To be fair, the first modern masters set had a lower msrp. but the vendors shoot the price up, and people complaint at least if they had been more expensive wizards would have made that money instead of vendors not selling to their customers.
And thats what they did.
But if Wizards just put it at the same price and availability as a regular expansion, it would likely be a net positive for business and for Modern as a format... It's artificially pretending to cater to collectors in a silly manner.
No its not. i am no collector, but player only, but i like my cards to have (and keep) some value. Otherwise, why should i spend so much money on cards?
1: You wouldn't have to spend so much money on cards if they were reprinted with an eye towards actually making them affordable.
2: Because you can buy the cards once and get infinite replay value out of them
3: Because you want a specific card for a deck, so you buy it as a (cheap) single.
4: If you insist on spending a lot of money, you can always buy the Masterpiece/Foil/Judge promo/SDCC version, whatever, and have an expensive card. Meanwhile, others can still have a cheap version to play.
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
well, but i already spent that much money. I actually think what wizards is doing is the best way. Tarmogoyf got reprinted and will get reprinted, and (beside the first) each reprint brings his price down a little. Other cards too. You don´t have to crash the prices of cards all in one go. Meanwhile, cards hold a large percentage of their value, and people can trade them away if they want to.
also, reprint doesnt help if the prices for inprint cards are just as high sometimes. I just read in this forum the other day that the prices for kitchen finks and path to exile is still to high. Even if i agree, when should they start to reprint fatal push, which has about the same pricetag, is also an uncommon and currently inprint?
Why is that pricetag ok for a recent card, but not for cards that are 10years old?
The problem is this:
Bob starts playing MtG May 1, 2017. If Bob wants to play Modern, he will find that the format is infested with $50-100 cards. It sucks to be Bob.
I believe it's a combination of two things easily correctable. One is planeswalkersby themselves snowball and not easy to remove. --> good against control.
The other is removal is much weaker than creatures. So I feel when removal improves up to the level of creatures control will exist again.
Planeswalkers will exist and still be a challenge to remove. I believe they are a net boon to aggressive-anti control strategies. They should be hard to remove as they are iconic. They do help control snowball as well but inherently make creature based aggro strategies a solution.
What I would propose is removal swings on line with power of creatures.
The issue with planeswalkers however is they are 1) easier to protect with control 2) easier to snowball with control 3) easier to draw with a control strategy
What I would propose which wizards has not yet announced (they announced increasing power level of creature removal) is increasing the probability to draw planeswalkers for aggressive strategies above control.
Example:
When this creature comes into play you may search and put this planeswalker type on top of your library.
When this creature comes into play you may reveal the top five cards of your deck and put a planeswalker into your hand. Put the remaining revealed cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.
Really I think creature tutors for planeswalkers are the way for aggressive strategies to be on line with control. When control has removal to keep aggressive strategies at bay.
Furthermore with Planeswalkers being iconic, this will allow the timmy/big creature player to draw and play their new iconic, flashy Nissa/Gideon/Jace more often.
well, but i already spent that much money. I actually think what wizards is doing is the best way. Tarmogoyf got reprinted and will get reprinted, and (beside the first) each reprint brings his price down a little. Other cards too. You don´t have to crash the prices of cards all in one go. Meanwhile, cards hold a large percentage of their value, and people can trade them away if they want to.
also, reprint doesnt help if the prices for inprint cards are just as high sometimes. I just read in this forum the other day that the prices for kitchen finks and path to exile is still to high. Even if i agree, when should they start to reprint fatal push, which has about the same pricetag, is also an uncommon and currently inprint?
Why is that pricetag ok for a recent card, but not for cards that are 10years old?
The problem is this:
Bob starts playing MtG May 1, 2017. If Bob wants to play Modern, he will find that the format is infested with $50-100 cards. It sucks to be Bob.
This. The format itself is fine and people can debate what they personally want the format to be or how to improve the format. It's just the pay wall is so high on cards a player can't avoid that the format becomes impossible to play.
Basically, it's Kahns of tarkir standard, except amplified by a significant magnitude and without a rotation to escape it. (on the upside, at least modern gives you multiple deck options, even if a bunch of them are aggro. Just don't play lantern control if you value having friends and healthy relationships )
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yet, why is Bob fine with paying the price for fatal push but not with the price of path to exile?
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
well, but i already spent that much money. I actually think what wizards is doing is the best way. Tarmogoyf got reprinted and will get reprinted, and (beside the first) each reprint brings his price down a little. Other cards too. You don´t have to crash the prices of cards all in one go. Meanwhile, cards hold a large percentage of their value, and people can trade them away if they want to.
also, reprint doesnt help if the prices for inprint cards are just as high sometimes. I just read in this forum the other day that the prices for kitchen finks and path to exile is still to high. Even if i agree, when should they start to reprint fatal push, which has about the same pricetag, is also an uncommon and currently inprint?
Why is that pricetag ok for a recent card, but not for cards that are 10years old?
The problem is this:
Bob starts playing MtG May 1, 2017. If Bob wants to play Modern, he will find that the format is infested with $50-100 cards. It sucks to be Bob.
This. The format itself is fine and people can debate what they personally want the format to be or how to improve the format. It's just the pay wall is so high on cards a player can't avoid that the format becomes impossible to play.
Not so much impossible as opposed to miserable, IMO.
I believe it's a combination of two things easily correctable. One is planeswalkersby themselves snowball and not easy to remove. --> good against control.
The other is removal is much weaker than creatures. So I feel when removal improves up to the level of creatures control will exist again.
Planeswalkers will exist and still be a challenge to remove. I believe they are a net boon to aggressive-anti control strategies. They should be hard to remove as they are iconic. They do help control snowball as well but inherently make creature based aggro strategies a solution.
What I would propose is removal swings on line with power of creatures.
The issue with planeswalkers however is they are 1) easier to protect with control 2) easier to snowball with control 3) easier to draw with a control strategy
What I would propose which wizards has not yet announced (they announced increasing power level of creature removal) is increasing the probability to draw planeswalkers for aggressive strategies above control.
Example:
When this creature comes into play you may search and put this planeswalker type on top of your library.
When this creature comes into play you may reveal the top five cards of your deck and put a planeswalker into your hand. Put the remaining revealed cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.
Really I think creature tutors for planeswalkers are the way for aggressive strategies to be on line with control. When control has removal to keep aggressive strategies at bay.
Furthermore with Planeswalkers being iconic, this will allow the timmy/big creature player to draw and play their new iconic, flashy Nissa/Gideon/Jace more often.
Are we playing different games? As far as I'm aware, traditional draw-go control is pretty much dead in every big format, and midrange or tempo has taken over it's role. Aggressive strategies don't need help, wizards has been pushing them for years. Control is what needs help to compete with on-cast, undercosted creatures, with way too much value per card.
It's not a matter of that plainswakers are "easier to draw" It's that control decks see more cards in a game. And further, plainswalkers are 1 card engines, it just makes more sense for value midrange and control decks to play them. An aggro deck doesn't want to tap out on t5 for some value machine, it wants to just kill you there. Walkers are just better in midrange and control decks that draw the game out and hope to win over the long haul, as any single walker will generate value for free. Gee, I wonder why this deck that that aims to win on t9+ is more likely to play 6 mana walkers.
It's a matter of deck construction, aggro doesn't generally play walkers as a result of that, unless it's a walker that can win the game fast, like gideon, 4 mana elspeth, and a couple otherwise.
Your proposed walker tutor is also the kind of card that would see play in midrange and control, and not aggro. How much do you think that tutor effect is worth? I would bet that wizards would value it at 2 or 3 mana. Even if you have a 1/1/ or 2/2 body, that's still a 3/4 value drop. Not really where a deck that wants to win on t4-t5 wants to be.
I mean, i'm leery of 1-card engines in general, and most of those are pretty easy to deal with or remove. Walkers are exactly that, and really hard to deal with, so in my mind, I think they need to be treated with far more caution than wizards has been doing.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
Quote from thecasualoblivion »
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
Quote from thecasualoblivion »
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
Can't get store credit if you can't win though. And if you're playing a deck with a sub-50% winrate, like most budget decks, you aren't going to be breaking even. And this might be a personal experience thing, but most of the stores around me that offer store credit are quite heavy slanted toward top heavy payouts.
At least where I play, entry is 6 dollars, and payouts go to a 3-1 or better finish. 3-0 gets 12, 4-0 gets 24. In that sort of setup you need to maintain a pretty high winrate over time, and that naturally slants the payouts toward people with the strictly best version of the deck or cards.
Even if you are a fantastic player, there are going to be cases where you just lose games because your LOTV has been replaced with a necrogen mists, or you can't afford a 2 mana 4/5.
I would actually argue that strong cards are even more important when players are skilled.
And no you don't "need" LoTV, Goyf, Blood moon and the other top 10 most played cards in the format to play modern. If you want to win consistently, which is the most important part of grinding out store credit, you absolutely do. Take any budget deck you can throw together, and then run it though the modern gauntlet, with 10 or so games with every tier 1 or 2 deck. I've done this multiple times with my friends brews.Unless you managed to break the format wide open, which does happen, that deck is going to have a horrendous aggregate winrate, and might not even be high enough to break even on entry fees. It's just a numbers game.
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
Quote from thecasualoblivion »
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
Somebody said competing without those cards was impossible, I interjected that attempting to compete without those cards is miserable. You say competing without those cards is possible, but that doesn't make it any less miserable. You will be facing $50-100 cards playing modern, you are at a disadvantage if your deck lacks them, and it isn't a good feeling being in that position. Playing on a budget is playing with a significant handicap, you can't deny that.
That being said, what makes today different from the Magic of yesterday is that Modern is currently the most popular format, and arguably the most fun competitive format. In the past Standard was the most popular format, and Standard often was the most interesting. That is why people complain more, and IMO have more reason to complain. A new player trying to compete in Standard has never faced the issues a new player trying to break into Modern faces.
You need the best tools (cards) to win consistently, otherwise the better and richer players would not be buying and playing those cards exclusively. Seems pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
There are only two groups of people that don't care about the high prices of magic cards: Those that flip/sell them for a financial profit, and those players who can afford them straight out of the box when they want to put together a deck. The latter crowd loves the high prices of cards b/c they know it prices out most of their competition.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Yet, why is Bob fine with paying the price for fatal push but not with the price of path to exile?
Someone else already answered this, but to elaborate: it comes down to people like to complain and the VIP club problem. The price on path and fatal push are probably a little high as reds own staple removal/burn spell lightning bolt is cheaper. That's about it. Plus with spells like that you sometimes need more than a single playset.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yet, why is Bob fine with paying the price for fatal push but not with the price of path to exile?
Someone else already answered this, but to elaborate: it comes down to people like to complain and the VIP club problem. The price on path and fatal push are probably a little high as reds own staple removal/burn spell lightning bolt is cheaper. That's about it. Plus with spells like that you sometimes need more than a single playset.
Path isn't the problem. Fatal Push and Path to Exile might be similar prices, but what about the rest of the deck around them? One single card isn't the issue, it's the aggregate prices of deck that's really putting up that pay wall.
As for not needing the best cards, well, there are streamers and YouTubers who like to brew and then post their results. Budget builds tend to get wrecked, plain and simple. Every once in a while, you see someone with a lucky run, but overall, attempting to brew or run budget options instead of a proven deck with the demonstrably best cards in the format, is just not competitive. The worst part is, at least some of these "budget" decks would work much, much better with the additions of these cards that aren't "needed."
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
I don't feel anything is wrong. Still have fun getting together with friends who play Modern, and we enjoy playing and testing decks against each other. There's a store, 30 minutes away from my house that do FNM. We don't play Standard.
As for the price.. well, this is a hobby so we just save up money to buy the cards.
A lot of what we're talking about here are symptoms, not the disease. Going back to the title of this thread, what is wrong with today's Magic, the core problem IMO is that Modern has become more popular than Standard. All issues I see with the game right now can be traced back to that. Modern is expensive, yes, but that wouldn't be as big of an issue if Standard were still the premier format. Older formats were always more expensive than Standard, but never as popular. Standard has sucked as of late, but it's gone through bad patches in the past, Standard having a bad run for a time isn't new. Standard being in Modern's shadow to the extent it is now I believe is fairly new.
I think this is bad for the game because the barrier to transition from newbie to Modern is higher than the bar to transition from newbie to Standard.
I don't know that this can be fixed, short of destroying Modern.
Yet, why is Bob fine with paying the price for fatal push but not with the price of path to exile?
Someone else already answered this, but to elaborate: it comes down to people like to complain and the VIP club problem. The price on path and fatal push are probably a little high as reds own staple removal/burn spell lightning bolt is cheaper. That's about it. Plus with spells like that you sometimes need more than a single playset.
Path isn't the problem. Fatal Push and Path to Exile might be similar prices, but what about the rest of the deck around them? One single card isn't the issue, it's the aggregate prices of deck that's really putting up that pay wall.
As for not needing the best cards, well, there are streamers and YouTubers who like to brew and then post their results. Budget builds tend to get wrecked, plain and simple. Every once in a while, you see someone with a lucky run, but overall, attempting to brew or run budget options instead of a proven deck with the demonstrably best cards in the format, is just not competitive. The worst part is, at least some of these "budget" decks would work much, much better with the additions of these cards that aren't "needed."
Oh yeah, I agree the total cost is pretty overpriced on a lot of decks. In fact, that VIP club problem I was mentioning involves how those in the club won't have the same perspective as those who are outside the club, which leads to arguments on the forums cropping up that shouldn't even happen. One of those being this entire pricing debacle.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A lot of what we're talking about here are symptoms, not the disease. Going back to the title of this thread, what is wrong with today's Magic, the core problem IMO is that Modern has become more popular than Standard. All issues I see with the game right now can be traced back to that. Modern is expensive, yes, but that wouldn't be as big of an issue if Standard were still the premier format. Older formats were always more expensive than Standard, but never as popular. Standard has sucked as of late, but it's gone through bad patches in the past, Standard having a bad run for a time isn't new. Standard being in Modern's shadow to the extent it is now I believe is fairly new.
I think this is bad for the game because the barrier to transition from newbie to Modern is higher than the bar to transition from newbie to Standard.
I don't know that this can be fixed, short of destroying Modern.
They can fix it easily by powering up Standard again and making it more in line w/ Modern.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I believe it's a combination of two things easily correctable. One is planeswalkersby themselves snowball and not easy to remove. --> good against control.
The other is removal is much weaker than creatures. So I feel when removal improves up to the level of creatures control will exist again.
Planeswalkers will exist and still be a challenge to remove. I believe they are a net boon to aggressive-anti control strategies. They should be hard to remove as they are iconic. They do help control snowball as well but inherently make creature based aggro strategies a solution.
What I would propose is removal swings on line with power of creatures.
The issue with planeswalkers however is they are 1) easier to protect with control 2) easier to snowball with control 3) easier to draw with a control strategy
What I would propose which wizards has not yet announced (they announced increasing power level of creature removal) is increasing the probability to draw planeswalkers for aggressive strategies above control.
Example:
When this creature comes into play you may search and put this planeswalker type on top of your library.
When this creature comes into play you may reveal the top five cards of your deck and put a planeswalker into your hand. Put the remaining revealed cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.
Really I think creature tutors for planeswalkers are the way for aggressive strategies to be on line with control. When control has removal to keep aggressive strategies at bay.
Furthermore with Planeswalkers being iconic, this will allow the timmy/big creature player to draw and play their new iconic, flashy Nissa/Gideon/Jace more often.
Yet, why is Bob fine with paying the price for fatal push but not with the price of path to exile?
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
Since I didn't see anyone else point this out, Blood Moon is a sub-$20 card now, from around $35. Aside from Liliana of the Veil and Snapcaster Mage, every other money card in the set has dropped significantly in price. If price is an issue, sets like MM17 help since they bring down singles, regardless of the price of the boosters.
Somebody said competing without those cards was impossible, I interjected that attempting to compete without those cards is miserable.
Quote from Lilijuana »
You need the best tools (cards) to win consistently, otherwise the better and richer players would not be buying and playing those cards exclusively. Seems pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
So wrong. They may be the most played cards, but they are not needed to cash out events. Knowing the meta will get you in the money.
Goyf is played in 3 decks?, Jund and Azban being the only 2 that can be considered top tier (I am considering DS as a variation of Jund). Moon in 2? maybe 3. Its played in the side of some Affinity decks but other then that in zero top tier decks. LotV is played in 2 and one isnt even T1. Tarn is played in 1 or 2 decks and neither are T1 decks. So continue to tell me how important those 4 cards are. They are not needed to be competitive. They are not needed to be in the money at any event.
The mentality you 'needed' certain cards to be competitive is another problem with the game. The art of brewing and knowing your meta is lost to the majority of the player base. There was a time in all formats if you knew your meta, you could brew to beat a good portion of that said meta and money. But people would rather let others do the testing and such and try and copy results of others.
There are only two groups of people that don't care about the high prices of magic cards: Those that flip/sell them for a financial profit, and those players who can afford them straight out of the box when they want to put together a deck. The latter crowd loves the high prices of cards b/c they know it prices out most of their competition.
Really? How many times have you been to a LGS and seen kids buying packs to rip profit? I see it every time I am at a LGS. Without that value in the packs/sets, sales drops considerably.
People who compete in a competitive hobby that has parts such as Magic does, want their parts to retain some value. I dont care if you are talking about a card game, RC racing, BMX racing, or any other hobby.
The
Today, when I read MaRo's column wherein he once again stated that Desert--yes, Desert--is too strong for standard (he used "harsh and unforgiving" this time)
But if Wizards just put it at the same price and availability as a regular expansion, it would likely be a net positive for business and for Modern as a format... It's artificially pretending to cater to collectors in a silly manner.
1: You wouldn't have to spend so much money on cards if they were reprinted with an eye towards actually making them affordable.
2: Because you can buy the cards once and get infinite replay value out of them
3: Because you want a specific card for a deck, so you buy it as a (cheap) single.
4: If you insist on spending a lot of money, you can always buy the Masterpiece/Foil/Judge promo/SDCC version, whatever, and have an expensive card. Meanwhile, others can still have a cheap version to play.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
The problem is this:
Bob starts playing MtG May 1, 2017. If Bob wants to play Modern, he will find that the format is infested with $50-100 cards. It sucks to be Bob.
The other is removal is much weaker than creatures. So I feel when removal improves up to the level of creatures control will exist again.
Planeswalkers will exist and still be a challenge to remove. I believe they are a net boon to aggressive-anti control strategies. They should be hard to remove as they are iconic. They do help control snowball as well but inherently make creature based aggro strategies a solution.
What I would propose is removal swings on line with power of creatures.
The issue with planeswalkers however is they are 1) easier to protect with control 2) easier to snowball with control 3) easier to draw with a control strategy
What I would propose which wizards has not yet announced (they announced increasing power level of creature removal) is increasing the probability to draw planeswalkers for aggressive strategies above control.
Example:
When this creature comes into play you may search and put this planeswalker type on top of your library.
When this creature comes into play you may reveal the top five cards of your deck and put a planeswalker into your hand. Put the remaining revealed cards on the bottom of your deck in any order.
Really I think creature tutors for planeswalkers are the way for aggressive strategies to be on line with control. When control has removal to keep aggressive strategies at bay.
Furthermore with Planeswalkers being iconic, this will allow the timmy/big creature player to draw and play their new iconic, flashy Nissa/Gideon/Jace more often.
This. The format itself is fine and people can debate what they personally want the format to be or how to improve the format. It's just the pay wall is so high on cards a player can't avoid that the format becomes impossible to play.
Basically, it's Kahns of tarkir standard, except amplified by a significant magnitude and without a rotation to escape it. (on the upside, at least modern gives you multiple deck options, even if a bunch of them are aggro. Just don't play lantern control if you value having friends and healthy relationships )
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
Not so much impossible as opposed to miserable, IMO.
Are we playing different games? As far as I'm aware, traditional draw-go control is pretty much dead in every big format, and midrange or tempo has taken over it's role. Aggressive strategies don't need help, wizards has been pushing them for years. Control is what needs help to compete with on-cast, undercosted creatures, with way too much value per card.
It's not a matter of that plainswakers are "easier to draw" It's that control decks see more cards in a game. And further, plainswalkers are 1 card engines, it just makes more sense for value midrange and control decks to play them. An aggro deck doesn't want to tap out on t5 for some value machine, it wants to just kill you there. Walkers are just better in midrange and control decks that draw the game out and hope to win over the long haul, as any single walker will generate value for free. Gee, I wonder why this deck that that aims to win on t9+ is more likely to play 6 mana walkers.
It's a matter of deck construction, aggro doesn't generally play walkers as a result of that, unless it's a walker that can win the game fast, like gideon, 4 mana elspeth, and a couple otherwise.
Your proposed walker tutor is also the kind of card that would see play in midrange and control, and not aggro. How much do you think that tutor effect is worth? I would bet that wizards would value it at 2 or 3 mana. Even if you have a 1/1/ or 2/2 body, that's still a 3/4 value drop. Not really where a deck that wants to win on t4-t5 wants to be.
I mean, i'm leery of 1-card engines in general, and most of those are pretty easy to deal with or remove. Walkers are exactly that, and really hard to deal with, so in my mind, I think they need to be treated with far more caution than wizards has been doing.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
Can't get store credit if you can't win though. And if you're playing a deck with a sub-50% winrate, like most budget decks, you aren't going to be breaking even. And this might be a personal experience thing, but most of the stores around me that offer store credit are quite heavy slanted toward top heavy payouts.
At least where I play, entry is 6 dollars, and payouts go to a 3-1 or better finish. 3-0 gets 12, 4-0 gets 24. In that sort of setup you need to maintain a pretty high winrate over time, and that naturally slants the payouts toward people with the strictly best version of the deck or cards.
Even if you are a fantastic player, there are going to be cases where you just lose games because your LOTV has been replaced with a necrogen mists, or you can't afford a 2 mana 4/5.
I would actually argue that strong cards are even more important when players are skilled.
And no you don't "need" LoTV, Goyf, Blood moon and the other top 10 most played cards in the format to play modern. If you want to win consistently, which is the most important part of grinding out store credit, you absolutely do. Take any budget deck you can throw together, and then run it though the modern gauntlet, with 10 or so games with every tier 1 or 2 deck. I've done this multiple times with my friends brews.Unless you managed to break the format wide open, which does happen, that deck is going to have a horrendous aggregate winrate, and might not even be high enough to break even on entry fees. It's just a numbers game.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Somebody said competing without those cards was impossible, I interjected that attempting to compete without those cards is miserable. You say competing without those cards is possible, but that doesn't make it any less miserable. You will be facing $50-100 cards playing modern, you are at a disadvantage if your deck lacks them, and it isn't a good feeling being in that position. Playing on a budget is playing with a significant handicap, you can't deny that.
That being said, what makes today different from the Magic of yesterday is that Modern is currently the most popular format, and arguably the most fun competitive format. In the past Standard was the most popular format, and Standard often was the most interesting. That is why people complain more, and IMO have more reason to complain. A new player trying to compete in Standard has never faced the issues a new player trying to break into Modern faces.
There are only two groups of people that don't care about the high prices of magic cards: Those that flip/sell them for a financial profit, and those players who can afford them straight out of the box when they want to put together a deck. The latter crowd loves the high prices of cards b/c they know it prices out most of their competition.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Someone else already answered this, but to elaborate: it comes down to people like to complain and the VIP club problem. The price on path and fatal push are probably a little high as reds own staple removal/burn spell lightning bolt is cheaper. That's about it. Plus with spells like that you sometimes need more than a single playset.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Path isn't the problem. Fatal Push and Path to Exile might be similar prices, but what about the rest of the deck around them? One single card isn't the issue, it's the aggregate prices of deck that's really putting up that pay wall.
As for not needing the best cards, well, there are streamers and YouTubers who like to brew and then post their results. Budget builds tend to get wrecked, plain and simple. Every once in a while, you see someone with a lucky run, but overall, attempting to brew or run budget options instead of a proven deck with the demonstrably best cards in the format, is just not competitive. The worst part is, at least some of these "budget" decks would work much, much better with the additions of these cards that aren't "needed."
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 2 decades later.
"Entitled:" the entire ad hominem fallacy condensed into a single word. It doesn't strengthen your argument to attack motivations, it just makes you look like you don't understand the argument.
As for the price.. well, this is a hobby so we just save up money to buy the cards.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I think this is bad for the game because the barrier to transition from newbie to Modern is higher than the bar to transition from newbie to Standard.
I don't know that this can be fixed, short of destroying Modern.
Oh yeah, I agree the total cost is pretty overpriced on a lot of decks. In fact, that VIP club problem I was mentioning involves how those in the club won't have the same perspective as those who are outside the club, which leads to arguments on the forums cropping up that shouldn't even happen. One of those being this entire pricing debacle.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
They can fix it easily by powering up Standard again and making it more in line w/ Modern.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
Uhhhhhh
control is doing terribly in every format.
Midrange plays plainswalkers
one of controls worst problems in modern it LOtV
a resolved LOtV spells doom for a control deck.
Why do you want to make control even worse?
if anything control needs to be better.
It's not even limited to Phil Foglio's style. The likes of Goblin War Buggy, Ekundu Cyclops, Goblin Soothsayer, Circle of Protection: Blue, and more are all just as goofy.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
The desert always wins.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
Since I didn't see anyone else point this out, Blood Moon is a sub-$20 card now, from around $35. Aside from Liliana of the Veil and Snapcaster Mage, every other money card in the set has dropped significantly in price. If price is an issue, sets like MM17 help since they bring down singles, regardless of the price of the boosters.
So wrong. They may be the most played cards, but they are not needed to cash out events. Knowing the meta will get you in the money.
Goyf is played in 3 decks?, Jund and Azban being the only 2 that can be considered top tier (I am considering DS as a variation of Jund). Moon in 2? maybe 3. Its played in the side of some Affinity decks but other then that in zero top tier decks. LotV is played in 2 and one isnt even T1. Tarn is played in 1 or 2 decks and neither are T1 decks. So continue to tell me how important those 4 cards are. They are not needed to be competitive. They are not needed to be in the money at any event.
The mentality you 'needed' certain cards to be competitive is another problem with the game. The art of brewing and knowing your meta is lost to the majority of the player base. There was a time in all formats if you knew your meta, you could brew to beat a good portion of that said meta and money. But people would rather let others do the testing and such and try and copy results of others.
Really? How many times have you been to a LGS and seen kids buying packs to rip profit? I see it every time I am at a LGS. Without that value in the packs/sets, sales drops considerably.
People who compete in a competitive hobby that has parts such as Magic does, want their parts to retain some value. I dont care if you are talking about a card game, RC racing, BMX racing, or any other hobby.
Who suggested doing that?
He said desert was too powerful for standard?????
what?????
Why??????????????????????
can I see a link?