So first some backstory, I have been playing MTG on and off since I was 15 (2006) and have always gone to the same LGS (that I will not name for the time being) for mainly drafts.
I got out of paper around 2008 because of what I felt was a nasty/toxic game environment that wasn't suited to my casual/fun-oriented motivation for playing MtG. Now bear in mind I wasn't that great back in 2006/2007 but I was learning.
Hopped back in in 2012 and again soon dropped out of paper due to the toxicity. This is where I started playing MTGO and have not stopped until very recently when I felt that I had improved enough as a casual player as well as being a 25-year old man, to be immune to the crappy attitudes and condescending tones that I was greeted with in the past.
Problem is it only takes one or two people to completely ruin your mood and thus your fun.
Played draft last night and tonight, 4 rounds each, went 1-3 last night (5 game wins, 6 game losses) and 2-2 tonight (4 wins, 4 losses). Not amazing records and I am a tad rusty in a few areas (MTGO assistance spoiled me maybe) but both nights I had a game with someone who absolutely sapped any and all fun out of the game and left me feeling frustrated and disappointed.
First problem guy was my last match Thurs night, lost to him 2-1. This guy was somewhat dickish but mostly I was annoyed with how he conducted the last game of a $10 no-prize draft...he was condescending and rushing me along, treating me like an idiot for blocking decisions only be surprised by a combat trick. He would draw (but not look) a card during my 2nd main...like relax I'm not done yet...Offered zero communication other than absolutely necessary and finally after winning he didn't offer a single word or extend his hand. I suppose I could have said something to him but after playing 3 games with this guy I could tell what kind a person he was. I just got up and left. It rubbed me the wrong way and I was really upset at being treated like a child by someone who probably felt that in this gaming store he belonged to some elite caste or something.
I was considering why I left paper in the first place and reminding myself that these kinds of people will always make up some of the paper community but I decided to give Friday night draft a shot...after all maybe I was overeating....
Well my first opponent of the night completely convinced me that paper Magic is simply not for me. I beat this sore loser 2-0 and I have have never felt such a bitter taste over such a clean victory. This guy was a prick, no question. Not only did he display the same unsubstantiated hubris as the other guy I played with but he was actually overtly rude. He would act like a mime who couldn't speak most of the time. As if he was playing by himself. When he scooped without saying a single word in game 1 I was surprised (board state was cluttered, he only had 1 card in his library but I didn't notice) he remarked "You look confused." in an incredibly condescending prickish way that demonstrated the salt and butthurt of losing to some guy he has never seen around the shop before. He flicked my enchantment cards off his field like they and I were utter pieces of garbage. I didn't say a word.
Game two really did it for me though, during one of the final combat phases I casually asked if he had any flyers (simple yes or no question)...he looked blankly at me and I repeated my question. He simply spread his cards out, not saying anything and gave a "what do you think" expression. At this point I simply said "or you can just answer the question." and left it at that. I offered my had to this guy who game the quickest, briefest touch, hardly a shake knowing that to outright refuse would be too ridiculous even for him. He left me feeling like he didn't think I deserved to win or even that I was a worthy opponent.
I went on to play 3 pleasant opponents and ended 2-2. Problem is I don't want to come back to this store and get paired again with those certain characters again. I play to have fun and challenge my brain, not challenge my patience.
MTGO never has me feeling like a an outsider/noob/etc no matter how good or bad the event goes.
Some have mentioned to me that the store I go to (live very close to) is THE most competitive store in the city and that more casual stores are a less toxic environment but honestly the "Pro Bros" culture really didn't impress me at all.
TL DR: Had two opponents with crap attitudes in two nights and I feel exhausted and disappointed with paper MtG.
Am I being too sensitive or can people relate to what I've described?
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He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
You're being too sensitive if not overreacting a bit to negative aspects of your experiences, and if you think you're not going to have this issue at other stores or that the cold anonymity of silent opponents on MTGO are better, you're only fooling yourself. It's also a perspective problem.
The long-winded response:
Let me start out by quoting Captain Jack Sparrow - "The problem isn't the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem."
I see the word "toxicity" slung around like condoms at a Pride Parade these days, and it's getting kind of trite. The moment someone has a remotely negative experience, the "toxicity" card is whipped out of the deck like some sort of crowdsourced validation for being upset, angry or aggitated because of a human experience. You go to a store and play 4 or 5 rounds of Magic, have two opponents who take the game more serious than you do and suddenly you're "disappointed" and "exhausted" from paper MTG and suddenly forget the other opponents who you have pleasant or acceptable matches with, the fun of drafting, the fun of actually playing the game in itself. Now thanks to the most popular buzzword coined on the internet, you can make a blanket statement about the entire paper Magic experience as being "toxic" because instead of choosing to remember the fun or good parts of the night and moving on, you're focused on finding a reason to continue being upset. Two opponents with "crap attitudes" in two nights and suddenly you're "exhausted" and "disappointed" with MTG as a whole is a red flag that the issue isn't the game - it's your lack of willingness to overlook the one opponent either of those nights in favor of what you actually enjoyed.
I play all sorts of people at the two shops I play at. I play overly serious people who act like their play at a prerelease is the most important decision of their life. I play the guys that constantly rapidly flicker cards or talk to try to throw me off, ignore them and play better by not getting flustered. I play the timid player that just build this deck and isn't even sure how it works. I play the casual attitude guy that talks with me throughout the match and we both have a laugh at our misplays. Sometimes, and my favorite, is I get to play the guy that wins SCG IQs and as infuriated as I am during those games when I lose or he's answering everything, I know it's because he's better than I am and after the game we talk for a while about what I could have done and I learn something. Sometimes I go a bit on tilt when I get to mulligan to 3 on Game 2 after curving out and smashing face Game 1, because variance is a *****. They're all different experiences and different degrees of the experience, but it's up to you how you handle it.
If your opponent is flicking his cards, asking you if you're done, asking you why you did something and that offends you, then stop being offended and ignore them. You don't have to respond or get aggitated and upset - that reaction is a choice and a choice that only they benefit from. There are going to be *****ty people you play Magic against, just like there's going to be *****ty people in any other aspect of life. You can't avoid it, you can't stop it. The only thing you control is how you let it effect you. Secretly I can't stand when one guy brings his 7 year old to the store and the kid is a neverending chatter box distracted by every little thing around him and it takes half an hour for me to win my game with him because I'm being courteous, smiling and nodding. Meanwhile, I'm screaming inside wanting to pull my hair out and just concede because it's moving so painfully slow for an inevitable 2-0, all the while not acting completely disinterested and bored like a giant ********. But like any other experience, you roll with it, look forward to your next round and move on. It's as simple as that.
As for MTGO? If you think it's a safehaven from *****ty people, then you're in for a surprise. I've played plenty of games where my opponents get angry in chat, sit silent like you're not even playing another person, or the best so far has been the guys that hold your triggers until the match times out because they're mad at you for being ahead of them so they want to just make you wait 15 minutes for the game to be over because they can't do anything about your play. There's no Judge to call for unsporting conduct on MTGO. You're left with the cold, faceless facade of another human being without any of the positive social interactions of paper MTG or the life of the store around you. You may try to tell yourself you're better off on MTGO as some sort of way to validate some odd need to blow out of proportion how negative the experience at the store playing paper Magic was, but in the end it's just that.
I'll close in saying that I'm not attacking you here, and that's in no way my intention. What I am doing is attempting to get you to think or consider that perhaps your own attitude about what you consider to be problems could in itself be part of your problem. You're far from the first to write what could be a blog post here in Magic General upset about a game store experience that could easily be summed up as an unwillingness to focus on the positive aspects of their experience rather than the negative. You certainly won't be the last.
I don't think that "looking inside yourself and staying positive" is the only thing you can do. Some people are ruthless savages. Our shop owner will not tolerate this behaviour and has reprimanded repeated offenders, usually cooling down the situation. He runs the entire store by himself, so he's very involved and takes every issue seriously. This might not be the case for you but you could ask another authorative figure (for example the judge or respected player) to step up. For me, this is not being "weak", it is raising awareness and pointing out unacceptable behaviour.
Thank you for your response Xenphire. I know that must have taken at least a bit of time to write up so thanks for putting that time aside to reply. I have considered everything you said and much of it is reasonable but I think in a few areas there is some mischaracterization of myself and the issue I am raising.
Let me clarify a few things. I have worked customer service in the financial sector for 4-5 years. If I were to become easily upset at every blatantly rude, moronic, disrespectful person whom I was tasked with assisting and also being respectful to at all times I would not have lasted that long. I have been disrespected in public settings as well and those situations are much easier to deal with than being the one new guy at FNM taking issue with douchebags who are for some reason well-liked at the store.
I am putting myself in a new and frankly unfriendly social environment for the opportunity to play a card game. That much is granted. Now what I expect out of adults is...adult behaviour. Perhaps that is asking too much but that is how I feel. When you degrade yourself and me by becoming a bitter, petulant child over losing a match or even a game then you are a person I do not want to interact with further but if I continue to play events at the store then I might have to.
Now this wouldn't be so much of an issue in other competitive areas like sports. Are there douchebags who can't take a loss in an outdoor basketball game? Tennis? Yes, but by and large any kind of unsportsmanlike conduct is generally regarded as shameful by the communities that make up those sports and so there is rightful ostracism towards these people to deter them from acting that way again in the future.
When it comes to Magic there is sadly very little drive to keep the game sportsmanlike. Perhaps this has to do with a large part of the player base being socially awkward to the point of not wishing to be confrontational. Or maybe that the game just attracts the other kind of social outcast who needs to pad his self-worth through a scale of how well he does at a card game and therefore gets incredibly bitter and personal over losing. Whatever the case is the game just doesn't have that strong drive by the majority of the community to keep the game sportsmanlike and to shun sore-losers and snobs instead of tolerating and appeasing them.
When it comes to MTGO, trust me I am under no illusions when I say it is a much more pleasant experience. I have drafted on there for 4 years or so and the few nasty messages you get are indistinguishable from the rest of the angry rabble on the internet. It's not personal. It doesn't make my blood boil. What does make my blood boil is someone flicking my cards across the table in an obviously disrespectful manner. You don't get that kind of crap in MTGO. Sure, you don't get the friendly banter that you might with some players but honestly that is a quick trade at the bazaar for not having to put up with man-child posses.
My issue isn't game-related at all. For all the times I have been mana-screwed online (which happens far, far more often in MTGO) I would, despite frustration, carry on. I don't feel I can or should force myself to do that with people who are perfectly capable of not acting the way they are, but do anyway.
All "toxic" means is something that is "very bad, unpleasant, or harmful". There is undoubtedly a toxic segment of the player base, I don't believe anyone would deny that. My issue is that these toxic players are mostly unchallenged by the other voices in the community and so much so that if sometimes feels like I'm the one guy in the Matrix that knows it's all a sham. And I don't need to be chased around by Agent Smith for saying toxic is toxic.
As for being too sensitive...possibly but that is subjective. I don't expect to be disrespected when I go to a movie theater or restaurant or bowling alley and certainly not at a gaming store. If I were to go to this one bowling alley for instance and every time I went there there was a group of players who would heckle and jeer and be otherwise disrespectful and there players were tolerated by the staff at that business or even friends with them...why would I come back? Why would I knowingly put myself in a position of degradation over and over. I'm likely not having any fun actually bowling anymore.
I do not think my expectations are unreasonable and while I feel like I am a generally patience person, in the social realm of card game I can only tolerate so much of what I feel is utterly childish. I think to surrender to that kind of "toxicity" and blow it off as part of the game is to give license where instead an infraction is needed.
I plan on visiting the store again and speaking to the staff about why I won't attend events there in the future. What they do with that information is up to them of course and I do not expect anything to happen nor will I stick around to find out but the feedback might help in the long run.
Finally I do not buy the notion that you cannot be competitive without also being disrespectful, rude, childish or bitter. While I am not super comptitive myself, I do not at all have a problem with people who are, as long as they would treat me with the basic common decency you should expect out of any sane member of society.
I don't know anything about where you live, but do you have the option of shopping around. If you can find multiple shops in whatever you consider an acceptable range of transportation, I'd recommend stopping in and attending a draft or two. I had a similar experience in that my second LGS, which I attended during my four years of high school, was full of just generally unpleasant people to be around. One guy, after beating me, immediately went to his friends ten feet away and started talking about how my deck was the worst version of its archetype he'd ever seen. Not all of my experiences were like that. I've attended six different LGS locations, each with different communities. Fortunately, right now, I go to one I really like. I don't know your situation, but if you have an opportunity to try new shops, take it.
If the people who are liked most by the store are arrogant jerks then don't go. It's up to the store to promote a good, fun playing environment and it sounds like a toxic store to be honest. I know at my store there are arrogant jerks. They think and act like they are better. When I beat them they get sour too. If they irritate me I just say, "well guess I was just better" to get under their skin. If magic is the only thing in their life and for some it sounds like it is then all you can do is laugh and their sad life.
I'm not sure which sports you ever consider good, but in all sports I played thrash talking the opposing team is looked down on and often a red flag. - I played chess, tennis and field hockey and you never ever should be so disrespectful to your opponent that you trash talk to them: you're not some kind of pauper; show some class and gentleman behaviour over the table.
I've got to agree with this. Talking some ***** to your friends is great and (I think) can make the game more enjoyable as it's all in good fun. However, trash talking someone you don't know and trying to put them on tilt is just weak-ass behaviour. We all want to enjoy the game.
To the OP: I agree with the person who said to shop around. If there's another place to play, check it out. Every LGS is definitely not like your description. Don't let a couple of asshats ruin a game that you like to play.
Many people who play competitive magic are anti-social and are akward to interact with.
For many of these people, Magic is the only thing they have going for them. Many find it difficult to make friends due to their unpleasant personalities. The only value they gain from their life is beating down noobs at their LGS and coming in the top 64 at an SCG open every 2 years.
Outside of Magic, they have few friends and their lives are miserable. Many of these people have poor hygiene and don't take care of their appearance. Many happen to be overweight to the point where it hinders every aspect of their life. Magic is all they have keeping them going and they base their self worth around their weekly results at the LGS and PTQs.
There is nothing you can do to make these people behave less akwardly.
I have been in game stores in many different countries and played in a few of the bigger tournaments across the country. Every where you go, these types of people congregate around Magic.
I am not saying that all Magic players are like this. What I am saying is that everywhere there is a high amount of Magic players, there is always going to be a decent sized socially awkward butthurt contingent of people who tilt when they lose and brag smugly when they win. I have played Magic for 20 years so far and these types of people have always been around, since way back when when I started playing in Urza block when I was in elementary school.
Magic is a great game, for my money the best game ever made, but it is not perfect. If you want to play in these tournaments, you will just have to learn to accept these types of people for who and what they are, and find a way to not let it bother you.
It used to bother me a lot but now this kind of behavior amuses me and I find it entertaining. I usually act super polite to these people, and when they whine about all the cards in their deck they could have drawn against me, I usually humor them and tell them "you're right bro, I guess I just got lucky this game."
Just maintain the moral high ground. Don't let the crabs in the bucket drag you down to their level. That's all they want to do.
I disagree with people condoning the behavior of some magic players. I do agree that there's nothing you can do about it.
I have quit playing standard several times because of people like this. It absolutely ruins the fun. But hey, I just have to take it for what it is. Last Friday a girl called me a liar and a cheat because I wouldn't let her take her move back. It has been bothering me for two days. That's when people just plain make it not worth it to play.
But what can I do about it? She is always a sore loser. I think we are 2-2, and I can't stand beating her. I hate drawing her, but I always do because we are about the same level. I am not going to just let her win. She threatened to quit magic forever last time I beat her. But, if I want to play, I will have to play her. I decided to stand up to her this time because I hoped it might be a way to deal with her, but she was more petulant than ever.
I suppose it's just a life lesson in dealing with difficult people. I don't think I ever learned it properly. I tend to roll over at first, then get royally pissed later. (When these people start expecting you to roll over, they will start treating you worse.) So I guess Magic is forcing me to learn about life again. Just have to keep brainstorming new ideas about how to deal with her and then try again.
I do think these people are wrong though. I don't think it's me. But everything competitive I've ever done has been like this. I've even had people on my same team run me down and tell me it was my fault for losing, and that was a couple different sports. These people just can't admit to failure, and they will blame anyone else to keep from having to deal with it. It will never be fun to deal with them. I guess you just have to keep brainstorming ideas and trying because you can't let them make you quit.
A very good strategy for people who whine about luck is to just rapidly agree luck is 100% of the reason they lost while you silently consider all the mistakes they made that led to their demise. It's much more tolerable once you start doing it, fun even.
"Yeah, it was awful luck that you drew nothing but mountains when you had Dovin Baan and Tidy Conclusion in hand! I was really lucky to draw enough forests to cast the spells for this monogreen deck."
The quick and dirty response:
You're being too sensitive if not overreacting a bit to negative aspects of your experiences, and if you think you're not going to have this issue at other stores or that the cold anonymity of silent opponents on MTGO are better, you're only fooling yourself. It's also a perspective problem.
Thank you so much for this post. This same response needs to be posted in every thread like this, and then the topic should just be closed. A thread like this pops up probably once a week and it's the same whining/complaining, and then the same responses.
I know it's petty but antagonizing rude players is what I miss most about organized Magic. To be clear I'm extremely friendly when playing, have run sanctioned events, judged, and taught many people to play. That being said, all my favorite stories are about putting the screws to someone who was getting upset about a 5$ FNM or something equally insignificant.
My favorite approach was to kill them with kindness - literally agree with everything they say no matter how ridiculous it is. Sometimes this will draw a crowd of onlookers and their reactions are often priceless.
I would advise folks to have a thick skin and recognize that if someone is being rude to you it probably has nothing to do with you. Don't internalize it and continue to be friendly - the nice people at the store will recognize this and you'll eventually get to know them.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
You should try to have a laugh at them. In the 1st situation you should "slow play" without slow playing and change your mind just right before putting that land in the battle field. "And.... nope.. better if I don't do that... let me think... don't rush me or you'll make it just worse."
In the second situation if he goes like a jerk just go with:
"Oh dear, you don't know if you creatures have flying? Let me help you with that. I mean, It is normal for a returning player don't know new cards and their characteristics, but you should read them before you put them in your deck...."
If he goes "I'm not obligated to answer if they have fly."
"Sure you aren't. But how can I know if they don't have an errata? I'm a returning player! The match will be a hell hole if I ask the judge an oracle of every creature card you play. We can play like two gentleman, answering simply with a yes or no, or like two kids in a dump. It's your call."
The real deal is that a player can choose not to answer a question about unknown future or about clear board state. Hell, they can even omit information, but they can't lie. This kind of "thought" that generates that kind of jerks.
While most games have as golden rule Sportsmanship over anything, MTG has "Sure you can be the betterman. Or the winner." rule.
From the article above:
"Most people hold themselves to a standard much higher than the one presented here and can continue on as they always have.There is nothing inherently wrong with helping your opponent and making sure the game state is fully legal . Indeed, we encourage such sportsmanship. However , if you do wish to be competitive, or are playing someone competitive, both of you need to understand where the borders are. By having them out in the open, there should be fewer cases where a player feels that they have been taken advantage of.
If think that playing magic isn't good because of your locals, wait for the new MTGO and have fun there.
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I got out of paper around 2008 because of what I felt was a nasty/toxic game environment that wasn't suited to my casual/fun-oriented motivation for playing MtG. Now bear in mind I wasn't that great back in 2006/2007 but I was learning.
Hopped back in in 2012 and again soon dropped out of paper due to the toxicity. This is where I started playing MTGO and have not stopped until very recently when I felt that I had improved enough as a casual player as well as being a 25-year old man, to be immune to the crappy attitudes and condescending tones that I was greeted with in the past.
Problem is it only takes one or two people to completely ruin your mood and thus your fun.
Played draft last night and tonight, 4 rounds each, went 1-3 last night (5 game wins, 6 game losses) and 2-2 tonight (4 wins, 4 losses). Not amazing records and I am a tad rusty in a few areas (MTGO assistance spoiled me maybe) but both nights I had a game with someone who absolutely sapped any and all fun out of the game and left me feeling frustrated and disappointed.
First problem guy was my last match Thurs night, lost to him 2-1. This guy was somewhat dickish but mostly I was annoyed with how he conducted the last game of a $10 no-prize draft...he was condescending and rushing me along, treating me like an idiot for blocking decisions only be surprised by a combat trick. He would draw (but not look) a card during my 2nd main...like relax I'm not done yet...Offered zero communication other than absolutely necessary and finally after winning he didn't offer a single word or extend his hand. I suppose I could have said something to him but after playing 3 games with this guy I could tell what kind a person he was. I just got up and left. It rubbed me the wrong way and I was really upset at being treated like a child by someone who probably felt that in this gaming store he belonged to some elite caste or something.
I was considering why I left paper in the first place and reminding myself that these kinds of people will always make up some of the paper community but I decided to give Friday night draft a shot...after all maybe I was overeating....
Well my first opponent of the night completely convinced me that paper Magic is simply not for me. I beat this sore loser 2-0 and I have have never felt such a bitter taste over such a clean victory. This guy was a prick, no question. Not only did he display the same unsubstantiated hubris as the other guy I played with but he was actually overtly rude. He would act like a mime who couldn't speak most of the time. As if he was playing by himself. When he scooped without saying a single word in game 1 I was surprised (board state was cluttered, he only had 1 card in his library but I didn't notice) he remarked "You look confused." in an incredibly condescending prickish way that demonstrated the salt and butthurt of losing to some guy he has never seen around the shop before. He flicked my enchantment cards off his field like they and I were utter pieces of garbage. I didn't say a word.
Game two really did it for me though, during one of the final combat phases I casually asked if he had any flyers (simple yes or no question)...he looked blankly at me and I repeated my question. He simply spread his cards out, not saying anything and gave a "what do you think" expression. At this point I simply said "or you can just answer the question." and left it at that. I offered my had to this guy who game the quickest, briefest touch, hardly a shake knowing that to outright refuse would be too ridiculous even for him. He left me feeling like he didn't think I deserved to win or even that I was a worthy opponent.
I went on to play 3 pleasant opponents and ended 2-2. Problem is I don't want to come back to this store and get paired again with those certain characters again. I play to have fun and challenge my brain, not challenge my patience.
MTGO never has me feeling like a an outsider/noob/etc no matter how good or bad the event goes.
Some have mentioned to me that the store I go to (live very close to) is THE most competitive store in the city and that more casual stores are a less toxic environment but honestly the "Pro Bros" culture really didn't impress me at all.
TL DR: Had two opponents with crap attitudes in two nights and I feel exhausted and disappointed with paper MtG.
Am I being too sensitive or can people relate to what I've described?
He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
You're being too sensitive if not overreacting a bit to negative aspects of your experiences, and if you think you're not going to have this issue at other stores or that the cold anonymity of silent opponents on MTGO are better, you're only fooling yourself. It's also a perspective problem.
The long-winded response:
Let me start out by quoting Captain Jack Sparrow - "The problem isn't the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem."
I see the word "toxicity" slung around like condoms at a Pride Parade these days, and it's getting kind of trite. The moment someone has a remotely negative experience, the "toxicity" card is whipped out of the deck like some sort of crowdsourced validation for being upset, angry or aggitated because of a human experience. You go to a store and play 4 or 5 rounds of Magic, have two opponents who take the game more serious than you do and suddenly you're "disappointed" and "exhausted" from paper MTG and suddenly forget the other opponents who you have pleasant or acceptable matches with, the fun of drafting, the fun of actually playing the game in itself. Now thanks to the most popular buzzword coined on the internet, you can make a blanket statement about the entire paper Magic experience as being "toxic" because instead of choosing to remember the fun or good parts of the night and moving on, you're focused on finding a reason to continue being upset. Two opponents with "crap attitudes" in two nights and suddenly you're "exhausted" and "disappointed" with MTG as a whole is a red flag that the issue isn't the game - it's your lack of willingness to overlook the one opponent either of those nights in favor of what you actually enjoyed.
I play all sorts of people at the two shops I play at. I play overly serious people who act like their play at a prerelease is the most important decision of their life. I play the guys that constantly rapidly flicker cards or talk to try to throw me off, ignore them and play better by not getting flustered. I play the timid player that just build this deck and isn't even sure how it works. I play the casual attitude guy that talks with me throughout the match and we both have a laugh at our misplays. Sometimes, and my favorite, is I get to play the guy that wins SCG IQs and as infuriated as I am during those games when I lose or he's answering everything, I know it's because he's better than I am and after the game we talk for a while about what I could have done and I learn something. Sometimes I go a bit on tilt when I get to mulligan to 3 on Game 2 after curving out and smashing face Game 1, because variance is a *****. They're all different experiences and different degrees of the experience, but it's up to you how you handle it.
If your opponent is flicking his cards, asking you if you're done, asking you why you did something and that offends you, then stop being offended and ignore them. You don't have to respond or get aggitated and upset - that reaction is a choice and a choice that only they benefit from. There are going to be *****ty people you play Magic against, just like there's going to be *****ty people in any other aspect of life. You can't avoid it, you can't stop it. The only thing you control is how you let it effect you. Secretly I can't stand when one guy brings his 7 year old to the store and the kid is a neverending chatter box distracted by every little thing around him and it takes half an hour for me to win my game with him because I'm being courteous, smiling and nodding. Meanwhile, I'm screaming inside wanting to pull my hair out and just concede because it's moving so painfully slow for an inevitable 2-0, all the while not acting completely disinterested and bored like a giant ********. But like any other experience, you roll with it, look forward to your next round and move on. It's as simple as that.
As for MTGO? If you think it's a safehaven from *****ty people, then you're in for a surprise. I've played plenty of games where my opponents get angry in chat, sit silent like you're not even playing another person, or the best so far has been the guys that hold your triggers until the match times out because they're mad at you for being ahead of them so they want to just make you wait 15 minutes for the game to be over because they can't do anything about your play. There's no Judge to call for unsporting conduct on MTGO. You're left with the cold, faceless facade of another human being without any of the positive social interactions of paper MTG or the life of the store around you. You may try to tell yourself you're better off on MTGO as some sort of way to validate some odd need to blow out of proportion how negative the experience at the store playing paper Magic was, but in the end it's just that.
I'll close in saying that I'm not attacking you here, and that's in no way my intention. What I am doing is attempting to get you to think or consider that perhaps your own attitude about what you consider to be problems could in itself be part of your problem. You're far from the first to write what could be a blog post here in Magic General upset about a game store experience that could easily be summed up as an unwillingness to focus on the positive aspects of their experience rather than the negative. You certainly won't be the last.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Let me clarify a few things. I have worked customer service in the financial sector for 4-5 years. If I were to become easily upset at every blatantly rude, moronic, disrespectful person whom I was tasked with assisting and also being respectful to at all times I would not have lasted that long. I have been disrespected in public settings as well and those situations are much easier to deal with than being the one new guy at FNM taking issue with douchebags who are for some reason well-liked at the store.
I am putting myself in a new and frankly unfriendly social environment for the opportunity to play a card game. That much is granted. Now what I expect out of adults is...adult behaviour. Perhaps that is asking too much but that is how I feel. When you degrade yourself and me by becoming a bitter, petulant child over losing a match or even a game then you are a person I do not want to interact with further but if I continue to play events at the store then I might have to.
Now this wouldn't be so much of an issue in other competitive areas like sports. Are there douchebags who can't take a loss in an outdoor basketball game? Tennis? Yes, but by and large any kind of unsportsmanlike conduct is generally regarded as shameful by the communities that make up those sports and so there is rightful ostracism towards these people to deter them from acting that way again in the future.
When it comes to Magic there is sadly very little drive to keep the game sportsmanlike. Perhaps this has to do with a large part of the player base being socially awkward to the point of not wishing to be confrontational. Or maybe that the game just attracts the other kind of social outcast who needs to pad his self-worth through a scale of how well he does at a card game and therefore gets incredibly bitter and personal over losing. Whatever the case is the game just doesn't have that strong drive by the majority of the community to keep the game sportsmanlike and to shun sore-losers and snobs instead of tolerating and appeasing them.
When it comes to MTGO, trust me I am under no illusions when I say it is a much more pleasant experience. I have drafted on there for 4 years or so and the few nasty messages you get are indistinguishable from the rest of the angry rabble on the internet. It's not personal. It doesn't make my blood boil. What does make my blood boil is someone flicking my cards across the table in an obviously disrespectful manner. You don't get that kind of crap in MTGO. Sure, you don't get the friendly banter that you might with some players but honestly that is a quick trade at the bazaar for not having to put up with man-child posses.
My issue isn't game-related at all. For all the times I have been mana-screwed online (which happens far, far more often in MTGO) I would, despite frustration, carry on. I don't feel I can or should force myself to do that with people who are perfectly capable of not acting the way they are, but do anyway.
All "toxic" means is something that is "very bad, unpleasant, or harmful". There is undoubtedly a toxic segment of the player base, I don't believe anyone would deny that. My issue is that these toxic players are mostly unchallenged by the other voices in the community and so much so that if sometimes feels like I'm the one guy in the Matrix that knows it's all a sham. And I don't need to be chased around by Agent Smith for saying toxic is toxic.
As for being too sensitive...possibly but that is subjective. I don't expect to be disrespected when I go to a movie theater or restaurant or bowling alley and certainly not at a gaming store. If I were to go to this one bowling alley for instance and every time I went there there was a group of players who would heckle and jeer and be otherwise disrespectful and there players were tolerated by the staff at that business or even friends with them...why would I come back? Why would I knowingly put myself in a position of degradation over and over. I'm likely not having any fun actually bowling anymore.
I do not think my expectations are unreasonable and while I feel like I am a generally patience person, in the social realm of card game I can only tolerate so much of what I feel is utterly childish. I think to surrender to that kind of "toxicity" and blow it off as part of the game is to give license where instead an infraction is needed.
I plan on visiting the store again and speaking to the staff about why I won't attend events there in the future. What they do with that information is up to them of course and I do not expect anything to happen nor will I stick around to find out but the feedback might help in the long run.
Finally I do not buy the notion that you cannot be competitive without also being disrespectful, rude, childish or bitter. While I am not super comptitive myself, I do not at all have a problem with people who are, as long as they would treat me with the basic common decency you should expect out of any sane member of society.
He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
They either never come back, or it actually sinks in that everyone is there for a good time and their attitude flips.
I get the feeling that the players I have issues with are part of the "in crowd" at that store, and so I do not have much hope for change.
He is the only one who sees the patterns in the overlapping maps and conflicting reports.
I've got to agree with this. Talking some ***** to your friends is great and (I think) can make the game more enjoyable as it's all in good fun. However, trash talking someone you don't know and trying to put them on tilt is just weak-ass behaviour. We all want to enjoy the game.
To the OP: I agree with the person who said to shop around. If there's another place to play, check it out. Every LGS is definitely not like your description. Don't let a couple of asshats ruin a game that you like to play.
Many people who play competitive magic are anti-social and are akward to interact with.
For many of these people, Magic is the only thing they have going for them. Many find it difficult to make friends due to their unpleasant personalities. The only value they gain from their life is beating down noobs at their LGS and coming in the top 64 at an SCG open every 2 years.
Outside of Magic, they have few friends and their lives are miserable. Many of these people have poor hygiene and don't take care of their appearance. Many happen to be overweight to the point where it hinders every aspect of their life. Magic is all they have keeping them going and they base their self worth around their weekly results at the LGS and PTQs.
There is nothing you can do to make these people behave less akwardly.
I have been in game stores in many different countries and played in a few of the bigger tournaments across the country. Every where you go, these types of people congregate around Magic.
I am not saying that all Magic players are like this. What I am saying is that everywhere there is a high amount of Magic players, there is always going to be a decent sized socially awkward butthurt contingent of people who tilt when they lose and brag smugly when they win. I have played Magic for 20 years so far and these types of people have always been around, since way back when when I started playing in Urza block when I was in elementary school.
Magic is a great game, for my money the best game ever made, but it is not perfect. If you want to play in these tournaments, you will just have to learn to accept these types of people for who and what they are, and find a way to not let it bother you.
It used to bother me a lot but now this kind of behavior amuses me and I find it entertaining. I usually act super polite to these people, and when they whine about all the cards in their deck they could have drawn against me, I usually humor them and tell them "you're right bro, I guess I just got lucky this game."
Just maintain the moral high ground. Don't let the crabs in the bucket drag you down to their level. That's all they want to do.
I have quit playing standard several times because of people like this. It absolutely ruins the fun. But hey, I just have to take it for what it is. Last Friday a girl called me a liar and a cheat because I wouldn't let her take her move back. It has been bothering me for two days. That's when people just plain make it not worth it to play.
But what can I do about it? She is always a sore loser. I think we are 2-2, and I can't stand beating her. I hate drawing her, but I always do because we are about the same level. I am not going to just let her win. She threatened to quit magic forever last time I beat her. But, if I want to play, I will have to play her. I decided to stand up to her this time because I hoped it might be a way to deal with her, but she was more petulant than ever.
I suppose it's just a life lesson in dealing with difficult people. I don't think I ever learned it properly. I tend to roll over at first, then get royally pissed later. (When these people start expecting you to roll over, they will start treating you worse.) So I guess Magic is forcing me to learn about life again. Just have to keep brainstorming new ideas about how to deal with her and then try again.
I do think these people are wrong though. I don't think it's me. But everything competitive I've ever done has been like this. I've even had people on my same team run me down and tell me it was my fault for losing, and that was a couple different sports. These people just can't admit to failure, and they will blame anyone else to keep from having to deal with it. It will never be fun to deal with them. I guess you just have to keep brainstorming ideas and trying because you can't let them make you quit.
"Yeah, it was awful luck that you drew nothing but mountains when you had Dovin Baan and Tidy Conclusion in hand! I was really lucky to draw enough forests to cast the spells for this monogreen deck."
Thank you so much for this post. This same response needs to be posted in every thread like this, and then the topic should just be closed. A thread like this pops up probably once a week and it's the same whining/complaining, and then the same responses.
My Collection & Tradelist
My EDH Cube: 960 Cards, Fully Foiled and Pimped
CUBE TUTOR
My favorite approach was to kill them with kindness - literally agree with everything they say no matter how ridiculous it is. Sometimes this will draw a crowd of onlookers and their reactions are often priceless.
I would advise folks to have a thick skin and recognize that if someone is being rude to you it probably has nothing to do with you. Don't internalize it and continue to be friendly - the nice people at the store will recognize this and you'll eventually get to know them.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
You should try to have a laugh at them. In the 1st situation you should "slow play" without slow playing and change your mind just right before putting that land in the battle field. "And.... nope.. better if I don't do that... let me think... don't rush me or you'll make it just worse."
In the second situation if he goes like a jerk just go with:
"Oh dear, you don't know if you creatures have flying? Let me help you with that. I mean, It is normal for a returning player don't know new cards and their characteristics, but you should read them before you put them in your deck...."
If he goes "I'm not obligated to answer if they have fly."
"Sure you aren't. But how can I know if they don't have an errata? I'm a returning player! The match will be a hell hole if I ask the judge an oracle of every creature card you play. We can play like two gentleman, answering simply with a yes or no, or like two kids in a dump. It's your call."
The real deal is that a player can choose not to answer a question about unknown future or about clear board state. Hell, they can even omit information, but they can't lie. This kind of "thought" that generates that kind of jerks.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/player-communication-guide-2007-09-11
While most games have as golden rule Sportsmanship over anything, MTG has "Sure you can be the betterman. Or the winner." rule.
From the article above:
"Most people hold themselves to a standard much higher than the one presented here and can continue on as they always have.There is nothing inherently wrong with helping your opponent and making sure the game state is fully legal . Indeed, we encourage such sportsmanship. However , if you do wish to be competitive, or are playing someone competitive, both of you need to understand where the borders are. By having them out in the open, there should be fewer cases where a player feels that they have been taken advantage of.
If think that playing magic isn't good because of your locals, wait for the new MTGO and have fun there.