The tins aren't supplementary products. They literally are how you get booster packs outside of boxes unless someone is buying through an online retailer who has been breaking down the tins or is selling individual packs from booster boxes. The tins are actually big box store exclusives as well (could be wrong). Also, it isn't a "tin" in the classic sense. Here is an example of what I'm talking about...
Basically, it's two boosters, a pin, and a heavily played tournament card. Wizards and hasbro has literally never done something like this. This is NOT comparable to something like the old tins of MTG like Fire and Lightning or the one with the Avatar of Woe.
Wait, you mean most stores don't sell single MTG booster packs nowadays? Pretty sure the last time I walked into a store you could still buy 4 loose booster packs without having to buy a box or a supplementary product. I also vaguely remembered seeing these "tin" products in non big box stores though (didn't pay much attention to them obviously), so I don't think they're big-box exclusives (someone with a better grasp could clarify this).
Please don't compare the "tins" to the Premium Deck Series (or the Duel Deck ones either), like you said one contains a promo, two boosters and a pin, while the other is literally an entire constructed deck. In my post you quoted I outright said the Gift Boxes are literally the same thing as the "tins", just with the "wrong promos" and "wrong frequency". Why would you compare the Pokemon "tins" with a product that's fundamentally different instead?
To point out how they aren't comparable, which you are confirming. Also, I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. I was referring to the pokemon boosters in my last post, not MTG boosters. They have the individual MTG boosters, just they are in those paper retail sleeve things unless they are third party (eg, box mapped) repacks they like to shove together with the promos. At target you can sometimes get pretty good repack deals, though on MTG. A friend of mine picked up an "instant cube" repack from target that had basically two of the four 2014 commander decks (Guided by Nature and Forged in Stone) along with Blessed vs Cursed and some deck builder repacks for 35 dollars.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
To point out how they aren't comparable, which you are confirming. Also, I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. I was referring to the pokemon boosters in my last post, not MTG boosters. They have the individual MTG boosters, just they are in those paper retail sleeve things unless they are third party (eg, box mapped) repacks they like to shove together with the promos. At target you can sometimes get pretty good repack deals, though on MTG. A friend of mine picked up an "instant cube" repack from target that had basically two of the four 2014 commander decks (Guided by Nature and Forged in Stone) along with Blessed vs Cursed and some deck builder repacks for 35 dollars.
I spent a good couple of posts already pointing MTG has comparable products (Gift Boxes) that can be improved upon to meet these expectations. You didn't have to raise another product that isn't comparable at all (Premium Deck Series), honestly it just made me doubt whether you got my point.
Okay, if you were pointing out that single Pokemon boosters weren't available but MTG boosters were, doesn't that make the "literally are how you get booster packs outside of boxes" logic fall flat for MTG? You can't use that logic for MTG if MTG boosters can be bought outside of boxes. The "promos are terrible, secondary market prices are too high" problems I can understand as a fellow consumer, but to raise an issue that's exclusive to the Pokemon TCG but not MTG just seems off.
Perhaps you're just arguing for a point that you consider all products that have booster packs in them (be it Tins, Mythical Collection boxes and Elite Trainer Boxes for Pokemon / Gift Boxes, Fat Packs and Deckbuilder's toolkit for MTG) are Primary products instead of Secondary ones, but that doesn't matter to my main point - MTG has pretty much the same "type" of products (whether we consider them primary/secondary is not the concern here). It's just the way it's treated like these products don't exist to be improved upon and therefore there is a need to introduce yet another "new" product of essentially the same type that confuses me, because the effort is better off convincing WotC to put better promos into their current products than to "introduce a new product essentially the same as the old one, but with better promos!"
You mean "if they ever integrate a good digital product"? WotC's digital side of things is notoriously godawful.
Yeah, I'm holding hope for the new CEO and their new direction. The problem is we wont see that direction take hold for at least 4 years just as we probably wont see stronger answer cards for standard for at least a year and a half or two years. WoTC and Hasbro are seriously trying to figure out where to take MtG before it tanks because this year was a major shake up on a lot of levels. Modern as an eternal format is basically too steep for newer players to buy into, frontier is a younger format that may or may not attract the audience it needs to stay afloat depending on wizards actions towards it, the popularity of commander proved that the secondary market even for casual cards is extremely volatile, with some of the most expensive "modern legal" cards now being commander cards, and the discontent in standard seems very similar in regards to Caw Blade.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
A product called 'Standard All-Stars', it released quarterly, at a MSRP of $19.99.
It contains:
. 8 Rare or Mythic Rare cards. 2 copies of 4 unique tournament cards chosen from a recent Pro Tour event.
. Booklet containing information on the lore and design/development of the included cards.
. Bio Cards for each artist of the included cards.
A product called 'Standard All-Stars', it released quarterly, at a MSRP of $19.99.
It contains:
. 8 Rare or Mythic Rare cards. 2 copies of 4 unique tournament cards chosen from a recent Pro Tour event.
. Booklet containing information on the lore and design/development of the included cards.
. Bio Cards for each artist of the included cards.
So basically an extra FTV? I'm guessing you want this to be an unlimited print run? I mean, the discussion is based off of not considering any inherent value in having the secondary market. This seems unlikely, as WotC profits from the fact that the secondary market exists, even if they don't directly profit as part of it.
In general, the place to put promo singles of tournament cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar would be in the combination packs of big box retailers, so basically like the Mythical Collections mentioned earlier. I don't think a FTV style product would sell well in a big box store since the majority of people who would buy from the store wouldn't see the value. They tend to go by what gives the most cards, so it would be boosters and pre-con decks over a FTV.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern is not too steep, you really need to stop that line. $500-$700 is nothing to jump into a hobby.
Also, in one of those fat packs or whatever, I pulled 2 Torrential Gearhulk are they good? Dont know.
How much does a reasonable set of golf clubs and a season's worth of balls and tee times cost? Feel free to adjust for the potential benefit to your career.
Modern is not too steep, you really need to stop that line. $500-$700 is nothing to jump into a hobby.
Also, in one of those fat packs or whatever, I pulled 2 Torrential Gearhulk are they good? Dont know.
How much does a reasonable set of golf clubs and a season's worth of balls and tee times cost? Feel free to adjust for the potential benefit to your career.
Great question, looks like $500+ for just the irons, so yeah.
In general, the place to put promo singles of tournament cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar would be in the combination packs of big box retailers, so basically like the Mythical Collections mentioned earlier. I don't think a FTV style product would sell well in a big box store since the majority of people who would buy from the store wouldn't see the value. They tend to go by what gives the most cards, so it would be boosters and pre-con decks over a FTV.
Putting stuff like this for sale at big box store would just mean that the first person to get there after the product went on the shelf would buy out everything with any value to it. That's already the case at plenty of big box stores. While the average Walmart/Target customer might not know anything about M:tg card values, there are more than enough players/collectors who know exactly what is available at these stores. How quickly did these stores sell out of BFZ and OGW fat packs or Origins clash packs (the one with Collected Company)?
In general, the place to put promo singles of tournament cards like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar would be in the combination packs of big box retailers, so basically like the Mythical Collections mentioned earlier. I don't think a FTV style product would sell well in a big box store since the majority of people who would buy from the store wouldn't see the value. They tend to go by what gives the most cards, so it would be boosters and pre-con decks over a FTV.
Putting stuff like this for sale at big box store would just mean that the first person to get there after the product went on the shelf would buy out everything with any value to it. That's already the case at plenty of big box stores. While the average Walmart/Target customer might not know anything about M:tg card values, there are more than enough players/collectors who know exactly what is available at these stores. How quickly did these stores sell out of BFZ and OGW fat packs or Origins clash packs (the one with Collected Company)?
That sort of depended on the Area. No one at my LGS knew that Meijer was carrying any clash packs, and walmart kept restocking when they did get bought out so the packs just kept flowing. The real problem at big box stores are commander decks because of how they are distributed in sets, so if one sells really well then the others languish until taken down and repacked.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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To point out how they aren't comparable, which you are confirming. Also, I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. I was referring to the pokemon boosters in my last post, not MTG boosters. They have the individual MTG boosters, just they are in those paper retail sleeve things unless they are third party (eg, box mapped) repacks they like to shove together with the promos. At target you can sometimes get pretty good repack deals, though on MTG. A friend of mine picked up an "instant cube" repack from target that had basically two of the four 2014 commander decks (Guided by Nature and Forged in Stone) along with Blessed vs Cursed and some deck builder repacks for 35 dollars.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I spent a good couple of posts already pointing MTG has comparable products (Gift Boxes) that can be improved upon to meet these expectations. You didn't have to raise another product that isn't comparable at all (Premium Deck Series), honestly it just made me doubt whether you got my point.
Okay, if you were pointing out that single Pokemon boosters weren't available but MTG boosters were, doesn't that make the "literally are how you get booster packs outside of boxes" logic fall flat for MTG? You can't use that logic for MTG if MTG boosters can be bought outside of boxes. The "promos are terrible, secondary market prices are too high" problems I can understand as a fellow consumer, but to raise an issue that's exclusive to the Pokemon TCG but not MTG just seems off.
Perhaps you're just arguing for a point that you consider all products that have booster packs in them (be it Tins, Mythical Collection boxes and Elite Trainer Boxes for Pokemon / Gift Boxes, Fat Packs and Deckbuilder's toolkit for MTG) are Primary products instead of Secondary ones, but that doesn't matter to my main point - MTG has pretty much the same "type" of products (whether we consider them primary/secondary is not the concern here). It's just the way it's treated like these products don't exist to be improved upon and therefore there is a need to introduce yet another "new" product of essentially the same type that confuses me, because the effort is better off convincing WotC to put better promos into their current products than to "introduce a new product essentially the same as the old one, but with better promos!"
You mean "if they ever integrate a good digital product"? WotC's digital side of things is notoriously godawful.
Yeah, I'm holding hope for the new CEO and their new direction. The problem is we wont see that direction take hold for at least 4 years just as we probably wont see stronger answer cards for standard for at least a year and a half or two years. WoTC and Hasbro are seriously trying to figure out where to take MtG before it tanks because this year was a major shake up on a lot of levels. Modern as an eternal format is basically too steep for newer players to buy into, frontier is a younger format that may or may not attract the audience it needs to stay afloat depending on wizards actions towards it, the popularity of commander proved that the secondary market even for casual cards is extremely volatile, with some of the most expensive "modern legal" cards now being commander cards, and the discontent in standard seems very similar in regards to Caw Blade.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Also, in one of those fat packs or whatever, I pulled 2 Torrential Gearhulk are they good? Dont know.
Spirits
In terms of other non-40k tabletop hobbies, it absolutely is.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
(And yeah, I played 40K, so to me its not too steep :D)
Spirits
A product called 'Standard All-Stars', it released quarterly, at a MSRP of $19.99.
It contains:
. 8 Rare or Mythic Rare cards. 2 copies of 4 unique tournament cards chosen from a recent Pro Tour event.
. Booklet containing information on the lore and design/development of the included cards.
. Bio Cards for each artist of the included cards.
So basically an extra FTV? I'm guessing you want this to be an unlimited print run? I mean, the discussion is based off of not considering any inherent value in having the secondary market. This seems unlikely, as WotC profits from the fact that the secondary market exists, even if they don't directly profit as part of it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
How much does a reasonable set of golf clubs and a season's worth of balls and tee times cost? Feel free to adjust for the potential benefit to your career.
Great question, looks like $500+ for just the irons, so yeah.
Spirits
Oh yes, I'm sure this is the year. Just like every other hobby thats been doomed for years.
Spirits
Putting stuff like this for sale at big box store would just mean that the first person to get there after the product went on the shelf would buy out everything with any value to it. That's already the case at plenty of big box stores. While the average Walmart/Target customer might not know anything about M:tg card values, there are more than enough players/collectors who know exactly what is available at these stores. How quickly did these stores sell out of BFZ and OGW fat packs or Origins clash packs (the one with Collected Company)?
That sort of depended on the Area. No one at my LGS knew that Meijer was carrying any clash packs, and walmart kept restocking when they did get bought out so the packs just kept flowing. The real problem at big box stores are commander decks because of how they are distributed in sets, so if one sells really well then the others languish until taken down and repacked.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!