Believe it or not, this thread is not about White's dominance in the current standard but it's OP-ness across all but tournament level vintage formats. Follow me. White's place is defense, life gain, protection and good small creatures right? Why then has white traditionally received very powerful 4 and 5 drops(Resto Angel, Sun Titan, Archangel Avacyn(for standard), Baneslayer Angel and that Elemental who's name escapes me that starts with B....even Serra Angel was one of the best creatures in it's own time).
So white get's the best small creatures, good large ones, historically the best removal spells(which totally should be black's job...I mean name anything in black that compares to swords or path). Compare this with Blue, the other "defensive" color. It get's counterspells, tempo cards, card draw and decent small creatures(snapcaster mage aside) and horrible(comparatively) big creatures. When was the last time you cast a blue creature over 4 mana(mono blue so Ojutai doesnt count)?
This is not meant as a "white should be nerfed" thread nor am I saying I am arbitrarily correct, but that white seems to have everything. It also has the best sideboard options in almost every format because it can answer anything. Artifacts...yep. Burn...yep. Indestructable...yep. Enchantments...yep. lots of small creatures...yep.
It just so happens we are in a standard dominated by white but this goes beyond into Modern and Legacy.
I don't see what you're getting at... White might be sitting with Green at the top of Standard but Modern in often dominated by Red and Black, and nothing compares to Blue in Legacy. I don't share the opinion but I've heard it said that White is the *weakest* colour in formats that aren't Standard. I've never heard it said that White is the best colour overall and I have no reason to believe that it is :/
Lets see, in modern, White is played for path and sideboard stuff. In legacy, its played for swords, stoneforge,miracles and DnT. I mean white doesn't really have ways to interact with the stack, and that kind of murders you in eternal formats.
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I disagree with some parts execpt for his comment about blue creatures over a 3 drop. I feel like elder deep-fiend is good but you have to build around him a little. With Avacyn you can put her into any white deck and always be good for standard.
I don't know much about legacy or vintage, as I just started with legacy and have no interest in vintage as a format, so I can't say much about them
While white is one of the better colours in standard, along with green, it seems weak in modern, as it is often just splashed for removal, lingering souls and sideboard options.
White is busted in standard right now. The same isn't close to being true in any other format. In vintage white is the worst color by far. In legacy it's mostly creature removal and monastery mentor/SFM apart from DnT. In modern, path and sideboard options. Could that change? Yeah if they keep printing more white cards that are good in those formats, but that certainly doesn't seem to be likely as a card being viable in legacy or vintage is quite unlikely. More likely in modern, but still not that likely in comparison to other colors.
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Can't speak for standard as I don't/haven't ever really followed and/or played it. Modern, Legacy, Vintage see few decks play white extensively (if at all, sans Mentor) but it does see some nice SB play. Now speaking from personal experience: all four of my EDH decks (discounting Vorel of the Hull Clade as he was my 1st and casualish) contained white--I did not intentionally include it, and it was certainly far from the central color in any. It was, however, an EXCELLENT support color.
I think my conclusion would have to be that it does not even come close to dominating any format but that it can be a good-to-great support color with exile effects to both creatures and enchantments, as well as wrath effects being the big reasons to splash/play it. As I said, I never picked white to play consciously, it was more of a product of the unique appears-to-be-nice effects it produces.
I will say the same about red, while I'm at it, though not all points above are valid for this color. Red is pretty weak by itself. But it is another very good support color. It doesn't do enough on it's own but it has just the right cards to side in or splash for to make it a contender in many 75s or 99s. (P.S. exception is Burn of course, which is a strong contender in the right meta in modern).
Now green, blue, and black on the other hand--I don't think there's any debate that those are the strongest colors and their dominance varies by format (e.g. Green in EDH, blue in Vintage). This isn't to say they're necessary to win or that those two examples I mentioned mean they are THE BEST hands down; just saying that they play the best in these formats in a way that push white and red to "lol tier?" status or aforementioned support role imo.
Being a jack of all trades is valuable in formats without unlimited mana fixing, but the older formats are much closer to unlimited mana fixing. Death and Taxes is a nifty way of leveraging white's highly generalized nature with some extra Wasteland and Rishadan action to reward a refusal to dip into another color, and that's cool and all, but that's hardly a tier 0 deck. Apart from that, the jack of all trades factor confers pretty little value when multicolor strategies are easy and available.
OP is pretty much saying that monowhite would dominate legacy if multicolor decks were banned from legacy, which is a worthless thought exercise that's not tethered to reality (even if it's actually true).
OP is pretty much saying that monowhite would dominate legacy if multicolor decks were banned from legacy, which is a worthless thought exercise that's not tethered to reality (even if it's actually true).
I wonder if monowhite would dominate all formats if it was the only color lol jk jk (are we allowed to make jokes here? I did make my valid point two posts above).
Edit--dang it lands and artifacts. Curse you. Although to be fair, lands would be an easy matchup for Mono White.
Although to be fair, lands would be an easy matchup for Mono White.
Lands vs D&T is pretty close to 50/50.
Preboard, Loam and P-fire are a nightmare. Dark Depths really isn't that much of a problem, you have 11 outs to the token. I guess it's the standard DnT problem of needing to draw the right half of your deck.
Once you bring in the RIPs, and the tutor, it gets a lot better.
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I board out most of my Dark Depths to settle on for the long game. Molten Vortex is also clutch, and of course Grip is an all-star. Needle to, if I run it.
Usually I do okay unless the D&T player has a very good start (which isn't that uncommon); in which case I struggle to control their board amidst taxing effects and against a clock. Overall I think it's very lose to 50/50 with reasonably good players (a little bettervif I'm paying RUG Lands with Engineered Explosives).
I can agree partially that white has gotten buff in standard. I myself do like white more now than I did back then.
With vintage and legacy being weak and crappy when it comes to white, modern has its ups and downs. I saw the mechanics change somewhere in the Time Spiral/Lorwyn blocks. Maybe as early as Mirrodin (see Turn the Tables for example). I think white showed more of the aggressive side by adding the "destroy the attacking or blocking creature" mechanic and somewhat copying black's mechanic but tweaking it a bit. Plus, since you're seeing more black and white decks more often, you're seeing the colors using the other color's mechanics (if this makes any sense) a lot more too.
With that being said. I partially agree, but not in a way where you think white alone is strong. I still wouldn't run white alone because while it's mechanics beefed up HEAVILY, it's still prone to its weaknesses to red, green, and black. Which is why I run one of those colors with white if I were to use white.
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Hasn't white pretty much always been the weakest color (outside of Alara-Zendikar Standard when even JTMS couldn't make blue viable)?
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So white get's the best small creatures, good large ones, historically the best removal spells(which totally should be black's job...I mean name anything in black that compares to swords or path). Compare this with Blue, the other "defensive" color. It get's counterspells, tempo cards, card draw and decent small creatures(snapcaster mage aside) and horrible(comparatively) big creatures. When was the last time you cast a blue creature over 4 mana(mono blue so Ojutai doesnt count)?
This is not meant as a "white should be nerfed" thread nor am I saying I am arbitrarily correct, but that white seems to have everything. It also has the best sideboard options in almost every format because it can answer anything. Artifacts...yep. Burn...yep. Indestructable...yep. Enchantments...yep. lots of small creatures...yep.
It just so happens we are in a standard dominated by white but this goes beyond into Modern and Legacy.
Your thoughts?
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While white is one of the better colours in standard, along with green, it seems weak in modern, as it is often just splashed for removal, lingering souls and sideboard options.
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I think my conclusion would have to be that it does not even come close to dominating any format but that it can be a good-to-great support color with exile effects to both creatures and enchantments, as well as wrath effects being the big reasons to splash/play it. As I said, I never picked white to play consciously, it was more of a product of the unique appears-to-be-nice effects it produces.
I will say the same about red, while I'm at it, though not all points above are valid for this color. Red is pretty weak by itself. But it is another very good support color. It doesn't do enough on it's own but it has just the right cards to side in or splash for to make it a contender in many 75s or 99s. (P.S. exception is Burn of course, which is a strong contender in the right meta in modern).
Now green, blue, and black on the other hand--I don't think there's any debate that those are the strongest colors and their dominance varies by format (e.g. Green in EDH, blue in Vintage). This isn't to say they're necessary to win or that those two examples I mentioned mean they are THE BEST hands down; just saying that they play the best in these formats in a way that push white and red to "lol tier?" status or aforementioned support role imo.
OP is pretty much saying that monowhite would dominate legacy if multicolor decks were banned from legacy, which is a worthless thought exercise that's not tethered to reality (even if it's actually true).
I wonder if monowhite would dominate all formats if it was the only color lol jk jk (are we allowed to make jokes here? I did make my valid point two posts above).
Edit--dang it lands and artifacts. Curse you. Although to be fair, lands would be an easy matchup for Mono White.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Jund and Grixis cuck Abzan all day. Bant and Esper cuck themselves.
Lands without R/G though? No Punishing Fire for you!
Preboard, Loam and P-fire are a nightmare. Dark Depths really isn't that much of a problem, you have 11 outs to the token. I guess it's the standard DnT problem of needing to draw the right half of your deck.
Once you bring in the RIPs, and the tutor, it gets a lot better.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
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Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
Usually I do okay unless the D&T player has a very good start (which isn't that uncommon); in which case I struggle to control their board amidst taxing effects and against a clock. Overall I think it's very lose to 50/50 with reasonably good players (a little bettervif I'm paying RUG Lands with Engineered Explosives).
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
With vintage and legacy being weak and crappy when it comes to white, modern has its ups and downs. I saw the mechanics change somewhere in the Time Spiral/Lorwyn blocks. Maybe as early as Mirrodin (see Turn the Tables for example). I think white showed more of the aggressive side by adding the "destroy the attacking or blocking creature" mechanic and somewhat copying black's mechanic but tweaking it a bit. Plus, since you're seeing more black and white decks more often, you're seeing the colors using the other color's mechanics (if this makes any sense) a lot more too.
With that being said. I partially agree, but not in a way where you think white alone is strong. I still wouldn't run white alone because while it's mechanics beefed up HEAVILY, it's still prone to its weaknesses to red, green, and black. Which is why I run one of those colors with white if I were to use white.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!