
You are talking about a very small segment of the player bases of those formats. Wotc has broken its own sales highs something like 6 or 7 years in a row. So sales figures are highest they have ever been. Attendance numbers are high and LGS are popping up all over the place. The lack of confidence you speak of is from those players stuck in the past and wish for it to stay 1999. Brand erosion? Increased sales for Wotc year after year doesnt sound like erosion, its change.
Hearthstone and Pokemon are not half what Magic is as a game. Personally I think Heartstone is terrible. Pokemon has had its resurgence of late but its taken years to reestablish the game.
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
To be frank the majority of complaints are from players who play constructed or buy singles. Draft players barely care about the quality of the sets outside of how boring drafting is, limited players usually don't get hit with the same problems players of standard and modern do thanks to limited card pool, etc. The trouble is that if you don't keep constructed players happy and they start leaving, the value of the cards from the sealed pool drop really rapidly and you end up with packs that are worth more sealed than the singles inside.
So long story short, even if sales figures look high, if they don't cater to singles sellers and buyers it ultimately won't matter how good the sales numbers on sealed product are in the long term.
I disagree. Wotc doesnt need older formats to make the business aspect of the game be profitable. All Wotc needs is Standard and Limited.
Yes some think Standard is bad right now. Some want Standards form the past every season. That is not how it works, that is not how it ever worked. There has always been 'bad' Standard environments. Yet the game has continued to evolve and change.
The telling sign the game is doing well is the number of new LGS that are popping up. That means the pie is big enough to support more LGS and in turn players. If those LGS are making it, that means players are coming out and playing the game. No matter how much the vocal minority complains about the game being bad.
I disagree. Wotc doesnt need older formats to make the business aspect of the game be profitable. All Wotc needs is Standard and Limited.
No, they could not. They would crash and burn so hard if they went with something that illogical as it would be like cutting off your own life support.
Quote from bocephus »
Yes some think Standard is bad right now. Some want Standards form the past every season. That is not how it works, that is not how it ever worked. There has always been 'bad' Standard environments. Yet the game has continued to evolve and change.
No one is asking for it. People are asking for the current standard format to have the same or similar removal spells baked into it in order to give players good answers versus threats.
Quote from bocephus »
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
One of the biggest differences with magic lately is that I don't really feel any incentive to get the new cards asap. I used to get every card I wanted from each new set the first month or two it was out. Now I just don't care, I'll wait for a price drop and or reprint.
I really miss the core sets as well. By trying to make me buy more cards I now end up buying less cards.
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
Yes, you are right that change is not accepted by all and some will always complain, but when that change is clearly not working then instead of people being "upset with change" could it be that people are actually upset by how terrible the change is rather than just the change itself? This change that has people so irked in Magic lately is not a good one and with Standard attendance falling you can't just say that this is people hating change in general.
More are headed to different formats, and one format was even created, because Standard and the new sets just don't do it for many right now. We keep being told that certain cards are too strong for reprint and yet they push the envelope in other areas that show they have no problem creating new "too strong" cards, but for some reason even basic average cards are too much right now. We're told they are catering to what people want and yet it seems far more of a majority don't want things this way, but if these were what people wanted then why would Standard be in such a rough place right now? Why would they have needed to throw all of these rewards at us lately if everything were going the way things should, especially since they tried so hard at taking away rewards. Why give rewards back if they are not needed?
This is more than just people hating the constant change of the game, there is clearly something that isn't sitting right with many and even WotC has noticed it with trying to get on the good side of players in various ways. With extra rewards, bannings, and even admitting that the game has changed too much in the wrong ways, which is why we are to expect better answers. Which ergo would bring us closer to that past you say some players are stuck in.
I disagree. Wotc doesnt need older formats to make the business aspect of the game be profitable. All Wotc needs is Standard and Limited.
No, they could not. They would crash and burn so hard if they went with something that illogical as it would be like cutting off your own life support.
Quote from bocephus »
Yes some think Standard is bad right now. Some want Standards form the past every season. That is not how it works, that is not how it ever worked. There has always been 'bad' Standard environments. Yet the game has continued to evolve and change.
No one is asking for it. People are asking for the current standard format to have the same or similar removal spells baked into it in order to give players good answers versus threats.
Quote from bocephus »
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
Looks like you beat me to the punch, but I'll add in also that there are numerous failed games that all demonstrate you can't have a strong sealed game without having some sense of value from the product inside. RIP Legend of the Five Rings, Digimon, Dragonball Z, Tomb Raider, Nightmare before Christmas, etc. If the game no longer has any kind of retainable value in the singles the game is basically hosed.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Looks like you beat me to the punch, but I'll add in also that there are numerous failed games that all demonstrate you can't have a strong sealed game without having some sense of value from the product inside. RIP Legend of the Five Rings, Digimon, Dragonball Z, Tomb Raider, Nightmare before Christmas, etc. If the game no longer has any kind of retainable value in the singles the game is basically hosed.
First let me say this is true.
Second, I didn't know that there was a Nightmare Before Christmas card game.
Third, I'll add other card games like World of Warcraft, Neopets, Hecatomb (one of the weirdest card games I've seen in ages), and Duelmasters (in America at least) to which then turned into Kaijudo (which was a far worse version).
Standard, Limited, and kitchen table drive sales, but competitive contstructed matters because that is what drives the singles market. Standard is at a low ebb right now. Many competitive players ignore it and focus on Modern instead, and Modern is a much bigger deal right now than Standard. This is fact. There are only a handful of money cards in Standard legal sets as a result, and this hurts Limited and kitchen table because we're not getting value for opening packs. I'm a kitchen table player exclusively, and at the moment I refuse to buy packs because there is no value in it compared to buying singles, and I am less inclined to go to Limited events for the same reason. The singles market for Modern, compared to Standard, is insane.
Another issue is the micromanagement of limited. Create the cards for constructed, and drafters willl still draft the set. But design for limited and you end up with limited-fodder standard with a couple bomb mythics thrown in.
How much money are those Vintage and Legacy players spending on packs and boxes? The answer is little to nothing. The older players do not support the business like the Standard and Limited players do. I know Legacy and Vintage players that have not spent a dime on cards in years. Just entry fees which are usually 100% payout so the LGS makes zero off them.
Again, asking to put old cards in the new Standard is asking for old metas. Standard ebbs and wanes. Always has. If you have not seen it, then you havent been playing very long.
Quote from Rakash »
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
Yet complaining every time a set or format doesnt appease a certain group its fine to bash the game and the format. Pot meet kettle..
Quote from Colt47 »
Looks like you beat me to the punch, but I'll add in also that there are numerous failed games that all demonstrate you can't have a strong sealed game without having some sense of value from the product inside. RIP Legend of the Five Rings, Digimon, Dragonball Z, Tomb Raider, Nightmare before Christmas, etc. If the game no longer has any kind of retainable value in the singles the game is basically hosed.
The guy who complains constantly Modern is too expensive makes the statement the cards need to be worth value to survive as a card game? Hypocrite much?
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
Yes, you are right that change is not accepted by all and some will always complain, but when that change is clearly not working then instead of people being "upset with change" could it be that people are actually upset by how terrible the change is rather than just the change itself? This change that has people so irked in Magic lately is not a good one and with Standard attendance falling you can't just say that this is people hating change in general.
More are headed to different formats, and one format was even created, because Standard and the new sets just don't do it for many right now. We keep being told that certain cards are too strong for reprint and yet they push the envelope in other areas that show they have no problem creating new "too strong" cards, but for some reason even basic average cards are too much right now. We're told they are catering to what people want and yet it seems far more of a majority don't want things this way, but if these were what people wanted then why would Standard be in such a rough place right now? Why would they have needed to throw all of these rewards at us lately if everything were going the way things should, especially since they tried so hard at taking away rewards. Why give rewards back if they are not needed?
This is more than just people hating the constant change of the game, there is clearly something that isn't sitting right with many and even WotC has noticed it with trying to get on the good side of players in various ways. With extra rewards, bannings, and even admitting that the game has changed too much in the wrong ways, which is why we are to expect better answers. Which ergo would bring us closer to that past you say some players are stuck in.
The only mistakes Wotc has made in recent years is to create Modern and keep supporting Legacy.
Modern jumped Limited as the #2 format and money put toward Legacy is just flushing money down the toilet from a business stand point. Let the bigger LGS worry about the older formats and concentrate on Standard and Limited. Wotc cant force people to play a format, but they can make it advantageous to.
Wotc told the player base years ago about the changes coming. No 4cmc unconditional sweepers, no 2cmc unconditional counters, removal moving up in rarity, to name a few.
formats (specifically Standard & Modern) should appease ALL groups. Healthy formats have variety. Variety brings in better sales and increased participation.
I agree with most of the earlier posters about how their shift in design basics (color pie and such) mostly beginning with the change around M10 have really brought the game down somewhat.
Trying to add something to that, we can easily see that since M10, the game has been oriented strongly towards "turning creatures sideways" more than anything else, and secondly being somewhat warped around planeswalkers. As far as I'm concerned, game development has predominantly suffered from a "creatures matter" mindset, and the only recent exception to that was Innistrad Miracles, where spells actually mattered, but interaction was still minimal.
Back in the rose tinted old days, the color pie basically restricted how sets were designed, and the ideas of each set and mechanic had to start fitting into those niches. They tried to get around those restrictions by weakening everything. Green no longer has as strong of fast mana. Blue no longer has as strong of counterspells, white's 1/2 drops are no longer the most aggressive by a considerable margin, and black doesn't get as good of tutoring.
Instead, they focused on making 1/2/3 drop creatures much better, and instead of making spells better, they started binding spells into creatures to increase their value. So instead of playing spells to combo with spells, we're now flickering creatures that we're using as spells, and creatures are valued by either being pushed in terms of keywords and size, or just on their ETB effects.
Artifacts are all over the place now, making colorless truly a 6th color more than just a collective group of cards every color can use. They tend to have the best fatties, incredible abilities, and equipments have rendered beneficial auras nearly obsolete.
Speaking of enchantments, it is a card type that has been severely watered down. Auras have been pushed more towards negative effects as equipments tend to be much more reliable for benefits, while board effecting abilities have continued to find homes more on creatures and artifacts than on enchantments.
Ultimately, the focus towards new creatures acting more as spells and enchantments while simultaneously trending for weaker removal and control spells have created a game state that tends to be shallow due to it being boiled down to "play creatures, swing when applicable."
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
Yet complaining every time a set or format doesnt appease a certain group its fine to bash the game and the format. Pot meet kettle..
Driving away players is not healthy for a company. Your remark of "Go play another game if you don't like whats happening here" has led to financial troubles even for Blizzard Entertainment when they took that exact same stance when faced with criticism for their World of Warcraft game when it used to be the biggest mmorpg on the market.
You say "WotC could survive on just standard and limited" but when faced with the criticism that the current standard and limited format lacks quality answers for a healthy format, that even WotC admits this was an error on their part due to lack of a core set, you retort with "Pot meet kettle"? Whats next? "I am rubber and you are glue"?
So... What do you want then? I see all this complaining from everyone, and points are valid, but I don't see anyone giving any examples of what to do?
From what I gather everyone just wants to reprint old OP blue cards for all the blue mages who are butthurt? Or even new, even more op counters with added draw or something? O guess people aren't as excited about as fortold or censor even.
Look, it's easy to push creatures without breaking EVERYTHING. Sure you end up headed toward midrange land, but it's better than warping every format to require you to rub blue (cough treasure cruise and dig through time)
I agree with most of the earlier posters about how their shift in design basics (color pie and such) mostly beginning with the change around M10 have really brought the game down somewhat.
Trying to add something to that, we can easily see that since M10, the game has been oriented strongly towards "turning creatures sideways" more than anything else, and secondly being somewhat warped around planeswalkers. As far as I'm concerned, game development has predominantly suffered from a "creatures matter" mindset, and the only recent exception to that was Innistrad Miracles, where spells actually mattered, but interaction was still minimal.
Back in the rose tinted old days, the color pie basically restricted how sets were designed, and the ideas of each set and mechanic had to start fitting into those niches. They tried to get around those restrictions by weakening everything. Green no longer has as strong of fast mana. Blue no longer has as strong of counterspells, white's 1/2 drops are no longer the most aggressive by a considerable margin, and black doesn't get as good of tutoring.
Instead, they focused on making 1/2/3 drop creatures much better, and instead of making spells better, they started binding spells into creatures to increase their value. So instead of playing spells to combo with spells, we're now flickering creatures that we're using as spells, and creatures are valued by either being pushed in terms of keywords and size, or just on their ETB effects.
Artifacts are all over the place now, making colorless truly a 6th color more than just a collective group of cards every color can use. They tend to have the best fatties, incredible abilities, and equipments have rendered beneficial auras nearly obsolete.
Speaking of enchantments, it is a card type that has been severely watered down. Auras have been pushed more towards negative effects as equipments tend to be much more reliable for benefits, while board effecting abilities have continued to find homes more on creatures and artifacts than on enchantments.
Ultimately, the focus towards new creatures acting more as spells and enchantments while simultaneously trending for weaker removal and control spells have created a game state that tends to be shallow due to it being boiled down to "play creatures, swing when applicable."
People are asking for balance. People are asking for viable options in all colors and all play styles (or at least as many can be offered at one time). People are asking that if youre going to make creatures that much better, that you include the answers to match. Magic shouldnt be a "just turn creatures sideways" game.
One idiom is "ebb and flow", referring to the motion of the tides; "ebb" is the tide going out, and when used metaphorically it means a reduction.
Another idiom is "wax and wane", referring the the transition of the phases of the moon; "wane" is the moon progressing towards the new moon phase, and when used metaphorically it also means reduction.
Standard has suffered due to these changes, specifically of the removal of the core set. This is an indisputable fact. Smash to Smithereens for a time was in standard, yet nothing replaced it, not even a Shatter.
Worse yet, we had weaker cards reprinted in place of others such as Caustic Caterpillar being replaced by Ruinous Gremlin. As somehow having one more power and being more narrow in its destruction is enough to warrant an increase to activation cost.
Apparently WotC needs to be handed a laundry list of mandatory cards they need to reprint every so often in order to make sure their flagship, Standard, doesn't sink. As they very much spaced off and forgot to include quite a few such cards.
This thread saddens me, but it might not be what you think. I'm feeling strong nostalgia, since several of the posts here resonate so much with me, reminding me of the 'good old days' while clearly pointing out how magic changed. Yes, we tend to remember our past better than it really was, but when it comes to magic, I truly remember having more fun in lorwyn or first ravnica standard than I have nowadays, turning toolcraft exemplars and heart of kirans sideways without much thought behind it.
Contrary to what some users like to tell me every now and then, I still think creatures are approaching critical mass. Just check the top 8 of the last vintage championship. Thalia, heretic cathar, walking ballista, eldrazi displacer & friends, even fleetwheel cruiser, all these creatures are currently standard-legal and they are duking it out in vintage. VIN-TAGE! You see where I'm coming from, no? I don't think standard needs to be loaded with counterspell and manaleak, but a syncopate would do nicely, especially since the graveyard has become another huge issue as time went on. I know they acknowledged the creature power, saying they are going to tone it down, but the damage has been done nonetheless.
I just wish magic would return to sets that provide both interesting, as well as some powerful, yet balanced cards at the same time. Spiced up with a vibrant world and a diverse, unique cast of characters instead of 5 power rangers in each and every block. I know I'm repeating myself, but Amonkhet is such a huuge letdown on a personal level for me. "I'd love to see you do better." was what you just said? I'm in no position to do so, I don't work for wizards and they probably wouldn't let me anyway if they read the majority of my posts. not every set can be fantastic of course, but abominations like battle for Zendikar should definitely not exist given the experience of the teams that design for magic. Will I finally quit the game if I just keep on rambling? Of course not, I love Magic and the community way too much. Hopefully, the change wizards spoke of will be evident rather sooner than later.
I'm SO SICK of the "too strong for Standard" argument. It's the new "Dies to removal". We can have a two mana 4/4 with a zillion abilities, but we can't just have Accumulated Knowledge. Makes sense.
The only issue I have is that there is nothing in this set I even want to see experimented with. No fun build arounds, no really interesting mechanics, nothing.
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UW Spirits
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Since they are still selling packs and boxes I would say they are meeting the needs of the part of the player base that is keeping the company in business.
No one is holding a gun to your head to buy the product or play the game. As I mentioned, the game is evolving. This isnt 1999 any more. To some thats terrible, to others thats a godsend. Wotc cant please everyone, and they know it. No matter what Wotc does there is going to be a section of the player base upset.
But in the end, its a business long before its a game. They are going to do what it takes to continue selling packs/boxes to the masses. Which means pushing Limited and Standard.
I could also point out how aelf defeating the argument that declining market shares ahow that the system is working because of raw numbers, or the issue of confidence and brand erosion over time, or even how relying on market share momentum is explicitly a bad strategy when you are deliberately abandoning your long term player base.
What I will say ia that magic cannot compete with hearthstone and pokemon at the same niche as them. It doesn't market at kids, it has core mechanics that cannot be ahoehorned in, and it is not free to play. Losing your entire core and killing your games identity to try will not save you.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
Yes, but not the way you paint it.
The chaff of the past let you build WU Heroic in RTR-THS Standard, Vampire Tribal in ZEN-SOM Standard, Owling Mine in CHK-RAV Standard, UG Madness in ODY-ONS Standard, etc.
Back in the day there was almost always a mid-level deck that wasn't the "absolute top tier all pros play this and it costs a kidney" deck, but could seriously compete with it at 5-round events. Which let players who wanted more than Craw Wurms and Shivan Dragons experience competitive Magic without feeling like they had to sink all their money just to not get crushed.
There hasn't been such a deck since KTK-BFZ. And the current R&D seems to actually be trying to discourage such a deck from existing.
Khan's block had a ton of eternal playable cards, is it any wonder it was a better format?
Spirits
You are talking about a very small segment of the player bases of those formats. Wotc has broken its own sales highs something like 6 or 7 years in a row. So sales figures are highest they have ever been. Attendance numbers are high and LGS are popping up all over the place. The lack of confidence you speak of is from those players stuck in the past and wish for it to stay 1999. Brand erosion? Increased sales for Wotc year after year doesnt sound like erosion, its change.
Hearthstone and Pokemon are not half what Magic is as a game. Personally I think Heartstone is terrible. Pokemon has had its resurgence of late but its taken years to reestablish the game.
Yes Magic has changed, Yes some are upset by it. But as I mentioned above, someone is always upset with change. Wotc knows this and moves forward catering to those that actually invest into the game. Not the older players that maybe buy a play set of a single card every so many sets. If Wotc relied on eternal players to keep the game going, Magic would have been dead years ago.
In short, adapt or go play your Heartstone or Pokemon. The game is changing.
To be frank the majority of complaints are from players who play constructed or buy singles. Draft players barely care about the quality of the sets outside of how boring drafting is, limited players usually don't get hit with the same problems players of standard and modern do thanks to limited card pool, etc. The trouble is that if you don't keep constructed players happy and they start leaving, the value of the cards from the sealed pool drop really rapidly and you end up with packs that are worth more sealed than the singles inside.
So long story short, even if sales figures look high, if they don't cater to singles sellers and buyers it ultimately won't matter how good the sales numbers on sealed product are in the long term.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I disagree. Wotc doesnt need older formats to make the business aspect of the game be profitable. All Wotc needs is Standard and Limited.
Yes some think Standard is bad right now. Some want Standards form the past every season. That is not how it works, that is not how it ever worked. There has always been 'bad' Standard environments. Yet the game has continued to evolve and change.
The telling sign the game is doing well is the number of new LGS that are popping up. That means the pie is big enough to support more LGS and in turn players. If those LGS are making it, that means players are coming out and playing the game. No matter how much the vocal minority complains about the game being bad.
No one is asking for it. People are asking for the current standard format to have the same or similar removal spells baked into it in order to give players good answers versus threats.
This sort of mentality is pure hubris and is not healthy for any game ever.
I really miss the core sets as well. By trying to make me buy more cards I now end up buying less cards.
Yes, you are right that change is not accepted by all and some will always complain, but when that change is clearly not working then instead of people being "upset with change" could it be that people are actually upset by how terrible the change is rather than just the change itself? This change that has people so irked in Magic lately is not a good one and with Standard attendance falling you can't just say that this is people hating change in general.
More are headed to different formats, and one format was even created, because Standard and the new sets just don't do it for many right now. We keep being told that certain cards are too strong for reprint and yet they push the envelope in other areas that show they have no problem creating new "too strong" cards, but for some reason even basic average cards are too much right now. We're told they are catering to what people want and yet it seems far more of a majority don't want things this way, but if these were what people wanted then why would Standard be in such a rough place right now? Why would they have needed to throw all of these rewards at us lately if everything were going the way things should, especially since they tried so hard at taking away rewards. Why give rewards back if they are not needed?
This is more than just people hating the constant change of the game, there is clearly something that isn't sitting right with many and even WotC has noticed it with trying to get on the good side of players in various ways. With extra rewards, bannings, and even admitting that the game has changed too much in the wrong ways, which is why we are to expect better answers. Which ergo would bring us closer to that past you say some players are stuck in.
Looks like you beat me to the punch, but I'll add in also that there are numerous failed games that all demonstrate you can't have a strong sealed game without having some sense of value from the product inside. RIP Legend of the Five Rings, Digimon, Dragonball Z, Tomb Raider, Nightmare before Christmas, etc. If the game no longer has any kind of retainable value in the singles the game is basically hosed.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
First let me say this is true.
Second, I didn't know that there was a Nightmare Before Christmas card game.
Third, I'll add other card games like World of Warcraft, Neopets, Hecatomb (one of the weirdest card games I've seen in ages), and Duelmasters (in America at least) to which then turned into Kaijudo (which was a far worse version).
Again, asking to put old cards in the new Standard is asking for old metas. Standard ebbs and wanes. Always has. If you have not seen it, then you havent been playing very long.
Yet complaining every time a set or format doesnt appease a certain group its fine to bash the game and the format. Pot meet kettle..
The guy who complains constantly Modern is too expensive makes the statement the cards need to be worth value to survive as a card game? Hypocrite much?
The only mistakes Wotc has made in recent years is to create Modern and keep supporting Legacy.
Modern jumped Limited as the #2 format and money put toward Legacy is just flushing money down the toilet from a business stand point. Let the bigger LGS worry about the older formats and concentrate on Standard and Limited. Wotc cant force people to play a format, but they can make it advantageous to.
Wotc told the player base years ago about the changes coming. No 4cmc unconditional sweepers, no 2cmc unconditional counters, removal moving up in rarity, to name a few.
Trying to add something to that, we can easily see that since M10, the game has been oriented strongly towards "turning creatures sideways" more than anything else, and secondly being somewhat warped around planeswalkers. As far as I'm concerned, game development has predominantly suffered from a "creatures matter" mindset, and the only recent exception to that was Innistrad Miracles, where spells actually mattered, but interaction was still minimal.
Back in the rose tinted old days, the color pie basically restricted how sets were designed, and the ideas of each set and mechanic had to start fitting into those niches. They tried to get around those restrictions by weakening everything. Green no longer has as strong of fast mana. Blue no longer has as strong of counterspells, white's 1/2 drops are no longer the most aggressive by a considerable margin, and black doesn't get as good of tutoring.
Instead, they focused on making 1/2/3 drop creatures much better, and instead of making spells better, they started binding spells into creatures to increase their value. So instead of playing spells to combo with spells, we're now flickering creatures that we're using as spells, and creatures are valued by either being pushed in terms of keywords and size, or just on their ETB effects.
Artifacts are all over the place now, making colorless truly a 6th color more than just a collective group of cards every color can use. They tend to have the best fatties, incredible abilities, and equipments have rendered beneficial auras nearly obsolete.
Speaking of enchantments, it is a card type that has been severely watered down. Auras have been pushed more towards negative effects as equipments tend to be much more reliable for benefits, while board effecting abilities have continued to find homes more on creatures and artifacts than on enchantments.
Ultimately, the focus towards new creatures acting more as spells and enchantments while simultaneously trending for weaker removal and control spells have created a game state that tends to be shallow due to it being boiled down to "play creatures, swing when applicable."
You say "WotC could survive on just standard and limited" but when faced with the criticism that the current standard and limited format lacks quality answers for a healthy format, that even WotC admits this was an error on their part due to lack of a core set, you retort with "Pot meet kettle"? Whats next? "I am rubber and you are glue"?
From what I gather everyone just wants to reprint old OP blue cards for all the blue mages who are butthurt? Or even new, even more op counters with added draw or something? O guess people aren't as excited about as fortold or censor even.
Look, it's easy to push creatures without breaking EVERYTHING. Sure you end up headed toward midrange land, but it's better than warping every format to require you to rub blue (cough treasure cruise and dig through time)
Talk about your mixed metaphor.
One idiom is "ebb and flow", referring to the motion of the tides; "ebb" is the tide going out, and when used metaphorically it means a reduction.
Another idiom is "wax and wane", referring the the transition of the phases of the moon; "wane" is the moon progressing towards the new moon phase, and when used metaphorically it also means reduction.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Standard has suffered due to these changes, specifically of the removal of the core set. This is an indisputable fact. Smash to Smithereens for a time was in standard, yet nothing replaced it, not even a Shatter.
Worse yet, we had weaker cards reprinted in place of others such as Caustic Caterpillar being replaced by Ruinous Gremlin. As somehow having one more power and being more narrow in its destruction is enough to warrant an increase to activation cost.
Apparently WotC needs to be handed a laundry list of mandatory cards they need to reprint every so often in order to make sure their flagship, Standard, doesn't sink. As they very much spaced off and forgot to include quite a few such cards.
Contrary to what some users like to tell me every now and then, I still think creatures are approaching critical mass. Just check the top 8 of the last vintage championship. Thalia, heretic cathar, walking ballista, eldrazi displacer & friends, even fleetwheel cruiser, all these creatures are currently standard-legal and they are duking it out in vintage. VIN-TAGE! You see where I'm coming from, no? I don't think standard needs to be loaded with counterspell and manaleak, but a syncopate would do nicely, especially since the graveyard has become another huge issue as time went on. I know they acknowledged the creature power, saying they are going to tone it down, but the damage has been done nonetheless.
I just wish magic would return to sets that provide both interesting, as well as some powerful, yet balanced cards at the same time. Spiced up with a vibrant world and a diverse, unique cast of characters instead of 5 power rangers in each and every block. I know I'm repeating myself, but Amonkhet is such a huuge letdown on a personal level for me. "I'd love to see you do better." was what you just said? I'm in no position to do so, I don't work for wizards and they probably wouldn't let me anyway if they read the majority of my posts. not every set can be fantastic of course, but abominations like battle for Zendikar should definitely not exist given the experience of the teams that design for magic. Will I finally quit the game if I just keep on rambling? Of course not, I love Magic and the community way too much. Hopefully, the change wizards spoke of will be evident rather sooner than later.
Spirits