I'm starting to think that pauper is the best example of what wizards thinks that new players would consider unfun. It's a format where the answers are much stronger than the threats, minus a few absurd aggro/combo decks, so it naturally becomes this game of attrition and small advantages. It might be my gaming background speaking, but aren't those kinds of decision dense games just more engaging for the player? I wouldn't want to play a fighting game, where my decisions are limited to just blocking high or low instead of factoring in spacing, zoning, and all sorts of other factors.
I mean, I've introduced a bunch of people to magic with my pauper gauntlet, and when those people went on to play standard, quite a few of them were wondering where all the strong spells were. I do get that card advantage is much more of a nebulous concept, and harder to keep track of than big dudes on the board, but do "new players" really just prefer a game that has all of the interaction jammed into combat? I find that hard to believe based on my personal experience.
Also, would it really kill wizards to have some sort of free decent tutorial/glossary/demo that introduces basic to advanced concepts? A digital would be perfect for this sort of thing, and to use the fighting game comparison again, most of the current fighters have pretty good tutorials, and that includes advanced stuff. If they don't want to pay for it, i'm sure the community would be really easy to exploit, just like judges are.I guess wizards is just stuck in the mid/late 90's or something based on MODO.
Also, I'm pretty sure that MTG has or will very soon reach market saturation, and a lot of this is Hasbro pressure to keep up the insane growth rates.
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Legacy
Death and Taxes Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
I'm not sure which group is the originator of this, whether it was Konami, WoTC, or another company, but yeah the entire problem of pushing the power of rares and mythics and pushing down the power of commons and uncommons was less of a decision for draft and more of a market choice to push packs.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The lack in sales baffles me because I dont know of a LGS owner in my area complaining of lack of sales. All of them say they are right on track or above with the new sets. These are friends I have made over 20 some years of playing the game. They are straight with me. They tell me when sales are down, when they dont think a format will catch on, what new card game is putting pressure on Magic. So its not some Joe Blow walking into a store hes never been in and asking those questions.
ICv2, which puts out an Internal Correspondence report based on interviews with suppliers and stores, reported that a lot of people were saying that sales for Magic were down. I talked to a store owner I knew and he confirmed that sales were down in 2016 compared to 2015.
The Internal Correspondence did speculate that while revenue for sindividual tores and suppliers might be down, it might not have decreased overall due to there being more places to buy. But Hasbro's Investor Relations Remarks seems to disprove that, as it admits Magic: the Gathering revenues declined, giving the confusing excuse of it being due to the impact of "the timing of new story-lead releases."
It does seem that sales, indeed, have declined for Magic.
The lack in sales baffles me because I dont know of a LGS owner in my area complaining of lack of sales. All of them say they are right on track or above with the new sets. These are friends I have made over 20 some years of playing the game. They are straight with me. They tell me when sales are down, when they dont think a format will catch on, what new card game is putting pressure on Magic. So its not some Joe Blow walking into a store hes never been in and asking those questions.
ICv2, which puts out an Internal Correspondence report based on interviews with suppliers and stores, reported that a lot of people were saying that sales for Magic were down. I talked to a store owner I knew and he confirmed that sales were down in 2016 compared to 2015.
The Internal Correspondence did speculate that while revenue for sindividual tores and suppliers might be down, it might not have decreased overall due to there being more places to buy. But Hasbro's Investor Relations Remarks seems to disprove that, as it admits Magic: the Gathering revenues declined, giving the confusing excuse of it being due to the impact of "the timing of new story-lead releases."
It does seem that sales, indeed, have declined for Magic.
Yeah I frequent 3 main LGS in my area but we have about 20 LGS with in an hour or so. Of those 3 LGS, 1 said they are about equal to last years sales. They are the oldest and most established LGS, so they have a pretty loyal following. Another LGS that has been open only 4 years found sales had gone up each year or Magic. The 3rd LGS said they show a slight down turn in sales of Magic. The 3rd LGS caters to a more casual crowd. Heavy in EDH and Frontier. The only reason I stop in this store is because its like 5 minutes from the house. It was opened by a long time player in the area that I have known for 10+ years.
Sad to see over all sales are down. But I would assume the business has cycles and we are just in a down side.
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
The game has to cater to all kinds. I personally would rather rip a bomb in limited and know I have a chance to cash out. Then know I never got the bomb and know my chances are rather slim to cash out. Granted, Wotc has gotten better about the power of the bombs for limited reasons. Very few cards in todays Magic are, slam it on the table and you win. In other words, unbeatable cards.
Now if you want to talk constructed, I agree to an extent.
I would be very surprised if a significant percentage of Magic players would be upset with powerful commons and uncommons. One of the appeals of a large number of Magic sets over time has been exactly that; most cards in a set should matter in some way, shape, or form. And especially in a newer age of design, where we have such a huge focus on higher-end cards, it begs the question why there is not more of a push towards more interesting commons and uncommons. It seems almost like New World Order has been taken to its logical extreme, of bland commons, somewhat interesting uncommons, slightly more interesting rares, and over-designed mythics, with a reluctant push towards reprinting older staples at a bare minimum so that the eternal market keeps going as long as WotC can hold it together.
To be honest, that just happened in Amonkhet. There are a few uncommons that made me go "Holy what now?" like Bloodrage Brawler and Trial of Solidarity to name but to. They seem way too powerful to be uncommon. You can drop a 4/3 with negligible drawback on turn 2. That is nuts!
I haven't thought about Amonkhet enough to comment on it in retrospect, but I have the feeling that I may like it at least a little more. I am optimistic that there is a general trend towards better design of the 2-set blocks, even if it's not necessarily the case.
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
I'm not sure which group is the originator of this, whether it was Konami, WoTC, or another company, but yeah the entire problem of pushing the power of rares and mythics and pushing down the power of commons and uncommons was less of a decision for draft and more of a market choice to push packs.
To me the decision was a failure on all counts. Today you open a pack and only one card matters. There aren't enough great uncommons to save packs from trash rares. It also sucks from a money standpoint as that one card that matters is the sole determination whether the pack you just spent $4 on was worth the money, and since more than half of rares are garbage most of the time it wasn't.
I've been playing Mtg since its birth and I've always played casual.
Here's what I think;
1) The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo.
You need to give the casual (aggro) players more answers against combo by [re]printing more anti-combo cards at common or uncommon level. For example, Krosan Grip, etc. If the aggro casuals have/find no answer in their collection, they quit and the group falls apart. I write 'at common or uncommon', because casuals will not look for some specific outside of Standard rare to beat the combo player.
2) Print less vanilla/crap cards. I understand you need a vanilla 2/2 to explain the game to noobs, but we don't need three vanilla creatures in every set. Also: When you print crap cards, try to make them interesting chaff in some way; For example, 'Goats your opponents control get -1/-0.' Is a completely worthless ability, but it's a lot more fun than nothing. Your business model (collectible) forces you to print crap. But at least make the crap funny or versatile or weird.
3) The artwork/flavor is too immature (comic book style) and too bland (derivative). Most of the people I know who play this game are now 30+ and at least 20+. We can handle artwork and themes which are more iconic and intellectual. The first editions of this game had "iconic" art (i.e. like Tarot cards). We were the sorcerers, crunching lotuses and trading glyphs. A thing I personally hate is the way in which WOTC takes existing mythologies like the Greek or Egyptian gods, and then sticks new names on them. It feels derivative and cheap most of the time.
* What we need is an oldschool art set with King Arthur. I want to equip Excalibur and tap the Holy Grail. And I want these things to be called what they are. Not 'Barthur, the king' but King Arthur!
4) The 'world' is beginning to feel unhinged, like a cheap collage of not really connectable things. (Same is going on in D&D if you look at its art.) We need something like Warhammer has. The new planeswalkers generation, although WOTC have been pushing them for a decade now, are not interesting. They are cartoons, really. Gerrard was not popular, and neither was his story, but the idea of a group of non-superhero heroes travelling the planes and fixing things made sense. One of my favorite sets, flavorwise, remains Fallen Empires, because its flavor told a history. It felt like a place, a place with a history, instead of a creatures collection.
And here is where Wotc has created a monster and cant please every one.
I too have been playing the game since the inception of the game. I couldnt stand the old art work. It was messy and dirty. Was hard to understand what was going on in the art. The borders made them worse.
Now how is Wotc going to please both camps of art people? They cant. Thats why I have put art to the background to the game. And I much prefer todays Magic to 1997 Magic.
magic really only has a couple of small problems right now - everything else is fine.
1) new standard sets need more powerful answers (removal/disruption). The reasoning is simple. threats are powerful in Standard (and by extension, Modern), and it has recently been the case that a slightly misjudged threat ends up sweeping away the format in an unhealthy way. I can remember there being numerous busted creatures in sets past, but it wasn't really an issue as the removal and counters were so much better. the answer is simple. keep doing what you're doing with regards to threats, but ramp up the disruption a little. Mistakes happen, and often these mistakes are the most beloved and interesting cards in a set. All you need to have is the tools within a card pool to deal with whatever slips through R&D's net.
this raises an example - Counterspell was fine in Magic for years. Nobody really had an issue with it, in fact it solved a lot of issues. At what point did it suddenly become too good? The real answer is that it didn't. Wizards just decided that it didn't with with their updated design ethos, and wanted to tone down that aspect of the game. since that time, people have developed an irrational fear of those sorts of effects being too good, when realistically many of them were fine. Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Lightning Bolt, Vapor Snag, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Remand, Mana Leak, Path to Exile. Standard was interesting with these cards in it, and it was nigh-impossible for big dumb powerful creatures to take over and get banned. People aren't going to stop playing your game because their bunch of 3/4s got blown up with a wrath effect. there needs to be some legitimate two-and-fro to the game and at the moment it's all about who plays their threats on curve. I'd wager a guess that if they reprinted any of these in the next standard set, it would be fine.
2) following from the first point: Wizards needs to loosen up and be a bit more free with their card design for new sets. They have been really, intensely "playing it safe" for a while now, in an attempt to micromanage standard and balance everything to the Nth degree. This just leads to any mistakes or slightly misjudged cards just completely taking over because everything else is too flat and toned down in effect. Building better answers (point 1) into a format allows you to push boundaries in more interesting ways without crippling fear of it taking over.
bonus 3) Magic Online needs to link more closely to paper magic. promo codes in paper boosters, allowing you to redeem a digital booster is what some other games do and I feel like it's a great option. Having to purchase two collections seems backwards now, although in the past i'm sure it made sense.
Pauper and custom Cubes are really the only formats that still play the way I want MtG to play.
1) The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo.
You need to give the casual (aggro) players more answers against combo by [re]printing more anti-combo cards at common or uncommon level. For example, Krosan Grip, etc. If the aggro casuals have/find no answer in their collection, they quit and the group falls apart. I write 'at common or uncommon', because casuals will not look for some specific outside of Standard rare to beat the combo player.
This is he one point I'm not 100% in agreement with. There is little combo or control hate at common/uncommon, but there are also few combo or control tools at common or uncommon. WotC has been very cautious with mana accelerants, counters and draw spells that aren't glued to a creature and printed at Rare or Mythic. The push for creatures over anything else makes generic little kid Creatures-and-Lands decks better than they've ever been.
And here is where Wotc has created a monster and cant please every one.
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
"The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo."
"Degenerates" is a horrible term to be applied here. "Changes" is more accurate. Question though, what kind of "casual group of players" are you playing with/against? If you are playing with your friends in a closed group isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play and who does not? If it's your choice why do the control and combo players bother you?
If you are talking about wanting to lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play formats like FNM or tournaments that sounds entitled and selfish to me, and the kind of attitude that should never leave the kitchen table, certainly never step foot into a game store where one is likely to encounter players who like to play all different styles and decks.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
magic really only has a couple of small problems right now - everything else is fine.
1) new standard sets need more powerful answers (removal/disruption). The reasoning is simple. threats are powerful in Standard (and by extension, Modern), and it has recently been the case that a slightly misjudged threat ends up sweeping away the format in an unhealthy way. I can remember there being numerous busted creatures in sets past, but it wasn't really an issue as the removal and counters were so much better. the answer is simple. keep doing what you're doing with regards to threats, but ramp up the disruption a little. Mistakes happen, and often these mistakes are the most beloved and interesting cards in a set. All you need to have is the tools within a card pool to deal with whatever slips through R&D's net.
this raises an example - Counterspell was fine in Magic for years. Nobody really had an issue with it, in fact it solved a lot of issues. At what point did it suddenly become too good? The real answer is that it didn't. Wizards just decided that it didn't with with their updated design ethos, and wanted to tone down that aspect of the game. since that time, people have developed an irrational fear of those sorts of effects being too good, when realistically many of them were fine. Doom Blade, Go For the Throat, Lightning Bolt, Vapor Snag, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Remand, Mana Leak, Path to Exile. Standard was interesting with these cards in it, and it was nigh-impossible for big dumb powerful creatures to take over and get banned. People aren't going to stop playing your game because their bunch of 3/4s got blown up with a wrath effect. there needs to be some legitimate two-and-fro to the game and at the moment it's all about who plays their threats on curve. I'd wager a guess that if they reprinted any of these in the next standard set, it would be fine.
2) following from the first point: Wizards needs to loosen up and be a bit more free with their card design for new sets. They have been really, intensely "playing it safe" for a while now, in an attempt to micromanage standard and balance everything to the Nth degree. This just leads to any mistakes or slightly misjudged cards just completely taking over because everything else is too flat and toned down in effect. Building better answers (point 1) into a format allows you to push boundaries in more interesting ways without crippling fear of it taking over.
This would be a step in the right direction to rebalance the game, not to weaken the creatures but to bring back answers.
To be frank, the best thing they could probably do for the game to help make deck building easier is stop making planeswalkers and get rid of ETB effects. Basically make creatures only have activated abilities or things like Hexproof, trample, flying, etc. The entire reason free tutor and play cards are broken along with blink mechanics is that they made effectively spells with bodies attached. I can't really fault the current developers for this because really, the ETB and walker stuff started back in Mirrodin -> Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. However, ETB was originally something like Mogg War Marshal, which just made another creature come with it into play. This worked fine because logically, it was a goblin and in magic lore those are basically the hordlings of the game. However, since that point they started losing it and forgetting what a creature is supposed to be vs a sorcery. We got Emrakul, the promised end, Reflector Mage, Spell Queller, gear hulks, the titans, etc, that basically are spells attached to creatures for no real logical reason. This being comboed with weaker sorceries and instants thanks to trying to do two effects at once at an inflated cost amplified the issue.
Making spells with bodies takes away decision making when creating decks. Creatures are supposed to be static points of defense and damage, where sorceries and instants are the ephemeral effects that interact with players and creatures. Enchantments and artifacts are supposed to be the things that provide static effects and boosts. Now creatures are all three things and wizards threw in planeswalkers, which can be incredibly ambiguous as to where to fit into a deck thanks to having way too many abilities stapled onto them as well as being vulnerable to damage.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I can't really fault the current developers for this because really, the ETB and walker stuff started back in Mirrodin -> Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. However, ETB was originally something like Mogg War Marshal, which just made another creature come with it into play.
please get your facts straight.
The M:TG World Championchip of 1997 was won with 5-Color-Black, which used Nekrataal, Man-O'-War and the infamos "sex monkeys".
The following year was won by NightmareSurvival, a deck that used Survival of the fittest and recurring nightmare with ETB-Creatures like wall of blossoms and cloudchaser eagle in addition to the already mentioned cards.
That was 5-6 years before Mirrodin.
Ah, so it's actually older than that even. I still feel ETB creatures is a bad idea if they want to go with free casting, so it's basically they either stop making free cast cards or keep the ETBs. I think it's better if they moved away from ETB and started putting more focus on defining what a sorcery is vs a creature. Interesting note that I started playing the game around 1996, but never really paid attention to the tournament scene at the time.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
"The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo."
"Degenerates" is a horrible term to be applied here. "Changes" is more accurate. Question though, what kind of "casual group of players" are you playing with/against? If you are playing with your friends in a closed group isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play and who does not? If it's your choice why do the control and combo players bother you?
If you are talking about wanting to lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play formats like FNM or tournaments that sounds entitled and selfish to me, and the kind of attitude that should never leave the kitchen table, certainly never step foot into a game store where one is likely to encounter players who like to play all different styles and decks.
Nowhere did I advocate "lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play". You are putting words in my mouth.
Your pseudosolution "isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play" is exactly what causes such groups to fall apart. One of the players switches to infinite combo or denial, and the others do not possess the necessary cards to deal with it, so they start avoiding said group (because they can't really kick the player, can they? Doing so would be impolite.)
The solution is to hand these casual players the tools they need against such infinite combo decks by printing decent combo-stopping removal. Jester's Cap should be in every core set (alas, we have no more such thing as core set)
I've already mentioned non-rares like Krosan Grip.
If such cards are in Standard, they'll end up in a casual player's deck. But if they aren't available, how are casuals supposed to deal with something their card pool simply doesn't have an answer for?
If its pure casual, then they literally can go and order 25 cent or less cards online. If they are working from just a casual standard cardpool, how are they running into draw-go control or combo in the first place? And anyone who's taking a teir 1 standard deck to a casual standard table is a horrible person, and should be expelled from the group. That's probably the best feature of small social groups.
Jester's Cap is the wrong kind of answer, it's super specific. Stuff like counterspell, Doomblade, innocent blood/edicts are what we're talking about for generic universal answers. Jester's cap may stop a combo, but paying 4+2 mana for something that doesn't effect the board state? That's the kind of thing that loses you the game in any format.
"The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo."
"Degenerates" is a horrible term to be applied here. "Changes" is more accurate. Question though, what kind of "casual group of players" are you playing with/against? If you are playing with your friends in a closed group isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play and who does not? If it's your choice why do the control and combo players bother you?
If you are talking about wanting to lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play formats like FNM or tournaments that sounds entitled and selfish to me, and the kind of attitude that should never leave the kitchen table, certainly never step foot into a game store where one is likely to encounter players who like to play all different styles and decks.
Nowhere did I advocate "lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play". You are putting words in my mouth.
Your pseudosolution "isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play" is exactly what causes such groups to fall apart. One of the players switches to infinite combo or denial, and the others do not possess the necessary cards to deal with it, so they start avoiding said group (because they can't really kick the player, can they? Doing so would be impolite.)
The solution is to hand these casual players the tools they need against such infinite combo decks by printing decent combo-stopping removal. Jester's Cap should be in every core set (alas, we have no more such thing as core set)
I've already mentioned non-rares like Krosan Grip.
If such cards are in Standard, they'll end up in a casual player's deck. But if they aren't available, how are casuals supposed to deal with something their card pool simply doesn't have an answer for?
I don't know precisely what formats you might play or what you consider to be "casual" but any format offering prizes for finishing at or near the top is not a casual format and will see the Spikes circling like sharks. Sounds to me like you need to find a group of players that want to play the game the way that you do and you will be much happier.
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FREE MODERN. Break the Standard link.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
I've been playing Mtg since its birth and I've always played casual.
Here's what I think;
1) The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo.
You need to give the casual (aggro) players more answers against combo by [re]printing more anti-combo cards at common or uncommon level. For example, Krosan Grip, etc. If the aggro casuals have/find no answer in their collection, they quit and the group falls apart. I write 'at common or uncommon', because casuals will not look for some specific outside of Standard rare to beat the combo player.
2) Print less vanilla/crap cards. I understand you need a vanilla 2/2 to explain the game to noobs, but we don't need three vanilla creatures in every set. Also: When you print crap cards, try to make them interesting chaff in some way; For example, 'Goats your opponents control get -1/-0.' Is a completely worthless ability, but it's a lot more fun than nothing. Your business model (collectible) forces you to print crap. But at least make the crap funny or versatile or weird.
3) The artwork/flavor is too immature (comic book style) and too bland (derivative). Most of the people I know who play this game are now 30+ and at least 20+. We can handle artwork and themes which are more iconic and intellectual. The first editions of this game had "iconic" art (i.e. like Tarot cards). We were the sorcerers, crunching lotuses and trading glyphs. A thing I personally hate is the way in which WOTC takes existing mythologies like the Greek or Egyptian gods, and then sticks new names on them. It feels derivative and cheap most of the time.
* What we need is an oldschool art set with King Arthur. I want to equip Excalibur and tap the Holy Grail. And I want these things to be called what they are. Not 'Barthur, the king' but King Arthur!
4) The 'world' is beginning to feel unhinged, like a cheap collage of not really connectable things. (Same is going on in D&D if you look at its art.) We need something like Warhammer has. The new planeswalkers generation, although WOTC have been pushing them for a decade now, are not interesting. They are cartoons, really. Gerrard was not popular, and neither was his story, but the idea of a group of non-superhero heroes travelling the planes and fixing things made sense. One of my favorite sets, flavorwise, remains Fallen Empires, because its flavor told a history. It felt like a place, a place with a history, instead of a creatures collection.
If you have a healthy meta, the control decks should also keep the combo decks in check
Also, control has been doing very badly recently in all formats. There is no need to print control hate in standard sets if control is non-existant
in legacy, the last true control deck, miracles has just died due to the top ban
in modern, control is dead
in standard, the answers are completely terrible. Without any control decks to check combo decks, copy-cat went crazy and destroyed the standard environment.
"The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo."
"Degenerates" is a horrible term to be applied here. "Changes" is more accurate. Question though, what kind of "casual group of players" are you playing with/against? If you are playing with your friends in a closed group isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play and who does not? If it's your choice why do the control and combo players bother you?
If you are talking about wanting to lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play formats like FNM or tournaments that sounds entitled and selfish to me, and the kind of attitude that should never leave the kitchen table, certainly never step foot into a game store where one is likely to encounter players who like to play all different styles and decks.
Nowhere did I advocate "lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play". You are putting words in my mouth.
Your pseudosolution "isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play" is exactly what causes such groups to fall apart. One of the players switches to infinite combo or denial, and the others do not possess the necessary cards to deal with it, so they start avoiding said group (because they can't really kick the player, can they? Doing so would be impolite.)
The solution is to hand these casual players the tools they need against such infinite combo decks by printing decent combo-stopping removal. Jester's Cap should be in every core set (alas, we have no more such thing as core set)
I've already mentioned non-rares like Krosan Grip.
If such cards are in Standard, they'll end up in a casual player's deck. But if they aren't available, how are casuals supposed to deal with something their card pool simply doesn't have an answer for?
Have you considered just going to the local game store and dropping $50. You are a casual game group format legality does not matter so you have access to everything ever printing and lots of it is pretty low priced.
So, lose money developing and printing, shipping, and marketing a product majority of your playerbase won't buy because they already own X copies of most cards in it. And what they are really asking for, is a notice saying X cards are legal in standard still.
Deck Builder's Toolkits are where these old core set reprints should be, they are extremely low volume compared to booster boxes, bought by newer players and casual fans, and allow the standard card pool to stay big with 'welcome deck' cards usually being included.
Nightmare is in standard right now. Yet I don't hear anyone complaining that we need a core set to reprint it. The 'Welcomde deck' / deckbuidler toolkit is THE PLACE to put these cards. Keeps the standard cardpool full of non-themed evergreen cards, and is a low cost product to produce.
What I think you really want, is reprints of expensive stuff because the cost is gettiing ridiculous. True. Lot of cards are expensive due to scarcity. Wotc acts like it cares nothing about the secondary market. But then it still has the reserve list, and still prints reprints of cards at $10 a pack.
If they want to do Core Sets again, they do not have to take the slot of Standard Booster Set. One of those 4 slots, Jan/April/July/September. They can push it out the door when the market is weak and bored in Feb/March just before a new Block starts. Where Modern Masters set releases now. There's no law against having 5 standard booster sets a year.
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Wanted -Zombie Foils and older expensive Zombie stuff. High Priority- Beta Z Master/ Int. Collector's Edition.
The game just doesnt offer enough options for players anymore. Green doesnt get its mana dorks. Blue doesnt get its counterspells. White/Black doesnt get the really good sweepers. Red doesnt really get its multifuncional burn. Having a wide variety of options is good for the game. But people complain blue is no fun to play against and that no one should lose a round 1-0 and people complain that over extending in to a sweeper isnt fun and people complain that fighting against an sped up clock isnt fair, blah blah blah.
I also think eliminating the core set was a HUGE mistake. Many of the color "staples" were found in those sets.....Incinerate/Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak, Wrath of God, Llanowar Elves, etc. These were the "GLUE" cards that opened up the format and gave players more options.
This is a great point. By now the means of getting reprints is in products that require paying a premium price, whether it's Conspiracy or any of the Masters sets... Now we're at the point where people need the reprints to go down in price but these reprints are stuck in $10 boosters. Now we have unopened product with high demand sitting on shelves. It's not a formula for making reprints cheaper when the pack cost is so high that it creates an artificial floor rather than the sheer quantity determining the floor value. Despite boxes sitting on shelves, the market is not saturated. What happens when the 2nd batch of MM17 is released and there's still product on the shelves? It's not looking like a good formula.
They really shouldn't have done the Masters series to begin with. At least not at the 240 msrp price point and as a limited print run. Wizards can't erase the cards they printed from existence and people want those older cards, so they should at least be putting some effort into trying to get historic sets affordable. Some posters seem to think that players already have modern cards and won't buy reprint sets at 99 msrp, but if the market is any indication I somehow doubt players have scalding tarn, Noble Hierarch, or any of these other insanely expensive cards.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
People seem to be willing to pay $10 a pack for these sets. They people I game with seem to have little problem with it. Personally I refuse to pay that, half out of principle, and half because if I were to pull anything exciting I would end up wanting to spend more to get a playset.
I think $10 a pack is an insult, but it seems to work so who am I to say.
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I mean, I've introduced a bunch of people to magic with my pauper gauntlet, and when those people went on to play standard, quite a few of them were wondering where all the strong spells were. I do get that card advantage is much more of a nebulous concept, and harder to keep track of than big dudes on the board, but do "new players" really just prefer a game that has all of the interaction jammed into combat? I find that hard to believe based on my personal experience.
Also, would it really kill wizards to have some sort of free decent tutorial/glossary/demo that introduces basic to advanced concepts? A digital would be perfect for this sort of thing, and to use the fighting game comparison again, most of the current fighters have pretty good tutorials, and that includes advanced stuff. If they don't want to pay for it, i'm sure the community would be really easy to exploit, just like judges are.I guess wizards is just stuck in the mid/late 90's or something based on MODO.
Also, I'm pretty sure that MTG has or will very soon reach market saturation, and a lot of this is Hasbro pressure to keep up the insane growth rates.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
I'm not sure which group is the originator of this, whether it was Konami, WoTC, or another company, but yeah the entire problem of pushing the power of rares and mythics and pushing down the power of commons and uncommons was less of a decision for draft and more of a market choice to push packs.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Internal Correspondence did speculate that while revenue for sindividual tores and suppliers might be down, it might not have decreased overall due to there being more places to buy. But Hasbro's Investor Relations Remarks seems to disprove that, as it admits Magic: the Gathering revenues declined, giving the confusing excuse of it being due to the impact of "the timing of new story-lead releases."
It does seem that sales, indeed, have declined for Magic.
Yeah I frequent 3 main LGS in my area but we have about 20 LGS with in an hour or so. Of those 3 LGS, 1 said they are about equal to last years sales. They are the oldest and most established LGS, so they have a pretty loyal following. Another LGS that has been open only 4 years found sales had gone up each year or Magic. The 3rd LGS said they show a slight down turn in sales of Magic. The 3rd LGS caters to a more casual crowd. Heavy in EDH and Frontier. The only reason I stop in this store is because its like 5 minutes from the house. It was opened by a long time player in the area that I have known for 10+ years.
Sad to see over all sales are down. But I would assume the business has cycles and we are just in a down side.
The game has to cater to all kinds. I personally would rather rip a bomb in limited and know I have a chance to cash out. Then know I never got the bomb and know my chances are rather slim to cash out. Granted, Wotc has gotten better about the power of the bombs for limited reasons. Very few cards in todays Magic are, slam it on the table and you win. In other words, unbeatable cards.
Now if you want to talk constructed, I agree to an extent.
I haven't thought about Amonkhet enough to comment on it in retrospect, but I have the feeling that I may like it at least a little more. I am optimistic that there is a general trend towards better design of the 2-set blocks, even if it's not necessarily the case.
To me the decision was a failure on all counts. Today you open a pack and only one card matters. There aren't enough great uncommons to save packs from trash rares. It also sucks from a money standpoint as that one card that matters is the sole determination whether the pack you just spent $4 on was worth the money, and since more than half of rares are garbage most of the time it wasn't.
And here is where Wotc has created a monster and cant please every one.
I too have been playing the game since the inception of the game. I couldnt stand the old art work. It was messy and dirty. Was hard to understand what was going on in the art. The borders made them worse.
Now how is Wotc going to please both camps of art people? They cant. Thats why I have put art to the background to the game. And I much prefer todays Magic to 1997 Magic.
1) new standard sets need more powerful answers (removal/disruption). The reasoning is simple. threats are powerful in Standard (and by extension, Modern), and it has recently been the case that a slightly misjudged threat ends up sweeping away the format in an unhealthy way. I can remember there being numerous busted creatures in sets past, but it wasn't really an issue as the removal and counters were so much better. the answer is simple. keep doing what you're doing with regards to threats, but ramp up the disruption a little. Mistakes happen, and often these mistakes are the most beloved and interesting cards in a set. All you need to have is the tools within a card pool to deal with whatever slips through R&D's net.
this raises an example - Counterspell was fine in Magic for years. Nobody really had an issue with it, in fact it solved a lot of issues. At what point did it suddenly become too good? The real answer is that it didn't. Wizards just decided that it didn't with with their updated design ethos, and wanted to tone down that aspect of the game. since that time, people have developed an irrational fear of those sorts of effects being too good, when realistically many of them were fine. Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Lightning Bolt, Vapor Snag, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Remand, Mana Leak, Path to Exile. Standard was interesting with these cards in it, and it was nigh-impossible for big dumb powerful creatures to take over and get banned. People aren't going to stop playing your game because their bunch of 3/4s got blown up with a wrath effect. there needs to be some legitimate two-and-fro to the game and at the moment it's all about who plays their threats on curve. I'd wager a guess that if they reprinted any of these in the next standard set, it would be fine.
2) following from the first point: Wizards needs to loosen up and be a bit more free with their card design for new sets. They have been really, intensely "playing it safe" for a while now, in an attempt to micromanage standard and balance everything to the Nth degree. This just leads to any mistakes or slightly misjudged cards just completely taking over because everything else is too flat and toned down in effect. Building better answers (point 1) into a format allows you to push boundaries in more interesting ways without crippling fear of it taking over.
bonus 3) Magic Online needs to link more closely to paper magic. promo codes in paper boosters, allowing you to redeem a digital booster is what some other games do and I feel like it's a great option. Having to purchase two collections seems backwards now, although in the past i'm sure it made sense.
-The art style is so goofy, childish, and cartoonish now.
-OP Creatures taking over the game. Magic has essentially became Pokemon TCG, where almost every strategy involves turning guys sideways.
Every single deck attacking with an army of cartoons doesn't make me feel like a powerful wizard at all.
I agree with nearly all of this post.
Pauper and custom Cubes are really the only formats that still play the way I want MtG to play.
This is he one point I'm not 100% in agreement with. There is little combo or control hate at common/uncommon, but there are also few combo or control tools at common or uncommon. WotC has been very cautious with mana accelerants, counters and draw spells that aren't glued to a creature and printed at Rare or Mythic. The push for creatures over anything else makes generic little kid Creatures-and-Lands decks better than they've ever been.
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
"Degenerates" is a horrible term to be applied here. "Changes" is more accurate. Question though, what kind of "casual group of players" are you playing with/against? If you are playing with your friends in a closed group isn't it up to you who gets to sit down and play and who does not? If it's your choice why do the control and combo players bother you?
If you are talking about wanting to lock control and combo players out of open-to-sign-up-and-play formats like FNM or tournaments that sounds entitled and selfish to me, and the kind of attitude that should never leave the kitchen table, certainly never step foot into a game store where one is likely to encounter players who like to play all different styles and decks.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
This would be a step in the right direction to rebalance the game, not to weaken the creatures but to bring back answers.
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Oooh Dicey:
[dice=1]100[/dice]
Making spells with bodies takes away decision making when creating decks. Creatures are supposed to be static points of defense and damage, where sorceries and instants are the ephemeral effects that interact with players and creatures. Enchantments and artifacts are supposed to be the things that provide static effects and boosts. Now creatures are all three things and wizards threw in planeswalkers, which can be incredibly ambiguous as to where to fit into a deck thanks to having way too many abilities stapled onto them as well as being vulnerable to damage.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Ah, so it's actually older than that even. I still feel ETB creatures is a bad idea if they want to go with free casting, so it's basically they either stop making free cast cards or keep the ETBs. I think it's better if they moved away from ETB and started putting more focus on defining what a sorcery is vs a creature. Interesting note that I started playing the game around 1996, but never really paid attention to the tournament scene at the time.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If its pure casual, then they literally can go and order 25 cent or less cards online. If they are working from just a casual standard cardpool, how are they running into draw-go control or combo in the first place? And anyone who's taking a teir 1 standard deck to a casual standard table is a horrible person, and should be expelled from the group. That's probably the best feature of small social groups.
Jester's Cap is the wrong kind of answer, it's super specific. Stuff like counterspell, Doomblade, innocent blood/edicts are what we're talking about for generic universal answers. Jester's cap may stop a combo, but paying 4+2 mana for something that doesn't effect the board state? That's the kind of thing that loses you the game in any format.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
I don't know precisely what formats you might play or what you consider to be "casual" but any format offering prizes for finishing at or near the top is not a casual format and will see the Spikes circling like sharks. Sounds to me like you need to find a group of players that want to play the game the way that you do and you will be much happier.
I play Magic: the Gathering, not Magic: the Commandering.
there are plenty of cards printed at common or uncommon that are great against control
such as:
bloodbraid elf
duress
cabal therapy
lingering souls
treetop village
young wolf
strangleroot geist
shardless agent
skullclamp
embalm creatures
hexproof creatures
and so many more
as for combo hate at common/uncommon, you have
duress, despise, cabal therapy
any form of spot removal such as terminate, doom blade, go for the throat, swords to plowshares, beast within, lightning bolt, fatal push ect...
you also have counterspells such as negate, dispel, spell pierce ect..
If you have a healthy meta, the control decks should also keep the combo decks in check
Also, control has been doing very badly recently in all formats. There is no need to print control hate in standard sets if control is non-existant
in legacy, the last true control deck, miracles has just died due to the top ban
in modern, control is dead
in standard, the answers are completely terrible. Without any control decks to check combo decks, copy-cat went crazy and destroyed the standard environment.
Have you considered just going to the local game store and dropping $50. You are a casual game group format legality does not matter so you have access to everything ever printing and lots of it is pretty low priced.
So, lose money developing and printing, shipping, and marketing a product majority of your playerbase won't buy because they already own X copies of most cards in it. And what they are really asking for, is a notice saying X cards are legal in standard still.
Deck Builder's Toolkits are where these old core set reprints should be, they are extremely low volume compared to booster boxes, bought by newer players and casual fans, and allow the standard card pool to stay big with 'welcome deck' cards usually being included.
Nightmare is in standard right now. Yet I don't hear anyone complaining that we need a core set to reprint it. The 'Welcomde deck' / deckbuidler toolkit is THE PLACE to put these cards. Keeps the standard cardpool full of non-themed evergreen cards, and is a low cost product to produce.
What I think you really want, is reprints of expensive stuff because the cost is gettiing ridiculous. True. Lot of cards are expensive due to scarcity. Wotc acts like it cares nothing about the secondary market. But then it still has the reserve list, and still prints reprints of cards at $10 a pack.
If they want to do Core Sets again, they do not have to take the slot of Standard Booster Set. One of those 4 slots, Jan/April/July/September. They can push it out the door when the market is weak and bored in Feb/March just before a new Block starts. Where Modern Masters set releases now. There's no law against having 5 standard booster sets a year.
Selling some cards I don't want.
Generally less than tcg mid.
This is a great point. By now the means of getting reprints is in products that require paying a premium price, whether it's Conspiracy or any of the Masters sets... Now we're at the point where people need the reprints to go down in price but these reprints are stuck in $10 boosters. Now we have unopened product with high demand sitting on shelves. It's not a formula for making reprints cheaper when the pack cost is so high that it creates an artificial floor rather than the sheer quantity determining the floor value. Despite boxes sitting on shelves, the market is not saturated. What happens when the 2nd batch of MM17 is released and there's still product on the shelves? It's not looking like a good formula.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I think $10 a pack is an insult, but it seems to work so who am I to say.