As a general rule, all other things being equal, which is a better mechanic for a creature to have - first strike or trample? I am thinking first strike but maybe I'm wrong.
As a general rule, all other things being equal, which is a better mechanic for a creature to have - first strike or trample? I am thinking first strike but maybe I'm wrong.
Thanks,
-commodore-
Super, super conditional. The answer is going to be significantly different depending on any number of factors. You can't just hand wave them away with "all other things being equal" because the other things are what determine the answer. Size, cost, other abilities, color, and format can all be relevant to this question. French vanilla 2/2 first strike creatures are playable in some formats, 2/2 tramplers are almost universally a joke.
Ignoring most of that and speaking from a primarily EDH standpoint, I would rather have trample almost all of the time. First strike occasionally keeps a creature alive in creature combat. Trample makes it easier to kill your opponent.
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I'd almost always take a first striker, as they tend to trade more favourably with other creatures. Having said that, it is very subjective - and in an aggressive deck that wants to get damage through fast i'd be tempted to go with trample.
depends on stats. FS is always my preference on small creatures that will be at risk in Modern (anything below or at 4 toughness), while unless a big expensive finsher has some huge ability, I don't look without trample
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The only times I would say first strike is inherently superior to trample is if
a) the creature with it also has vigilance and/or deathtouch
b) you're playing a powered-down limited format since some combat tricks (ie: coordinated assault, swift justice, etc) can swing the momentum of a game quite significantly on an unsuspecting opponent. After all, what good is attacking with a trampler when it's blocked by something which has first strike, and consequently can't survive long enough to reciprocate damage to the creature and it's controller?
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
Thanks everyone. That does help give me some ideas. Seems from the replies like trample is generally better but first-strike has its uses early on in the game. I am by no means a competitive player. I like collecting the cards and I have some decks put together, but they would have about as much chance to win a tournament as I do to win the lottery.
Don't get discouraged. Winning isn't everything so long as you're having fun and expressing yourself through your play style and deck building.
Furthermore, even if some individual cards or abilities inherently are (or generally seem) stronger in a vacuum (if only in particular formats), there's strength in numbers and creativity, so the right combinations of cards or abilities can often lead to better results in the right context.
In any event, if you like both abilities and don't want to compromise by excluding either from your deck(s), consider these cards which all have trample and first strike, or grant both abilities to one or more creatures you control.
In fact, Runes of the Deus is one of my favorite auras in Uril, The Miststalker.
Anyhow, the best I can come up with myself is a game in the top 8 of a PTQ back during Urza block in which we were starting game 3 with time already expired, so the tiebreaker rule was that whoever had more life after 3 turns would win. And I lost to... healing salve.
Super, super conditional. The answer is going to be significantly different depending on any number of factors. You can't just hand wave them away with "all other things being equal" because the other things are what determine the answer. Size, cost, other abilities, color, and format can all be relevant to this question. French vanilla 2/2 first strike creatures are playable in some formats, 2/2 tramplers are almost universally a joke.
The deck's goal matters too. Simplistically, a control deck is more likely to sit back and want blockers hat trade up, while an aggro deck wants to get the damage in quickly as possible.
Thanks everyone. That does help give me some ideas. Seems from the replies like trample is generally better but first-strike has its uses early on in the game. I am by no means a competitive player. I like collecting the cards and I have some decks put together, but they would have about as much chance to win a tournament as I do to win the lottery.
You never know, actually. I play pretty much one Standard deck per set cycle, and while the times I've used an established archetype I've been more consistent overall, the only two times I've won an FNM outright were with my own creations that were cobbled together. Sometimes all you need are some good breaks and the right matchup, and you can have a pretty good night.
As far as your question in the OP, I think the best thing to do is figure out what you actually want to do with your deck. If you 'd rather control the board, First Strike is probably your best bet. If you'd rather just run the hell over everything, then trample.
Oh no please don't misunderstand...not discouraged at all. I've never actually played in a tournament. You can see some of my decks here: http://billwall.phpwebhosting.com/thomas/articles/magicdecks.htm. I haven't updated these for some minor changes I've made, but these sort of represent the kind of decks I like to build. So my initial question was pertaining to my Dragon deck; I took out the Shivan Dragons and Skirk Prospectors and put in Archetype of Aggression and Monastery Swiftspear, and also added Madcap Skills for a little more up front damage (that was recommended to me by a guy I met at our local Magic Shop). But I do want to get a couple of Shivans in there (because it's one of my favorite cards), so wondering do I take out Archteype or Bloodmark Mentor, or leave 3 of each and put in 2 Shivans, etc. My decks are really more like collections of cards than real tournament decks. They probably wouldn't even be legal because I don't pay any attention to standard blocks and sets and all that. I have been playing off and on since 1996 so when I started the best cards were Serra Angels and Shivan Dragons.
Thanks for the suggestions on the cards - I like that Chariot of Victory.
I like smaller creatures with first strike, and larger creatures with trample. Small tramplers are rarely effective, while large creatures rarely get the full benefit out of first strike, aside from EDH battles where you can force a ton of blockers onto one first striker if they really want it dead.
First strike lets you fight as long as you are on curve. When you attack and they block, their blocker dies. If they double block, your attacker dies. The second place where first strike is good is on the defensive, where multiple first strike creatures makes attacking difficult as you trade resources favorable over several turns.
A good example of an exelent first strike creature is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She screws with your opponents plan and she is often big enough to fight other creatures in those periods of the game. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is another creature that is good with first strike. Enemies creatures that enter tapped means they have problems double blocking your first striker.
When it comes to trample they often comes in two forms: A high attack lov thoughnes creature. These creatures are often like an odd burn spell that the opponent needs to kill. Good if you are ahead, bad if you are not winning. A card like Rancor means any creature you draw chips away at your opponents life total, often garanteing a winn. (Note spot removal in response to the rancor being played often stops this as Rancor is countered when it has no legal targets and does not come back to your hand.) Also similar to your Loxodon Warhammer in your 'Kitty deck'. Lifelink means it is hard to race you.
The other form of trample creature is one who has big attack and big defense. These are must awser threats that must be awnsered. Often this makes a loose loose for your opponent as they must awnser it, and if they do not they take enough damage for you to winn. This are often green creatures. The premium examples are Siege Rhino or Arborback Stomper
Also, big creatures with first strike is a bit of a waste. Depending on the match they often get 'chump blocked' by throwing a smaller creature in front. Tradisionally big creatures with first strike often underperform. Baneslayer Angel comes to mind, and as impressive as she is she rarly se much action. First strike does have some interesting aspects when combined with other abilaties. Like Phyrexian Crusader and Glissa, the Traitor .
From the decks you have it seems like you do not have a lot of green decks. I would recomend trying to build some decks with green tample creatures and Bow of Nylea as this feels wonderfull. Any damage from a creature with deathtouch is lethal damage, and trample lets you deal damage after you deal lethal damage.
Instead of asking youtself this question, you should start narrowind down to what color you'll want to play and what archetype.... the rest should follow on its own as you re more likely to find trample in big green creature and first strike on smaller white creature
I like first strike a lot better. To be fair, I play only aggro decks. There are some big green (as mentioned) with trample that beat me in the late game. But find me a decent card with trample and a CMC 3 or less? I'm sure somebody can come up with one, but in an aggro deck, FS is king! Another good use of FS is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I use this currently in two aggro decks. Lets you hit home with flying/fs, then put counters on all your attackers before regular damage even happens. This is just soooo nice in an aggro deck. It makes me feel good even thinking about it!
I like first strike a lot better. To be fair, I play only aggro decks. There are some big green (as mentioned) with trample that beat me in the late game. But find me a decent card with trample and a CMC 3 or less? I'm sure somebody can come up with one, but in an aggro deck, FS is king! Another good use of FS is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I use this currently in two aggro decks. Lets you hit home with flying/fs, then put counters on all your attackers before regular damage even happens. This is just soooo nice in an aggro deck. It makes me feel good even thinking about it!
Grim Flayer trumps anything 3 CMC or less in standard right now.
Also in aggro, haste and/or flying is king. First strike is only good in aggro if it's against opposing aggro.
Thanks,
-commodore-
Ignoring most of that and speaking from a primarily EDH standpoint, I would rather have trample almost all of the time. First strike occasionally keeps a creature alive in creature combat. Trample makes it easier to kill your opponent.
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Agreed. To my knowledge, nobody in the history of competitive Magic has ever played Boros Recruit, hope charm, lance (or even hyena umbra and ethereal armor outside of Uril).
However, both berserk and rancor at the same CMC have proven themselves to be good cards.
Overrun, overwhelming stampede, and Craterhoof Behemoth are also all viable finishers, and even Kessig Wolf Run deserves consideration in almost any deck whose color identity can support it.
Need I say more?
The only times I would say first strike is inherently superior to trample is if
a) the creature with it also has vigilance and/or deathtouch
b) you're playing a powered-down limited format since some combat tricks (ie: coordinated assault, swift justice, etc) can swing the momentum of a game quite significantly on an unsuspecting opponent. After all, what good is attacking with a trampler when it's blocked by something which has first strike, and consequently can't survive long enough to reciprocate damage to the creature and it's controller?
Furthermore, even if some individual cards or abilities inherently are (or generally seem) stronger in a vacuum (if only in particular formats), there's strength in numbers and creativity, so the right combinations of cards or abilities can often lead to better results in the right context.
In any event, if you like both abilities and don't want to compromise by excluding either from your deck(s), consider these cards which all have trample and first strike, or grant both abilities to one or more creatures you control.
In fact, Runes of the Deus is one of my favorite auras in Uril, The Miststalker.
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You never know, actually. I play pretty much one Standard deck per set cycle, and while the times I've used an established archetype I've been more consistent overall, the only two times I've won an FNM outright were with my own creations that were cobbled together. Sometimes all you need are some good breaks and the right matchup, and you can have a pretty good night.
As far as your question in the OP, I think the best thing to do is figure out what you actually want to do with your deck. If you 'd rather control the board, First Strike is probably your best bet. If you'd rather just run the hell over everything, then trample.
Thanks for the suggestions on the cards - I like that Chariot of Victory.
First strike lets you fight as long as you are on curve. When you attack and they block, their blocker dies. If they double block, your attacker dies. The second place where first strike is good is on the defensive, where multiple first strike creatures makes attacking difficult as you trade resources favorable over several turns.
A good example of an exelent first strike creature is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She screws with your opponents plan and she is often big enough to fight other creatures in those periods of the game. Thalia, Heretic Cathar is another creature that is good with first strike. Enemies creatures that enter tapped means they have problems double blocking your first striker.
When it comes to trample they often comes in two forms: A high attack lov thoughnes creature. These creatures are often like an odd burn spell that the opponent needs to kill. Good if you are ahead, bad if you are not winning. A card like Rancor means any creature you draw chips away at your opponents life total, often garanteing a winn. (Note spot removal in response to the rancor being played often stops this as Rancor is countered when it has no legal targets and does not come back to your hand.) Also similar to your Loxodon Warhammer in your 'Kitty deck'. Lifelink means it is hard to race you.
The other form of trample creature is one who has big attack and big defense. These are must awser threats that must be awnsered. Often this makes a loose loose for your opponent as they must awnser it, and if they do not they take enough damage for you to winn. This are often green creatures. The premium examples are Siege Rhino or Arborback Stomper
Also, big creatures with first strike is a bit of a waste. Depending on the match they often get 'chump blocked' by throwing a smaller creature in front. Tradisionally big creatures with first strike often underperform. Baneslayer Angel comes to mind, and as impressive as she is she rarly se much action. First strike does have some interesting aspects when combined with other abilaties. Like Phyrexian Crusader and Glissa, the Traitor .
From the decks you have it seems like you do not have a lot of green decks. I would recomend trying to build some decks with green tample creatures and Bow of Nylea as this feels wonderfull. Any damage from a creature with deathtouch is lethal damage, and trample lets you deal damage after you deal lethal damage.
Grim Flayer trumps anything 3 CMC or less in standard right now.
Also in aggro, haste and/or flying is king. First strike is only good in aggro if it's against opposing aggro.
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