Greetings, MTG players,
Has anyone ever been beaten by their own deck?
Today I attended a single elimination, regular REL, "last chance qualifier" for a big annual event hosted by my LGS. We needed 8 to fire the qualifier as sanctioned event, but only had 7. The big event is being held tomorrow and the 32 qualified players are guaranteed $100, with the 8 top players receiving prized ranging $200-$700 for first place...so obviously, I really wanted to qualify.
A store employee asked if anyone had a standard deck he could borrow so we could fire the event. I thought I would be a nice, and loaned him my deck, under the impression that he was just playing to fire a sanctioned event with a nice, even 8 players.
I won my first round and in the 2nd round, I was paired against the employee who borrowed my deck. I said something to the effect, "Well, this is awkward" at the start of the round. After 2 games, he handily defeated me. I was hoping he would still give me the win since he was using my deck, and after the match, I briefly discussed my desire to move on and asked if he intended to go to the big event the following day. I sorta asked if I could have the win, but he chose to take the win and moved on to the finals, where he lost.
On the bright side, I still got 26 packs, but felt pretty bummed that I didn't get to qualify for the big event.
Later, I went home and told one of my friends (who is a kitchen table only guy) how I was beat by a store employee using my deck. He didn’t think the situation was handled appropriately, given that the person was an employee of the store hosting the event, and only volunteered to make it sanctioned.
So, I know competitive players loan decks to each other all the time. I also know competitive REL events are very picky when it comes to "asking" for a match result at the start of the match.
Should it have been expected that the store employee concede? Is it appropriate to ask people to concede if they face against you with your own deck?
I’m interested in your thoughts
At my lsg, when this happens (which does for draft more than anything else), the store employee will usually play out the match, and then if they would win, right before lethal is dealt they concede.
On one hand, that is pretty disappointing because he was only playing to get the event to fire, and I understand why you would feel that it's unfair.
But on the other, I can see why you weren't just given the win. Firstly, it would have been unfair to the other players for you to be given a "free" win just because you played against the store employee using your own deck. I like that the employee played seriously to make the matches fair. And it's also a competition for money, and at the end of the day you didn't win enough matches to qualify. You even had an advantage in that match becauseit was your deck, you already knew exactly what cards were in there.
I think the employee should have announced at the beginning that he would be competing as if he was a "real player" to make everything fair, so that there wouldn't be any confusion later on.
OP, I understand the sour grapes, but I believe you're incorrect here. It sounds like the person to whom you loaned the deck earned the win. I don't think he's under any obligation to concede, unless of course, it was discussed beforehand.
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From my perspective it's difficult to sympathize with you, nor do I think that player should give you any portion of the win you didn't earn despite the facts that he was using your deck to beat you with. The fact that he's an employee isn't particularly relevant beyond the fact that his decision left you (and possibly others who frequent that store) with a bad taste, which will presumably lead to future distrust and potential hostility. Logically, the only exception where you might be entitled to a portion of his winnings would be if such a reward was previously discussed and agreed upon, which would obviously be collusion and a breach of tournament rules if I'm not mistaken, unless for some unforeseen reason those conditions were also made aware to and agreed upon by all other players involved before the start of the event which is unlikely.
Suffice it to say that if such an agreement wasn't openly known in advance, I was another player involved in the tournament, and I discovered during or after the event that you had an unfair advantage because your incentive or intention (but not simply hope) to lend another player a deck of yours for the event was such that if and when he won said event, you would be compensated for having given him the tools with which to claim victory, I would strongly object and complain to the store owner, and possibly the DCI. Truthfully, it would be no different than two or more friends playing at the same poker table with an aforementioned agreement between them (but unbeknownst to others playing) that they wouldn't call each others raises to minimize losses and better manipulate chip stacks for optimized positional play, then split any winnings after. Such a situation in a Magic tournament (especially one with fewer participants) is not only ethically wrong and ruins the fun of everyone having a "fair and equal chance" (not because their decks and/or skill levels are necessarily of even strength, but because there is only one deck per individual entered in the event), it should be grounds for a cheating / unsportmanlike conduct disqualification.
Either way, at least you won some packs so you didn't leave empty-handed.
More importantly, you earned a valuable lesson and an important learning experience when it comes to helping your competition.
Just remember that regardless of the official rules enforcement level at the particular event, any sanctioned competitive tournament with prizes is essentially a series of fights to the death where the only last man or woman standing is the victor (at least in the minds of Spike players). In such battles you must always choose your weapons carefully, so when a potential opponent asks you to borrow your weapons and you generously volunteer that which they request to aid their cause, you have to accept the consequences if and when you're defeated. That being said, nobility, honor, and good intentions aside, if you didn't have complete confidence to beat the deck you were lending to another competitor with the deck you were using, you should never have lent him that deck to being with. After all, it was never your responsibility to do so, and presumably as an employee of the store, he could have easily thrown together a temporary deck with the cards he undoubtedly had access to in the showcase which were readily available at his disposal.
On a side note... I personally hate it when store employees who are on duty enter events they're hosting or judging (often because they're too bored and/or don't feel like working) because I believe it often creates a conflict of interest, especially when they build decks with cards the store owns which technically they don't since it gives them an unfair advantage over those among us who actually spent the time and money required (or apparently not in some cases) to buy and/or trade for the expensive individual game pieces we want to play with as opposed to doing so at our employers' or someone else's expense. Alas, even if I had multiple decks with me at an event to lend my competition, I'd still rather they borrow cards from the store than beat me with my own brews so the potential defeat I suffer is less painful and frustrating.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
I frequently lend out my EDH decks to people in my league, and frequently play against those people. Hell, last week I had a 4-player game where every deck was one of mine!
People beat me with my own decks all the time, but I play EDH pretty much exclusively (I wouldn't need a qualifier if not for the odd pre-release I attend) and there's never anything on the line, so I mind about as much as I normally do: very little, provided it was a game where I got to actually do stuff. I don't build decks I wouldn't want to play against as a general rule, so there's a cap on how mad someone else piloting them can possibly make me.
Yeah sorry to say but I think OP is certainly in the wrong;
If you're in an eight man event where you represent one of the players and then another player (the store owner) represents a pre-determined guaranteed win for you, that's a stupid advantage. If I were one of the other six I'd be absolutely steamed and would probably demand some kind of refund/recompense for having my time wasted by an event so clearly stacked one way.
I get the argument of it being an employee (therefore having a stake in the tournament and not being objective) and it being your deck (personal opinion that has zero bearing whatsoever but I understand these days people want to be cashed out for good behaviour) but losing in the second round is losing in the second round. You get paid out for your performance and your performance only. I'd see the reasoning in it if the employee took his prize pool and split it amongst the participants but even then, he got all the way to the finals with a deck he wasn't even familiar with - if that isn't enough to earn what he won, what is?
Happens frequently at my modern tournaments. I have 12 modern decks now and I know most of the people quite well at my events. One tournament a couple months ago, half of the participants were using my decks. I always like to think of it win or lose, I win. My decks also frequently win the modern events if I loan them out so they are seen as a good luck charm.
Regardless of who the deck belongs to, its the player who goes forward and whilst it was someone who worked at the store I dont think that should change their decision.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
If you loan out a deck, you definitely should not be expecting (or asking) for a concession on those grounds. If the person borrowing the deck decides to scoop, that's fine and that's on them. Loaning out decks happens a ton in the main constructed format I play (Legacy), since the people who have decks often have multiple and the community tends to come together to make sure everyone gets to play. This doesn't really work if there's an expectation that you will be granted wins by the three other players piloting your cards in the event. It sucks to lose to your loaner, but losing to your loaner is a hell of a lot better than not playing at all.
Now, the other issue is that this was a store employee. In most stores I've been to, there's been a kind status quo (either by etiquette or time commitment, it's unclear) that when they hop in to help fire an event that they'll be in for a round or two and then drop, maybe conceding the last round that they play. I don't think you can count on it though, and I don't fault the employee at all for continuing to compete rather than concede/drop.
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Has anyone ever been beaten by their own deck?
Today I attended a single elimination, regular REL, "last chance qualifier" for a big annual event hosted by my LGS. We needed 8 to fire the qualifier as sanctioned event, but only had 7. The big event is being held tomorrow and the 32 qualified players are guaranteed $100, with the 8 top players receiving prized ranging $200-$700 for first place...so obviously, I really wanted to qualify.
A store employee asked if anyone had a standard deck he could borrow so we could fire the event. I thought I would be a nice, and loaned him my deck, under the impression that he was just playing to fire a sanctioned event with a nice, even 8 players.
I won my first round and in the 2nd round, I was paired against the employee who borrowed my deck. I said something to the effect, "Well, this is awkward" at the start of the round. After 2 games, he handily defeated me. I was hoping he would still give me the win since he was using my deck, and after the match, I briefly discussed my desire to move on and asked if he intended to go to the big event the following day. I sorta asked if I could have the win, but he chose to take the win and moved on to the finals, where he lost.
On the bright side, I still got 26 packs, but felt pretty bummed that I didn't get to qualify for the big event.
Later, I went home and told one of my friends (who is a kitchen table only guy) how I was beat by a store employee using my deck. He didn’t think the situation was handled appropriately, given that the person was an employee of the store hosting the event, and only volunteered to make it sanctioned.
So, I know competitive players loan decks to each other all the time. I also know competitive REL events are very picky when it comes to "asking" for a match result at the start of the match.
Should it have been expected that the store employee concede? Is it appropriate to ask people to concede if they face against you with your own deck?
I’m interested in your thoughts
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=409478
But on the other, I can see why you weren't just given the win. Firstly, it would have been unfair to the other players for you to be given a "free" win just because you played against the store employee using your own deck. I like that the employee played seriously to make the matches fair. And it's also a competition for money, and at the end of the day you didn't win enough matches to qualify. You even had an advantage in that match becauseit was your deck, you already knew exactly what cards were in there.
I think the employee should have announced at the beginning that he would be competing as if he was a "real player" to make everything fair, so that there wouldn't be any confusion later on.
My 720 Peasant Cube
Suffice it to say that if such an agreement wasn't openly known in advance, I was another player involved in the tournament, and I discovered during or after the event that you had an unfair advantage because your incentive or intention (but not simply hope) to lend another player a deck of yours for the event was such that if and when he won said event, you would be compensated for having given him the tools with which to claim victory, I would strongly object and complain to the store owner, and possibly the DCI. Truthfully, it would be no different than two or more friends playing at the same poker table with an aforementioned agreement between them (but unbeknownst to others playing) that they wouldn't call each others raises to minimize losses and better manipulate chip stacks for optimized positional play, then split any winnings after. Such a situation in a Magic tournament (especially one with fewer participants) is not only ethically wrong and ruins the fun of everyone having a "fair and equal chance" (not because their decks and/or skill levels are necessarily of even strength, but because there is only one deck per individual entered in the event), it should be grounds for a cheating / unsportmanlike conduct disqualification.
Either way, at least you won some packs so you didn't leave empty-handed.
More importantly, you earned a valuable lesson and an important learning experience when it comes to helping your competition.
Just remember that regardless of the official rules enforcement level at the particular event, any sanctioned competitive tournament with prizes is essentially a series of fights to the death where the only last man or woman standing is the victor (at least in the minds of Spike players). In such battles you must always choose your weapons carefully, so when a potential opponent asks you to borrow your weapons and you generously volunteer that which they request to aid their cause, you have to accept the consequences if and when you're defeated. That being said, nobility, honor, and good intentions aside, if you didn't have complete confidence to beat the deck you were lending to another competitor with the deck you were using, you should never have lent him that deck to being with. After all, it was never your responsibility to do so, and presumably as an employee of the store, he could have easily thrown together a temporary deck with the cards he undoubtedly had access to in the showcase which were readily available at his disposal.
On a side note... I personally hate it when store employees who are on duty enter events they're hosting or judging (often because they're too bored and/or don't feel like working) because I believe it often creates a conflict of interest, especially when they build decks with cards the store owns which technically they don't since it gives them an unfair advantage over those among us who actually spent the time and money required (or apparently not in some cases) to buy and/or trade for the expensive individual game pieces we want to play with as opposed to doing so at our employers' or someone else's expense. Alas, even if I had multiple decks with me at an event to lend my competition, I'd still rather they borrow cards from the store than beat me with my own brews so the potential defeat I suffer is less painful and frustrating.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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If you're in an eight man event where you represent one of the players and then another player (the store owner) represents a pre-determined guaranteed win for you, that's a stupid advantage. If I were one of the other six I'd be absolutely steamed and would probably demand some kind of refund/recompense for having my time wasted by an event so clearly stacked one way.
I get the argument of it being an employee (therefore having a stake in the tournament and not being objective) and it being your deck (personal opinion that has zero bearing whatsoever but I understand these days people want to be cashed out for good behaviour) but losing in the second round is losing in the second round. You get paid out for your performance and your performance only. I'd see the reasoning in it if the employee took his prize pool and split it amongst the participants but even then, he got all the way to the finals with a deck he wasn't even familiar with - if that isn't enough to earn what he won, what is?
To directly respond to your queries; no and no
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
If you loan out a deck, you definitely should not be expecting (or asking) for a concession on those grounds. If the person borrowing the deck decides to scoop, that's fine and that's on them. Loaning out decks happens a ton in the main constructed format I play (Legacy), since the people who have decks often have multiple and the community tends to come together to make sure everyone gets to play. This doesn't really work if there's an expectation that you will be granted wins by the three other players piloting your cards in the event. It sucks to lose to your loaner, but losing to your loaner is a hell of a lot better than not playing at all.
Now, the other issue is that this was a store employee. In most stores I've been to, there's been a kind status quo (either by etiquette or time commitment, it's unclear) that when they hop in to help fire an event that they'll be in for a round or two and then drop, maybe conceding the last round that they play. I don't think you can count on it though, and I don't fault the employee at all for continuing to compete rather than concede/drop.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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