With the rise in popularity of Frontier I've noticed all the claims about how it's a brewers paradise, or how Modern is so stale, solved, and has no room for innovation. People seem to want a format that they can play their old standard cards in without breaking the bank for super old ones. But then, despite all the reasons to not like Modern, Frontier players want a format that never rotates. This is odd to me as eventually Frontier will become far too large just like Legacy and Modern, thus not solving anything.
A long time ago existed extended, no not the 4 year super standard that some of you may remember, and no not even the brief 7 year extended that even fewer of you will remember. The format Extended was a format that contained anywhere from 6 to 8 blocks and only rotated once every 3 years. Just like in standard where 3 sets, and a core set, rotate at a time, 3 blocks would rotate at a time.
This is my Modern solution. It gives players of Frontier everything they've ever wanted and no long term problems. Players get a format with slow rotation so for 3 years it feels like an eternal format with cards only being added to it. But it never gets so large and out of control that older cards become too difficult to find or too pricy as in Modern and especially Legacy. And the format never gets stale because everyone will know that rotation is coming so if the format stinks well don't worry because it's only temporary.
So what do you think? Is this the solution to Modern and all non rotating formats?
I don't think it would be a fix for the non-rotating format people, because it still rotates, you can't make a deck that by dodging bans can be legal indefinitely. Honestly I think it is about the least likely format for Wizards to get behind these days because it would cannibalize Standard, it would be better at being that format and sell fewer packs of the newest set. I don't see Frontier sticking around past, let's say the rotation of Amonkhet, because if it grows, the minute the staples get expensive, which they will, what incentive is there to play it over Modern?
I think that really for non-rotating formats, we are stuck with the ones that are actually sanctioned for now. the best thing would be for Wizards to take Modern reprints more seriously 'these cards prices have gotten out of hand, they WILL be reprinted at this time in this product'. reprint Goyf in every product with green until it goes way the heck down. same for a whole lot of other staples. the solution is fixing the formats we have, not trying agin and making another go at a format that will die out while Legacy and Vintage take their sweet time dying
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With the rise in popularity of Frontier I've noticed all the claims about how it's a brewers paradise...
That has nothing to do with the avaliable card pool and all to do with it not being a real format. If it became a sanctioned format with any PT or WMC presence it would be solved within two weeks and everyone would be netdecking or losing to optimal lists.
If you want a format where you can actually brew a deck to consistently beat 2/3 of the top decks, you're looking for Legacy. A Legacy variant with all RL cards banned would be the real brewer's paradise.
I don't think this is really what frontier players want. The main incentive to play non-rotating formats is the ability to keep your cards and just tweak your existing decks with new sets (and maybe occasionally build a new one in addition to the stuff you already have).
The main problem here is the price for entering a long-running format. Ideally, most players would like a non-rotating format that matches their own collection (what is pretty much why I will stick with modern, since I really got into MTG with Mirrodin block).
As Melkor mentioned, extended would mostly take players away from standard, not from frontier/modern (at least in the long run). That alone makes it more than unlikely for WOTC to reintroduce this - standard is the main factor that sells their product and they're struggling to keep people interested in it already.
My thinking is that people just don't realize that Extended is what they really want. Frontier players say they want a non rotating format that isn't stale and has a ton of room for innovation. You can't have it both ways though. You know what causes brewing and changes up the monotony - it's rotation.
But I get that players want to add to their decks overtime, that's why I recommend a rotation every 3 years. You build a deck, then add to it over the course of 3 years, that's a lot of sets. Frontier, to me, is a player initiated rotation of Modern. Players want a shake up and are tired of seeing the same decks all the time; well, that's actually called rotation. And as a result of rotation, Wizards doesn't need to ban cards as often since rotation also takes care of that.
With the rise in popularity of Frontier I've noticed all the claims about how it's a brewers paradise...
That has nothing to do with the avaliable card pool and all to do with it not being a real format. If it became a sanctioned format with any PT or WMC presence it would be solved within two weeks and everyone would be netdecking or losing to optimal lists.
If you want a format where you can actually brew a deck to consistently beat 2/3 of the top decks, you're looking for Legacy. A Legacy variant with all RL cards banned would be the real brewer's paradise.
I agree that format gets solved quickly when the pros play it but that's true of any format, and would be true of Frontier as well. No RL Legacy is not the answer as that still has the same problem as Modern, which is card availability. Wizards has proven time and time again that they aren't serious about making Modern affordable.
I think the thing with eternal/non-rotating formats is that in order to keep prices down, they have to either just keep reprinting cards or have to keep making a new format every few years, as older cards get more expensive/harder to find, so each "new" format will essentially only be a temporary solution. If Wizards has to keep making new formats, I feel that there could be some form of confidence loss in each new format as it goes.
I feel that having a format with a larger card pool and longer periods of time in between rotations, ie once every 3 years, rather than once every year, it could solve a few problems. It will allow people who want to play a larger format, but don't have the option to buy into modern or legacy to have a larger format. Also people who wanna play old standard cards can still do so.
Having a rotation will make it so that the format will get less stale and you won't have to worry as much about older staples being expensive or hard to find
Considering the complaints about modern and standard, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought back extended, but I think they're starting to have issues with consumer exhaustion. There are so many events for so many different things, and they can't appeal to everyone, and the idea of adding another format for people to go to might just be too much.
We don't actually need extended. The problem right now is that wizards created an implicit promise with the making of the reserved list that other card games avoided, and that was to honor the value of cards on the second hand market. It's why they keep having to print awful mana bases at common and uncommon, while only peppering reprints of high demand modern lands like zendikar fetches.
Regardless of format, they will never be able to run a non-rotating format for casual and competitive players if they have to honor secondary market price increases, as it means the company can't adequately answer demands on rotated cards.
The community at large has been pushing back against this for a while, though, so there is hope out there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I challenge this notion of a "rise in popularity." Article coverage of the format has been virtually nonexistent these past weeks, most of the major events dropped all their Frontier side events after many didn't fire, and even Japanese Frontier tournament attendance is still much lower than it is at Japanese Modern events. I focus on the Japanese attendance issue because this is the target audience for Frontier and many of these events are launched by the company that pushed Frontier in the first place! But when a Sunday Frontier event draws only 16 people and the Modern one is still drawing 38, or 13 for Frontier and 30 for Modern on the same day, that points to some underlying problems. Indeed, in the Hareruya circuit and tracked tournaments, Frontier attendance is about equal to Standard attendance; Modern is still ahead on most days.
If Frontier can't gain traction in that core target market, there's no way it's going to succeed elsewhere. This is what happens when companies launch formats primarily to sell unpopular stock.
I challenge this notion of a "rise in popularity." Article coverage of the format has been virtually nonexistent these past weeks, most of the major events dropped all their Frontier side events after many didn't fire, and even Japanese Frontier tournament attendance is still much lower than it is at Japanese Modern events. I focus on the Japanese attendance issue because this is the target audience for Frontier and many of these events are launched by the company that pushed Frontier in the first place! But when a Sunday Frontier event draws only 16 people and the Modern one is still drawing 38, or 13 for Frontier and 30 for Modern on the same day, that points to some underlying problems. Indeed, in the Hareruya circuit and tracked tournaments, Frontier attendance is about equal to Standard attendance; Modern is still ahead on most days.
If Frontier can't gain traction in that core target market, there's no way it's going to succeed elsewhere. This is what happens when companies launch formats primarily to sell unpopular stock.
I feel that frontier is kinda similar to how tiny leaders was about 2 years ago, exciting as it was "a new thing" . Tiny Leaders became solved really quickly, as there were realistically only a few leaders that were viable.
in Canada, Frontier was sort of popular in the Toronto area, with Face to Face cashing in on it by hosting events on Sundays and having a few Frontier side events at their opens. Even interest in Toronto has died down there. I'm not saying Frontier was solved as quickly as Tiny Leaders was but interest seemed to last about as long
I challenge this notion of a "rise in popularity." Article coverage of the format has been virtually nonexistent these past weeks, most of the major events dropped all their Frontier side events after many didn't fire, and even Japanese Frontier tournament attendance is still much lower than it is at Japanese Modern events. I focus on the Japanese attendance issue because this is the target audience for Frontier and many of these events are launched by the company that pushed Frontier in the first place! But when a Sunday Frontier event draws only 16 people and the Modern one is still drawing 38, or 13 for Frontier and 30 for Modern on the same day, that points to some underlying problems. Indeed, in the Hareruya circuit and tracked tournaments, Frontier attendance is about equal to Standard attendance; Modern is still ahead on most days.
If Frontier can't gain traction in that core target market, there's no way it's going to succeed elsewhere. This is what happens when companies launch formats primarily to sell unpopular stock.
I appreciate your insight, I wish more people could see your comment. I worry about fellow players getting taken advantage of financially by being told to buy into frontier. It smells like the vendors and speculators crapped their pants when the new 2 set per block size resulted in vastly increased print runs, and add in shorter rotation and it's easy to pinpoint the hype train for frontier being a result of people trying to offload bulk/rotated cards onto unsuspecting people.
EDIT: I'd like to add to the overall conversation by quoting myself from 2 months ago:
"I believe there is a new format over the horizon that will be introduced by WoTC in about 2 years that will start at Origins. There are a lot of factors that make me suspicious of this.
By the appearance of the increased power level in the KLD block,
the absence of any fetch lands Including and after Origins,
Magic Origins beginning the new 2-set blocks,
paradigm shifts across the board in recent set design,
increased print production/rarity shifts (inventions),
a very recent paradigm shift in Ban/Restrict rulings moving forward....
Basically what I think I'm seeing is WoTC creating the foundation for their own new competitive format over the horizon.
What if we see the enemy fetches printed in MM17 rather than into Standard...? Well the writing is on the walls at that point right? I think it would be a clear sign that they're protecting the new sets from the inclusion of fetches.
When I say protecting new sets I mean everything after Magic Origins because I believe this to be the starting point WoTC will choose for the new format"
I challenge this notion of a "rise in popularity." Article coverage of the format has been virtually nonexistent these past weeks, most of the major events dropped all their Frontier side events after many didn't fire, and even Japanese Frontier tournament attendance is still much lower than it is at Japanese Modern events. I focus on the Japanese attendance issue because this is the target audience for Frontier and many of these events are launched by the company that pushed Frontier in the first place! But when a Sunday Frontier event draws only 16 people and the Modern one is still drawing 38, or 13 for Frontier and 30 for Modern on the same day, that points to some underlying problems. Indeed, in the Hareruya circuit and tracked tournaments, Frontier attendance is about equal to Standard attendance; Modern is still ahead on most days.
If Frontier can't gain traction in that core target market, there's no way it's going to succeed elsewhere. This is what happens when companies launch formats primarily to sell unpopular stock.
I appreciate your insight, I wish more people could see your comment. I worry about fellow players getting taken advantage of financially by being told to buy into frontier. It smells like the vendors and speculators crapped their pants when the new 2 set per block size resulted in vastly increased print runs, and add in shorter rotation and it's easy to pinpoint the hype train for frontier being a result of people trying to offload bulk/rotated cards onto unsuspecting people.
EDIT: I'd like to add to the overall conversation by quoting myself from 2 months ago:
"I believe there is a new format over the horizon that will be introduced by WoTC in about 2 years that will start at Origins. There are a lot of factors that make me suspicious of this.
By the appearance of the increased power level in the KLD block,
the absence of any fetch lands Including and after Origins,
Magic Origins beginning the new 2-set blocks,
paradigm shifts across the board in recent set design,
increased print production/rarity shifts (inventions),
a very recent paradigm shift in Ban/Restrict rulings moving forward....
Basically what I think I'm seeing is WoTC creating the foundation for their own new competitive format over the horizon.
What if we see the enemy fetches printed in MM17 rather than into Standard...? Well the writing is on the walls at that point right? I think it would be a clear sign that they're protecting the new sets from the inclusion of fetches.
When I say protecting new sets I mean everything after Magic Origins because I believe this to be the starting point WoTC will choose for the new format"
It is still out there whether they pick battle for zendikar or origins as the start. BFZ block feels more likely due to the land cycles starting there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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A long time ago existed extended, no not the 4 year super standard that some of you may remember, and no not even the brief 7 year extended that even fewer of you will remember. The format Extended was a format that contained anywhere from 6 to 8 blocks and only rotated once every 3 years. Just like in standard where 3 sets, and a core set, rotate at a time, 3 blocks would rotate at a time.
This is my Modern solution. It gives players of Frontier everything they've ever wanted and no long term problems. Players get a format with slow rotation so for 3 years it feels like an eternal format with cards only being added to it. But it never gets so large and out of control that older cards become too difficult to find or too pricy as in Modern and especially Legacy. And the format never gets stale because everyone will know that rotation is coming so if the format stinks well don't worry because it's only temporary.
So what do you think? Is this the solution to Modern and all non rotating formats?
I think that really for non-rotating formats, we are stuck with the ones that are actually sanctioned for now. the best thing would be for Wizards to take Modern reprints more seriously 'these cards prices have gotten out of hand, they WILL be reprinted at this time in this product'. reprint Goyf in every product with green until it goes way the heck down. same for a whole lot of other staples. the solution is fixing the formats we have, not trying agin and making another go at a format that will die out while Legacy and Vintage take their sweet time dying
That has nothing to do with the avaliable card pool and all to do with it not being a real format. If it became a sanctioned format with any PT or WMC presence it would be solved within two weeks and everyone would be netdecking or losing to optimal lists.
If you want a format where you can actually brew a deck to consistently beat 2/3 of the top decks, you're looking for Legacy. A Legacy variant with all RL cards banned would be the real brewer's paradise.
The main problem here is the price for entering a long-running format. Ideally, most players would like a non-rotating format that matches their own collection (what is pretty much why I will stick with modern, since I really got into MTG with Mirrodin block).
As Melkor mentioned, extended would mostly take players away from standard, not from frontier/modern (at least in the long run). That alone makes it more than unlikely for WOTC to reintroduce this - standard is the main factor that sells their product and they're struggling to keep people interested in it already.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
But I get that players want to add to their decks overtime, that's why I recommend a rotation every 3 years. You build a deck, then add to it over the course of 3 years, that's a lot of sets. Frontier, to me, is a player initiated rotation of Modern. Players want a shake up and are tired of seeing the same decks all the time; well, that's actually called rotation. And as a result of rotation, Wizards doesn't need to ban cards as often since rotation also takes care of that.
I agree that format gets solved quickly when the pros play it but that's true of any format, and would be true of Frontier as well. No RL Legacy is not the answer as that still has the same problem as Modern, which is card availability. Wizards has proven time and time again that they aren't serious about making Modern affordable.
I feel that having a format with a larger card pool and longer periods of time in between rotations, ie once every 3 years, rather than once every year, it could solve a few problems. It will allow people who want to play a larger format, but don't have the option to buy into modern or legacy to have a larger format. Also people who wanna play old standard cards can still do so.
Having a rotation will make it so that the format will get less stale and you won't have to worry as much about older staples being expensive or hard to find
Regardless of format, they will never be able to run a non-rotating format for casual and competitive players if they have to honor secondary market price increases, as it means the company can't adequately answer demands on rotated cards.
The community at large has been pushing back against this for a while, though, so there is hope out there.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
URW PillowFort Stasis (costruction)
modern:
U Taking Turns combo
pauper:
UB Servitor Control
xenob8 : you know you are going to have a bad time when opponent starts with snow covered island
I challenge this notion of a "rise in popularity." Article coverage of the format has been virtually nonexistent these past weeks, most of the major events dropped all their Frontier side events after many didn't fire, and even Japanese Frontier tournament attendance is still much lower than it is at Japanese Modern events. I focus on the Japanese attendance issue because this is the target audience for Frontier and many of these events are launched by the company that pushed Frontier in the first place! But when a Sunday Frontier event draws only 16 people and the Modern one is still drawing 38, or 13 for Frontier and 30 for Modern on the same day, that points to some underlying problems. Indeed, in the Hareruya circuit and tracked tournaments, Frontier attendance is about equal to Standard attendance; Modern is still ahead on most days.
If Frontier can't gain traction in that core target market, there's no way it's going to succeed elsewhere. This is what happens when companies launch formats primarily to sell unpopular stock.
I feel that frontier is kinda similar to how tiny leaders was about 2 years ago, exciting as it was "a new thing" . Tiny Leaders became solved really quickly, as there were realistically only a few leaders that were viable.
in Canada, Frontier was sort of popular in the Toronto area, with Face to Face cashing in on it by hosting events on Sundays and having a few Frontier side events at their opens. Even interest in Toronto has died down there. I'm not saying Frontier was solved as quickly as Tiny Leaders was but interest seemed to last about as long
I appreciate your insight, I wish more people could see your comment. I worry about fellow players getting taken advantage of financially by being told to buy into frontier. It smells like the vendors and speculators crapped their pants when the new 2 set per block size resulted in vastly increased print runs, and add in shorter rotation and it's easy to pinpoint the hype train for frontier being a result of people trying to offload bulk/rotated cards onto unsuspecting people.
EDIT: I'd like to add to the overall conversation by quoting myself from 2 months ago:
"I believe there is a new format over the horizon that will be introduced by WoTC in about 2 years that will start at Origins. There are a lot of factors that make me suspicious of this.
By the appearance of the increased power level in the KLD block,
the absence of any fetch lands Including and after Origins,
Magic Origins beginning the new 2-set blocks,
paradigm shifts across the board in recent set design,
increased print production/rarity shifts (inventions),
a very recent paradigm shift in Ban/Restrict rulings moving forward....
Basically what I think I'm seeing is WoTC creating the foundation for their own new competitive format over the horizon.
What if we see the enemy fetches printed in MM17 rather than into Standard...? Well the writing is on the walls at that point right? I think it would be a clear sign that they're protecting the new sets from the inclusion of fetches.
When I say protecting new sets I mean everything after Magic Origins because I believe this to be the starting point WoTC will choose for the new format"
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/334931-what-is-the-most-pimp-card-deck-youve-seen-or?comment=5361
Commander
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage Grenades! EDHGR
UWSygg's Defense, EDH - Voltron & ControlWU
BUGMimeoplasm EDH ft. Ifnir Cycling-discard comboBUG
WBTeysa, Connoisseur of CullingBW
BWSelenia & Recruiter of the Guard suicice combo EDHWB
UBRWGO-Kagachi - 5 Color Enchantments - EDHUBRWG
It is still out there whether they pick battle for zendikar or origins as the start. BFZ block feels more likely due to the land cycles starting there.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!