OK,full disclosure, I love dragons. I love dragon cards, dragon pws, dragon cookies(not even sure they exist), but I love dragons.
Also, I did not start playing magic again until August 2015, so I was not playing when he released with Khans.
So I have a simple question: I know Sarkhan The Dragonspeaker was super hyped. On the surface, he looks like an amazing PW. Why is it he never made it in standard? Even the Dragon decks would play Stormbreath over him(understandable being pro white) but why did he never make it.
Not really a modern forum question since will never ever see modern play.
I liked that Planeswalker. I used him in my Theros-Khans standard Naya deck, and I kept using him in my Naya monsters deck in Khans-BFZ standard for a while, too. I never ulted him but that's not really what makes him good. His other two abilities felt pretty solid, and with mana dorks and Courser of Kruphix and Satry tokens as blockers, I could minus him for value and start plusing him on the next few turns for flying damage. I did that all the time in Theros-Khans standard and loved it! I also had Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in that deck, and the +1/+1 counters would stay, so he'd become a massive flyer.
I know this is just a personal example, but man, I loved that Naya monsters/walkers deck in Theros-Khans, and Sarkhan pulled his weight. Fun card!
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UBR Sedris RG Omnath, Locus of Rage UB The Scarab God RUG Maelstrom Wanderer WU Dragonlord Ojutai
A good card won't necessarily see play in standard, it needs the right deck, or the right opposing decks to played. I think his lack of play had a lot to do with Siege Rhino, the rhino isn't killed by his -3, the rhino's life gain almost negates an attack from Sarkhan's +1, and Siege Rhino was extremely popular.
A good card won't necessarily see play in standard, it needs the right deck, or the right opposing decks to played. I think his lack of play had a lot to do with Siege Rhino, the rhino isn't killed by his -3, the rhino's life gain almost negates an attack from Sarkhan's +1, and Siege Rhino was extremely popular.
Yeah, I had a feeling it was the Rhino, the card that kept so many other good cards from seeing play. Well, thanks guys! Here's to Return to Tarkir in 4 years as judging by the post DTK Dragons, WotC doesn't like printing good ones anymore.
Yeah, I had a feeling it was the Rhino, the card that kept so many other good cards from seeing play. Well, thanks guys! Here's to Return to Tarkir in 4 years as judging by the post DTK Dragons, WotC doesn't like printing good ones anymore.
Actually Skyship Stalker is better than the average dragon. Throughout the entire history of Magic, most dragons have either been too expensive to see play outside of EDH/casual/limited or have been total garbage. Their only real competitive resurgences occurred during dragon-heavy blocks (Tarkir and Alara, for example).
Yeah, I had a feeling it was the Rhino, the card that kept so many other good cards from seeing play. Well, thanks guys! Here's to Return to Tarkir in 4 years as judging by the post DTK Dragons, WotC doesn't like printing good ones anymore.
Actually Skyship Stalker is better than the average dragon. Throughout the entire history of Magic, most dragons have either been too expensive to see play outside of EDH/casual/limited or have been total garbage. Their only real competitive resurgences occurred during dragon-heavy blocks (Tarkir and Alara, for example).
Hmm, yeah I saw him when he was previewed. At 3/3, I just want more from my 4 drop. Thunderbreak Regent was the IMO my gold standard of the power level good dragons should be. Stormbreath is great for 5 mana. Thundermaw Hellkite, even though I love dragons, was too powerful.
If Stalker had been a 4/3 or a 3/4, I could get on board but you have to pump mana into him just to get him equal with Regent. Maybe if they made him a 2/4 and it said "R: creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn" I could see it. As it is, he can't even block a copter and live.
3/3 Flying for 4 is pretty much on-par for modern magic. You're not likely going to get much better base stats without dragons or flying in general being heavily pushed in a set/block. The fact that it also has firebreathing and can get both haste and first strike is really strong.
3/3 Flying for 4 is pretty much on-par for modern magic. You're not likely going to get much better base stats without dragons or flying in general being heavily pushed in a set/block. The fact that it also has firebreathing and can get both haste and first strike is really strong.
Olivia is a 3/3 flier for 3 and sees no play so how could you say a 3/3 flier for 4 is on par for modern magic. Maybe you were talking limited playability. I'm referring to competitive standard. Butcher of the hoard was a 5/4 flier for 4(grant 3 colors but in a set that made it easy to get the three colors).
Skyship Stalker should have at the very least been given haste naturally and not have to pay for it. Simply, if you are pointing at a "good" dragon, sorry, but that's not it. Simply if your 4 drop can't beat smuggler's copter and stay alive, when both fly, there's something wrong.
Getting back on topic, funny enough, do you guys think Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker would do better in this format than Khans? Beats copter, great PW killer. Can survive a copter hit if he +1's the turn he drops. Survives all the instant speed removal people are bringing in to beat copter(except grasp of darkness).
Olivia is 2 colors. Olivia voldaren was 3/3 for 2BR as well, and saw some standard play while new olivia has not to my knowledge. They have to push multicolored cards because otherwise there's no reason to play them either. There is nothing wrong with skyship stalker, it's a playable card. Making it 4/4 would have been insane. Very rarely do they push cards that hard, like thundermaw hellkite was the most pushed dragon ever I'd say and they did that on purpose because they were afraid of lingering souls being too good.
Sarkhan saw some play in standard. Hell, he was used in the pro tour where his ultimate smashed a control player left and right when it was activated out of a mardu control deck against some blue based control deck with much better card draw outside sarkhan ultimate where he just out resourced the opponent. Sure he wasn't a JTMS, but no walkers are except perhaps jace's prodigal form.
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Wow, surprised this topic had the legs it did. Anyway A 3/3 for 4 mana that does nothing the turn it comes into play = a creature that will rarely ever see play. Maybe in a world without the copter, I could see it but IMO Thunderbreak Regent will be the gold standard for 4 mana dragons. It was value six was from sunday. Maybe if the Stalker was basically a Stormbreath Dragon copy, even at 5 mana, I could see him being playable but really, a 3/3 for 4. Again, Olivia is a 3/3 for 3 with no downside and hardly see's play(she's an amazing card and worthy of the mythic rarity just she hasn't found the right deck. It's like she two slow for aggro and too small for mid range. That will be my next topic...is it good we live in a world a 3/3 flier for 3 is not good enough for tournament decks.
That will be my next topic...is it good we live in a world a 3/3 flier for 3 is not good enough for tournament decks.
Mantis Rider saw plenty of play in the same standard as Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker; Herald of Torment was also played. A 3/3 flier for 3 is good enough for standard provided it has the right deck, and/or the right combination of other abilities. The problem isn't Olivia, Mobilized for War, it's the rest of the RB vampire deck.
Lightning Bolt is the reason why 3/3 for 3 generally isn't playable in modern. Is that good? I'm not complaining that at least some formats have efficient removal, now that we no longer get it in standard.
Really Sarkhan Unbroken was more of a letdown when it comes to standard. They actually made him URG to make Temur dragons the standard deck. It didn't work out at all.
Honestly really shouldn't have expectations with anything dragon related in standard.
He saw standard play, but normally in decks that didn't actually want creatures but wanted win conditions rather than aggro or mid range decks where stormbreath dragon was better.
After theros rotation it was Rhinos he couldn't kill and Mantis riders that would knock him out with haste.
I play him in my Zirilan of the claw commander deck, mostly for favor reasons but wraths are common in commander so having a dragon that is not so easily killed is useful.
OK,full disclosure, I love dragons. I love dragon cards, dragon pws, dragon cookies(not even sure they exist), but I love dragons.
Also, I did not start playing magic again until August 2015, so I was not playing when he released with Khans.
So I have a simple question: I know Sarkhan The Dragonspeaker was super hyped. On the surface, he looks like an amazing PW. Why is it he never made it in standard? Even the Dragon decks would play Stormbreath over him(understandable being pro white) but why did he never make it.
Not really a modern forum question since will never ever see modern play.
There was no deck that was an appropriate fit for ol Sarkster. Play him in EDH. Nothing is stopping you, he is still cool.
I know this is just a personal example, but man, I loved that Naya monsters/walkers deck in Theros-Khans, and Sarkhan pulled his weight. Fun card!
UBR Sedris
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage
UB The Scarab God
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer
WU Dragonlord Ojutai
Here's the discussion from when he was first spoiled. People compared him to Stormbreath Dragon straight away, and he didn't look that impressive in comparison.
Yeah, I had a feeling it was the Rhino, the card that kept so many other good cards from seeing play. Well, thanks guys! Here's to Return to Tarkir in 4 years as judging by the post DTK Dragons, WotC doesn't like printing good ones anymore.
Actually Skyship Stalker is better than the average dragon. Throughout the entire history of Magic, most dragons have either been too expensive to see play outside of EDH/casual/limited or have been total garbage. Their only real competitive resurgences occurred during dragon-heavy blocks (Tarkir and Alara, for example).
Hmm, yeah I saw him when he was previewed. At 3/3, I just want more from my 4 drop. Thunderbreak Regent was the IMO my gold standard of the power level good dragons should be. Stormbreath is great for 5 mana. Thundermaw Hellkite, even though I love dragons, was too powerful.
If Stalker had been a 4/3 or a 3/4, I could get on board but you have to pump mana into him just to get him equal with Regent. Maybe if they made him a 2/4 and it said "R: creature gets +2/+0 until end of turn" I could see it. As it is, he can't even block a copter and live.
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Olivia is a 3/3 flier for 3 and sees no play so how could you say a 3/3 flier for 4 is on par for modern magic. Maybe you were talking limited playability. I'm referring to competitive standard. Butcher of the hoard was a 5/4 flier for 4(grant 3 colors but in a set that made it easy to get the three colors).
Skyship Stalker should have at the very least been given haste naturally and not have to pay for it. Simply, if you are pointing at a "good" dragon, sorry, but that's not it. Simply if your 4 drop can't beat smuggler's copter and stay alive, when both fly, there's something wrong.
Getting back on topic, funny enough, do you guys think Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker would do better in this format than Khans? Beats copter, great PW killer. Can survive a copter hit if he +1's the turn he drops. Survives all the instant speed removal people are bringing in to beat copter(except grasp of darkness).
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Sarkhan saw some play in standard. Hell, he was used in the pro tour where his ultimate smashed a control player left and right when it was activated out of a mardu control deck against some blue based control deck with much better card draw outside sarkhan ultimate where he just out resourced the opponent. Sure he wasn't a JTMS, but no walkers are except perhaps jace's prodigal form.
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Mantis Rider saw plenty of play in the same standard as Sarkhan, The Dragonspeaker; Herald of Torment was also played. A 3/3 flier for 3 is good enough for standard provided it has the right deck, and/or the right combination of other abilities. The problem isn't Olivia, Mobilized for War, it's the rest of the RB vampire deck.
Lightning Bolt is the reason why 3/3 for 3 generally isn't playable in modern. Is that good? I'm not complaining that at least some formats have efficient removal, now that we no longer get it in standard.
Honestly really shouldn't have expectations with anything dragon related in standard.
He saw standard play, but normally in decks that didn't actually want creatures but wanted win conditions rather than aggro or mid range decks where stormbreath dragon was better.
After theros rotation it was Rhinos he couldn't kill and Mantis riders that would knock him out with haste.
I play him in my Zirilan of the claw commander deck, mostly for favor reasons but wraths are common in commander so having a dragon that is not so easily killed is useful.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
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GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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